hakeem vs d. robinson

[QUOTE=Shep]its very close..but david robinson over hakeem olajuwon.

granted, hakeem led his team to the finals in 3 years..but what about all those years he led his team to a .500 record ('87, '88, '89, '90, '92) with a supporting cast similar to the one david had when he was winning 55-60 games every year?[/QUOTE]

uh, championship > pretty regular season records, robinson's "dream" season (ironic, isn't it ?) ended up in being publically humilliated and embarassed by the true best center in the league, and by a team that won 15 less games than the spurs.

congrats to david, he was the dirk/webber of the 90's winning a lot of games in the regular season and then failing miserably in the playoffs.

[QUOTE]uh, championship > pretty regular season records,[/QUOTE]
which is why robinson stepped aside for duncan in '99
[QUOTE]robinson's "dream" season (ironic, isn't it ?) ended up in being publically humilliated and embarassed by the true best center in the league, and by a team that won 15 less games than the spurs.[/QUOTE]
uh..that rocket team also defeated the 60 win jazz and the 59 win suns..that team was destined to win the championship
[QUOTE]congrats to david, he was the dirk/webber of the 90's winning a lot of games in the regular season and then failing miserably in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
heh..i'd take winning 60 games and losing deep in the playoffs over scraping into the playoffs as an 8th seed and getting eliminated in the first round or not even making the playoffs ('90) :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Shep]which is why robinson stepped aside for duncan in '99[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Shep]uh..that rocket team also defeated the 60 win jazz and the 59 win suns..that team was destined to win the championship[/QUOTE]

and that was because of how good hakeem was, not because of the bunch of overrated role players around him.

[QUOTE=Shep]heh..i'd take winning 60 games and losing deep in the playoffs over scraping into the playoffs as an 8th seed and getting eliminated in the first round or not even making the playoffs ('90) :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

lmao, you are gonna bring up one season ? the spurs didnt win that season so this has no relevance, the rocckets won in 94 and 95, so david had a better season than hakeem in 95 because he won mvp and more games despite of hakeem exposing him as the overrated softie he was in the playoffs ? :hammerhead: we are discussing greatness here, hakeem LEAD his team to consecutive championships and embarassed robinson in front of his own fans, we aren't discussing how well robinson rode duncan's coat-tails.

[QUOTE]and that was because of how good hakeem was[/QUOTE]
you missed the point (hardly surprising). what i was saying is that san antonio wasn't the only 59+ win team houston beat so you can't use the excuse that "wow..they just got beaten by a 47 win team..they must suck", because so did utah and phoenix
[QUOTE]not because of the bunch of overrated role players around him.
[/QUOTE]
:roll: clyde drexler a role player? say no more
[QUOTE]lmao, you are gonna bring up one season ?[/QUOTE]
lmao, just like you are?
[QUOTE]the spurs didnt win that season so this has no relevance[/QUOTE]
why not?
[QUOTE]the rocckets won in 94 and 95, so david had a better season than hakeem in 95 because he won mvp and more games despite of hakeem exposing him as the overrated softie he was in the playoffs [/QUOTE]
olajuwon outplayed robinson in one series. if thats your only argument over why youd chose olajuson's career over robinson's you need to get out of this thread
[QUOTE]we are discussing greatness here[/QUOTE]
:bowdown:
[QUOTE]hakeem LEAD his team to consecutive championships [/QUOTE]
yeh..and without that, he wouldn't be near robinson..but because of it he is very close :D
[QUOTE]and embarassed robinson in front of his own fans[/QUOTE]
didn't get embarassed..simply got outplayed..nothing more
[QUOTE]we aren't discussing how well robinson rode duncan's coat-tails.[/QUOTE]
where'd you get the impression that i was? :lol:

I remember when the 95 Western Conference finals opened, it was dubbed the I-10 texas shootout. Robinson was presented the MVP trophy in San Antonio and if you watched the opening game, you could tell Olajuwon was pissed as sh*t. He took it as an insult because he knew he shouldve been MVP that year. San Antonio did have the best record in the league, and MVP honors usually goto the best player on the best team. Olajuwon just had too many moves in his arsenal, Robinson even said " I think I guarded him pretty well." Hakeem simply outplayed the Admiral.

[QUOTE]He took it as an insult because he knew he shouldve been MVP that year.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: david robinson rightfully won the mvp that year. there was nobody near him, infact it was the easiest choice of mvp since 1986 (larry over magic). olajuwon wasn't even second..i'd give it to shaquille o'neal, karl malone, and john stockton before him. granted hakeem had slightly better stats, but he missed 10 games, robinson missed one. hakeem had the better supporting player (drexler over rodman), yet won 15 games less. there's no argument

[QUOTE=DreamRockets]yeah idiot, because hakeem had MJ at SG, stockton at PG and barkley at PF :hammerhead: the likes of horry, casseell, kenny smith, herrera, mad max, etc were nothing but role players, the equivalents of avery, elliot, rodman and del negro in san antonio, hakeem didn't have a better "team" than robinson so stop making excuses, dude flat out whored the so called "mvp".[/QUOTE]

no need to get all excited. its just a message board. Horry was an up and coming youngster. cassell was a leader and kenny smith was also no slouch. you are also forgeting Mario Elie as well as clyde drexler (i think he was on the team at that time)...even if he wasnt, the rockets had a solid young nucleus...but i dont want to argue about the teams...lets focus on the Drob vs Hakeem.

go to basketball-reference.com and look at compare their season totals. Robinson peaked earlier than Hakeem. After Robinsons 1995 season, his numbers began to decline while Hakeems started to raise.

The analogy I made still holds true with KG/DRob Duncan/Hakeem. [U]I am NOT here denying the fact that Hakeem was the better player, what i saying is that the gap was closer than you are making it out to be. [/U]

People on this board claim that KG is better than Duncan...all i was saying is that if you believe this then you must also believe that DRob was better than Hakeem, because Hakeem and DRob are THIS GENERATIONS Duncan and KG.

[U]KG got his in the regular season, but when it came to the playoffs Duncan owned...same with how DRob got his in the regular season but Hakeem got his when it really mattered and that was the playoffs. [/U]

david robinson got punked. i only wish to see kobe get owned like that. just to see how his fans would react

[QUOTE=SsKSpurs21]no need to get all excited. its just a message board. Horry was an up and coming youngster. cassell was a leader and kenny smith was also no slouch. you are also forgeting Mario Elie as well as clyde drexler (i think he was on the team at that time)...even if he wasnt, the rockets had a solid young nucleus...but i dont want to argue about the teams...lets focus on the Drob vs Hakeem.

go to basketball-reference.com and look at compare their season totals. Robinson peaked earlier than Hakeem. After Robinsons 1995 season, his numbers began to decline while Hakeems started to raise.

[/QUOTE]

agreed-- and this is the main reason i originally started this thread back in sept

i had followed both of them for their whole careers; people put too much emphasis on that one series and forget how simply awesome drob was in his own right

[QUOTE=DreamRockets]not even close, spurs won 62 games and the rockets struggled to win 47 games because contrary to what casual fans think the drexler for thorpe trade was a bad one which disrupted out chemistry, we should have maintained our championship team from '94 intact and we could of had home court advantage in most series.[/QUOTE]
not sure you can blame that one on clyde. i'm sure the chemistry thing might have lost you a game here or there, but the rockets weren't on schedule to have home court that year. the team was on a 52 win pace (i just checked) but they had a very tough schedule over their last 36 games (the games w/ clyde) including multiple matchups with the jazz, sonics, spurs, and suns as well as individual matchups against the magic and knicks. that's pretty rough. other than a streaking chicago club and the pacers you guys had to deal with all the tough opponents the league had to throw at you that season stacked up late in the game. that team had a ton of grit though and really pulled it together by the playoffs. nice job by rudy t getting clyde involved by that point.

myabe your right, but i never liked drexler and thorpe was one of my favorite players so i was kinda pissed at the trade and had to blame clyde for something.

[QUOTE=DreamRockets]myabe your right, but i never liked drexler and thorpe was one of my favorite players so i was kinda pissed at the trade and had to blame clyde for something.[/QUOTE]
:D thorpe is one of the underrated players of our era, just like you said in the players that will be forgotten thread. he's another player from that 84 draft who should have gone higher.

[quote=dejordan]:D thorpe is one of the underrated players of our era, just like you said in the players that will be forgotten thread. he's another player from that 84 draft who should have gone higher.[/quote]

agreed

i am trying to remember any thorpe-drob or thorpe-hakeem showdowns though....

[QUOTE=The Mamba]Thank Ralph Sampson, and a better team for that. Hakeem played on some very good teams, from earlier in his career too. Robinson was stuck by himself until the mid to late 90's. .[/QUOTE]


First...Hakeem had one good team early. That was 1986. That was going to be a great team. Sampson got hurt the next year and was traded. Lou Lloyd, Mitchell Wiggens, and John Lucas were all thrown out of the league for using cocaine. (rumor has it you can thank Magic Johnson for that)
Hakeem's great team was destroyed. He didn't have a really good chance of winning again until 1993 when the Rockets lost to Seattle in overtime game 7.

Hakeem was always a different player in the playoffs, he stepped his game up like few others. In 1986 he averaged 30 points a game against the Lakers in the Western Conference finals and 27 against the Celtics. One of the best back courts of all time.

I will say Hakeem and David in the regular season are close to equals with Hakeem having a slight edge. Robinson was a very good player, top 10 centers all time.

In the Playoffs, Hakeem elevated his game to an amazing level. Even early in his career.
Robinson never took his game to the next level and in Sports, It's the Playoffs that matter the most. It's why you play the regular season.

Robinson lost (was destroyed) in a Legacy game. A game between two Giants at the height of their playing ability. Robinson lost huge and with it he lost his good name. He will never be seen as a top 5 center.

Playoffs mean everything. No one ever talks about regular season games of 10 years ago. I mean who cares...it's the regular season. It only matters that day and then it's over...move to the next game.

The playoffs though....they are forever. In every sport. We still here about the great victories like the Mets over the Red Sox in 1986, Jordan's shot of Craig Elho and we will always remember Dream owning D-rob. Playoffs are the stuff of legends!

So yeah...not even a contest. Hakeem all the way.

where did you dig this thread out from? :confusedshrug:

anyways, Hakeem vs David Robinson is like Tim Duncan vs Kevin Garnett.

one was great in the regular season, the other was great when it matters most. the similarities are frightening.

[QUOTE=SsKSpurs21]where did you dig this thread out from? :confusedshrug:

anyways, Hakeem vs David Robinson is like Tim Duncan vs Kevin Garnett.

one was great in the regular season, the other was great when it matters most. the similarities are frightening.[/QUOTE]

Olajuwon was better than Robinson in BOTH the regular season AND playoffs.

Having watched all these centers, I fail to see how

D-Rob
Hakeem
Shaq
Ewing

Can be distinguished as better than one another.
All were all time great centers IMO, and hard to judge as to who was better.

[QUOTE=G-train]Having watched all these centers, I fail to see how

D-Rob
Hakeem
Shaq
Ewing

Can be distinguished as better than one another.
All were all time great centers IMO, and hard to judge as to who was better.[/QUOTE]

[U][B]Tier 1[/B][/U]

Shaq
Hakeem

[B][U]Tier 2[/U][/B]

Robinson
Ewing

Tier one leads their team to multiple championships as main man, tier 2 doesn't. And a greatest of greatest center SHOULD be able to do it. AND both Ewing and Robinson had good talent surrounding them.

I dont buy it. Different teams, different circumstances... I dont buy that Shaq/Hakeem are a tier above Robinson/Ewing.

^ :oldlol: :roll: :oldlol:

Whatever dude.

All four are awesome, unstoppable scorers in different ways.
All four were great defenders (shaq not as much, but he was a great shot blocker/defensive rebounder).

All four are all time greats.

I doubt you have even seen them all in their prime, or 95% of ISH for that matter.

It's obvious that Hakeem was better than D.Robinson.
Robinson didnt win a championship until Duncan came. Hakeem didnt win a championship until Cassell, Horry came?
In the season and playoffs Hakeem was better, he was a real hustler, that's why he's the number one shot blocker of alltime.
I agree with the fact that Hakeem brought his game up in the playoffs, that's why David Robinson got owned, of course a little jealousy in the MVP award helped too.

In 95 Hakeem averaged 35.3 ppg in the series but Robinson, himself, almost average 30 ppg. The even more prominent fact was that a team led by Hakeem beat a team led by Robinson. THis is a poor way to rate the players.
Robinson was a incredible player and six games in 1995 is not a fair basis of comparison.

Robinson 21.1 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 2.5 apg, .518% FG (14 Seasons)
Olajuwon 21.8 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, .512% FG (18 Seasons)

His career efficiency is slightly higher than Hakeems at 29.0 versus 28.0

People say that...
1. Hakeem has two rings as a featured player, Robinson has two only as a complementary player
2. Hakeem has a better post game then Robinson
3. Hakeem outplayed Robinson head-to-head in their one playoff match up.

1. is true, but Duncan has more rings than Hakeem, so is he better? maybe, maybe not. Its not a fair way to judge.
2. is false. It is a dead heat pretty much. There is no analytical way to prove one is better than the other.
3. One series cannot be an over ruling judgement

[QUOTE=G-train]In 95 Hakeem averaged 35.3 ppg in the series but Robinson, himself, almost average 30 ppg. The even more prominent fact was that a team led by Hakeem beat a team led by Robinson. THis is a poor way to rate the players.
Robinson was a incredible player and six games in 1995 is not a fair basis of comparison.

Robinson 21.1 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 2.5 apg, .518% FG (14 Seasons)
Olajuwon 21.8 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, .512% FG (18 Seasons)

His career efficiency is slightly higher than Hakeems at 29.0 versus 28.0

People say that...
1. Hakeem has two rings as a featured player, Robinson has two only as a complementary player
2. Hakeem has a better post game then Robinson
3. Hakeem outplayed Robinson head-to-head in their one playoff match up.

1. is true, but Duncan has more rings than Hakeem, so is he better? maybe, maybe not. Its not a fair way to judge.
2. is false. It is a dead heat pretty much. There is no analytical way to prove one is better than the other.
3. One series cannot be an over ruling judgement[/QUOTE]
HELLO? Are you aware of what Duncan had around him when he won those championships? Robinson, Elliot, Parker, Ginobili, S.Jackson.
Put Hakeem in the team where Duncan was he'll make the Spurs a dynasty like Bostons'.:confusedshrug:

Dont tell me that Hakeem had quality players surrounding him like Robinson had, when he won the titles.

Regular season career averages are similar, accolades are similar, but when you go to the next level—the playoffs, Hakeem stepped up and got it done while Robinson did it, and worse yet, Hakeem got it done [I]against[/I] Robinson when Robinson was MVP, his team had the league's best record and homecourt advantage. Hakeem showed he could lead teams to titles, Robinson couldn't, and didn't win until Duncan got there and he played a complementary role while Duncan was The Man. I don't understand the confusion. When regular season performance is similar, playoff performance and what you were able to do in the clutch in leading your team is the tiebreaker. That's make or break time, and what Hakeem did was the stuff of legends.

EDIT:
[QUOTE=G-train]In 95 Hakeem averaged 35.3 ppg in the series but Robinson, himself, almost average 30 ppg.[/QUOTE]

Huh? Since when does 23.8 per game become "almost averaging 30?" Here's the rundown in case you forgot:

[B]Hakeem:[/B] 35.3 points, 12.5 rebounds, 5 assists, 4.17 blocked shots and 1.33 steals per game, 56 percent shooting from the floor

[B]Robinson:[/B] 23.8 points, 11.3 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 2.17 blocked shots and 1.5 steals per game, 44.9 percent shooting from the floor

[QUOTE=G-train]The even more prominent fact was that a team led by Hakeem beat a team led by Robinson. THis is a poor way to rate the players.[/QUOTE]

They faced each other in the playoffs head up, and they were each the leader of their respective teams. Robinson was the Most Valuable Player, had the league's best record and home court. Hakeem had a legendary playoff series and left the league MVP befuddled. Did you watch that series? None other than [B]Wilt freaking Chamberlain[/B] said, “I don’t know if a center has ever had a better offensive series, myself included.”
How is this a poor way to rate them when they went [B]head-to-head[/B] on the biggest stage—both teams healthy, no excuses—and one completely embarrassed the other? Legacies are established in the playoffs.

[QUOTE=G-train]Robinson was a incredible player and six games in 1995 is not a fair basis of comparison.[/QUOTE]

He and Hakeem had the exact same opportunity, and Hakeem got it done while Robinson didn't. You play the game to win. And Hakeem had already won the year before, winning as close to single-handedly as anyone had since Rick Barry in '75.

[QUOTE=G-train]Whatever dude.

All four are awesome, unstoppable scorers in different ways.
All four were great defenders (shaq not as much, but he was a great shot blocker/defensive rebounder).

All four are all time greats.

[B]I doubt you have even seen them all in their prime[/B], or 95% of ISH for that matter.[/QUOTE]

Think again buddy. I grew up watching Hakeem dominate. I watched him dominate Robinson, Ewing, and even give Shaq fits. I saw the absolute look of frustration on the faces of Robinson and Ewing, because [B]THEY HAD NO ANSWER FOR HIM[/B] and they were mentally broken, especially Robinson

Robinson and Ewing were not on Hakeem's level, Hakeem was arguably the most complete center of alltime. He had unparalled defense, crazy footwork, a array of offensive moves that shook people right out of their shoes, and insane court vision and handles for a big man.

Shaq also played against all the great players of that era and Shaq has said many of times that Hakeem was the greatest big man he ever played against.....Shaq has got mad respect for Hakeem.

Hakeem

G-Train,

You have some pretty shytty arguments. Hakeem, one on one, was by far the toughest big man matchup of any of those. Ask Shaq. Shaq was/is a bulldozer of sorts so it is different from the agility and finesse side of things. Hakeem beat Robinson, just watch his low post moves in that utube video. I had the pleasure of watching the entire series live and Robinson was shyt on. Hakeem beat Ewing. Hakeem beat Shaq. And he did it when it mattered most. All Hakeem had around him was role players in the first championship. Hakeem had Drexler in '95 but it wasn't the Drexler of '87-'92.

People are judged on their post season accomplishments. McGrady is a two time scoring champ and and a hellava good player. But what is he remembered for? What is Garnett remembered for? What is Barkely remembered for? What is Robinson and Ewing remembered for? They are all remembered for not being able to individually carry their team to greatness in the playoffs. That is what truley matters most. It's not the only thing, but it is what matters most. So...

Hakeem>>Robinson

This is what Olajuwon did to Ewing and the Knicks
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjs1sdRpSV8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjs1sdRpSV8[/URL]

and this is what Olajuwon did to Drob and the Spurs
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0[/URL]

How anybody can say those players were on the same level as The Dream is beyond me.

[QUOTE=Classic]
People are judged on their post season accomplishments. McGrady is a two time scoring champ and and a hellava good player. But what is he remembered for? What is Garnett remembered for? What is Barkely remembered for? What is Robinson and Ewing remembered for? They are all remembered for not being able to individually carry their team to greatness in the playoffs. That is what truley matters most. It's not the only thing, but it is what matters most. So...

[/QUOTE]

if this is the case, then why are people still arguing that KG > Duncan or Malone > Duncan. those same people who are arguing that Hakeem > Robinson because of post season success cant have it both ways.

I am not here to argue that David > Hakeem because thats not true...but I will argue that the gap that many are claiming to be HUGE is not that big. People here are making it seem like we are arguing Rasho Nesterovic vs Shaq.

David has had some great games against hakeem. just like how KG has had some great games against duncan. yet everyone says the gap between KG and Duncan is narrow but the gap between David and hakeem is huge? how so?

Hakeem Olajuwon, my all time favorite player, takes the cake here.











Not that I'm being biased or anything like that.

Hakeem was the better center in my opinion. As far as scoring goes, Robinson was better BUT overall, Hakeem was better (rebounding, blocking shots, skills, etc.). I think Olajuwon is actually one of the most underrated stars in NBA history. He really deserves more respect.

[QUOTE=SsKSpurs21]if this is the case, then why are people still arguing that KG > Duncan or Malone > Duncan. those same people who are arguing that Hakeem > Robinson because of post season success cant have it both ways.

I am not here to argue that David > Hakeem because thats not true...but I will argue that the gap that many are claiming to be HUGE is not that big. People here are making it seem like we are arguing Rasho Nesterovic vs Shaq.

David has had some great games against hakeem. just like how KG has had some great games against duncan. yet everyone says the gap between KG and Duncan is narrow but the gap between David and hakeem is huge? how so?[/QUOTE]

I don't think the gap is huge. But people only seem to remember player's post season success and use that as the measuring mark. I'm a big tmac fan but if you aren't its easy to say well, dude aint been out of the first round so he sucks. I think the difference between great and legendary is post season success and the ability to carry a team of lessers on your back. David Robinson was a great center, one of the greatest of all time. Hakeem was a legendary center probably top 4. That little difference, as seen in their head to head, is what people see and judge an extrodinary athelete by. Just the way it is.

[QUOTE=Classic]I don't think the gap is huge. But people only seem to remember player's post season success and use that as the measuring mark. I'm a big tmac fan but if you aren't its easy to say well, dude aint been out of the first round so he sucks. I think the difference between great and legendary is post season success and the ability to carry a team of lessers on your back. David Robinson was a great center, one of the greatest of all time. Hakeem was a legendary center probably top 4. That little difference, as seen in their head to head, is what people see and judge an extrodinary athelete by. Just the way it is.[/QUOTE]

fair enough :cheers:

[QUOTE=G-train]

People say that...
1. Hakeem has two rings as a featured player, Robinson has two only as a complementary player
2. Hakeem has a better post game then Robinson
3. Hakeem outplayed Robinson head-to-head in their one playoff match up.

1. is true, but Duncan has more rings than Hakeem, so is he better? maybe, maybe not. Its not a fair way to judge.
2. is false. It is a dead heat pretty much. There is no analytical way to prove one is better than the other.
3. One series cannot be an over ruling judgement[/QUOTE]

You are smoking with number two......Of course you can analytically show that Dream was a better post player...you can go through post skills Dream possessed that D-Rob did not..you can talk about back to the basket scoring and about ability to score from the post in the clutch...

Dream vs D-Rob is truly like the TD vs KG argument except Dream has interior skills on D-Rob while TD doesn't have more post skills than KG he is more effective becuz he is simply stronger and has a better center of gravity....

i like how this thread got recycled!

how many of the recent guys read through its development from the beginning?

Being rockets-oriented, gotta say Hakeem.:rockon:

Give me Hakeem Olajuwon. He elevated his game in the playoffs and Finals. 2 finals mvp is better than none.

[B]Do the stats when both where prime and healthy that is from 1989 to 1996 (ages 22 to 32: players prime and peak). Both where done after that. Hakeem will probably have better stats both in the regulear season and play-offs. Both where the best defensive centers (Admiral a better rim protector and Hakeem a better 1 on 1 defender. Both where great floor defenders for steals as C´s) but offensively Hakeem was much better. Hakeem was also a better passer and rebounder.[/B]