Kobe Bryant scores 61 points against Knicks in Madison Square Garden

[QUOTE=andgar923]

Great performance but that doesn't make him the GOAT or even better than MJ.

I mean... what if Arenas comes back and drops 64 against the Knicks at the Garden?

We all know he can.

Or what if Bron drops 60 against Kobe next game?

Speaking of Bron, I think his 50 at the Garden was more impressive, because of HOW he was doing it. People are free to point at the numbers and Kobe's efficiency and even at a few of his shots, but Bron was crazy that last quarter and a half.[/QUOTE]

im not sure what you are insinuating, that dropping 60 is easy and not impressive at all?

gilbert scored 60 once and now he can just go off on any night? Brons never scored 60 but he can also go off on any given night?

Other than Wilt, Jordan, and Kobe. who else has scored 60 more than once?

and of the hundreds of stars that have played in this league how many have joined the 60pt club. I dont think you understand how rare of an occurrence these games are.

edit: i think elgin dropped 60 more than once as well.

I'm not sure what's more hilarious; The people claiming Kobe to be the greatest ever based on this game, or the people who are taking offense and having heart attacks right in front of our very eyes.

We can all agree that Kobe had a great night. He dropped 61 points, a record-setting number in MSG. I've heard posters say "well, the Knicks defense sucks!" Okay, so why doesn't everyone clobber them like Kobe just did? The fact is, the guy's an unbelievable scorer and deserves our recognition.

Some people are clearly blowing his performance out of proportion, but they're probably just young fans with little NBA perspective. That or they're trolls. Either way, furiously arguing with them over why Michael Jordan is better than Kobe serves no purpose. You'll fail at changing anyones mind, it'll be a waste of time, and you'll further drag down the quality of this board.

Instead, why not just congratulate Kobe on a great night and be on your way? Use a disclaimer if you have to: While it's only a regular-season game against a porous Knicks defense, Kobe still had a pretty great game and deserves some credit. That's it. That's all you need to say. It'll certainly help cut down on these ridiculous arguments and save your energy for actually making good, productive posts that help enhance this board's quality, instead of deteriorating it.

Oh my lord.


Somebody called it earlier. Not sure who, but he said Kobe is gone, and Black Mamba is here.

61 against the Knicks....

Ill be happy when he gets 61 and the Lakers beat the Celtics.
I'm not impressed.








[COLOR="White"]Sike[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Showtime]I'm not acting like getting to the finals is easy. What a player does when they get there does matter. And it's not JUST winning, it's performing to the maximum (which usually translates into winning in players of that calibre). For instance, MJ wasn't getting to the finals early in his career, but in losing to superior teams, he was the best player on the court and put up amazing series while losing. He did everything he could at that time, dominated, and lost. Kobe, on the other hand, in losing, doesn't play his best. [B]Would you say Kobe in 2004 or 2008 played the best basketball he could? Would you say he was the best player on the court, did his best, and just lost to superior teams? No.

And I'm not trying to say MJ never struggled. I'm saying I don't see Kobe having consistently played a high level of ball through the playoffs with the exception of his first 3 rounds last year.[/QUOTE]
[/B]

2004 was not good, had a couple of good games in 2008 Finals & overall playoffs was solid. Just trying to keep it in context when we can't even discuss bad Finals performances from T-Mac, Vince, and other Kobe contemporaries because they have gotten there (which you have to do to win it)

Kobe's had poor Finals like Magic, Bird, etc... very few can touch MJ in that regard (though I'd argue for Shaq)

As a whole, I think Kobe has done well in the playoffs especially in the 3-peat, series where he averaged like 35 or so. And he and Shaq set the record for scoring duo in the playoffs in 2001 when Kobe averaged like 29 points or so. Great moments too setting up Game winning shots for Horry and Fisher, leading the Lakers over Indiana after Shaq fouled out, blocking Rick Smits shot in OT to win

Again, Kobe's no A-Rod.

I don't know about GOAT. Thats a bit much.

But Kobe had a great offensive game. He was hot. And it was mostly within the offense. Few and 1's.

Not to mention Pau's incredible night.

Lakers scored 30+ point in every quarter.

[QUOTE=crisoner]61 against the Knicks....

Ill be happy when he gets 61 and the Lakers beat the Celtics.
I'm not impressed.








[COLOR="White"]Sike[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Edit - Your white text got me!

[QUOTE=chopchop20][/B]

2004 was not good, had a couple of good games in 2008 Finals & overall playoffs was solid. Just trying to keep it in context when we can't even discuss bad Finals performances from T-Mac, Vince, and other Kobe contemporaries because they have gotten there (which you have to do to win it)

Kobe's had poor Finals like Magic, Bird, etc... very few can touch MJ in that regard (though I'd argue for Shaq)

As a whole, I think Kobe has done well in the playoffs especially in the 3-peat, series where he averaged like 35 or so. And he and Shaq set the record for scoring duo in the playoffs in 2001 when Kobe averaged like 29 points or so. Great moments too setting up Game winning shots for Horry and Fisher, leading the Lakers over Indiana after Shaq fouled out, blocking Rick Smits shot in OT to win

Again, Kobe's no A-Rod.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying Kobe is A-Rod. I'm not saying Kobe is a bad player. I'm not saying Kobe is a poor scorer. I'm saying I don't think they are on the same level. Why is this difficult to grasp? People think if I don't think Kobe is as good, it means he's a bad player. IT JUST MEANS I DON'T THINK THEY ARE ON THE SAME LEVEL. THAT'S ALL. Kobe is a HOF SG, and might end up as the second best at his position of all time. He's arguably the best offensive player since MJ. Just because I don't think they are the same doesn't mean I think Kobe can't play.

[QUOTE=YAWN]im not sure what you are insinuating, that dropping 60 is easy and not impressive at all?

gilbert scored 60 once and now he can just go off on any night? Brons never scored 60 but he can also go off on any given night?

Other than Wilt, Jordan, and Kobe. who else has scored 60 more than once?

and of the hundreds of stars that have played in this league how many have joined the 60pt club. I dont think you understand how rare of an occurrence these games are.

edit: i think elgin dropped 60 more than once as well.[/QUOTE]

I was trying to make a point to the Kobe ******gers.

They keep saying that he's the GOAT due to this performance which bettered MJ's.

I was just using their logic against them.

What if Arenas beats that record? Will he be better than Kobe then?

I think its a legit question if we use that logic, which of course, to most normal fans it doesn't make sense.

But that's not my logic, its theirs.

[QUOTE=Showtime]I will bring this up again: do you feel that AI and Gervin are on Kobe's level as a scorer because of their scoring accomplishments, some of which are superior to Kobe's?[/QUOTE]

I don't see Iverson at all. Too small, Kobe ability to post up and finish on practically anybody makes this a mismatch (AI might not even be as good a point guard as Kobe.)

Ice Man, good shooter & finisher definitely on par in terms of versatility and offensive skill. Kobe's explosiveness is the deciding edge. I don't see Iceman being as good off the bounce. Younger Kobe was an outstanding slasher and he still gets to the hoop pretty well now.

[QUOTE=Showtime]I'm not saying Kobe is A-Rod. I'm not saying Kobe is a bad player. I'm not saying Kobe is a poor scorer. [B]I'm saying I don't think they are on the same level. [/B] Why is this difficult to grasp? People think if I don't think Kobe is as good, it means he's a bad player. IT JUST MEANS I DON'T THINK THEY ARE ON THE SAME LEVEL. THAT'S ALL. [B]Kobe is a HOF SG, and might end up as the second best at his position of all time. He's arguably the best offensive player since MJ.[/B] Just because I don't think they are the same doesn't mean I think Kobe can't play.[/QUOTE]

:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=NoGunzJustSkillz]:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Reading comprehension FTW. Try reading again.

[QUOTE=Showtime]I'm not saying Kobe is A-Rod. I'm not saying Kobe is a bad player. I'm not saying Kobe is a poor scorer. I'm saying I don't think they are on the same level. Why is this difficult to grasp? People think if I don't think Kobe is as good, it means he's a bad player. IT JUST MEANS I DON'T THINK THEY ARE ON THE SAME LEVEL. THAT'S ALL. Kobe is a HOF SG, and might end up as the second best at his position of all time. He's arguably the best offensive player since MJ. Just because I don't think they are the same doesn't mean I think Kobe can't play.[/QUOTE]

C/s

People love to take it to extremes.

"So you don't think Kobe's the GOAT? then you must hate him!!"

Why can't people just be a basketball fan that calls it as they see it?

And if some of us have a certain reaction, its mostly to attempt to correct the ignorant fans out there. But as soon as one does that he gets labeled a "hater"... I mean.... damn shame.

[QUOTE=Showtime]I'm not saying Kobe is A-Rod. I'm not saying Kobe is a bad player. I'm not saying Kobe is a poor scorer. I'm saying I don't think they are on the same level. Why is this difficult to grasp? People think if I don't think Kobe is as good, it means he's a bad player. IT JUST MEANS I DON'T THINK THEY ARE ON THE SAME LEVEL. THAT'S ALL. Kobe is a HOF SG, and might end up as the second best at his position of all time. He's arguably the best offensive player since MJ. Just because I don't think they are the same doesn't mean I think Kobe can't play.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, we know that MJ is better overall because the history is written, the performances are out there.

My personal take on MJ:

A lot of people look at MJ as a guy who did things that nobody could do from a skill standpoint.

I don't think it's his skill that sets him so far apart. There's been better shooters, athletes, IMO. Looking at Le Bron now who can wow you just like MJ. I mean, that's what I'm saying with regards to Kobe and MJ -- I don't see many things that Kobe can't compare in terms of skill.

But I have always said Jordan's thing was consistency. Nobody in NBA history has consistently brought their "A" like MJ. He was good to great 90% the time. (Maybe this was the point that you're making in comparison to Kobe)

So I think we will definitely see some great athletes, great performances, and offensive talent in the NBA, but I don't know if we'll see consistent excellence on a nightly basis. Very few are close in that regard, (Jerry West is probably the closest)
like MJ>

[QUOTE=chopchop20]I don't see Iverson at all. Too small, Kobe ability to post up and finish on practically anybody makes this a mismatch (AI might not even be as good a point guard as Kobe.)[/quote]

Accomplishments:

AI's total games: 874
AI's 30 point games: 344
AI's scoring championships: 4

Kobe's total games: 913
Kobe's 30 point games: 295
Kobe's scoring championships: 2

I'm not doing an entire career comparison, but the point is as far as scoring, AI may not have reached Kobe's peak, but he's scored more 30 point games, has more scoring championships, and done so in fewer games. Kobe has the edge in efficiency, but if somebody said AI was in Kobe's league as far as scoring, you disagree.

Same with Gervin. He has the points record (along with Melo) in one quarter. He has 4 scoring championships. He's done things Kobe hasn't done. Doesn't that make them comparable?

Now, if you don't agree they are in the same class with Kobe, then why is it so hard to understand why many feel Kobe isn't in the same class as MJ?

[QUOTE=chopchop20]As a whole, I think Kobe has done well in the playoffs especially in the 3-peat, series where he averaged like 35 or so.[/quote]

Kobe has only averaged 33+ ppg in four playoff series in his career, two of which were last year. He's only averaged 35 ppg in one series in his career. Why are you saying "series" as in "more than one"?

Kobe has averaged 33+ ppg in just four playoff series in his entire career. 33.4 ppg is Jordan's [b]career playoff average[/b] (which includes numerous past-prime years). To this day, Kobe only has [b]one playoff series in his entire career[/b] which surpasses Jordan's [b]career playoff average[/b] in terms of ppg. But feel free to keep trying to change the subject from what you originally implied, which is that Kobe is somehow in Jordan's universe as a playoff scorer/performer.

[QUOTE=andgar923]C/s

People love to take it to extremes.

"So you don't think Kobe's the GOAT? then you must hate him!!"

Why can't people just be a basketball fan that calls it as they see it?

And if some of us have a certain reaction, its mostly to attempt to correct the ignorant fans out there. But as soon as one does that he gets labeled a "hater"... I mean.... damn shame.[/QUOTE]

It's not about being the GOAT. My problem is that people come at Lakers fans like we just sit around all day making up fairy tales about Kobe. Like everything he does is imaginary.

Kobe's place in history like any other is subjective. And yes, there will be a very small few who might say he is better than MJ. To me that's besides the point, cuz opinions are like a-holes.

I just try to shine the light on the fact that hey -- this guy is actually pretty good, he's done some really good things on the court and it's not make believe.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall] [B]But feel free to keep trying to change the subject from what you originally implied, which is that Kobe is somehow in Jordan's universe as a playoff scorer/performer.[/B][/QUOTE]

Show me where I made that statement that suggests that.

Some people in this thread are outrageous in their comparisons.

61 (and 0 boards) against the D'Antoni, Phoenix style, run and gun, no defense as a trademark and almost part of their philosophy Knicks, is nowhere near the accomplishment of 55 in MJ'S 5TH GAME BACK from playing another sport against the Ewing, Starks, Harper, Mason, Oakley, etc. defensive minded Knicks.

C'mon, Kobe's great but get serious. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]Some people in this thread are outrageous in their comparisons.

61 (and 0 boards) against the D'Antoni, Phoenix style, run and gun, no defense as a trademark and almost part of their philosophy Knicks, is nowhere near the accomplishment of 55 in MJ'S 5TH GAME BACK from playing another sport against the Ewing, Starks, Harper, Mason, Oakley, etc. defensive minded Knicks.

C'mon, Kobe's great but get serious. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

I thought the thread about the game, tonight. Then I get here and see all this talk about all-tie greatness and the millionth comparison to MJ.

[QUOTE=chopchop20]I thought the thread about the game, tonight. Then I get here and see all this talk about all-tie greatness and the millionth comparison to MJ.[/QUOTE]
Maybe you should have come in earlier when Kobe was being called the GOAT scorer.

[QUOTE=Showtime]Accomplishments:

AI's total games: 874
AI's 30 point games: 344
AI's scoring championships: 4

Kobe's total games: 913
Kobe's 30 point games: 295
Kobe's scoring championships: 2

I'm not doing an entire career comparison, but the point is as far as scoring, AI may not have reached Kobe's peak, but he's scored more 30 point games, has more scoring championships, and done so in fewer games. Kobe has the edge in efficiency, but if somebody said AI was in Kobe's league as far as scoring, you disagree.

Same with Gervin. He has the points record (along with Melo) in one quarter. He has 4 scoring championships. He's done things Kobe hasn't done. Doesn't that make them comparable?

Now, if you don't agree they are in the same class with Kobe, then why is it so hard to understand why many feel Kobe isn't in the same class as MJ?[/QUOTE]

Your point is logical if you're basing your argument entirely on career stats which was not my intention. But if that's your intention, we could easily end this conversation by mentioning Mr. Chamberlain whose "numbers" trump all in this discussion.

[QUOTE=catzhernandez]Edit - Your white text got me![/QUOTE]

:cheers:

[QUOTE=chopchop20]Show me where I made that statement that suggests that.[/QUOTE]

Sure. Showtime posted:

[quote=Showtime]Since others are bringing up the subject, if Kobe is on par with MJ in terms of scoring, then why can't he dominate the playoffs like he dominates occasional regular season teams? Why doesn't he have some of his most memorable performances against the best teams in the playoffs? Why can't he bring it when it matters most against the best competition? I honestly thought after last season's finals, this issue would die.[/quote]

You said in response:

[quote=chopchop20]Because you fail to see the totality of Kobe's playoff performances.[/quote]

Rather than admitting that Kobe is nowhere near the playoff performer/scorer that Jordan is (which he isn't), you tried to obfuscate and make excuses. You made it sound like Showtime would realize that they're not that far apart if only he could grasp "the totality of Kobe's playoff performances" like you have. :oldlol:

Again, Kobe has only had one playoff series in his [b]entire career[/b] that exceeds Jordan's career playoff [b]average[/b] (35.0 ppg vs. MJ's 33.4 ppg career average). Kobe's [b]best[/b] [u]single series[/u] average (35.0 ppg) is basically Jordan's [b]111 game, 9 season playoff average[/b] upon retirement in 1993 (34.8 ppg).

Tell me again how he's comparable as a playoff scorer. And if, based on the above, you concede that he's not (as any sane person would in the face of such overwhelming evidence), then please state so unequivocally. Thanks.

this jordan kobe stuff takes the piss its neverending

im really anoyed i missed the game last night. beastage by kobe. still the best scorer and imo best player in the leauge. but their is no way that a rational fan can be serious when arguing kobe<jordan. its just not true. kobes kobe and hes the best guard of this era leave it at that

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Sure. Showtime posted:



You said in response:



[B]Rather than admitting that Kobe is nowhere near the playoff performer/scorer that Jordan is (which he isn't), you tried to obfuscate and make excuses. [/B] You made it sound like Showtime would realize that they're not that far apart if only he could grasp "the totality of Kobe's playoff performances" like you have. :oldlol:

Again, Kobe has only had one playoff series in his [b]entire career[/b] that exceeds Jordan's career playoff [b]average[/b] (35.0 ppg vs. MJ's 33.4 ppg career average). Kobe's [b]best[/b] [u]single series[/u] average (35.0 ppg) is basically Jordan's [b]111 game, 9 season playoff average[/b] upon retirement in 1993 (34.8 ppg).

Tell me again how he's comparable as a playoff scorer. And if, based on the above, you concede that he's not (as any sane person would in the face of such overwhelming evidence), then please state so unequivocally. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Nope, not true and I don't see how you infer that. I never made this a comparison between MJ and Kobe's playoff stats -- that would not make any sense.

You seem to have a hard time comprehending that I can make a statement about Kobe that is independent of MJ. My analysis of Kobe's playoff stats is based solely on what Kobe Bean Bryant has done on the court.

Any kid with a computer and an internet connection can tell you that Michael Jordan has better playoff stats than Kobe -- that history is written.

[QUOTE=chopchop20]Nope, not true and I don't see how you infer that. I never made this a comparison between MJ and Kobe's playoff stats -- that would not make any sense.

You seem to have a hard time comprehending that I can make a statement about Kobe that is independent of MJ. My analysis of Kobe's playoff stats is based solely on what Kobe Bean Bryant has done on the court.

Any kid with a computer and an internet connection can tell you that Michael Jordan has better playoff stats than Kobe -- that history is written.[/QUOTE]

You clearly fail at reading comprehension. I'll post the two relevant sentences again:

[quote=Showtime]Since others are bringing up the subject, if Kobe is on par with MJ in terms of scoring, then why can't he dominate the playoffs like he dominates occasional regular season teams?[/quote]

[quote=chopchop20]Because you fail to see the totality of Kobe's playoff performances.[/quote]

Explain to me again how your response has nothing to do with (i.e. "is independent of") Jordan. You were answering a direct question [b]about[/b] Jordan/Kobe -- how can it have nothing to do with him?

Kobe Bryant is the best scorer in the modern era.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

That question was framed by Showtime -- he's the one who refereed to MJ.

AND if you look at my response, EVERYTHING that I said was about Kobe. Never made any comparison to MJ with regards to playoff stats.

From another thread which applies here.

[Quote]
Originally Posted by Diesel J
61 stands out more but in the same game tonight, Gasol put up 31 pts, 5 ast, 14 reb...

I would take Gasol's line over Kobe's line w/o blinking. I hate those one dimensional statlines[/quote]

One is not separate from the other. My game opens up your game. And vice versa.

They each played off each others success.

Kobe's zero rebounds means what exactly? He cannot contribute in other areas. Hence an empty statline.

How about the 14 rebounds both Gasol and Odom pulled down. They had the glass on lock.

Kobe was pushing down court running the wing or bringing the ball up or waiting for the outlet pass upcourt. Or should Kobe play the post on defense guard dlee. Box him out. And have Gasol run as the front man or wing during transition.

Feed the hot hand. And the Lakers did. Isn't that it goes. If it aint broke don't fix it.

Do you remembers Kobes 4 straight 10+ assist games a few weeks ago

[Code]
Jan 21 @ LAC W 108-97 1 41:23 5 15 33.3 2 7 28.6 6 6 100.0 2 8 10 12 4 1 0 3 18
Jan 19 CLE W 105-88 1 40:44 9 22 40.9 1 5 20.0 1 3 33.3 1 5 6 12 5 1 1 1 20
Jan 16 ORL L 103-109 1 41:22 10 26 38.5 1 5 20.0 7 8 87.5 2 11 13 11 6 2 0 3 28
Jan 14 @ SAS L 111-112 1 41:38 11 19 57.9 2 3 66.7 5 6 83.3 1 6 7 10 4 0 1 1 29 [/code]

Versus San Antonio, Orlando, Cleveland and the Clippers. 10-11-12-12. To go along with 7ish rebounds and 26ish points.

He can adjust his game whenever he needs to(NOW). What do you need to win tonight? Kobe will do it. The guy has complete control of his game and he has a proper team around him.

Those former laker teams...where kobe was scoring ridiculous points with few assists are implanted in my memory. Why? Because Kobe deserved more assists than his weak ass teammates could muster up.

People were calling him a ballhog and his selfishness was bad for the team.

When the truth was the Lakers sucked. Specifically his teammates. None of them could hit a jump shot of layup if their lives depended on it. Kobe was doing both scoring and setting up inept shooters.

Pretend you are Kobe or not. Be yourself. You are one of the most prolific scorers in the league. Running your offense.

Option A: Do I shoot the ball? Or do I....

Option B: Do I pass the ball to Kwame? so he can brick a layup.

Option C: Do i pass the ball to an open Brian Cook? So this 6'10" shooting forward can brick it.

Option D: Setup up Smush Parker so he can brick it.

Option E: Pass the ball to Slava Medvedenko...so he can brick it.

Option F: pass the ball to a young sasha...so he can brick it.

Option G: pass the ball to a young Farmar...so he can brick it.

Option H: pass to aaron mckie...oh my bad we signed him to keep my bench seat warm.

Option I: I know....Shammond Williams can drain a shot. Nope. No he can't.

I could go on.

[QUOTE=chopchop20]That question was framed by Showtime -- he's the one who refereed to MJ.

AND if you look at my response, EVERYTHING that I said was about Kobe. Never made any comparison to MJ with regards to playoff stats.[/QUOTE]

I understand the question was framed by him. My point is that one cannot be asked a direct question about a comparison between two people and then respond to that question without implicitly referring to one of the people being compared.

the kobe and lebron topic is really a post flooder in ish , and the man just scored
60 +, was that a big deal ?

[QUOTE]Option E: Pass the ball to Slava Medvedenko...so he can brick it.[/QUOTE]

:eek: Typo?

[QUOTE=snipes12]the kobe and lebron topic is really a post flooder in ish , and the man just scored
60 +, was that a big deal ?[/QUOTE]

60+ pts is no joke. when kobe starts doing 60 every game then its a joke.

[quote][Quote]
Option E: Pass the ball to Slava Medvedenko...so he can [SIZE="5"][i]MAKE[/i][/SIZE] it.[/quote]

Typo?[/quote]

Fixed. Sorry twiens.

[QUOTE=Corky McBiff]I only saw Kobe with ONE forced shot the entire night. He did whatever he wanted on the court. The Knicks were completely helpless. :oldlol:

[B]As "great" as LeBron is, he can't touch Kobe offensively.[/B] The mid-range game + footwork is what separates Kobe from everyone else in the league, including Wade and LeBron.

LeBron will either drive on you (iso or high screen) or when his shot is on, he will stroke the three. He has NOTHING in-between.[/QUOTE]

And Kobe can't touch Lebron's all-around game. It'll be easier for Lebron to score 61 than it would be for Kobe to post Lebron's numbers for a whole season.

It's called "perspective" people.

[QUOTE=243354]hes better then all of them. the G.O.A.T
61 pts in 37 minutes.:bowdown:[/QUOTE]

what? you've never heard the 99 point night of Jordan? he did it in 15mins.