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[QUOTE=Mikaiel]In Wilt's final season in the league, when he was 35-36, his rebound rate was the same as Tim Duncan's career high ...[/QUOTE]
In Wilt's last season his opponent rate was a 6'8" gheorghe muresan and he played with a ridiculous 25 more possessions a game.
[QUOTE=indiefan23]In Wilt's last season his opponent rate was a 6'8" gheorghe muresan and he played with a ridiculous 25 more possessions a game.[/QUOTE]
Rebound rate doesn't care about pace. Rebound rate = Percentage of available rebounds you grabbed. Let's say you were on the floor for 10 minutes. During that time there were 20 rebounds you could have grabbed, and you grabbed 5 of them. Then your rebound rate for that game was 5/20 = 25%. Pace is not part of the equation.
And Wilt's rebound rate in his final season is the same as Tim Duncan's career high (19.6). Are you certain it's a sure thing Duncan would outrebound Wilt ?
[QUOTE=indiefan23]Heh, I'm not young and I'm wondering who the ignorant one when you refer to your life being screwed up eating government cheese in the ghetto as a 'choice'.
Yea, KG could hold his own because the Western Conference bigs in 1996 cuz guys like Webber, Malone, Shaq, Dream, Robinson, Mutombo, Barkley... they were weak and sucked so hard. Good thing you are here to set me straight.[/QUOTE]
IT may not be a choice for a child that is raised in the "getto" but it is a choice when a individual lives a life style of crime and drugs.
[QUOTE=32jazz]I didn't even bother ask him what 6'5 player averaged 40 ppg & 20 rpg.:rolleyes: Just too stupid to acknowledge.[/quote]
I said approaching 40/20.
Elgin Baylor 6'5"
1962: 38.3 ppg, 18.6 RPG. 1.7 points and 1.4 boards is approaching. Baylor was 6'5".
Why should anyone listen when you don't even know the game's history?
[quote]So to point out the rebounding numbers of a 'relatively weak'(historically speaking) rebounder like Kareem in the late 80's when he was in his late 30's & retired at 41 or 42 years of age is ludicrous. But I am preaching to the choir.[/QUOTE]
He was in his prime and never injured. He pulled down 10 fewer boards then the 70s. Dream peaked at 14. At 33 he was 10.9. What happened was that in the 60's and 70's, in comparison to the 80's and 90's talent sucked and was concentrated into a few decent players.
[QUOTE=indiefan23]What happened was that in the 60's and 70's, in comparison to the 80's and 90's talent sucked and was concentrated into a few decent players.[/QUOTE]
You know some teams in the 80's wanted Wilt to come out of retirement right ?
[QUOTE=Niquesports]IT may not be a choice for a child that is raised in the "getto" but it is a choice when a individual lives a life style of crime and drugs.[/QUOTE]
Ha, okay, cuz I'm sure you know what living in poverty and racism in the ghetto is all about, right home boy?
So when you're raised in the ghetto and totally disadvantaged and you're a kid its not your fault. But when you turn 18 and graduate high school the fact that you're a victim of slavery AND segregation AND both your parents were crack heads thats your fault as an individual. Man, thats CLASSY!
[QUOTE=Mikaiel]You know some teams in the 80's wanted Wilt to come out of retirement right ?[/QUOTE]
I'm guessing that was early, early 80's. I think Wilt would have been a decent player today I just don't think he has his crazy rebounds or is far and away the best. At all. And by today, I mean 90's. Today's game is totally wack for comparing centers.
[QUOTE=indiefan23]I'm guessing that was early, early 80's.[/QUOTE]
Early 80's and mid-80's ...
[QUOTE=indiefan23] The 70's were a weak era and thats why people who were 6'5" almost averaged 40 ppg and 20 rpg.[/QUOTE]
You said the 70's (Kareem we were speaking of)you friggin idiot & that's a long way from 1962(Elgin Baylor) when we have all acknowledged that the pace of the game was much faster than it is today.
Again keep your idiocy confined to this thread.
[QUOTE=Mikaiel]Rebound rate doesn't care about pace. Rebound rate = Percentage of available rebounds you grabbed. Let's say you were on the floor for 10 minutes. During that time there were 20 rebounds you could have grabbed, and you grabbed 5 of them. Then your rebound rate for that game was 5/20 = 25%. Pace is not part of the equation.
And Wilt's rebound rate in his final season is the same as Tim Duncan's career high (19.6). Are you certain it's a sure thing Duncan would outrebound Wilt ?[/QUOTE]
Yea, I'm pretty sure. Elgin Baylor at 6'5" pulled down 19.8 boards a game.
You don't seem to be hating on me though so lets actually talk about it. The thing is when people try to say the era wasn't weak they end up almost universally talking about maybe what, 10-20 guys over a 20 year period? Most don't even bring that much up: they bring up Wilt mostly, and its only because of his enormous stats, lets be honest people. Then there are sprinklings of Kareem, West, Russell and then they try to argue that it wasn't weak because a few players were men amongst boys. You can see people who think they were better honestly and start shouting massive stats at you saying Shaq would get owned by the 60's or 70's league.
But here's the point. Even if we give it to them, lets say all those stars could have played today and played great, theres still 100's of other people in the league they refuse to discuss. Greg Ostertag was a 7'2" mobile/defensive center who was totally solid. He wasn't great at all. He was a role player. So heres my question: where are the 7'2" talented role players in the 1960s? Increased size has been poo poo'ed by people stating that the average has only slightly gone up but in reality an increased average by only a few points indicates huge differences across the board.
So lets put the cut off at 1980 and use Ostertag as the borderline roleplayer/starter guy. He played just under 20 mintues a game so we'll use that as a marker and 1980 as the cut off date. All time there have been 196 players over 7 feet tall. Of players who played even a single game before 1980 there were 32 of them. Of those 32 there were 19 who played under 20 minutes. Since 1980 there have been 163 7 footers, not including people who even played a single game in the 70's. Of them 119 did not play 20 MPG.
So what does this say? Since 1980 there have been 131 more 7 foot ball players and 119 who couldn't really make the cut to be a starter as opposed to 32 and 19 spread over just under 30 years on each side. Now you can say that in the 60's there were less teams which is true. By 68 though there were 14 teams and a rival ABA successfully recruiting at least 4-5 teams worth of top tier talent.
So while the early years outweigh the later years lets take the numbers past 1980 and pretend a new league formed taking 50% of NBA talent away weakening this facet of the league by a factor of 2. This is after the fact of the handicap of no players who played in the 80's and 70's counting towards 1980 (11 players). I think that more then makes up for the smaller number of teams.
You still have almost 3 times at 83 of history's 7 footers and exactly 3 times those who can't even start let alone being a footer at 57. And thats only considering height. If you take weight into account it just goes off the charts.
So anyway, this is way longer then I'm sure you were expecting, but when yes, I think TD would have out rebounded Wilt. If you want to say late 90's was weakening when he got there I agree, so you can pick Olajuwon over TD if you want. Or even Ewing or Mutombo honestly. They played in a time when nearly every team had a footer and a footer backing him up on the bench. Wilt played in an era when a 6'5" guy could average 19.6 boards a game yet come in fourth behind Wilt and two other 6'9" guys.
I mean, in that year alone there was only two other 7 foot players. Walter Dukes who averaged only 25 minutes a game and Harvey Halbrook, who averaged a Whopping 0 minutes a game for his illustrious career.
Anyway, I'm a bit spent on this whole topic honestly. I promise you some old dude is going to come on here, tell me I don't understand the toughness of players back then even though people played defense with 2-3 feet in front of the guy and picked them up at the elbow of the key. That's in a finals game 7 BTW. Thats a problem with these guys too. Since theres a real lack of stats like pace or even blocks and steals, or wingspans, or vertical leap, or sprint times or anything there is no way to factually go look at how high someone could jump. Instead we get anecdotal evidence which is ALWAYS seen with rose coloured glasses as they think back to their heros performing what was then the apex of the sport, so they remember it as they experienced it thinking as they thought "wow! no one has ever played ball tougher then Bill Russell!"
Or some other totally unquantifiable quality like 'courage' or heart. As if with 100's of millions of kids all trying to make the NBA qualities like courage, heart and toughness with 0 explanation as to why those qualities would vanish in the face of 100's of millions more people in the world playing ball. Guess what: toughness, courage and heart worked then AND now the same way and still get the best players to the big leagues. I'm willing to put Ben Wallace's and KG's toughness against anyone. Kevin McHale knowingly and actively injured himself to help his team win a title.
Okay, I'm out of rant juice. I dunno, I spent some time trying to figure out those numbers. What do you think? Sorry to rant in response to you. Nothing personal at all. ;0
[QUOTE=32jazz]You said the 70's (Kareem we were speaking of)you friggin idiot & that's a long way from 1962(Elgin Baylor) when we have all acknowledged that the pace of the game was much faster than it is today.
Again keep your idiocy confined to this thread.[/QUOTE]
Heh, man, the 70's were weaker then the 60's. There was this thing called the ABA that was half the size and had half of the best players?
[QUOTE=Mikaiel]Early 80's and mid-80's ...[/QUOTE]
Whom? I seriously doubt anyone would sign a 48 year old Chamberlian for anything but a publicity stunt. But I'm interested.
[QUOTE=Niquesports]What makes this discussion even the more silly is hearing people talking about the 70's and 60's being weak at center when you look at how weak todays Centers are. With the exception of D Howard is there any other dominating intimitating center today NO!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]
Weak compared to the late 80's to 90's. Yup.
[QUOTE=32jazz]
Because big men today do not want to play,nor can they can play, the 'back to the basket' traditional Center position(not glamorus enough) as these fundamentally sound big men of yore.
[/QUOTE]
Heh, I think a lot of that has to do with rule changes. That's not as effective at all as it used to be. Thats why post 04 in his prime Duncan stopped shooting so much let Parker/Manu score more. Center is a weaker position today for sure but I think the rules are also huge contributors to that.
[QUOTE=32jazz]
Could you imagine these same people would be criticizing the 'unathletic' Tim Duncan & swearing that he could not play with Shaq/Howard or today's big men if he had played in the 1970's. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Heh, and who's ever called Tim Duncan unathletic? Good crap. TD has been a pure machine his entire career.
[QUOTE=indiefan23]Weak compared to the late 80's to 90's. Yup.[/QUOTE]
IF you are older than 35 I will respect your opinion because at the least you saw Centers like
kareem
Moses Malone
Unseld
Reed
Cowens
Sam LAcy
Bob Lanier
Walton
Alivn Adams
Jack Sikma
Play not to mention the Big bodies of Clifford Ray and Tom Bowinkile then after the merger you had Dan issell , Artis Gilmore and Billy patluz this just off the top of my head. But my point isnt if the 70's Centers were better than the 80's C but that they were better than todays C.
[QUOTE=Niquesports]IF you are older than 35 I will respect your opinion because at the least you saw Centers like
kareem
Moses Malone
Unseld
Reed
Cowens
Sam LAcy
Bob Lanier
Walton
Alivn Adams
Jack Sikma
Play not to mention the Big bodies of Clifford Ray and Tom Bowinkile then after the merger you had Dan issell , Artis Gilmore and Billy patluz this just off the top of my head. But my point isnt if the 70's Centers were better than the 80's C but that they were better than todays C.[/QUOTE]
Willis Reed.
Nate Thurmond also registered the leagues first Quadruple double in 74(?)(official since blocks & steals weren't kept before around 73/74) & Wilt was winding down his career.
No doubt that the 'Centers' of the 60's/70's are better than Centers of today. I do admit the talent & ability at the swing positions(SG/SF) is definitely better today OVERALL than in the 60's/70's.
Artis Gilmore & Bob Lanier are considered second tier guys(in the overall 70's) ,but would dominate today.
I am out of here Nique. Too ridiculous.
[QUOTE=indiefan23]Yea, I'm pretty sure. Elgin Baylor at 6'5" pulled down 19.8 boards a game.
;0[/QUOTE]
Dennis Rodman averaged 16.1 boards a game at the age of 35, and he was listed at 6'7 and 210 pounds. Charles Barkley put up a 19 and 14 at the age of 33 and he was listed at 6'6 (and that was far from his best season). Corrected for pace those are very similar rates to Baylors, so was the late 90's a weak era?
[QUOTE=32jazz]Willis Reed.
Nate Thurmond also registered the leagues first Quadruple double in 74(?)(official since blocks & steals weren't kept before around 73/74) & Wilt was winding down his career.
No doubt that the 'Centers' of the 60's/70's are better than Centers of today. I do admit the talent & ability at the swing positions(SG/SF) is definitely better today OVERALL than in the 60's/70's.
Artis Gilmore & Bob Lanier are considered second tier guys(in the overall 70's) ,but would dominate today.
I am out of here Nique. Too ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
stats were inflated tho. Nobody is avg 50 and 25 today.
[QUOTE=32jazz]I didn't even bother ask him what 6'5 player averaged 40 ppg & 20 rpg.:rolleyes: Just too stupid to acknowledge.
But he points to an aging Kareem(who was 32/33 by 1980) & his falling rebound numbers of the late 80's to prove the 70's was a 'weak era' since Kareem dominated.
Kareem was hardly among the best five rebounders at his absolute peak against those so called 'weak Players' of the 1970's:rolleyes:
Top Rebounds per game(High rebound numbers are because of faster Pace of game & not ability of players):
1970
*Wilt -18.4- Injured most of season(Knee) but would have won it again
1)Hayes 16.9
2)Unseld 16.7
3)Kareem 14.5
1971
1) Wilt 18.6(on a ruined knee:pimp: barbarically repaired by todays standard)
2)Unseld-16.9
3)Hayes-16.6
4)Kareem -16
1972
1)Wilt-19.2
2)Unseld- 17.6
3)kareem-16
1973
1)Wilt-18.6
2)Thurmond-17.1
3)Cowens-16.2
4)Kareem-16.1
1974
1)Hayes-18.1
2)Cowens-15.7
3)McAdoo-15.1
4)Kareem
1975
1)Unseld-14.8
2)Cowens-14.1
3)Lachey-14.2
4)McAdoo-14.1
5)Kareem
1976
1)Kareem-16.9
1977
1)Walton-14.4
2)Kareem-13.3
3)Malone-13.1
4)Gilmore-13.0
1978
1)Truck Robinson-15.7
2)Malone-15.0
3)Cowens
4)Hayes
6)Gilmore-13.1
7)Kareem
1979
1)Malone
2)Kelley
3)Kareem
4)Gilmore-
Kareem could only muster about 4 top three RPG's finish & one(1) rebounding title at his absolute peak in the so called 'weak' 1970's:rolleyes: Wilt especially, & others used to criticize Kareem's relatively weak rebounding(compared to all time greats like Wilt). So to point out the rebounding numbers of a 'relatively weak'(historically speaking) rebounder like Kareem in the late 80's when he was in his late 30's & retired at 41 or 42 years of age is ludicrous. But I am preaching to the choir.[/QUOTE]
[B]Kareem was a great rebounder...Not Better Wilt or Moses but he was well beyond just a good or average Rebounding Center. Then if you look at Kareem`s FG% EFFECTIVE SKILL SCORING...with his Sky Hook and Skilled Touch he was REALLLY the 1st Feneace center....and he shot way more effective on Hakeem ages 24-27 (and himself passed his prime ages 39-41) and made Hakeem lower his FG% (7`3 and Hakeem was not a banger liek Moses whom could weather you down he was also a Feneace Center).
Also when you look at Kareem`s rebounding number one must also realize that his physical prime was from 1969-70 to about 1981-82: he wasn`t the strongest (he was strong though!) and his leap, potence agilit etc wasn`t the same as the 70s....from the pics you can just tell.
Wilt would dominate Today
In the physical 80s with players rich in fundamentals-passing game-ball iq-court vision and teams packed with great role players and superstars per team he would dominate!: imagine building a team built on a Rebounder, Shot Blocker and Athletic Freak as Strong as Wilt with a Great Fadeaway to good with that.
Kareem in the late 90s and 2000s with current ruels it would be laughable..to control his SPEED AND SKILL SET. A 7`3 with the SKILL SET OF A SF! Shooting, Jump Shot, Hooks, Layups and Dunks...GO loo kat Kareem`s head nearly touching the basket on a rebound when he was 21-22 at 7`3!
:confusedshrug: [/B]
[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Kareem was a great rebounder...Not Better Wilt or Moses but he was well beyond just a good or average Rebounding Center. Then if you look at Kareem`s FG% EFFECTIVE SKILL SCORING...with his Sky Hook and Skilled Touch he was REALLLY the 1st Feneace center....and he shot way more effective on Hakeem ages 24-27 (and himself passed his prime ages 39-41) and made Hakeem lower his FG% (7`3 and Hakeem was not a banger liek Moses whom could weather you down he was also a Feneace Center).
Also when you look at Kareem`s rebounding number one must also realize that his physical prime was from 1969-70 to about 1981-82: he wasn`t the strongest (he was strong though!) and his leap, potence agilit etc wasn`t the same as the 70s....from the pics you can just tell.
Wilt would dominate Today
In the physical 80s with players rich in fundamentals-passing game-ball iq-court vision and teams packed with great role players and superstars per team he would dominate!: imagine building a team built on a Rebounder, Shot Blocker and Athletic Freak as Strong as Wilt with a Great Fadeaway to good with that.
Kareem in the late 90s and 2000s with current ruels it would be laughable..to control his SPEED AND SKILL SET. A 7`3 with the SKILL SET OF A SF! Shooting, Jump Shot, Hooks, Layups and Dunks...GO loo kat Kareem`s head nearly touching the basket on a rebound when he was 21-22 at 7`3!
:confusedshrug: [/B][/QUOTE]
Sir Charles I must admit we agree . WIlt would be everything D Howard is and more. a more consistant scorer and would not get outplayed by taller Centers.
Kareem would be doing everything yao is supposed to be doing on a night in night out basis IF kareem was playing to day you could bet he would have been past the first round several times
[QUOTE=Niquesports]Sir Charles I must admit we agree . WIlt would be everything D Howard is and more. a more consistant scorer and would not get outplayed by taller Centers.
Kareem would be doing everything yao is supposed to be doing on a night in night out basis IF kareem was playing to day you could bet he would have been past the first round several times[/QUOTE]
[B]Wilt`s Rebounding Capacity, Shooting Touch, B-Ball IQ, Passing Game, Stamina is way above Howard`s....way above..:rolleyes:
Yao?...Yao would get Owned by a Prime Kareem....:rolleyes:
Undertoday`s Rules Yao would get fouled out by the Second Quarter...
Kareem had trouble with bulky stocky players that could rebound..like Moses or Howard...but he would just settle for Scoring and Passing...like he did passed his pime in the 80s. Kareem`s Passing Game is Just Out of this World too and would get his teamates better involved than any big man. Only Duncan is compareble today in that aspect today.
Kareem = Most Offensively Skilled Center Ever...:bowdown: [/B]
[QUOTE=indiefan23]Whom? I seriously doubt anyone would sign a 48 year old Chamberlian for anything but a publicity stunt. But I'm interested.[/QUOTE]
The Cavs in the early 80's and the Nets in the mid-80's. And I'm not sure it would have been a publicity stunt. Apparently, in the early 80's, he dominated a pick-up game that included NBA players, even Magic Johnson. He said something like "There will be no lay-ups in this gym" and then he blocked a ton of shots. Years after he retired, in his mid-40s ...
[QUOTE=indiefan23]Yea, I'm pretty sure. Elgin Baylor at 6'5" pulled down 19.8 boards a game.[/QUOTE]
I've never said Elgin Baylor would be successful in today's league. Obviously he would be way too undersized. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a great rebounder. He was undersized even back then. Not every 6'5 guys pulled down that many rebounds. He was like a Dennis Rodman. Let's say Rodman played in that era and pulled down 25-28 rebounds. You'd say there would be no way he would dominate in the 90's, or that Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing or Mutombo would have done better. But he outrebounded every one of those guys. He won the rebounding title 7 straight years with those guys in the league, sometimes by a comfortable margin, even in his mid-30s and he was only 6'7.
The fact that Baylor was one of the greatest rebounders of his era doesn't mean it was a weak era or anything. Size isn't everything when it comes to rebounding. Just look at some recent dominating rebounders : Dwight Howard, Marcus Camby, Kevin Garnett, Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, Moses Malone. None of those guys are over 7 feet. And they each won at least one rebounding title. With guys significantly taller than them in the league. How many rebounding titles Yao Ming, Manute Bol or Gheorghe Muresan have ?
Wilt dominating the boards in his era had nothing to do with him being taller than most guys around him. Or else Yao would be dominating right now. Or Elgin Baylor would have lost the rebounding battle every single night. Wilt was just a great rebounder. Let me say it again : In his last season in the league, during the 72-73 season, his rebounding rate was the same as Tim Duncan's career high (19.6%). All right let's say the competition was easier then that it is now. He was 35-36 years old. Clearly not in his prime. So now take a prime Wilt. I suppose his rebounding rate goes significantly up (there's no data for this). High enough to offset the difference in level of competition between then and now. There's nothing you can say that can prove Duncan would outrebound Wilt.
Have you seen some clips of Wilt ? The guy would be one of the most, if not THE most, athletic guys in the league. Do you really think he could play today and not dominate ? At least on the boards ? The 2nd and 3rd best rebounder in terms of rebounds per game this year were Troy Murphy and David Lee ... In rebound rate, they finished 4th and 7th. Kevin Love finished 2nd. Do you really think Wilt couldn't do better than that ?
[QUOTE=Mikaiel]
I've never said Elgin Baylor would be successful in today's league. Obviously he would be way too undersized. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a great rebounder. He was undersized even back then. Not every 6'5 guys pulled down that many rebounds. He was like a Dennis Rodman. Let's say Rodman played in that era and pulled down 25-28 rebounds. You'd say there would be no way he would dominate in the 90's, or that Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing or Mutombo would have done better. But he outrebounded every one of those guys. He won the rebounding title 7 straight years with those guys in the league, sometimes by a comfortable margin, even in his mid-30s and he was only 6'7.
The fact that Baylor was one of the greatest rebounders of his era doesn't mean it was a weak era or anything. Size isn't everything when it comes to rebounding. Just look at some recent dominating rebounders : Dwight Howard, Marcus Camby, Kevin Garnett, Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, Moses Malone. None of those guys are over 7 feet.
Wilt dominating the boards in his era had nothing to do with him being taller than most guys around him. Or else Yao would be dominating right now. Or Elgin Baylor would have lost the rebounding battle every single night. Wilt was just a great rebounder. Let me say it again : In his last season in the league, during the 72-73 season, his rebounding rate was the same as Tim Duncan's career high (19.6%). All right let's say the competition was easier then that it is now. He was 35-36 years old. Clearly not in his prime. So now take a prime Wilt. I suppose his rebounding rate goes significantly up (there's no data for this). High enough to offset the difference in level of competition between then and now. There's nothing you can say that can prove Duncan would outrebound Wilt.
Have you seen some clips of Wilt ? The guy would be one of the most, if not THE most, athletic guys in the league. Do you really think he could play today and not dominate ? At least on the boards ? The 2nd and 3rd best rebounder in terms of rebounds per game this year were Troy Murphy and David Lee ... In rebound rate, they finished 4th and 7th. Kevin Love finished 2nd. Do you really think Wilt couldn't do better than that ?[/QUOTE]
:applause:
Only four(4) true 7 footers have even won rebound titles in the Leagues history:eek: :
Wilt(11 or 12)
Kareem(1)
Robinson(1)
Mutumbo(2 ?)
Height/size isn't the only thing involved in rebounding(ask Dennis Rodman).
Even at 19 rebounds per game in'61 Baylor was still not a top three rebounder when it came to boards per game:confusedshrug: A very good rebounder ,but not dominate like Wilt/Russell.
Not much else to add to that post.
[QUOTE=Mikaiel]The Cavs in the early 80's and the Nets in the mid-80's. And I'm not sure it would have been a publicity stunt. Apparently, in the early 80's, he dominated a pick-up game that included NBA players, even Magic Johnson. He said something like "There will be no lay-ups in this gym" and then he blocked a ton of shots. Years after he retired, in his mid-40s ...[/quote]
Hmm... I dunno man. Its totally possible of course. I think Bill Simmons wrote about this phenomenon though. Its a little wishy washy but there's a lot to it. If I played MJ would I embarrass my childhood idol and remind him that while he's the GOAT now he's a broken down old man shell of who is not relevant anymore? I wouldn't. Could Nique get layups on a 48 year old Wilt. I think so. When you play old men or children you show some class. Not to say its impossible, but at 45 your body has broken down. I still think thats a stunt.
[quote]I've never said Elgin Baylor would be successful in today's league. Obviously he would be way too undersized. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a great rebounder. He was undersized even back then. Not every 6'5 guys pulled down that many rebounds. He was like a Dennis Rodman. Let's say Rodman played in that era and pulled down 25-28 rebounds. You'd say there would be no way he would dominate in the 90's, or that Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing or Mutombo would have done better. But he outrebounded every one of those guys. He won the rebounding title 7 straight years with those guys in the league, sometimes by a comfortable margin, even in his mid-30s and he was only 6'7.[/quote]
Yea, but Dennis focused only on boarding. Don't get me wrong: he's one of my fav players ever and maybe one of the most under rated ever. For a guy to approach a 40/20 season at 6'5", yea, I think Baylor could absolutely play in the NBA's peak. But what would his numbers be like? Remember that Baylor was in 5'th at almost 20 boards a game so for being a great rebounder he was average. Lets look at Rodman's best season on the bulls in 96/97. He pulled down 16.1 boards. #2 was Mutombo at 11.6. That year Wilt had 27.2 boards.
So if we were to translate Rodman's proportion to that season he will have averaged 16.1/11.6*27.2=37.7 boards a game. Wilt pulled down 27.2 BPG and because of that I recgonize he was massively above his era and I give him credit as one of the few players who could contribute in a significant way to the NBA at it's 90's peak. If Rodman was averaging almost 38 rebounds a game and outclassing his competition to that level. Could Rodman pull down almost 40 a game then? Probably. Wilt had 27.2 playing almost 13 more minutes and 25 more possessions against mostly undersized competition.
If Wilt gets credit for approaching 30, Rodman absolutly gets cred for 40 and I'm sure there are people who will say I'm assuming Wilt is second and the way I did it is dubious. They've got a point, but it won't be nearly as strong as they think.
Even if you only adjust for minutes alone, not the 25 extra possessions OR the incredibly weaker/undersized competition, Wilt's numbers come down to 20.14 BPG which is only 4 rebounds off what Rodman did in the 90's when only adjusting for their minutes. Likewise if Rodman played 47.8 minutes he would have grabbed 25 boards a game in 96.
Rodman is the best rebounder of all time and if he went back he would destroy Wilt, I'm sorry to say. If not in head to head matchups (though I doubt this: Rodman owned Shaq on multiple occasions) then statistically it would be pure and raw ownage and I would look at his play and numbers and say "yea, that guy could board in today's league."
But a big thing is that rebounding wasn't really the same in those days. Watch the tape and they're not even really boxing out on free throws or put a body on bigs in the paint. Also who can play 48 minutes a game today? When you're defending players like Allen Iverson you're going to pick up fouls. I always thought that never fouling out was Wilt's greatest acomplishment. Then I saw tape and realized that with players not really boxing out or playing physicial defense or DWade types crashing into the lane it really was not that big a deal.
And like I was saying, while you admit players then would have difficulty there's lots of people in this thread who claim not only that they'd be able to be the same, but that they'd be better then today's players.
[quote]The fact that Baylor was one of the greatest rebounders of his era doesn't mean it was a weak era or anything. Size isn't everything when it comes to rebounding. Just look at some recent dominating rebounders : Dwight Howard, Marcus Camby, Kevin Garnett, Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, Moses Malone. None of those guys are over 7 feet. And they each won at least one rebounding title. With guys significantly taller than them in the league. How many rebounding titles Yao Ming, Manute Bol or Gheorghe Muresan have ?[/quote]
Yea, but they're all an inch or two away with the exception of Barkley who was a ridiculously strong player. A 6'5" guy getting 20 boards indicates that size didn't matter so much and if not that then at least the stats are inflated. My whole point was that Yao, Gheorghe and Bol probably could have pulled off rebounding titles in the 70's but had no shot later. Across the board its evened out.
[quote]Wilt dominating the boards in his era had nothing to do with him being taller than most guys around him.[/quote]
Sorry, I watch the game. Wilt is taller and people are not even attempting to force him out of the lane. He jumped, reaches over top and because he was the only one up there he grabbed the ball. His size had everything to do with it. You can see him doing this countless times on the tape.
[quote]Or else Yao would be dominating right now. Or Elgin Baylor would have lost the rebounding battle every single night. Wilt was just a great rebounder. Let me say it again : In his last season in the league, during the 72-73 season, his rebounding rate was the same as Tim Duncan's career high (19.6%).[/quote]
I'm not even suggesting he was bad. I'm just saying his stats are inflated. At that time the ABA was kicking up and he still outsized everyone. I don't even care if Kareem was in the league. I mean, how blatantly stupid an argument is that? Kareem was in the eastern conference so Wilt played him twice a year for 4 years. Guys on this thread are raging about how dumb I am based on the fact that Wilt and Kareem matched up 8 times out of Wilt's 1045 NBA games and I don't think that means much. I mean, I've heard people spount ad nauseam that Wilt went against greats such as Kareem, Unseld and Dave Cowens, 3 others from the top 5 that year. But in reality Wilt only faced those guys 6 times total out of 82 games each year.
[quote]All right let's say the competition was easier then that it is now. He was 35-36 years old. Clearly not in his prime. So now take a prime Wilt. I suppose his rebounding rate goes significantly up (there's no data for this). High enough to offset the difference in level of competition between then and now. There's nothing you can say that can prove Duncan would outrebound Wilt.[/quote]
Where are you getting Wilt's rebound rate from anyway? I didn't think stats on rebound % existed then. Unless you mean per 36 minutes, but if you do Wilt's per minute stats are not as good as Duncans anyway. soo.....
I think you're understating competition here. I'm 6'2". When I'm playing people who are like, 5'11" I can own them. When Wilt was 7'1", athletic and the league's premier boarders were 6'5-6'9", its a MASSIVE difference. I dunno, I saw Duncan totally handle Shaq on both ends of the floor. I see no reason why he wouldn't do freakishly better in a league so much slower and less athletic then he is.
[quote]Have you seen some clips of Wilt ? The guy would be one of the most, if not THE most, athletic guys in the league. Do you really think he could play today and not dominate ? At least on the boards ? The 2nd and 3rd best rebounder in terms of rebounds per game this year were Troy Murphy and David Lee ... In rebound rate, they finished 4th and 7th. Kevin Love finished 2nd. Do you really think Wilt couldn't do better than that ?[/QUOTE]
I think he could play today, sure. But he's not more athletic then Shaq. He's not more athletic then Camby in his prime. He's has nothing close to Dream's polish. He played a leauge of players who mostly would not make the NBA today. In today's (or 90's, is what I mean most) league you can jump out of the gym and be 7 feet, but if you're latteral movement is slow you'll get killed so you ride pine. The margin of error is so slim. For bigs the pounding they put on their bodies so much me intense. The training so much more scientific. Would Wilt 'dominate'?
I don't think so. I think he'd be good. If we put Wilt into a time machine and stuck him in a game vs prime Shaq this is what would happen. Shaq's enormously powerful and agile ass attached to his 350 lb body would swing back and knock Wilt into the stands and Wilt would wonder what in the name of hell just happened cuz people just didn't do that to him before. No one tried and no one in the history of the game was even capable.
And since I've had all these bull crap 'character' arguments thrown at me, I'm going to say he'd be much worse. Wilt, if anything, was an egomaniac. How would 'he' react to the pressures and temptations of being a massive celebrity, being offered movie deals, asked to present grammys, staring in commercials and generally making 1000's of times the amount of cash any normal person makes instead of just a few times it? I know what would happen. He would fold. Wilt claimed he slept with 20,000 women and you think he's going to handle all that attention? Wilt would go Kanye West in about 1 year and be enormously distracted. Its not a knock, he's just human. In all honestly, its probably those things that got to him before that prevented him from winning more titles.
[QUOTE=Niquesports]IF you are older than 35 I will respect your opinion because at the least you saw Centers like
kareem
Moses Malone
Unseld
Reed
Cowens
Sam LAcy
Bob Lanier
Walton
Alivn Adams
Jack Sikma
Play not to mention the Big bodies of Clifford Ray and Tom Bowinkile then after the merger you had Dan issell , Artis Gilmore and Billy patluz this just off the top of my head. But my point isnt if the 70's Centers were better than the 80's C but that they were better than todays C.[/QUOTE]
I'll give you today's centers but add the caveat that with the rule changes we really don't know what they'd be like. Those were so drastic: they're altered who's a good center to the point where being really big is a limiting factor. Agility is much more important as you can't camp out in the lane anymore. Yao for instance would have been MUCH more signifigant in the 90's and 80's. His size in 2000's hurts him. Are the 70's centers better then today's? I'm not sure because the postiion of center has changed almost to a power forward as the league has essentially forced everyone to play some style of small ball.
[QUOTE=32jazz]:applause:
Only four(4) true 7 footers have even won rebound titles in the Leagues history:eek: :
Wilt(11 or 12)
Kareem(1)
Robinson(1)
Mutumbo(2 ?)
Height/size isn't the only thing involved in rebounding(ask Dennis Rodman).
Even at 19 rebounds per game in'61 Baylor was still not a top three rebounder when it came to boards per game:confusedshrug: A very good rebounder ,but not dominate like Wilt/Russell.
Not much else to add to that post.[/QUOTE]
Hmm... so of the 16 7 footer boarding titles you're telling me that 13 of them, or 81%, occurred when I'm saying being big while everyone else was small inflated your stats? Thanks for joining the team 32 Jazz.
PS: I hate Karl Malone. ;0
[QUOTE=Abraham Lincoln]My fellow wise man, this be all but the mere creedence of thought which thou shan't allow to all but cease to exist. Alas, this be the mere soul of the unwise man whom Dwight Howard be considered to most dominant player in league history to.
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129071&page=9[/url][/QUOTE]
Ye 'ol Abe. Thou dost not read the disclaimer print. Ye be a dumb ass.
Disclaimer:
3. Only having access to stats from 1986 on I know this leaves players out of the mix. Honestly however basketball before this time was a different game. Sorry if it offends you but Wilt and Russel would not be anywhere near the players they were after 1986 on. That's my opinion I suppose, and I cede that on sheer dominance, Wilt would blow Dwight away on these lists, but I litterally don't have the resources to show that era's stats or I would. So this is really just about the more modern era of ball. On with it!
[QUOTE=32jazz]
No doubt that the 'Centers' of the 60's/70's are better than Centers of today. I do admit the talent & ability at the swing positions(SG/SF) is definitely better today OVERALL than in the 60's/70's.
[/quote]
Heh, wow. Okay, so if that's so much better do you really think Wilt stays on the court for 48 minutes a game? I don't at all and its a big part of why I don't think Wilt's performance against slow guards who can't jump or dribble counts for as much as you're saying. Not only could other centers not out rebound Wilt, but guards had almost 0 chance. Today, MJ or Carter would be able to get up to Wilt's level and snatch boards, get fouls. I don't know what the net effect of that is on Wilt's game but this thread is comprised mostly of people who say it would have no effect at all.
[QUOTE=Niquesports]Sir Charles I must admit we agree . WIlt would be everything D Howard is and more. a more consistant scorer and would not get outplayed by taller Centers.
Kareem would be doing everything yao is supposed to be doing on a night in night out basis IF kareem was playing to day you could bet he would have been past the first round several times[/QUOTE]
Hmm... what do you base that on? Which bigger centers did Wilt ever play against?
Heh, if Kareem had to put as much strain on his body as Yao did, and Kareem had 3 serious injuries because of that in his first 6 years playing, are you making this point now? Yep, I thought so. I mean, come on. You guys don't even try to make sane analogizes.
[QUOTE=indiefan23]Hmm... I dunno man. Its totally possible of course. I think Bill Simmons wrote about this phenomenon though. Its a little wishy washy but there's a lot to it. If I played MJ would I embarrass my childhood idol and remind him that while he's the GOAT now he's a broken down old man shell of who is not relevant anymore? I wouldn't. Could Nique get layups on a 48 year old Wilt. I think so. When you play old men or children you show some class. Not to say its impossible, but at 45 your body has broken down. I still think thats a stunt.[/QUOTE]
Have you seen how ridiculously in shape Wilt was ? The man ran in a marathon and a 50-mile race when he was 60 years old ...
[QUOTE]Rodman is the best rebounder of all time and if he went back he would destroy Wilt, [/QUOTE]
I've never said I thought Wilt was a better rebounder than Rodman. I think Rodman is the best rebounder of all time, and also one of the most underrated player ever.
[QUOTE]Sorry, I watch the game. Wilt is taller and people are not even attempting to force him out of the lane. He jumped, reaches over top and because he was the only one up there he grabbed the ball. His size had everything to do with it. You can see him doing this countless times on the tape.[/QUOTE]
So if size mattered that much, how come Baylor was a good rebounder back then ? By your logic, taller guys should have come up with the ball more often than not ...
[QUOTE]I don't even care if Kareem was in the league. I mean, how blatantly stupid an argument is that? Kareem was in the eastern conference so Wilt played him twice a year for 4 years. Guys on this thread are raging about how dumb I am based on the fact that Wilt and Kareem matched up 8 times out of Wilt's 1045 NBA games and I don't think that means much. I mean, I've heard people spount ad nauseam that Wilt went against greats such as Kareem, Unseld and Dave Cowens, 3 others from the top 5 that year. But in reality Wilt only faced those guys 6 times total out of 82 games each year.[/QUOTE]
WTF ? :wtf: What kind of an argument is that ? You do know Wilt outrebounded Kareem when they played together right ? They played against the same competition, and he was pulling down more rebounds. While clearly out of his prime. And Kareem was in physical prime too. The "he only played against him twice a year" argument doesn't make any sense. Shaq only faced Hakeem twice a year when he was in the East. Dwight only plays Duncan or Yao twice a year. Dwight actually has more games against Jeff Foster, Zaza Pachulia, Kendrick Perkins, Andrew Bogut or Brendan Haywood than against Shaq, Duncan or Yao. So what ?
[QUOTE]Where are you getting Wilt's rebound rate from anyway?[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/[/url]
[QUOTE]Unless you mean per 36 minutes[/QUOTE]
That stat doesn't rely on pace or minutes played.
[QUOTE]But he's not more athletic then Shaq. He's not more athletic then Camby in his prime. He's has nothing close to Dream's polish.[/QUOTE]
1. Shaq didn't have anything close to Dream's polish, but Shaq was arguably the better player. No one can come close today to Kobe's polish, but LeBron is considered just as good as him or even better by a lot of people. Same thing with Wade.
2. I don't really like to talk about athleticsm. There are so many variables. So many different ways you can be considered athletic. How are you supposed to compare Jordan's athleticsm to Shaq's for example ? Or Jordan's and LeBron's ? What matters is that they all could do dominate the game physically, and Wilt could do it too. There's never been a guy like Wilt in this league. He was strong as hell, could run like crazy, had incredible stamina, could jump out of the gym. What more do you want ?
3. Not more athletic than prime Camby ? WTF ?
Indiefan23,
Are you just trying to increase your post count by posting 10 straight posts in the one thread? Just put it all in one post. :banghead:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=849_WdqJ8o8&feature=related[/url]
:bowdown:
[QUOTE=Sir Charles][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=849_WdqJ8o8&feature=related[/url]
:bowdown:[/QUOTE]
Can you just get it all out of the way in one ****ing Wilt thread?!? Did you just find out about him or something?:mad: :banghead:
[QUOTE=Sir Charles][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=849_WdqJ8o8&feature=related[/url]
:bowdown:[/QUOTE]
My absolute favborite sequence is at 2:28 & 2:38. Here Wilt rejects Kareems skyhook back to back in one(1) possession.
Most centers Karrem played (Olajuwon/Ewing/Parish....) would be lucky to get their hands on Kareem's shyhook once in their careers let alone twice(2) in one sequence & that was an older/injured Wilt.
Wilt would also hold most Blocked shot records had they kept the stat when he was playing. They only starting keeping it the season after he retired unfortunately.
Shame Wilt played like ass in the playoffs, where its gets tough, only averaging 22ppg and winning 2 chips.
[QUOTE=db23]Shame Wilt played like ass in the playoffs, where its gets tough, only averaging 22ppg and winning 2 chips.[/QUOTE]
Winning two finals MVP's?:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=32jazz]Winning two finals MVP's?:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Nobody belongs in Goat talks with only 2 chips.
There's a couple of goaltendings in there, but overall a very fun mix to watch.
[QUOTE=db23]Nobody belongs in Goat talks with only 2 chips.[/QUOTE]
Where in this thread was he called GOAT B***ch? :confusedshrug:
There are other threads if you wish not to speak of Wilt's 'shot blocking abilities' which is what this thread is about.
You've been a good troll.:applause: Now Go away.