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[QUOTE=miles berg]Bird wasn't even remotely close to being as athletic as Dirk.[/QUOTE]
Bird is more athletic than Dirk. Quicker, far better body control, far better hand/eye coordination, even a better leaper (though neither was elite in that regard).
EDIT: Bird couldn't create his own shot as well as Dirk? :oldlol: What's next, you gonna tell me Dirk's court vision is comparable too? :oldlol:
No, he wasn't loki. You gotta realize that 1993 is over man. I really enjoy your rants sometimes but you live so far in the past I doubt you can even see the future.
I mean that in a nice way. You gotta get over the past, it isn't like the game today at all. It is 10x's faster, quicker, and more athletic today with better players, athletes, doctors, trainers, and a far better coaching pedigree available to kids starting at the age of 4 and lasting until they retire in their 30s or 40s.
Eh I cant side Dirk creating his own shot better than Bird. You may not think Bird from the past would be as great in todays game. But I just cant see Bird not getting Dallas the NBA title vs Miami or getting upsetted by GSW. I dont see how Bird back in his day placed in the first round series vs GSW doesnt abuse the same players who Dirk struggled to own/back down.
I agree todays plays may be bigger, faster and what not. But that doesnt mean thier skills evolved out of thin air. Thats what this game really is. Skills and the mental ability to figure out this game, your opponents and come up big. Lots of guys in todays league get by on athletic ability and not skill.
I dont see how skill and bball smarts cant overcome/outdue the "athlete" of today. Teams play alot of zones because everyone cant shoot. Bird and shooting were synomous with one another. And alot of times people think thats all Bird was. A superior shooter when he excelled in other areas. I just dont see how Bird couldnt handle todays game nor do I see Dirk being better.
Being fast, bigger, stronger, with cartoon hops is great but if you cant come off a screen and knock down a jumper. How much is that worth? Eh, dunno man.
[url]http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=wEaNwJPssEs[/url]
:cheers:
[QUOTE=miles berg]Bird couldn't drive as well as Dirk nor create his own shot as well as Dirk.
Again, you guys kill me that live in the past. You are like the grandparents that tell their grandkids how much easier they have it now compared to 30 years ago.[/QUOTE]
:no:
[B]Our Grandparents had it harder (no internet, many hald to walk to their jobs far distances etc) actually not to mention that in todays game there nis No Handchecking, No Real Fouls Called, 3 Second Rule, 5 Second Back the Basket Rule, Less Fundamentals, Less B.Ball IQ, Less Passing Game etc[/B]
Love your post
[QUOTE=miles berg]No, he wasn't loki. You gotta realize that 1993 is over man. I really enjoy your rants sometimes but you live so far in the past I doubt you can even see the future.
I mean that in a nice way. You gotta get over the past, it isn't like the game today at all. It is 10x's faster, quicker, and more athletic today with better players, athletes, doctors, trainers, and a far better coaching pedigree available to kids starting at the age of 4 and lasting until they retire in their 30s or 40s.[/QUOTE]
I`m german, and even I have to admit that Bird is the superior player.
I agree that Dirk might be more athletic (but not by much, Bird`s athleticism pre-injury is extremely underrated), but Bird was the better defender, better passer, had a superior court vision, maybe the most clutch player ever, and even his shot, Dirk`s staple, was better than Nowitzki`s.
Dirk is a great player, top 10 in the league, one of the most unique players ever, but a Larry Bird he is not. Bird would be the most dominant player in the league today, imo...
[url]http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=xvs74__JpAU[/url]
:cheers:
What the **** are you trying to prove?
[QUOTE=AItheAnswer3]What the **** are you trying to prove?[/QUOTE]
[B]I have nothing to prove. Enjoy the Game Highlights :violin: [/B]
[QUOTE=KENNER SLU]Love your post[/QUOTE]
:cheers:
[QUOTE=miles berg]No, he wasn't loki. You gotta realize that 1993 is over man. I really enjoy your rants sometimes but you live so far in the past I doubt you can even see the future.[/quote]
Dude, look at videos of Bird. Dirk doesn't even approach Bird's general quickness. I'm talking on foot-fakes, ball fakes, and first step.
Seriously, most people can see this. I'm talking '81-'86 Bird here, btw.
[quote]I mean that in a nice way. You gotta get over the past, it isn't like the game today at all. It is 10x's faster, quicker, and more athletic today with better players, athletes, doctors, trainers, and a far better coaching pedigree available to kids starting at the age of 4 and lasting until they retire in their 30s or 40s.[/QUOTE]
Bird was averaging 20/10/7 in 1992 at age 35 with crippling back and neck injuries. The game hasn't changed so much from 1992, sorry. A player of Bird's ability and skill is timeless. He'd be a 25/9/6 player [i]at a minimum[/i] today.
I still can't believe you think Dirk is better able to create shots than Larry Bird. :oldlol: Man...Bird is one of the 3 most skilled offensive players [b]ever[/b] imo. I know for sh!t sure that he wouldn't get shut down like Dirk's been several times by (significantly) smaller opponents. His footwork was significantly better, his off the ball movement was WORLDS better, he was a better offensive rebounder, better finisher, comparable/better shooter, far better post player, and had a better handle.
I prefer this one.
[url]http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=7zk1vWGxEXo&feature=related[/url]
The jumpshot that Larry takes at 3:06 is the cleanest jumpshot I've ever seen.
[url]http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=zAOx36A48wU[/url]
:applause:
[url]http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=NTqDdZz2dHM[/url]
:applause:
[QUOTE=Loki]Dude, look at videos of Bird. Dirk doesn't even approach Bird's general quickness. I'm talking on foot-fakes, ball fakes, and first step.
Seriously, most people can see this. I'm talking '81-'86 Bird here, btw.
Bird was averaging 20/10/7 in 1992 at age 35 with crippling back and neck injuries. The game hasn't changed so much from 1992, sorry. A player of Bird's ability and skill is timeless. [B][COLOR="Blue"] He'd be a 25/9/6 player [i]at a minimum today[/i][/COLOR][/B]I still can't believe you think Dirk is better able to create shots than Larry Bird. :oldlol: Man...Bird is one of the 3 most skilled offensive players [b]ever[/b] imo. I know for sh!t sure that he wouldn't get shut down like Dirk's been several times by (significantly) smaller opponents. His footwork was significantly better, his off the ball movement was WORLDS better, he was a better offensive rebounder, better finisher, comparable/better shooter, far better post player, and had a better handle.[/QUOTE]
He'd be a 25/9/6 player [i]at a minimum[/i] today.
:no:
[B]He id be 25/9/6 player between ages 31-35 on...
At ages 22 to 30 Bird would be a 28-30/10-12/ 7-9 player and under todays rules & lack of fundamentals... some 2-3 years above that.[/B]
[QUOTE=pete's montreux]I prefer this one.
[url]http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=7zk1vWGxEXo&feature=related[/url]
The jumpshot that Larry takes at 3:06 is the cleanest jumpshot I've ever seen.[/QUOTE]
[B]By the way Pierce is a player that reminds me of the Old School Players :applause: he is like a Bigger version of DJ at SF[/B]
[QUOTE=Sir Charles]He'd be a 25/9/6 player [i]at a minimum[/i] today.
:no:
[B]He id be 25/9/6 player between ages 31-35 on...
At ages 22 to 30 Bird would be a 28-30/10-12/ 7-9 player and under todays rules & lack of fundamentals... some 2-3 years above that.[/B][/QUOTE]
Do you know what "at a minimum" means? It's the worst case scenario.
[QUOTE=Loki]Do you know what "at a minimum" means? It's the worst case scenario.[/QUOTE]
:applause: :roll: :ohwell:
[B]Bird Would School the NBA filled with thugs that can jump cool but don`t know how to think, playr and lack fundamentals[/B]
[QUOTE=Loki]Do you know what "at a minimum" means? It's the worst case scenario.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
He's a moron. What do you expect
sir charles you forgot one thing if bird play in this era he would be 2x as strong as charles barkley
[QUOTE=inclinerator]sir charles you forgot one thing if bird play in this era he would be 2x as strong as charles barkley[/QUOTE]
???
[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]I have nothing to prove. Enjoy the Game Highlights :violin: [/B][/QUOTE]
agreed upload more.MJ and bird in there prime:cheers:
[quote=TmacsRockets]How close or far apart would Lebron, CP3, Duncan be in comparison to Bird?[/quote]
He would be in the good player gap of today's game, not the great. Larry Bird is not physically gifted enough to compare with today's players. He would however get a fraction (a strong fraction) of his points, assists, and rebounds through pure fundamentals. On the defensive end however Bird would be a crutch to a team today, due to his lack of athletic ability.
(and about Bird being comparable to Dirk...Since when was Larry Bird 7'0''?)
[QUOTE=Godfather]He would be in the good player gap of today's game, not the great. Larry Bird is not physically gifted enough to compare with today's players. He would however get a fraction (a strong fraction) of his points, assists, and rebounds through pure fundamentals. On the defensive end however Bird would be a crutch to a team today, due to his lack of athletic ability.
(and about Bird being comparable to Dirk...Since when was Larry Bird 7'0''?)[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:
[quote=Loki]:oldlol:[/quote]
Tell me Larry Bird compares to the athletes of today...He is an improved Mike Dunleavy in today's game.
[QUOTE=Loki]:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Defenders are better today.
I can use your theory on todays game to prove it to you. You said that todays game has rules in place to help the offensive player, and players are being held to lower scores then they were in the 80's and 90's. So even with increased rules to help the offensive player, defensive players are still finding a way to stop baskets and keep scores lower then that of the 80's and 90's. It is due to players being more athletic, faster movement, and better awareness.
So you can't have it both ways Loki, either defense has improved in this era, or offense has improved.
[QUOTE]No, he wasn't loki. You gotta realize that 1993 is over man. I really enjoy your rants sometimes but you live so far in the past I doubt you can even see the future.
I mean that in a nice way. You gotta get over the past, it isn't like the game today at all. It is 10x's faster, quicker, and more athletic today with better players, athletes, doctors, trainers, and a far better coaching pedigree available to kids starting at the age of 4 and lasting until they retire in their 30s or 40s.[/QUOTE]
I think the problem is that you're thinking of Bird circa 1993, which has nothing to do with Bird 84-86. I actually agree that Dirk has gotten so much criticism over the years that he has become very underrated. I also hold in very high regard the ability to consistently keep a team in contention over a long period of a time, even more so than the burst of a title run. But Dirk isn't really close to Bird. Bird's a better rebounder, better defender, better ball handler, much better post player, and far better playmaker and passer in general (probably the best ever at the position).
[QUOTE]Defenders are better today.
I can use your theory on todays game to prove it to you. You said that todays game has rules in place to help the offensive player, and players are being held to lower scores then they were in the 80's and 90's. So even with increased rules to help the offensive player, defensive players are still finding a way to stop baskets and keep scores lower then that of the 80's and 90's. It is due to players being more athletic, faster movement, and better awareness.[/QUOTE]
This too is a legit argument, but from all the basketball I've watched, the reason the scoring dipped wasn't about better defense, it was about a much more controlled tempo that the league went to. I think a lot of it has to do with coaches playing far more into iso mismatch type basketball. It also seems to have coincided with expansion, when the talent pool thinned out, then again when the early entry boom started, and younger and younger guys were regularly in rotations because of the investment teams made in them. And even when their skillsets were in place, their decision making took a lot of time to come around. That led to coaches really pulling back on the reigns, and not letting teams play at a more frantic pace. There's some evidence in the more specialist type players that started populating the league during that stretch too.
[QUOTE=Godfather]Tell me Larry Bird compares to the athletes of today...He is an improved Mike Dunleavy in today's game.[/QUOTE]
unbelievable
[QUOTE=Thorpesaurous]I think the problem is that you're thinking of Bird circa 1993, which has nothing to do with Bird 84-86. I actually agree that Dirk has gotten so much criticism over the years that he has become very underrated. I also hold in very high regard the ability to consistently keep a team in contention over a long period of a time, even more so than the burst of a title run. But Dirk isn't really close to Bird. Bird's a better rebounder, better defender, better ball handler, much better post player, and far better playmaker and passer in general (probably the best ever at the position).
This too is a legit argument, but from all the basketball I've watched, the reason the scoring dipped wasn't about better defense, it was about a much more controlled tempo that the league went to. I think a lot of it has to do with coaches playing far more into iso mismatch type basketball. It also seems to have coincided with expansion, when the talent pool thinned out, then again when the early entry boom started, and younger and younger guys were regularly in rotations because of the investment teams made in them. And even when their skillsets were in place, their decision making took a lot of time to come around. That led to coaches really pulling back on the reigns, and not letting teams play at a more frantic pace. There's some evidence in the more specialist type players that started populating the league during that stretch too.[/QUOTE]
agree:applause:
Yes no doubt, he'd be like playmaker of Steve Nash with strength and quickness like Paul Pierce and shooting ability of Jason Kapono, clutchness of Manu Ginobili and defensive awareness of Kevin Garnett, all those skilles PLUS it was his passion and drive that made him the great player he was, and that is unparralleled in this league today. There are too many jack of all trades master of none players these days, or specialist superstars who are only good at one thing (gilbert and dirk, jacking 3s for example) but Bird was a jack of all trades, MASTER OF ALL. He pretty much has no weaknesses.
[QUOTE=plowking]Defenders are better today.[/quote]
Bird did it to Pippen, Rodman, Pressey, Cooper, McCray, Bobby Jones -- you name it, Bird trashed them. Go watch a 33 year old hobbled Bird abuse Pippen and tell me about how defenders are "better today." :oldlol: Individual defenders are actually worse today, since they can be hidden by zone; it's team defenses that are better, if anything. The 1984-1996 era probably produced more of the best defenders in history than any other era.
[quote]I can use your theory on todays game to prove it to you. You said that todays game has rules in place to help the offensive player, and players are being held to lower scores then they were in the 80's and 90's. So even with increased rules to help the offensive player, defensive players are still finding a way to stop baskets and keep scores lower then that of the 80's and 90's.[/quote]
[b]Team[/b] scores are low, not individual player scoring outputs. Over the last few years we've had more players average 30 ppg than ever before. Two different things.
Btw, not really relevant here, but last year's league averages were 99.9 ppg/45.7% FG. In 1996, the averages were 99.5 ppg/46.2% FG. So no, scores aren't lower than "in the 90's." First half of the 90's maybe. And again, there are many reasons why scores are lower now; it's not just the defense being played. Unsurprisingly, scores have inched up as more teams become stocked with talent (you know, like how it used to be). I expect league averages this year to be even higher.
players are NOT physically stronger or faster than players of 20 years ago. they just have better training regimes and medical resources.
a player does not evolve into a super human in one generation. it would take decades of selective breeding to achieve that. if they were than every player would be the son of a former NBA player and a former WNBA player. not the children of everyday people.
larry bird would have access to the same resources current players do and he would benefit in the same way, so his lack of physical fitness by todays standards would be improved anyway creating a level playing field.
also imagine if he had a shooting sleeve and longer shorts, then he would seriously LOOK more business........ :)
Why does Bird have to have this elite speed and quickness. He was 6-9 240 pounds and his shot was impossible to block because of how he shot it. Bird was guarded by many athetic players with 40 inch verticals and lit them up.
Dominque Wilkins - 43 inch vertical
Michael Cooper - 38 inch vertical
and More
I dont see Bruce Bowen or Shane Battier jumping out the gym and they are considered premiere defensive stoppers in this era.
Its hard to defend a guy who can catch and shoot immedietely off a screen from mid-range and distance and combine that with being 6-9 240 pounds.
Dirk Nowitski won MVP 2 years ago and led the Mavs to the NBA Finals and i dont see him busting out 40 inch verticals. Bird is better than Dirk
[QUOTE](and about Bird being comparable to Dirk...Since when was Larry Bird 7'0''?)[/QUOTE]
Bird was a solid 6-10. 2 inches isnt a big deal.
[QUOTE]
a player does not evolve into a super human in one generation.[/QUOTE]
yes they do according to at least half of insidehoops NBA Forum. In 20 years we will see people doing 360 poster dunks from half court.:hammerhead:
[QUOTE=Scott Pippen]yes they do according to at least half of insidehoops NBA Forum.[/QUOTE]
a fact that is scary as sh*t.
an analogy to explain this would be that physicits today know more than issac newton, but if he were alive today he would still be able to work on physics. 300 years = nothing in mental ability. how does 15 years = a completely new phyiscal design for basketball players?
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGJLMRQHuKQ"]Game 3[/URL]
[QUOTE=miller-time][B]a fact that is scary as sh*t.
[/B]
an analogy to explain this would be that physicits today know more than issac newton, but if he were alive today he would still be able to work on physics. 300 years = nothing in mental ability. how does 15 years = a completely new physical design for basketball players?[/QUOTE]
I have even seen people before say that this era is "much better and separated" from 2000:banghead:
The NBA has succeeding bringing new fans this decade. SC, rule changes, and another thing is more scrutinized media. I do not care at all about "access pass" or personal life or seeing a day in the life of LeBron or Kobe. This is why ABC is the **** of broadcasting. Even my old HS basketball commentator broadcast is better than ABC. MJ was right. He was great, but he ruined the game along with media. He allowed people to dream and we saw too many of the same type of player.
It is just beginning to come back to life with great team matchups now like Lakers and Celtics. The 2 best players in the NBA this year are actually not on **** teams anymore and we do not have to see one man shows followed by 1st & 2nd round exits. This might all seem like rambling and uneducated talk, but to understand the newer fans you have to think like them. And this year will be great [B]including all playoffs.[/B] The NBA is being resurrected:applause:
Oh man, that was a fun thread.
But seriously, wasn't there a playoff series where Bird ate nothing but potato chips and 7-up for like a week? I can't remember where I read that. Maybe basketbawful. I guess that's not all too different than KG not sleeping for like three days straight.
Again, in all seriousness, Bird owns Dirk if for no other reason than he can actually post up (and Bird is pretty damned strong). Go watch some old Bulls and Celtics highlights if you want. Bird just backs down Pippen and he can't do anything about it but call for help. Dirk gets checked by Captain Jack and James Posey.