Is Donovan Mitchell still a superstar? Cuz AR does what he does but passes better

[QUOTE=Xiao Yao You;15040482]Ac probably their 4th best best player[/QUOTE]

i’m trying to remember what year that was. It was 90 or 91 I think. So no Kareem. Obviously magic and worthy. I’m sure Byron Scott was scoring a good bit more. I bet he was secretly salty he didn’t get that all star spot. when you think about it as absurd as both of them are it would Be more defensible to put Byron Scott over Clyde Drexler, than to put AC Green over prime Karl Malone. At least he was having his best season.

But I think his best year was like 88 or so. I just wish I could’ve heard whatever Karl told John Stockton before that 61 point game. I think he only played like 30 or 31 minutes too. He was just trying to make a point but I don’t think he ever admitted it.

[QUOTE]
Always the overachiever, Laker forward A.C. Green beat out Utah Jazz forward Karl Malone in fan balloting Thursday to join teammate James Worthy as the starting forwards for the Western Conference team in next month’s NBA All-Star game.
Malone, most valuable player of last year’s All-Star game and an All-NBA selection last season, was so upset by the perceived slight that he told NBA officials he will boycott the game. Coaches from each conference will select reserves on Jan. 30-31, but Malone told friends he will stay home.

Malone declined to speak with reporters, but he informed Jazz owner Larry Miller of his wishes.
“The only thing I said to him was, just wait and let it settle in and see how you feel,” Miller said. “You’re too good not to be there. Don’t decide on emotion.” Starters for the Feb. 11 game in Miami are determined by fan balloting in each NBA city. And Green, in a major upset, had 160,788 votes to Malone’s 159,562. The Lakers’ Magic Johnson, Utah’s John Stockton and the Houston Rockets’ Akeem Olajuwon will be the other Western Conference starters.
Based on statistics and reputation, Malone figured to be the logical choice for an all-star starting berth. Going into Thursday night’s game against the Knicks, Malone ranked second in the league in scoring with an average of 30.6 points a game, fifth in rebounding with an average of 11.1 and fourth in field-goal percentage at 58.4%.

Green is the Lakers’ fourth-leading scorer with a 14.4 average and the leading rebounder with a 9.6 average. He is shooting 49%. Green is coming off his best game of the season in the Lakers’ 120-111 victory over Indiana Wednesday night. He made 11 of 12 shots, scoring 24 points, and grabbed 11 rebounds.

[/QUOTE]


they ended up talking him into going, but he pretended he was too hurt to play. He just showed up and sat out. Claimed to be injured. Same guy who missed like eight games his entire career before that final season on the Lakers.

they probably should’ve done something about the fan vote right then, but it took Zaza almost making it on the Warriors 25 years laterto get the system changed.

Now I’m curious how close Jeremy Lin came.

The amount of people to average 34/10 assists over a 5 game stretch is likely a very short list in the last 10 years filled with the names you'd expect.

If Reaves was ONLY scoring 34 a game it would be one thing but the play making is what should make someone think he could be a #1 or #2 guy on a contender.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;15040484]i’m trying to remember what year that was. It was 90 or 91 I think. So no Kareem. Obviously magic and worthy. I’m sure Byron Scott was scoring a good bit more. I bet he was secretly salty he didn’t get that all star spot. when you think about it as absurd as both of them are it would Be more defensible to put Byron Scott over Clyde Drexler, than to put AC Green over prime Karl Malone. At least he was having his best season.[/QUOTE]

You know Scott was pissed that Ainge made the all-star that year as well, even though Ainge played in the east. Scott averaged more points than Worthy in '88, but had to watch the all-star game from home and watch Ainge perform. :oldlol:

I actually like Ainge more as a player though, a little more versatile than Scott.

Brunson averaged 26 and 7 in games without Luka during his career.

Seems like a pretty good indicator of what he winded up putting in as a #1 option.

Reaves has averaged 28/8 in games without Lebron during his career.

23/5/5 without AD last year.

Hes obviously going to do his thing if given the keys.

Chris Mullin and Tom Chambers should’ve been even more pissed off. They were both all nba and Tom was on a 55 win team. And when Lin was a rocket, he got more votes than Harden Westbrook or Steve Nash.

[QUOTE]

[TABLE="width: 376"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]1.[/TD]
[TD="class: left"][URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/worthja01.html"]James Worthy[/URL][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]163,053[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]2.[/TD]
[TD="class: left"][URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenac01.html"]A.C. Green[/URL][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]160,788[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]3.[/TD]
[TD="class: left"][URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01.html"]Karl Malone[/URL][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]159,562[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]4.[/TD]
[TD="class: left"][URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcdanxa01.html"]Xavier McDaniel[/URL][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]158,759[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]5.[/TD]
[TD="class: left"][URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/tripuke01.html"]Kelly Tripucka[/URL][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]77,832[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]6.[/TD]
[TD="class: left"][URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mullich01.html"]Chris Mullin[/URL][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]72,817[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]7.[/TD]
[TD="class: left"][URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mckeyde01.html"]Derrick McKey[/URL][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]67,430[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]8.[/TD]
[TD="class: left"][URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/baileth01.html"]Thurl Bailey[/URL][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]64,102[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]9.[/TD]
[TD="class: left"][URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambto01.html"]Tom Chambers[/URL][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]64,028[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]10.[/TD]
[TD="class: left"][URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mannida01.html"]Danny Manning[/URL][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]58,593[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Carbine;15040489]Brunson averaged 26 and 7 in games without Luka during his career.

Seems like a pretty good indicator of what he winded up putting in as a #1 option.[/QUOTE]

I’d say holding it down in the playoffs waiting for him to come back is what was indicative of what he could do especially because they knew Luka wasn’t out for good and they needed those games for Insurance. He won the Mavs games in the playoffs that the other team desperately wanted.

I’m wondering what we’re gonna see from Nesmith and Nembhard without Hali for the year.

They both looked like potential somebody’s when he was off a few times

[QUOTE=Carbine;15040487]The amount of people to average 34/10 assists over a 5 game stretch is likely a very short list in the last 10 years filled with the names you'd expect.

If Reaves was ONLY scoring 34 a game it would be one thing but the play making is what should make someone think he could be a #1 or #2 guy on a contender.[/QUOTE]


Offensively hes Jayson Tatum. There is nothing Tatum does offensively that Reaves doesnt.

Tatum is a much better defender, but in an era where you cant hound a guy, and half the time players are launching from 30 feet where defense is irrelevant, individual D just isnt as valuable a consideration. A four time DPOY is constant meme'd as being a traffic cone. The game has become about outscoring people.

So Tatum is slightly ahead of Reaves overall because of the defense, but the idea Tatum is some "mvp level first option" and Reaves is some role player on a nice run lately... these are outdated perceptions people are just too lazy to update mentally. The game has evolved quickly the last 6-7 years in terms of what matters and what doesnt and many people are just slow to adapt their understanding. Including management personnel within the league itself.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;15040493]I’d say holding it down in the playoffs waiting for him to come back is what was indicative of what he could do especially because they knew Luka wasn’t out for good and they needed those games for Insurance. He won the Mavs games in the playoffs that the other team desperately wanted.

I’m wondering what we’re gonna see from Nesmith and Nembhard without Hali for the year.

They both looked like potential somebody’s when he was off a few times[/QUOTE]


This is fair. We dont know what Reaves in his current form would do in the playoffs. He hasnt been a consistent performer to this point in the role hes been in. So it's a fair question. But I think if he were the "first option" for a full season going into the playoffs (which he wont be) hed likely be able to get numbers at least.

To be clear tho, I do NOT think he can be the clear best player on a title team when youre talkin about both sides of the ball and the whole package. But I also never thought Donovan Mitchell could. Others disagreed and to this point it looks like I was right.

He played two games as the 1st option (without LeBron, AD, or Luka) last season:

124-117 win vs. IND - 45 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals, 4 turnovers (14/26 FG (.538) 4/9 3PT (.444) 10/17 2PT (.588) 13/13 FT (1.000))

126-131 loss vs. DEN - 37 points, 8 rebounds, 13 assists, 4 steals, 4 turnovers (13/26 FG (.500) 4/10 3PT (.400) 9/16 2PT (.563) 7/7 FT (1.000))

Including those two games, he played [B]9 games as either the first or second option[/B]. Austin averaged [B]27.9 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 8.3 apg, 1.4 spg, 2.9 topg on 49.1% FG (19.2 fga/g), 42.5% 3PT (8.1 3pa/g), 90.9% FT (6.1 fta/g), 63.6% TS[/B].

Pretty nice numbers!

So, we've got [B]5 "first-option" games[/B] now - 2 from last season and 3 from this season. [B]40.4 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 10.0 apg, 2.8 spg, 4.2 topg on 50.8% FG (24.0 fga/g), 41.7% 3PT (9.6 3pa/g), 95.2% FT (12.6 fta/g), 68.4% TS[/B].

So, he's cooking for sure. Concerns are sample size, obviously. How good is he? Hard to say. However, his skill set gives me confidence that he's legit. Tight handle & pull-up game. He's always been a great foul drawer, rim finisher, and short mid-range shooter; the three-point shot came in 2022-23, and the playmaking in 2023-24. Always been super efficient (career 109 TS+).

His situation is way closer to 2011-12 James Harden in OKC than Darren Collison, Jeremy Lin, or any other names mentioned.

It's incredibly easy to say borderline top 10 player *so and so could never win a title as #1 guy*

Thats not something to brag about what so ever..... a large large majority of those guys never win a title.

Jalen Bruson will never win a title!!!

I'm not some expert calling something that has a 90 percent chance to hit. **** sakes.

[QUOTE=FultzNationRISE;15040495]This is fair. We dont know what Reaves in his current form would do in the playoffs. He hasnt been a consistent performer to this point in the role hes been in. So it's a fair question. But I think if he were the "first option" for a full season going into the playoffs (which he wont be) hed likely be able to get numbers at least.

To be clear tho, I do NOT think he can be the clear best player on a title team when youre talkin about both sides of the ball and the whole package. But I also never thought Donovan Mitchell could. Others disagreed and to this point it looks like I was right.[/QUOTE]


no, it just looks like you’re the kind of person who takes advantage of the fact that most great players never win to pretend all criticism is correct When they don’t. It’s entirely possible Jokic won’t win again. A simple twisted ankle that year could have him as a guy who never won. It’s entirely possible Luka never does. You can be legitimately goat level and lose 17 or 18 times. It’s conceivable.

Doesn’t make the people saying they can’t win correct. It only makes them feel correct. And the problem is when those people do it the people don’t simply say I was wrong. They try to twist it so the world was wrong to allow them to be incorrect. Like you saying Giannis can’t win then when he drops 50 to win a title you say he only won because they didn’t build a wall. You actually believe dedicating three or four people to crash down in front of the basket in a league with 300 shooters slowing down the guy trying to attack means he isn’t that great.

You watched him be guarded by a defensive player of the year with another defensive player of the year behind him and a guy who lead the league in blocks two or three times as the last line of defense with a very good defender in Siakam as the fourth person in this wall and determined it was a simple matter Anyone should be able to replicate and the failure to do so means you’re still right that he can’t win.

As if dedicating at least three people a possession to defend the paint against a guy who has had 20 assist games passing out against crashing help defenders is a simple decision. Unless the people around him have unbelievably bad shooting nights you’re just making it a three-point shooting drill. So teams don’t necessarily want to do that.

But every team not doing it….to you somehow proves your point.

It’s incredible the lengths people will go to to not be wrong. So it’s no surprise how tightly they grip onto anything that supposedly makes them right. And nothing makes somebody look more right than simply being critical of a tremendous number of people knowing the process of elimination is gonna make them 90% correct at the very least.

it’s the simplest of things being used by people trying to make themselves feel smarter than the average bear.

[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;15040498]He played two games as the 1st option (without LeBron, AD, or Luka) last season:

124-117 win vs. IND - 45 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals, 4 turnovers (14/26 FG (.538) 4/9 3PT (.444) 10/17 2PT (.588) 13/13 FT (1.000))

126-131 loss vs. DEN - 37 points, 8 rebounds, 13 assists, 4 steals, 4 turnovers (13/26 FG (.500) 4/10 3PT (.400) 9/16 2PT (.563) 7/7 FT (1.000))

Including those two games, he played [B]9 games as either the first or second option[/B]. Austin averaged [B]27.9 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 8.3 apg, 1.4 spg, 2.9 topg on 49.1% FG (19.2 fga/g), 42.5% 3PT (8.1 3pa/g), 90.9% FT (6.1 fta/g), 63.6% TS[/B].

Pretty nice numbers!

So, we've got [B]5 "first-option" games[/B] now - 2 from last season and 3 from this season. [B]40.4 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 10.0 apg, 2.8 spg, 4.2 topg on 50.8% FG (24.0 fga/g), 41.7% 3PT (9.6 3pa/g), 95.2% FT (12.6 fta/g), 68.4% TS[/B].

So, he's cooking for sure. Concerns are sample size, obviously. How good is he? Hard to say. However, his skill set gives me confidence that he's legit. Tight handle & pull-up game. He's always been a great foul drawer, rim finisher, and short mid-range shooter; the three-point shot came in 2022-23, and the playmaking in 2023-24. Always been super efficient (career 109 TS+).[/QUOTE]

The issue for him when hes not ball dominant is the same as with Luka, and Mitchell, and a bunch of other ball dominant guys. Hes not an impact off-ball player. He's not a rim running threat, hes a decent spot up shooter but I wouldnt say knockdown. And hes not a defensive plus. So he really has to have the ball to be valuable. But in that specific role... yeah, hes pretty damn good.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;15040502]no, it just looks like you’re the kind of person who takes advantage of the fact that most great players never win to pretend all criticism is correct When they don’t. It’s entirely possible Jokic won’t win again. A simple twisted ankle that year could have him as a guy who never won. It’s entirely possible Luka never does. You can be legitimately goat level and lose 17 or 18 times. It’s conceivable.

Doesn’t make the people saying they can’t win correct. It only makes them feel correct. And the problem is when those people do it the people don’t simply say I was wrong. They try to twist it so the world was wrong to allow them to be incorrect. Like you saying Giannis can’t win then when he drops 50 to win a title you say he only won because they didn’t build a wall. You actually believe dedicating three or four people to crash down in front of the basket in a league with 300 shooters slowing down the guy trying to attack means he isn’t that great.

You watched him be guarded by a defensive player of the year with another defensive player of the year behind him and a guy who lead the league in blocks two or three times as the last line of defense with a very good defender in Siakam as the fourth person in this wall and determined it was a simple matter Anyone should be able to replicate and the failure to do so means you’re still right that he can’t win.

As if dedicating at least three people a possession to defend the paint against a guy who has had 20 assist games passing out against crashing help defenders is a simple decision. Unless the people around him have unbelievably bad shooting nights you’re just making it a three-point shooting drill. So teams don’t necessarily want to do that.

But every team not doing it….to you somehow proves your point.

It’s incredible the lengths people will go to to not be wrong. So it’s no surprise how tightly they grip onto anything that supposedly makes them right. And nothing makes somebody look more right than simply being critical of a tremendous number of people knowing the process of elimination is gonna make them 90% correct at the very least.

it’s the simplest of things being used by people trying to make themselves feel smarter than the average bear.[/QUOTE]


I mean certainly when I said "could not" or "never" theres some implied hyperbole. What I mean is theyre not high on the list youd expect it from. Theres enough players ahead of them who would all have to have bad luck for a team that's riding Mitchell or Reaves to win a title. Is it possible? Sure. But not as perennially likely as a Lebron, Joker, and then to a slightly lesser extent SGA, Luka, Giannis, prime Steph or KD, then to a little bit lesser extent than that Tatum, Ant.

But yeah of course it's not impossible. I understand that.