Phil Jackson: Rodman is the greatest athlete I've ever coached

[QUOTE=Heretik32]Surprised the heck out of me too when I read that. Apparently Sheed could tell you every movement for every player on every set play in Detroit's play book... and that was back when that play book had the size of the bible.[/QUOTE]
It is crazy how he knows that. But it just gives him more ammo to work with. I just wish that he would use it more.

Jordan is the best pure athlete Jackson's ever coached while Shaq is the most imposing force. Basically, it's a tossup between those two. Given Shaq's size though, you might as well give him the edge.

[QUOTE=Kebab Stall]I know his IQ isn't in the league of Bird and MJ, that's why I said that his IQ is unmatched by few. There is only a few guys that have a better IQ than Rodman, obviously MJ, Bird, Magic, et cetera are the few that are above Rodman.

Just because Rodman doesn't do everything on the court, doesn't mean he doesn't know what to do. He does his job, because that's what he wanted to do and not many people wanted to take the role of the guy who wanted to get dirty.

An example of this would be Rasheed Wallace. I read something not too long ago (it might have been on here) that said he knows every play from every position. But, does he play every play from every position? No, he just knows how to. He knows exactly where everybody should be and exactly what they should be doing. That constitutes a part of his basketball IQ. I'm sure Rodman was to something like that with the Pistons, Spurs and/or Bulls.

Also, Rodman claimed to watch tapes of his teammates shots, so that he knew roughly the paterns of their rebounds. Now, we all know that when a person shoots from the right side of the basket, the ball is more than likely going to rebound off to the left side of the basket, but do we know how high or how far? No, that is something you just have to assume when you go for a rebound. Rodman watched tapes of his teammate shooting, so that he would know how high the ball rebounded and how far out the ball rebounded, giving him a much easier time on the boards. This alone doesn't make Rodman a great basketball mind, but it sure as hell makes up a part of his basketball mind, which was great.[/QUOTE]
Like I said, an average NBA player already has great bball mind compared to common baller. What makes Rodman different (bball iq wise) than Bowen (who also studied his opponent), Sheed, Billups, Sasha (hell, he know his role too), and the rest? Only a few guys made it from average to great. Guys like those I listed, MJ, Bird, etc.

[QUOTE=Mathius]

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.
[/QUOTE]



I do agree Rodman is an amazing athlete. (I believe he has a higher vertical than Jordan and Pip)

But there is more to being a bball player than just athletism. And it's silly of you to think Rodman could have surpassed Jordan as an offensive player just if he put in the effort. Jordan proved from 96 on his greatness wasn't based on athletism. It was 100% skill.

[QUOTE=iamgine]Like I said, an average NBA player already has great bball mind compared to common baller. What makes Rodman different (bball iq wise) than Bowen (who also studied his opponent), Sheed, Billups, Sasha (hell, he know his role too), and the rest? Only a few guys made it from average to great. Guys like those I listed, MJ, Bird, etc.[/QUOTE]
Yes, NBA players do have a very good to great knowledge of the game compared to your average baller, but Rodman had a better knowledge of the game than those guys. MJ, Bird, Magic, etc. had an even better knowledge.

There's a difference between, knowing your role and just flat out knowing the game of basketball. Rodman knew the game of basketball. To me, someone like Sasha V. only knows his role. Sure, he probably has a great IQ compared just anyone, but compared to someone like Rodman? He isn't that bright.

[QUOTE=Kebab Stall]Yes, NBA players do have a very good to great knowledge of the game compared to your average baller, but[B] Rodman had a better knowledge of the game than those guys[/B]. MJ, Bird, Magic, etc. had an even better knowledge.

There's a difference between, knowing your role and just flat out knowing the game of basketball. Rodman knew the game of basketball. To me, someone like Sasha V. only knows his role. Sure, he probably has a great IQ compared just anyone, but compared to someone like Rodman? He isn't that bright.[/QUOTE]
nah he has none of the vision & knowledge the greats have. only on rebounds maybe, but that's more instinctive. certainly not on offense nor defense. He's a great defender due to his athleticism but he cannot coordinate the team defense. He had freaky athleticism and willingness to sacrifice, pretty deadly combination nonetheless.

[QUOTE=iamgine]nah he has none of the vision & knowledge the greats have. only on rebounds maybe, but that's more instinctive. certainly not on offense nor defense. He's a great defender due to his athleticism but he cannot coordinate the team defense. He had freaky athleticism and willingness to sacrifice, pretty deadly combination nonetheless.[/QUOTE]
Rodman's knowledge is matched by almost no one in today's NBA. Only guys such as MJ, Bird, Magic, etc. have better knowledge of the game. I can't think of anyone in today's NBA that ranks anywhere near Rodman in terms of knowledge of the game, Duncan is the only guy that comes to me straight away, other than that I can't think of many guys. Maybe Rasheed?

[QUOTE=eliteballer]I wouldn't bet against Rodman beating Jordan in a weightlifting or speed contest. He was also very coordinated for his size.[/QUOTE]

one thing i know about MJ:
i have game 1 of the 1992 nba finals on DVD and in the pre-game Ahmad Rashad says how he weight lifted with MJ hours before the game and MJ was benching 265 lbs. im sure he could push 300 on off-days. jordan was also one of the only players to actually lift before games. you ever try doing a full work out of lifting weights and then simply just shooting baskets? that is HARD!

[QUOTE=iamgine]You do know that basketball isn't all about rebounds and his basketball IQ was just average if not below. Not like Pippen, Bird or MJ who had great Bball IQ. While it's true that he had a knack for where rebounds went, he also used his freak athleticism to get the rebounds.[/QUOTE]

for anyone saying dennis rodman did not have a great basketball IQ... that is one of the dumbest statements I have ever heard. dude couldn't score but he knew what he had to do in his role, knew how to get the ball, knew how to make the right pass, etc. dude was only as great as he was cause of his bball iq. he was also arguably the best player EVER at getting under people's skin. watch the 1990 eastern conference finals and see how he throws pippen's game off, the 1996 finals how he single handidly made frank brikowski explode, causing a huge distraction to the sonics, and see him against malone in 97 and 98. he had the great knowledge to know that one way to win was to get underneath the skin of opponents. why do you think larry bird and michael jordan trash talked so many people? to prove that they were better? no- it was obvious that they were. they did it to throw people off their game. it seems simple enough, but not a lot of people play those mental games with the same degree of success as mj, bird, rodman, and reggie miller too.

also, not in terms of his IQ- but Rodman was one of 3 players ever, in my opinion to really be effective in guarding magic johnson. dennis johnson totally threw him off in 1984, rodman played him very effectivley in 1988 and 1989, and the turning point after the game 1 loss in the 1991 finals by the bulls was putting pippen on magic starting in game 2. pippen harassed the crap ouf of magic in games 2 through 5- same as dj and dennis.

dennis may not be the best or the most athletic ever but he sure was no dummy. excellent basketball iq.

[QUOTE=gotbacon23]one thing i know about MJ:
i have game 1 of the 1992 nba finals on DVD and in the pre-game Ahmad Rashad says how he weight lifted with MJ hours before the game and MJ was benching 265 lbs. im sure he could push 300 on off-days. jordan was also one of the only players to actually lift before games. you ever try doing a full work out of lifting weights and then simply just shooting baskets? that is HARD![/QUOTE]
I've tried it before and it feels wierd. When I tried it, the ball felt light, but heavy at the same time. When you go to shoot, you just have no juice in your arms and feels like your pushing up a rock.

[QUOTE=Kebab Stall]I've tried it before and it feels wierd. When I tried it, the ball felt light, but heavy at the same time. When you go to shoot, you just have no juice in your arms and feels like your pushing up a rock.[/QUOTE]

i am an airball machine from three point range after lifting weights. if you lift any significant weight it feels like you are shooting with a medicine ball.

[QUOTE=gotbacon23]i am an airball machine from three point range after lifting weights. if you lift any significant weight it feels like you are shooting with a medicine ball.[/QUOTE]
I airball my free throws after lifting. Hell, even getting a drink after lifting can feel like hard work.

I'm still dumbfounded as to how anyone can think that Rodman is a better athlete than guys like Jordan or Shaq. If that's true, then he should be able to do most of the things Jordan could do physically. He can't.

I mean, I've read in this topic that he's just as fast, can jump just as high if not higher, and has "great body control." If all that's true, then why couldn't Dennis do the dunk seen at the 2:54-2:58 mark here:


[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwyqE22CSyM[/url]

...or hundreds of other such moves/plays. Could it be....oh, I don't know...[i]because he wasn't as good an athlete[/i]? :confusedshrug: All you need for that dunk is leaping ability, speed (to cover the distance), and body control (to contort your body). If Dennis was as good or better than Jordan in all of those areas, it stands to reason that he would be able to do things like that. Not only could he [b]not[/b] do them, but we can't even mentally conceive of him doing them. There's a reason for that.

[QUOTE=Loki]I'm still dumbfounded as to how anyone can think that Rodman is a better athlete than guys like Jordan or Shaq. If that's true, then he should be able to do most of the things Jordan could do physically. He can't.

I mean, I've read in this topic that he's just as fast, can jump just as high if not higher, and has "great body control." If all that's true, then why couldn't Dennis do the dunk seen at the 2:54-2:58 mark here:


[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwyqE22CSyM[/url]

...or hundreds of other such moves/plays. Could it be....oh, I don't know...[i]because he wasn't as good an athlete[/i]? :confusedshrug: All you need for that dunk is leaping ability, speed (to cover the distance), and body control (to contort your body). If Dennis was as good or better than Jordan in all of those areas, it stands to reason that he would be able to do things like that. Not only could he [b]not[/b] do them, but we can't even mentally conceive of him doing them. There's a reason for that.[/QUOTE]

you are definitley right- jordan's amazing body control- especially in mid-air, shows his athleticism as being superior to rodmans. i just started the form to basically make a point that rodman is very underrated as an athlete, not the best athlete. i think jordan is a better one along with some other guys.

[QUOTE=gotbacon23]you are definitley right- jordan's amazing body control- especially in mid-air, shows his athleticism as being superior to rodmans. i just started the form to basically make a point that rodman is very underrated as an athlete, not the best athlete. i think jordan is a better one along with some other guys.[/QUOTE]

I know. I've already said that Rodman is a great athlete. But it's not just body control that sets Jordan apart. I doubt Rodman could even dunk it with two hands simply from that distance, but all he'd need to do it are Jordan's speed and vertical. And since I've heard here that Rodman is just as fast if not faster, and is just as good a leaper, it makes you wonder why he couldn't do so.

That's a rhetorical question, in case you didn't get it. ;)

[QUOTE=EricForman]I do agree Rodman is an amazing athlete. (I believe he has a higher vertical than Jordan and Pip)

But there is more to being a bball player than just athletism. And it's silly of you to think Rodman could have surpassed Jordan as an offensive player just if he put in the effort. Jordan proved from 96 on his greatness wasn't based on athletism. It was 100% skill.[/QUOTE]


That's not true. That's not true at all. Lots of people have the same amount of skill as Jordan. Jordan dominated because he was so much more mentally focused than his opponents. He could turn it on just because someone pissed him off.

Rodman had that same intensity and that same mental focus. He focused it differently. Rodman could get into an opponents head like no one I've ever seen play the game (defensively).

Mathius

[QUOTE=Loki]I'm still dumbfounded as to how anyone can think that Rodman is a better athlete than guys like Jordan or Shaq. If that's true, then he should be able to do most of the things Jordan could do physically. He can't.

I mean, I've read in this topic that he's just as fast, can jump just as high if not higher, and has "great body control." If all that's true, then why couldn't Dennis do the dunk seen at the 2:54-2:58 mark here:


[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwyqE22CSyM[/url]

...or hundreds of other such moves/plays. Could it be....oh, I don't know...[i]because he wasn't as good an athlete[/i]? :confusedshrug: All you need for that dunk is leaping ability, speed (to cover the distance), and body control (to contort your body). If Dennis was as good or better than Jordan in all of those areas, it stands to reason that he would be able to do things like that. Not only could he [b]not[/b] do them, but we can't even mentally conceive of him doing them. There's a reason for that.[/QUOTE]
i dont think this is a fair example. for one thing, players like dr. J, jordan and connie hawkins had huge hands. second the dunks players are doing today own the dunks of the past. and im a history buff who loved the dunk contest of old. and i would not say that players today are more athletic than a jordan because they dunk better than him.

second, unless youve seen jordan race rodman or have 40 times i dont think you can say that he faster.

third, do you know how quick you have to be in order to out jump or continuously outjump an opponent that is probably 2-5 inches taller and is an athlete in their own right?

fourth, while i feel that jordan was a sensational athlete, i think rodman faired better guarding smaller guards than jordan guarding center. and rodman defened the best at all positions. which is a sign of another athletic endeavor.

let me point out something else. it seems to me that people are using jordans offense as a sign that he was a better athlete than rodman.

let me ask a question, what do charles barkley, shaq oneal, eddy curry, and kevin duckworth have in common? they were good offensive players and had or have a rep. for doggin it on defense. why? because they all were fat.

so please dont use offense as a basis for one being one of the greatest athletes.

not to mention. in football, your best athletes are cornerbacks (defense)
in baseball the best athletes are in the outfield and not the power hitters
are we making a connection here.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]i dont think this is a fair example. for one thing, players like dr. J, jordan and connie hawkins had huge hands. second the dunks players are doing today own the dunks of the past. and im a history buff who loved the dunk contest of old. and i would not say that players today are more athletic than a jordan because they dunk better than him.

second, unless youve seen jordan race rodman or have 40 times i dont think you can say that he faster.

third, do you know how quick you have to be in order to out jump or continuously outjump an opponent that is probably 2-5 inches taller and is an athlete in their own right?

fourth, while i feel that jordan was a sensational athlete, i think rodman faired better guarding smaller guards than jordan guarding center. and rodman defened the best at all positions. which is a sign of another athletic endeavor.[/QUOTE]

This is all basically bullsh!t. Sorry.

Rodman isn't nearly the athlete Jordan was. It has nothing to do with hand size. If, as has been said in this topic, Rodman is as fast or faster, has as good or better a vertical leap, and elite body control, he should be able to do that Jordan dunk and many other plays of his. The fact that he not only [b]didn't[/b] do them, but that we [b]can't even concieve of him doing them[/b] is an indictment of this ridiculous stance that Rodman > Jordan as an athlete.

Like I said, Rodman couldn't even do a simple two-handed dunk (no contortion) from where Jordan did it. So basically, this is all nonsense.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]let me point out something else. it seems to me that people are using jordans offense as a sign that he was a better athlete than rodman.

let me ask a question, what do charles barkley, shaq oneal, eddy curry, and kevin duckworth have in common? they were good offensive players and had or have a rep. for doggin it on defense. why? because they all were fat.

so please dont use offense as a basis for one being one of the greatest athletes.

not to mention. in football, your best athletes are cornerbacks (defense)
in baseball the best athletes are in the outfield and not the power hitters
are we making a connection here.[/QUOTE]

More bullsh!t. Just keep yapping and making no sense. :oldlol: It's not offense I'm judging him on, it's his (in)ability to make athletic plays on the level he should be able to if he were truly the cream of the crop.

I believe there must be a reason for Phil to say it that way...

[QUOTE=Kiddlovesnets]I believe there must be a reason for Phil to say it that way...[/QUOTE]

Yeah, to avoid controversy and perhaps impart a message to his audience about tenacity and dedication, since Rodman's athleticism largely embodied that since he was a fitness freak. It's easier for someone to aspire to be a Rodman-level athlete than a Jordan-level athlete, because Jordan's gifts are largely innate.

[quote=Loki]Yeah, to avoid controversy and perhaps impart a message to his audience about tenacity and dedication, since Rodman's athleticism largely embodied that since he was a fitness freak. It's easier for someone to aspire to be a Rodman-level athlete than a Jordan-level athlete, because Jordan's gifts are largely innate.[/quote]

Or a Shaq-level athlete.

[QUOTE=Godfather]Or a Shaq-level athlete.[/QUOTE]

I personally believe that Rodman isn't even the 4th best athlete Jackson has ever coached (MJ/Shaq/Kobe/Pippen/Grant are all ahead of him imo). I'm just trying to make a point.

[quote=Loki]I personally believe that Rodman isn't even the 4th best athlete Jackson has ever coached (MJ/Shaq/Kobe/Pippen/Grant are all ahead of him imo). I'm just trying to make a point.[/quote]
Just a little off topic here, but who do you believe was a superior athlete MJ or Shaq?

[COLOR=White]And lol you said something nice about Kobe...[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Godfather]Just a little off topic here, but who do you believe was a superior athlete MJ or Shaq?
[/QUOTE]

If you consider size part of athleticism, then Shaq.

And yeah, I think Kobe is (or at least was) more athletic than Rodman, but at the very least Rodman is not more athletic than MJ and Shaq.

[QUOTE=Loki]This is all basically bullsh!t. Sorry.

Rodman isn't nearly the athlete Jordan was. It has nothing to do with hand size. If, as has been said in this topic, Rodman is as fast or faster, has as good or better a vertical leap, and elite body control, he should be able to do that Jordan dunk and many other plays of his. The fact that he not only [b]didn't[/b] do them, but that we [b]can't even concieve of him doing them[/b] is an indictment of this ridiculous stance that Rodman > Jordan as an athlete.

Like I said, Rodman couldn't even do a simple two-handed dunk (no contortion) from where Jordan did it. So basically, this is all nonsense.[/QUOTE]
the reason why most people cant glide from the ft line is not because of their hangtime, it because you must palm the ball in order to be able to tourque your body and still control it. not solely because of hangtime. and in order to be able to contort your body and still control the ball, you have to have big hands. you should know that.

[QUOTE=Loki]More bullsh!t. Just keep yapping and making no sense. :oldlol: It's not offense I'm judging him on, it's his (in)ability to make athletic plays on the level he should be able to if he were truly the cream of the crop.[/QUOTE]

you say its not offense and yet i believe in every one of your posts you use either a dunk, an acrobatic move to the basket, or a dribble in order to try to prove your point. stop contradicting yourself rook.

[quote=97 bulls]you say its not offense and yet i believe in every one of your posts you use either a dunk, an acrobatic move to the basket, or a dribble in order to try to prove your point. stop contradicting yourself rook.[/quote]

lol @ you calling Loki a rook...You have just induced paragraphs of intelligent rebuttal.

[QUOTE=Loki]This is all basically bullsh!t. Sorry.

Rodman isn't nearly the athlete Jordan was. It has nothing to do with hand size. If, as has been said in this topic, Rodman is as fast or faster, has as good or better a vertical leap, and elite body control, he should be able to do that Jordan dunk and many other plays of his. The fact that he not only [b]didn't[/b] do them, but that we [b]can't even concieve of him doing them[/b] is an indictment of this ridiculous stance that Rodman > Jordan as an athlete.

Like I said, Rodman couldn't even do a simple two-handed dunk (no contortion) from where Jordan did it. So basically, this is all nonsense.[/QUOTE]
first im not saying that rodan is a better athlete than jordan. but i really dont see a difference. jordan had all the physical tools to be a great basketball player. theres track and field athletes that cant do what jordan does on a basketball court are you gonna say jordan is a better athlete because of that? hell bo jackson is light years ahead of jordan as an athlete and he said he couldnt play basketball. your reasoning is assinine.

[QUOTE=Godfather]lol @ you calling Loki a rook...You have just induced paragraphs of intelligent rebuttal.[/QUOTE]
get of his nuts ill call anybody i want a rookie if they making rookie mistakes:pimp:

[QUOTE=97 bulls]the reason why most people cant glide from the ft line is not because of their hangtime, it because you must palm the ball in order to be able to tourque your body and still control it.[/QUOTE]

Funniest line I've read all day. :roll:

[QUOTE=97 bulls]the reason why most people cant glide from the ft line is not because of their hangtime, it because you must palm the ball in order to be able to tourque your body and still control it. not solely because of hangtime. and in order to be able to contort your body and still control the ball, you have to have big hands. you should know that.[/QUOTE]

I'm talking about a simple two-handed dunk from where Jordan took off from in the video I posted -- not even one where he contorts his body like Jordan did. You don't need to be able to palm the ball to do that. Rodman probably couldn't even do a one-handed dunk from that distance.

[quote]
you say its not offense and yet i believe in every one of your posts you use either a dunk, an acrobatic move to the basket, or a dribble in order to try to prove your point. stop contradicting yourself rook.[/quote]

Tell me something that displays athleticism, then. And [b]elite[/b] athleticism. What, jumping quickly multiple times for a rebound? Sorry, but no. He didn't get off the ground any faster on his initial or second jumps than lots of other players. What he had was a nose for the ball and sheer desire and energy. Rodman also wasn't a guy who snatched rebounds high over trees very often, so I'm not sure where you got that from.


It's amazing that somebody can be this dense. Point blank: anyone who thinks that Rodman is an equal athlete to Jordan or Shaq (much less better) is deluding themselves. Show me Rodman catching an alley-oop with his entire hand above the square -- oh wait, that's "offense" too. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Chalkmaze]Funniest line I've read all day. :roll:[/QUOTE]
let me rephrase it for people that need to be spoon fed. for those players that have the ability to jump that far you also need to be able to hold the ball in your hand. otherwise its not a dunk. theres plenty of players that can get there just not with the ball.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]theres track and field athletes that cant do what jordan does on a basketball court are you gonna say jordan is a better athlete because of that?[/QUOTE]

More nonsense. Any professional long or high-jumper 6'3" or better can dunk from where Jordan did. Rodman can't. Any professional sprinter can outrun Jordan on the court; Rodman couldn't.

Keep throwing out non-sequiturs, though. It seems that's all you're good for.

[QUOTE=Loki]I'm talking about a simple two-handed dunk from where Jordan took off from in the video I posted -- not even one where he contorts his body like Jordan did. You don't need to be able to palm the ball to do that. Rodman probably couldn't even do a one-handed dunk from that distance.



Tell me something that displays athleticism, then. And [b]elite[/b] athleticism. What, jumping quickly multiple times for a rebound? Sorry, but no. He didn't get off the ground any faster on his initial or second jumps than lots of other players. What he had was a nose for the ball and sheer desire and energy. Rodman also wasn't a guy who snatched rebounds high over trees very often, so I'm not sure where you got that from.


It's amazing that somebody can be this dense. Point blank: anyone who thinks that Rodman is an equal athlete to Jordan or Shaq (much less better) is deluding themselves. Show me Rodman catching an alley-oop with his entire hand above the square -- oh wait, that's "offense" too. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
lol your right you just used another offensive play as your argument. (and people wonder why im calling you a rookie) just because a guy can dunk better doesnt mean he a better athlete.

let me ask you a question loki. who came first jordan or GOD. or maybe your an atheist. well you cant be an atheist because you worship jordan.

[QUOTE=Loki]More nonsense. Any professional long or high-jumper 6'3" or better can dunk from where Jordan did. Rodman can't. Any professional sprinter can outrun Jordan on the court; Rodman couldn't.

Keep throwing out non-sequiturs, though. It seems that's all you're good for.[/QUOTE]
where did i say "dunk"? and once again please post jordans and rodmans 40 time cuz i cant find them or a race between the two

[QUOTE=97 bulls]lol your right you just used another offensive play as your argument. [/QUOTE]

Yeah, an offensive play that takes absolutely no skill. If Rodman was an elite athlete, I'm sure that ONE TIME in a 13 year career he would have caught an alley-oop from way up. But he didn't. Funny how that works, huh.

B..b..but he jumped 4 times consecutively for a rebound! OMG GOAT ATHLETE !!!!!11one :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=97 bulls]where did i say "dunk"?[/QUOTE]

You're just obtuse and obstinate. I'm done. Enjoy your delusions.

directly the interview, pj defines "athleticism" as:

[I] “He could probably play a 48-minute game and play the 48th minute stronger than the first minute of the game,” Jackson told the crowd at UND. “He was that terrific an athlete.”[/I]

so, could this be interpreted as the ability to play stronger at the end of a game when everyone else is spent?

i was always amazed at rodman's ability to stop the best players and throw them off their game. he was the one guy that gave magic fits because of his combined length, quickness and strength. dennis was an extremely heady player on the court