If George Mikan and Jerry West played in today's game, how good would they be?

The league hasn't evolved at all. What are you talking about? A 6'4" player doesn't magically grow 3 inches if he is born 40 years later.

With undersized centers like Udonis Haslem and Dwight Howard, Mikan probably would play center in today's league.

That doesn't mean he wouldn't be destroyed by guys like Zaza Pachulia and Erick Dampier.

[QUOTE=Stiff #1]The league hasn't evolved at all.[/quote]

The game has evolved, the climate around the game has evolved, and the technology and health aspects have evolved dumbass.

[quote]What are you talking about? A 6'4" player doesn't magically grow 3 inches if he is born 40 years later. [/quote]

No moron, but a 6'4'' player who is an impressive athlete in the 60's could develop into a more impressive 6'4'' athlete with modern training and the benefit of having an easier road to dedicate oneself to the game, specifically off the court.

[quote]With undersized centers like Udonis Haslem and Dwight Howard, Mikan probably would play center in today's league.[/quote]

Or, he could be a PF or both PF/C. Just because there has been smaller centers doesn't automatically mean he would probably play C. There have been tall PF's like Duncan, Brad Miller, Sheed, KG, Dirk, etc. That doesn't mean he would automatically play PF either.

[quote]That doesn't mean he wouldn't be destroyed by guys like Zaza Pachulia and Erick Dampier.[/QUOTE]

lol how you come up with this stuff is beyond me. You have no way of knowing what he would do, and neither do I. It's all conjecture, and it's amusing how you take such a firm stance on how he would play.

[QUOTE=Showtime]The game has evolved, the climate around the game has evolved, and the technology and health aspects have evolved dumbass. [/QUOTE]How is this? Just because you say so? Just because you wish it happened? The game hasn't evolved at all.

[QUOTE]No moron, but a 6'4'' player who is an impressive athlete in the 60's could develop into a more impressive 6'4'' athlete with modern training and the benefit of having an easier road to dedicate oneself to the game, specifically off the court.[/QUOTE]Silly post. An unathletic 6'4" player from the 60s would be an unathletic 6'4" player in the 90s or 00s. Only difference is that he'd probably get no playing time.

[QUOTE]Or, he could be a PF or both PF/C. Just because there has been smaller centers doesn't automatically mean he would probably play C. There have been tall PF's like Duncan, Brad Miller, Sheed, KG, Dirk, etc. That doesn't mean he would automatically play PF either.[/QUOTE]Or, he could be far too slow to defend PFs but have the height to play C, meaning he'd play C and no other position (even though he'd be too slow to defend the average C, but the average C is slower than the average PF).
[QUOTE]
lol how you come up with this stuff is beyond me. You have no way of knowing what he would do, and neither do I. It's all conjecture, and it's amusing how you take such a firm stance on this issue. [/QUOTE]I suggest you learn a little about NBA history. You have proven that you don't really understand the difference between today's players and the ones from the 60s.

[QUOTE]i think west would be much better than jeff hornacek if he played in today's era.

i think george mikan wouldn't even play center if he played today. [/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]Of course not, he was 6'10". But, like I was arguing with the OP, how can you be certain what he would play like given how the league has evolved in the past 50+ years?[/QUOTE]

Why not play center? Mikan was 6'10 barefoot, so he'd be listed either at 6'11 or even 7'0 without needing to increase height. He weighed about 250 lbs and had a pair of pretty wide and sharp shoulders. Plus, he was mentally tough: He once scored 28 points in a Finals game while playing with a cast in his injured hand. In another Finals game, in which his team played on the road, there was a rumor that he was allergic to smoke, so opponent fans had lighted thousands of cigarettes (yes, it seems like they allowed that stuff back then). He punished them by scoring about 42 points in that game.

[QUOTE=Stiff #1]snip[/QUOTE]

How has the game not evolved. Wow, for someone who claims to know more history than anyone to claim that the game has not evolved must not remember that running on the court was once against the rules...

Rules change, training changes (For instance, at one time basketball trainers forbade lifting weights, claiming that building muscle limited flexibility).

Getting back to rules, how about the hand check rule?

I could go on, but hopefully you get the point...

[QUOTE=Psileas]Why not play center? Mikan was 6'10 barefoot, so he'd be listed either at 6'11 or even 7'0 without needing to increase height. He weighed about 250 lbs and had a pair of pretty wide and sharp shoulders. Plus, he was mentally tough: He once scored 28 points in a Finals game while playing with a cast in his injured hand. In another Finals game, in which his team played on the road, there was a rumor that he was allergic to smoke, so opponent fans had lighted thousands of cigarettes (yes, it seems like they allowed that stuff back then). He punished them by scoring about 42 points in that game.[/QUOTE]


And he also played on a broken leg. Not a sprain, or strain, or any other BS that keeps bigs out for 4-6 weeks. A BROKEN leg. Only missed two games in his career.

Even Shaq was quoted saying, "Without number 99 [Mikan], there is no me." when offering to pay for his funeral.

I think he would be a PF in today's leauge, however. If he were brought up in modern highschools/colleges that is. A little lighter, and more agile, I think he'd be something like a Chris Bosh. Better or not, I don't know, but I think the style would be pretty similar

[QUOTE=blazerftc]And he also played on a broken leg. Not a sprain, or strain, or any other BS that keeps bigs out for 4-6 weeks. A BROKEN leg. Only missed two games in his career.

[B]Even Shaq was quoted saying, "Without number 99 [Mikan], there is no me." when offering to pay for his funeral.[/B]

I think he would be a PF in today's leauge, however. If he were brought up in modern highschools/colleges that is. A little lighter, and more agile, I think a someone like a Chris Bosh. Better or not, I don't know, but I think the style would be pretty similar[/QUOTE]
It's nice to make up quotes when you are running out of arguments. It's also funny considering that Shaq was born nearly 2 decades after Mikan's last season.

Shaq would beat Mikan into a pulp. If Mikan didn't exist, Shaq would still win 4 titles, 3 consecutive Finals MVPs, average 30 ppg in his best year, etc. Mikan had no impact on Shaq.

Can you imagine the two playing each other? :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Stiff #1]How is this? Just because you say so? Just because you wish it happened? The game hasn't evolved at all. [/quote]

Are you serious? I'll start it off:

THE WAY THE GAME IS PLAYED HAS CHANGED. There are different rules. I'm not going to explain them all, but for starters there's a 3 point line, restricted zone in the lane, goaltending, shot clock, 3 second rule, etc. The pace is much slower today, and how the game is played has changed. Is your viewpoint seriously that nothing has changed since Mikan played?

Because of the progress of the game, players who have broken new ground in certain areas have provided the basis for the next generation of players to develop those skills. For instance, the development of the dribble has progressed. Some guys only dribbled with one hand in Mikan's day. Then guys started using both. The "crossover" was simply an exchange between one hand to the other originally, but now it's commonly referred to a dribble between the legs. Guys like Cousy and Pistol were doing things ahead of their times, and because of the PROGRESSION of the sport, we now see players like AI, Chris Paul, and Tim Hardaway who were great ball handlers. Dribbling between the legs, with both hands, behind the back, etc are common abilities by today's guards which were things that were brought about by the progression. And that's just one example.

Also, the talent pool has expanded, the game has become more popular and because of that, the younger players have more ways of developing their games than in the 50's (including the racism that occurred). It's also easier off the court today, because if a player is talented, he gets to go to a top school, has it on easy street, and when he makes it to the league, gets paid an astronomical amount of money. Players in the 50's didn't get paid a lot of money compared to today's ratios, and some had to hold jobs in the off season. There were no private jets, but charter buses. Players today can afford personal trainers and dietitians who can prepare meals and they can have the luxury of dedicating themselves fully to the game, unlike former players. It's much easier in today's game to not only develop oneself as a player physically, but also off the court as well.



[quote]Silly post. An unathletic 6'4" player from the 60s would be an unathletic 6'4" player in the 90s or 00s. Only difference is that he'd probably get no playing time. [/quote]

Uh, West wasn't "unathletic". My point was that a top athlete then could certainly improve his body today compared to then. Not only has technology in regards to training methods improved and treatments to injuries, but as I pointed out earlier, it's easier for a player to develop themselves because of the change around the game as it's easier to take advantage of those assets. THE LEAGUE IS A HUGE BUSINESS NOW, and there is far more invested in a team resource wise than back then. There's no way Dwight Howard would be the physical specimen he is today if he were playing in the 50's or 60's. He'd be impressive nontheless ala Nate Thurmond, but he wouldn't have such a developed body or jumping ability, as the training and methods used today weren't available back then.

Just look at what Howard does: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1HIQpeyqTo[/url]

Mikan didn't have the luxury of having such resources and time to develop himself like today's players. He didn't have team gyms, trainers, equipment, training methods, diets, etc etc that helped Howard become what he is today.

[quote]Or, he could be far too slow to defend PFs but have the height to play C, meaning he'd play C and no other position (even though he'd be too slow to defend the average C, but the average C is slower than the average PF). [/quote]

I have no idea if he would be "far too slow", because there's no way of knowing how fast he would be if he trained in today's environment. BTW, Miller isn't anything near quick or athletic, and yet he was an all star PF.

[quote]I suggest you learn a little about NBA history. You have proven that you don't really understand the difference between today's players and the ones from the 60s.[/QUOTE]
Did you seriously just type this?

[QUOTE=Stiff #1]It's nice to make up quotes when you are running out of arguments. It's also funny considering that Shaq was born nearly 2 decades after Mikan's last season.

Shaq would beat Mikan into a pulp. If Mikan didn't exist, Shaq would still win 4 titles, 3 consecutive Finals MVPs, average 30 ppg in his best year, etc. Mikan had no impact on Shaq.

Can you imagine the two playing each other? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

[B][U][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="7"]SHAQ WAS REFERRING TO MIKAN AS A PIONEER, YOU IDIOT!!![/SIZE][/COLOR][/U][/B] :mad: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :mad:

Do they get to grow up in today's basketball environment, train with modern equipment, use modern basketball schemes? Or are we plucking them right out their primes with a time machine? Because that makes a bit of a difference.

[QUOTE]Because of the progress of the game, players who have broken new ground in certain areas have provided the basis for the next generation of players to develop those skills. For instance, the development of the dribble has progressed. Some guys only dribbled with one hand in Mikan's day. Then guys started using both. The "crossover" was simply an exchange between one hand to the other originally, but now it's commonly referred to a dribble between the legs. Guys like Cousy and Pistol were doing things ahead of their times, and because of the PROGRESSION of the sport, we now see players like AI, Chris Paul, and Tim Hardaway who were great ball handlers. Dribbling between the legs, with both hands, behind the back, etc are common abilities by today's guards which were things that were brought about by the progression. And that's just one example.[/QUOTE]Yes, and you know why they dribbled with one hand, looked down at the ball, and embarrassed themselves when trying to pull off a simple crossover that guys like Luke Ridnour can pull off with ease today? Because they were unathletic garbage.

[QUOTE]Also, the talent pool has expanded, the game has become more popular and because of that, the younger players have more ways of developing their games than in the 50's (including the racism that occurred). It's also easier off the court today, because if a player is talented, he gets to go to a top school, has it on easy street, and when he makes it to the league, gets paid an astronomical amount of money. Players in the 50's didn't get paid a lot of money compared to today's ratios, and some had to hold jobs in the off season. There were no private jets, but charter buses. Players today can afford personal trainers and dietitians who can prepare meals and they can have the luxury of dedicating themselves fully to the game, unlike former players. It's much easier in today's game to not only develop oneself as a player physically, but also off the court as well.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
Sorry, but having charter buses and private jets doesn't affect one's play at all. It's as easy to develop yourself physically today as it was back then. However, players today are much more athletic.

[QUOTE]Uh, West wasn't "unathletic". My point was that a top athlete then could certainly improve his body today compared to then. Not only has technology in regards to training methods improved and treatments to injuries, but as I pointed out earlier, it's easier for a player to develop themselves because of the change around the game as it's easier to take advantage of those assets. THE LEAGUE IS A HUGE BUSINESS NOW, and there is far more invested in a team resource wise than back then. There's no way Dwight Howard would be the physical specimen he is today if he were playing in the 50's or 60's. He'd be impressive nontheless ala Nate Thurmond, but he wouldn't have such a developed body or jumping ability, as the training and methods used today weren't available back then. [/QUOTE] West was unathletic. The abnormal freak of nature back then would be an abnormal freak of nature today. A top athlete back then would be an ok athlete today. A mediocre athlete back then would be a crap athlete today. A decent player back then would suck today. That's how it works.

[QUOTE]Just look at what Howard does: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1HIQpeyqTo[/url]

Mikan didn't have the luxury of having such resources and time to develop himself like today's players. He didn't have team gyms, trainers, equipment, training methods, diets, etc etc that helped Howard become what he is today.[/QUOTE]Mikan couldn't dream of doing what Howard does with these so-called "gyms, trainers, equipment, training methods and diets" today's players have. He just wasn't athletic enough.
[QUOTE]
I have no idea if he would be "far too slow", because there's no way of knowing how fast he would be if he trained in today's environment. BTW, Miller isn't anything near quick or athletic, and yet he was an all star PF.[/QUOTE] Miller was much more athletic than Mikan and is a one-time fluke all-star. He made that all-star appearance during a time when the center position was filled with terrible players.

BULLS wont stop until his idol Herbert Hill gets the mvp

[QUOTE=Stiff #1]The game hasn't evolved at all. [/QUOTE]

You should put that phrase above your avatar once you get enough posts. Wraps up your credibility quite nicely.

[QUOTE=Stiff #1]Yes, and you know why they dribbled with one hand, looked down at the ball, and embarrassed themselves when trying to pull off a simple crossover that guys like Luke Ridnour can pull of with ease today? Because they were unathletic garbage. [/quote]

Do you have any understanding of progression? THEY WERE BREAKING NEW GROUND BECAUSE THEY WERE DOING SOMETHING THAT HADN'T BEEN DONE BEFORE. Without them, you wouldn't have the players we see today.

[quote]:roll:
Sorry, but having charter buses and private jets doesn't affect one's play at all. It's as easy to develop yourself physically today as it was back then. However, players today are much more athletic. [/quote]

You are retarded. Off the court, players have a MUCH easier time developing because they have less and less to worry about. Their lives are easier because of economics of the game and the assets at their disposal in regards to the games. If you refuse to accept that, then I'm sorry but you are a moron.

[quote]West was unathletic. The abnormal freak of nature back then would be an abnormal freak of nature today.[/quote]

That's exactly my point. It's not that they were lesser people, but that today's methods help players reach their potential easier. West today would be a better athlete than he was because things have changed, just like Dwight would be a lesser specimen because he wouldn't have the advantages of the modern game.

[quote]Mikan couldn't dream of doing what Howard does with these so-called "gyms, trainers, equipment, training methods and diets" today's players have. He just wasn't athletic enough. [/quote]

What kind of logic is that? Howard DEVELOPED himself, just like Mikan could develop himself. Are you seriously saying Mikan was so physically inferior that he WAS INCAPABLE OF WORKING OUT IN A GYM?


Goddam, half my ignore list are your aliases, so WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A HINT AND LEAVE FOR GOOD? Or at least announce yourself whenever you make another one so we can all put you on ignore. Your level of stupidity is beyond absurd, to the point where I can only explain your level of stupidity as sarcasm.

[QUOTE=Showtime]Do you have any understanding of progression? THEY WERE BREAKING NEW GROUND BECAUSE THEY WERE DOING SOMETHING THAT HADN'T BEEN DONE BEFORE. [B]Without them, you wouldn't have the players we see today.[/B][/QUOTE]LMFAO. I take it that basketball is a new sport to you? Without them, we'd have the same players we have today. That's just obvious.

[QUOTE]You are retarded. Off the court, players have a MUCH easier time developing because they have less and less to worry about. Their lives are easier because of economics of the game and the assets at their disposal in regards to the games. If you refuse to accept that, then I'm sorry but you are a moron.[/QUOTE]Wrong again. Off the court, players have arguably a harder time developing because of the need to worry about the media's questions, public perception, etc. Back then, these bums had everything easy. The media didn't care about anything or make up bullsh*t rumors to stir up controversy. Players back then were soft.

[QUOTE]That's exactly my point. It's not that they were lesser people, but that today's methods help players reach their potential easier. West today would be a better athlete than he was because things have changed, just like Dwight would be a lesser specimen because he wouldn't have the advantages of the modern game.[/QUOTE]Learn the game. West would not be a better athlete if he played today because nothing has changed. If he wasn't a great athlete back then, when it was easier to train/develop your game, then he'd be a terrible one today.

[QUOTE]What kind of logic is that? Howard DEVELOPED himself, just like Mikan could develop himself. Are you seriously saying Mikan was so physically inferior that he WAS INCAPABLE OF WORKING OUT IN A GYM? [/QUOTE]You don't understand it? Too bad.

[QUOTE]Goddam, half my ignore list are your aliases, so WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A HINT AND LEAVE FOR GOOD? Or at least announce yourself whenever you make another one so we can all put you on ignore. Your level of stupidity is beyond absurd, to the point where I can only explain your level of stupidity as sarcasm. [/QUOTE]Alias? Get a clue. I started posting here 2 days ago.

Does this mean 30 years from now we're going to say that Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson were unathletic garbage?

[QUOTE=Mateo]Does this mean 30 years from now we're going to say that Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson were unathletic garbage?[/QUOTE]
Who were physically incapable of working out in gyms. They were barely able to hobble upcourt in the game that hasn't had one single change in 50+ years.

[QUOTE=Mateo]Does this mean 30 years from now we're going to say that Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson were unathletic garbage?[/QUOTE]
If not for the fact that Jordan is and always will be one of the 4-6 most athletic players to ever play the game, then sure.

[QUOTE=Stiff #1]If not for the fact that Jordan is and [B]always will be one[/B] of the 4-6 most athletic players to ever play the game, then sure.[/QUOTE]

Definitly not always. In about 20/30 years, they're will probably be 6+ more athletic players than Jordan. Not better, just more athletic.

Bump.


Now Jerry West was 6'3, fairly athletic, and had a 6'10 wingspan. And on top of that, a crazy quick release. He'd be just as good.



But Mikan? :kobe:

He had a trick to his lightning quick release. Right before he shoots he would pound the ball hard and catch it on the way up for a quick release.

Much quicker than loading the normal way.

West is as tall as Kobe with long arms and could get 16 inches above the rim in college. His last season in 73-74, he averaged 2.6 steals and 0.7 blocks at age 35.

Jerry west would be top 5 in league, Mikan maybe top 15ish

Picture a peak shaq with Bill Russell defense and rebounding and great freethrow shooting and you get George Mikan.

:oldlol:
Stiff1 is one of the historically biggest and oldest trolls ever, he'd been posting and banned in lots of forums and, of course, sought refuge in the official Asylum of NBA boards, and even here, after some time, he started getting repeatedly banned and changing nicknames. This topic is pretty old by itself (2008), and stiff1 had already been banned a crapload of times.

Did anyone think of that Ming 7_6 guy?
(I'm not implying they are the same person, but their cases had creepy similarities. But it seems like "stiff" gave up eventually).

[QUOTE=Mateo]Does this mean 30 years from now we're going to say that Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson were unathletic garbage?[/QUOTE]

As the years fly by the rate of progress slows. It's no different than economic growth in countries. It started rapidly and now grows very slowly in 1st world nations while 2nd/3rd world nations rapidly grow.

Mikan was a scrub who played in the 50s. That's the truth.

[IMG]http://www.latimes.com/includes/projects/img/lakers/bio_photos/coach_george_mikan.jpg[/IMG]

Mikan that played in 1950s: Hello I am a superstar HOF NBA center

Had he lived today he would say: Standard or itemized?

[QUOTE=Psileas]:oldlol:
Stiff1 is one of the historically biggest and oldest trolls ever, he'd been posting and banned in lots of forums and, of course, sought refuge in the official Asylum of NBA boards, and even here, after some time, he started getting repeatedly banned and changing nicknames. This topic is pretty old by itself (2008), and stiff1 had already been banned a crapload of times.

Did anyone think of that Ming 7_6 guy?
(I'm not implying they are the same person, but their cases had creepy similarities. But it seems like "stiff" gave up eventually).[/QUOTE]
I bet he still posts.