30 minute Lebron video and a totally statless case for him to be top 20 ever. Today.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Wade is equal to or better than Nash, Dirk, Malone, Iverson and probably right there with Kobe and maybe Garnett in 04. None of them were just a mile beyond Wade as players. due partly to teams they had more MVP worthy seasons I suppose. But Wade is without a doubt one of the greatest players of all time and currently better than a number of the top 50 as of 97. I loved Clyde drexler but he wasnt better than Wade. Nor was Nique(who should have been top 50). Or Stockton. Gary PAyton wasnt top 50 but hes a HOF player...not better than Wade. Wade like Lebron and Kobe is top 40, maybe top 30, and would get taken over some of the top 20 if people want to be honest with themselves about the word "Best".

Elite....ive seen Malone listed anywhere from 6'8'' to 9...and 250-270. about the same as Lebron or less depending on when in his career you mean.

And what is "He never shot over 49%" even saying? A swingman shooting 49% isnt enough?

And while Lebron lost with a 66 win team hes yet to pull a Malone and lose with a 60 win team in the first round. Or multiple 50 win teams in the first. Karl Malone did not have it in him to take over a game like the one vs the Pistons where he scored 31 of the last 33 and just rained jumpers from everywhere. EH wasnt a "Give him the ball and get out of the way" scorer you could rely on like that. Which is why Stockton was often the closer. Not that you didnt know that....
[/QUOTE]
Jeeze, you really hate Malone for some reason, He obviously wasn't clutch, and the only real problem I've ever had with Sloans coaching was giving him the ball in the last minutes to much (And still playing kirilenko, but...... I just plain hate Kirilenko) but every time the Jazz lost they lost to a better team, (except maybe 95 rockets, and 01 Mavs, but thats only 2 outs like 18 straight stockton Malone playoffs) Also I find it hard to believe that Lebron is really as big as Malone......just look at them
[IMG]http://johnjohnsaidit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/karl-malone.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0706/gallery.nba.lebron.james.action/images/lebron-james-2009-01-23.jpg[/IMG]

.... Is it really even possible? I'm guessing Malone was in the low 280's, Lebrons looks like hes in the low 260's. You can't really trust the listings.

maybe lebron had bigger legs dunno or maybe malone is 270-280

[QUOTE=inclinerator]maybe lebron had bigger legs dunno or maybe malone is 270-280[/QUOTE]


They never updated the height and weight listing on Basketball Reference.com, and NBA.com

LeBron was already 245 lbs. in his rookie season.

[QUOTE]every time the Jazz lost they lost to a better team, (except maybe 95 rockets, and 01 Mavs, but thats only 2 outs like 18 straight stockton Malone playoffs) [/QUOTE]

Nah. I only checked until 92 and I found 3 years already that they lost to a team with a worse record. And then they lose in the first round with a 61 win team in 95. They had a better record than the Blazers too. And the Mavs you mentioned. he lost in the first round with 6 teams that won 47-61 games.

And LebronI think they said was 6'9'' 278 at his biggest last year. Malone supposed to be 250-265 pounds. Id buy 270+ as well. Depends on when. He played a long time and in 20 years your weight is gonna change. Lebron is at least the size of late 80s early 90s Malone.

Thank you KBlaze for building such a great case here. The same can be said about Wade for most players to, but Wade is not as indiidually spectacular as LeBron is. There are very few players that I would take over LeBron to start a franchise.

Jordan
Shaq
Duncan
Wilt
Russell
Magic maybe
KAJ

and I feel like I may have left out one. That is it that you can honestly say you would take over LeBron James to start a team with.

KBlaze, How do you feel about Bill Russell, people constantly call him overrated because of his lack of offensive game, Tell me how you feel about him.

I'll copy something I said a while back

[QUOTE]Bill Russell was the best player on 11 title teams. This guy won 8 titles in a row. He got 30 rebounds or more the last 3 games of the 59 finals. In game 7 of the 60 finals he had 22 points and 35 rebounds. He had 30 points and 38 rebounds to close out the 61 finals. He had 30 points and 40(yes...40) rebounds in the OT game 7 win vs the Lakers in the 62 finals. He was just under a triple double to close out the 63 finals with 12/24/9 assists. In 65 he had 22 points and 30 rebounds to win the title also setting the finals record for shooting percentage over 70%. Next year? Game 7....2 point win...25 points...32 rebounds. He had 26 rebounds/6 assists in the last game of his career. A game 7 win on the road. In 11 win or go home final games of a tied series of any kind...hes 11-0. the guy only lost two playoff series of any kind from age 15 to 35 and he was injured and out in one of them(second season in the finals). HS titles. 2 NCAA titles. Gold medal. 11 NBA titles. **** he even COACHED two of the teams to NBA titles.

Bill Russell is likely the greatest and most consistient big game player in basketball history and the crazy thing is his greatest impact cant even be measured. And he did it all in a town that by most accounts didnt even respect him. Break into the mans house because he moved into a white neighborhod. Pathetic.

Bill russell went hard for 20 years winning at a rate never seen before or since.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Kobe had at least 24 games of under 40% shooting last year and I dont think the season had ended at the time. Ben Gordon at the time had 21. Lebron had 8. Lebrons style of play just isnt gonna produce as many bad nights as Kobes. Kobe takes bad shots compared to Lebron. Is that even up for debate?[/QUOTE]
Last 4 years in playoffs over nearly the same # of games, Lebron has 20 games under 40% shooting (a third of all games he has played!) while Kobe has 15. If that's your measure of consistency then it's not proving anything. Kobe's shot selection tightens up in the playoffs by the way. Lebron's flaky jumper makes him prone to just as many bad shooting nights. The 2% difference in their FG% can pretty much be accounted by Lebron getting more fast break dunks (younger, quicker so he can get those steals), but in a half court setting? I bet their efficiency is identical.

It's just funny that you keep West/Baylor on the list and take Kobe off...makes no sense.

You speak of consistency while disregarding the largest sample size in favor of matchups that represent what a guy does for a matter of weeks(or in Kobes case sometimes one week)? The playoffs matter more but when we are comparing players vs two totally different groups of opponents(with 2 exceptions) on very different teams? In the playoffs a team can focus all it has on one player depending on what his teammates can do to make the mpay. You know in game 7 vs the Pistons in 06 Lebron scored himself or assisted on all but 7 shots the Cavs made? The entire team aside from him managed to get 7 shots into the basket. We have seen in the playoffs Lebron(and Kobe on occasion) get doubled all game just daring the others to win the game. Lebron next game after he scored the 29 in a row was as doubled as any non bigman ive ever seen. Kobe got some right across halfcourt doubles vs the suns. Teams totally change how they play a guy in the playoffs over 6-7 games. Its not an accurate idea of what a guy does night in night out in the NBA.

In 08 Kobe shot under 40% 30 times. 24 in 07. 26 in 06. He managed it 23 times in just 66 games in 05 while Lebron coming into the season at age 19 did it 13 times in 80 games. Kobe damn near doubled him up in fewer games.

Lebron had 13 this year, 17 in 08, 29 in 07 and 18 in 06 . The only year he surpassed Kobe he played 20 playoff games to get there while Kobe went out in the first round(Kobe played an extra 7 this year.). And in 06 Kobe is out first round while Lebron plays 13 playoff games and still cant catch up.

I dont even see how this is an argument. We all see how they play. Kobes game is based on his jumper falling. As good as he is you just cant rely on that the way you can Lebron getting to the basket.

And thats not even the entire reason id rather have Lebron.

I dont see much of a reason to go with Kobe really.Lebron has been roughly as good or a better defender for 2 years. Hes a better passer(not to be confused with just getting assists). Ive heard little drama and few claims of him being difficult with teammates. Worst ive heard of Lebron was Gooden jokingly saying that in Chicago they share the ball. Then as he got the ball more he started to suck...Bulls fans hated him...and he ends up on the Spurs(5th team in 7 years) getting 8 minutes total over 2 playoff games.....anyway. Kobe is better at making difficult shots but I dont value the making of bad shots over the making of easy ones when I can rely on those shots. Not talking about a Dwight easy shot like a dunk that you cant really predict. You can give Lebron the ball...move out of his way...and he will score or get fouled at a fantastic rate. Its almost a lock.

hes the most individually dominant and unstoppable swingman ive seen since Jordan in his youth and if he isnt...Wade is. I can see someone saying Kobe is better or more skilled but not more effective.

Sure he won the title but he did so on the most talented team in the league. Wade won it all on a team with less than Kobe had to work with. And Lebron led a finals team that had no more talent than the ones Kobe missed the playoffs with and lost in the first round. The only player aside from Bron on the Cavs 07 roster id even take on the Bulls right now(in 07 form even) is Z. Gibson when thej umper is falling but really...hes the Bulls #3 guard at best.

The Cavs team he took to the finals was simply abominable(by finals team standards). Really....would you rather have the entire 07 Cavs supporting cast or just the second best player from any finals team of the last 5 years?

Gasol
Pierce
Lewis
Parker
Howard
Billups/Ben Wallace
Shaq/Kobe(questionable by 2004)


Josh Howard is the only second option id even consider trading for their whole 07 roster...and id end up saying no just to dodge Larry Hughes. Larry Hughes managed to shoot 31 and 35% in back to back playoffs....

Lebron did work with a lottery team. And he just led another one to the most wins ever by a team with nearly that little talent to work with. Dirk didnt have a huge amount but give me Howard and terry over the entire Cavs roster. They arent even talented on defense as some claim. Ben Wallace is pushing 60 and anderson is a talented defender as is West but really...they more talented on D than the Bulls with Hinrich, Hunter, Tyrus, Deng, and Noah? More than the Bobcats were with Wallace, Emeka, and Raja?

The Cavs arent expecially good at anything but giving the ball to Lebron to win them games.

That hes done what he has wit hthose teams gives me little reason to doubt he could win with almost anything I give him to work with. A guy who can get to the basket as if nothing is in his way is always easy to build around. Give him 2 shooters and 2 bigmen who can catch and you can win games.

Lebron just seems like a far better pick to start a team...even throwing out age.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]You speak of consistency while disregarding the largest sample size in favor of matchups that represent what a guy does for a matter of weeks(or in Kobes case sometimes one week)? The playoffs matter more but when we are comparing players vs two totally different groups of opponents(with 2 exceptions) on very different teams? In the playoffs a team can focus all it has on one player depending on what his teammates can do to make the mpay. You know in game 7 vs the Pistons in 06 Lebron scored himself or assisted on all but 7 shots the Cavs made? The entire team aside from him managed to get 7 shots into the basket. We have seen in the playoffs Lebron(and Kobe on occasion) get doubled all game just daring the others to win the game. Lebron next game after he scored the 29 in a row was as doubled as any non bigman ive ever seen. Kobe got some right across halfcourt doubles vs the suns. Teams totally change how they play a guy in the playoffs over 6-7 games. Its not an accurate idea of what a guy does night in night out in the NBA.

In 08 Kobe shot under 40% 30 times. 24 in 07. 26 in 06. He managed it 23 times in just 66 games in 05 while Lebron coming into the season at age 19 did it 13 times in 80 games. Kobe damn near doubled him up in fewer games.

Lebron had 13 this year, 17 in 08, 29 in 07 and 18 in 06 . The only year he surpassed Kobe he played 20 playoff games to get there while Kobe went out in the first round(Kobe played an extra 7 this year.). And in 06 Kobe is out first round while Lebron plays 13 playoff games and still cant catch up.

I dont even see how this is an argument. We all see how they play. Kobes game is based on his jumper falling. As good as he is you just cant rely on that the way you can Lebron getting to the basket.

And thats not even the entire reason id rather have Lebron.

I dont see much of a reason to go with Kobe really.Lebron has been roughly as good or a better defender for 2 years. Hes a better passer(not to be confused with just getting assists). Ive heard little drama and few claims of him being difficult with teammates. Worst ive heard of Lebron was Gooden jokingly saying that in Chicago they share the ball. Then as he got the ball more he started to suck...Bulls fans hated him...and he ends up on the Spurs(5th team in 7 years) getting 8 minutes total over 2 playoff games.....anyway. Kobe is better at making difficult shots but I dont value the making of bad shots over the making of easy ones when I can rely on those shots. Not talking about a Dwight easy shot like a dunk that you cant really predict. You can give Lebron the ball...move out of his way...and he will score or get fouled at a fantastic rate. Its almost a lock.

hes the most individually dominant and unstoppable swingman ive seen since Jordan in his youth and if he isnt...Wade is. I can see someone saying Kobe is better or more skilled but not more effective.

Sure he won the title but he did so on the most talented team in the league. Wade won it all on a team with less than Kobe had to work with. And Lebron led a finals team that had no more talent than the ones Kobe missed the playoffs with and lost in the first round. The only player aside from Bron on the Cavs 07 roster id even take on the Bulls right now(in 07 form even) is Z. Gibson when thej umper is falling but really...hes the Bulls #3 guard at best.

The Cavs team he took to the finals was simply abominable(by finals team standards). Really....would you rather have the entire 07 Cavs supporting cast or just the second best player from any finals team of the last 5 years?

Gasol
Pierce
Lewis
Parker
Howard
Billups/Ben Wallace
Shaq/Kobe(questionable by 2004)


Josh Howard is the only second option id even consider trading for their whole 07 roster...and id end up saying no just to dodge Larry Hughes. Larry Hughes managed to shoot 31 and 35% in back to back playoffs....

Lebron did work with a lottery team. And he just led another one to the most wins ever by a team with nearly that little talent to work with. Dirk didnt have a huge amount but give me Howard and terry over the entire Cavs roster. They arent even talented on defense as some claim. Ben Wallace is pushing 60 and anderson is a talented defender as is West but really...they more talented on D than the Bulls with Hinrich, Hunter, Tyrus, Deng, and Noah? More than the Bobcats were with Wallace, Emeka, and Raja?

The Cavs arent expecially good at anything but giving the ball to Lebron to win them games.

That hes done what he has wit hthose teams gives me little reason to doubt he could win with almost anything I give him to work with. A guy who can get to the basket as if nothing is in his way is always easy to build around. Give him 2 shooters and 2 bigmen who can catch and you can win games.

Lebron just seems like a far better pick to start a team...even throwing out age.[/QUOTE]

:bowdown: :cheers: Love how the morons(CantStop/Megatron, Fatal9, Alpha Wolf, etc.) can't respond to this. Awesome post.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]You speak of consistency while disregarding the largest sample size in favor of matchups that represent what a guy does for a matter of weeks(or in Kobes case sometimes one week)? The playoffs matter more but when we are comparing players vs two totally different groups of opponents(with 2 exceptions) on very different teams? In the playoffs a team can focus all it has on one player depending on what his teammates can do to make the mpay. You know in game 7 vs the Pistons in 06 Lebron scored himself or assisted on all but 7 shots the Cavs made? The entire team aside from him managed to get 7 shots into the basket. We have seen in the playoffs Lebron(and Kobe on occasion) get doubled all game just daring the others to win the game. Lebron next game after he scored the 29 in a row was as doubled as any non bigman ive ever seen. Kobe got some right across halfcourt doubles vs the suns. Teams totally change how they play a guy in the playoffs over 6-7 games. Its not an accurate idea of what a guy does night in night out in the NBA.

In 08 Kobe shot under 40% 30 times. 24 in 07. 26 in 06. He managed it 23 times in just 66 games in 05 while Lebron coming into the season at age 19 did it 13 times in 80 games. Kobe damn near doubled him up in fewer games.

Lebron had 13 this year, 17 in 08, 29 in 07 and 18 in 06 . The only year he surpassed Kobe he played 20 playoff games to get there while Kobe went out in the first round(Kobe played an extra 7 this year.). And in 06 Kobe is out first round while Lebron plays 13 playoff games and still cant catch up.

I dont even see how this is an argument. We all see how they play. Kobes game is based on his jumper falling. As good as he is you just cant rely on that the way you can Lebron getting to the basket.

And thats not even the entire reason id rather have Lebron.

I dont see much of a reason to go with Kobe really.Lebron has been roughly as good or a better defender for 2 years. Hes a better passer(not to be confused with just getting assists). Ive heard little drama and few claims of him being difficult with teammates. Worst ive heard of Lebron was Gooden jokingly saying that in Chicago they share the ball. Then as he got the ball more he started to suck...Bulls fans hated him...and he ends up on the Spurs(5th team in 7 years) getting 8 minutes total over 2 playoff games.....anyway. Kobe is better at making difficult shots but I dont value the making of bad shots over the making of easy ones when I can rely on those shots. Not talking about a Dwight easy shot like a dunk that you cant really predict. You can give Lebron the ball...move out of his way...and he will score or get fouled at a fantastic rate. Its almost a lock.

hes the most individually dominant and unstoppable swingman ive seen since Jordan in his youth and if he isnt...Wade is. I can see someone saying Kobe is better or more skilled but not more effective.

Sure he won the title but he did so on the most talented team in the league. Wade won it all on a team with less than Kobe had to work with. And Lebron led a finals team that had no more talent than the ones Kobe missed the playoffs with and lost in the first round. The only player aside from Bron on the Cavs 07 roster id even take on the Bulls right now(in 07 form even) is Z. Gibson when thej umper is falling but really...hes the Bulls #3 guard at best.

The Cavs team he took to the finals was simply abominable(by finals team standards). Really....would you rather have the entire 07 Cavs supporting cast or just the second best player from any finals team of the last 5 years?

Gasol
Pierce
Lewis
Parker
Howard
Billups/Ben Wallace
Shaq/Kobe(questionable by 2004)


Josh Howard is the only second option id even consider trading for their whole 07 roster...and id end up saying no just to dodge Larry Hughes. Larry Hughes managed to shoot 31 and 35% in back to back playoffs....

Lebron did work with a lottery team. And he just led another one to the most wins ever by a team with nearly that little talent to work with. Dirk didnt have a huge amount but give me Howard and terry over the entire Cavs roster. They arent even talented on defense as some claim. Ben Wallace is pushing 60 and anderson is a talented defender as is West but really...they more talented on D than the Bulls with Hinrich, Hunter, Tyrus, Deng, and Noah? More than the Bobcats were with Wallace, Emeka, and Raja?

The Cavs arent expecially good at anything but giving the ball to Lebron to win them games.

That hes done what he has wit hthose teams gives me little reason to doubt he could win with almost anything I give him to work with. A guy who can get to the basket as if nothing is in his way is always easy to build around. Give him 2 shooters and 2 bigmen who can catch and you can win games.

Lebron just seems like a far better pick to start a team...even throwing out age.[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to go point by point to debate you; I'm just going to disagree with a few things I read.

You use FG% to argue that Lebron is a more consistent performer. FG% is a flawed stat. It takes into account neither 3PA nor FT%. Since Kobe has taken more 3's than Lebron every year but the last, and not by a small amount, his FG% is naturally going to be lower. Kobe averaged over 5 3PA per game 4 of the last 5 years and one of those years he averaged over 6. Lebron has never averaged over 5. Since Kobe's FT% has been and is significantly better than Lebron's he gets more out of his trips to the line. If you use TS% which takes into account FT% and 3PA, Kobe has been the more efficient player 4 of the 6 years Lebron has been in the league.

The second point I'd like to argue is that Lebron had little better than "lottery worthy" talent last year. Mo Williams put up 18/3/4 on 47% last year. Delonte west was an extremely good defender as well as putting up 12/3/4 on 46%. Ilgauskas, while too slow to gaurd more mobile centers, still put up 13/8. These aren't trash players. Andy is little more than a glorified hustle player to my mind but he is a good post defender. The idea that Lebron has no talent on his team is ridiculous. His team won 66 games for a reason. Mike brown has an excellent defensive scheme and a good collection of talent to work with. If you'd like to dispute that I'll point you to the last game of the season, when they sat out Mo Williams, Lebron, Big Z, and Ben Wallace and STILL almost managed to beat the 76er's, a playoff team.

As to the rest I haven't got time to deal with it now maybe another time.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]I'm not going to go point by point to debate you; I'm just going to disagree with a few things I read.

You use FG% to argue that Lebron is a more consistent performer. FG% is a flawed stat. It takes into account neither 3PA nor FT%. Since Kobe has taken more 3's than Lebron every year but the last, and not by a small amount, his FG% is naturally going to be lower. Kobe averaged over 5 3PA per game 4 of the last 5 years and one of those years he averaged over 6. Lebron has never averaged over 5. Since Kobe's FT% has been and is significantly better than Lebron's he gets more out of his trips to the line. If you use TS% which takes into account FT% and 3PA, Kobe has been the more efficient player 4 of the 6 years Lebron has been in the league.

The second point I'd like to argue is that Lebron had little better than "lottery worthy" talent last year. Mo Williams put up 18/3/4 on 47% last year. Delonte west was an extremely good defender as well as putting up 12/3/4 on 46%. Ilgauskas, while too slow to gaurd more mobile centers, still put up 13/8. These aren't trash players. Andy is little more than a glorified hustle player to my mind but he is a good post defender. The idea that Lebron has no talent on his team is ridiculous. His team won 66 games for a reason. Mike brown has an excellent defensive scheme and a good collection of talent to work with. If you'd like to dispute that I'll point you to the last game of the season, when they sat out Mo Williams, Lebron, Big Z, and Ben Wallace and STILL almost managed to beat the 76er's, a playoff team.

As to the rest I haven't got time to deal with it now maybe another time.[/QUOTE]
I'm not so sure about last years Cavs being better than lottery. The 2008 Bucks lead by Mo Williams had a season of 34 and 48 and failed to make the playoffs. That Bukcs roster if you look at it was very similar, no scratch that probably better than the Cavs roster outside of james. They have a similar C in Bogut, a much better wing player in Redd, Mo was slightly better last year then the year before, and CV was a player that we Cavs fans were praying for this season. The Bucks roster probably was more talented then the Cavs, and they only won 34 games.

I already said Kobe takes a lot more difficult shots. Threes being an example. And even last year with Bron taking more he still shot better. Besides taking 3s leading to a lot more misses isnt a positive thing for Kobe. If anything its evidence of his less reliable offense. The worse shots you take the less I can depend on you to make them.

And what is almost winning without the starters? You win or you dont. And if they had won...it wouldnt prove anything. Any 12 NBA player can win any game. Even the bad players would produce on a bad enough team.

The Cavs were simply terrible compared to most teams to win at nearly the rate they did, Who has won 66 games? The Lakers now, the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, the Mavs, Jordans Bulls, showtime, The 80s celtics, the 72 Lakers, the 67 78ers, The Cowens/Hondo/Jojo Celtics...maybe Kareems team with Oscar. Great...GREAT teams. The Cavs supporting cast is a joke compared to all but one team I can think of to approach their level of wins and thats the 07 Mavs...and id take Howard/Terry/Stackhouse/Harris over the Cavs lineup 9 of 10 times.

you did not type all that sh[B]i[/B]t

J.Cole :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

"Now I was dreamin' for a deal at the age of 13..."

"I was like a young Simba couldn't wait to be king"

Lupe

"Look up in the skyyyyyyy"

[QUOTE=barbaroi]If you'd like to dispute that I'll point you to the last game of the season, when they sat out Mo Williams, Lebron, Big Z, and Ben Wallace and STILL almost managed to beat the 76er's, a playoff team.[/QUOTE]

Just one game ...

It was an anomally.

Darnell Jackson played 42 minutes. Lorenzen Wright played 35 minutes. Jawad Williams played as much as Varejao (10 minutes). Sasha Pavlovic and Wally Szcerbiak played more than 40 minutes. Do you really think those guys are good ????? It was a miracle that the game was even close.

I should have waited and used ross on a bron video now. Its just begging to be done....

[B]Barkley was a better "PURE" Scorer (2-Point FG% will back it up) and Offensive (ORT too) Player than Lebron. Barkley actually had "Lateral Movement and a Monster Post Game". Regarding length that is what Lebron had over Barkley which makes him similar to Karl Malone: who was a fast break catch and finish player, thats it.[/B]

I don't like your logic of "who would you take over LeBron to start a team". That's not how players are ranked all-time. This isn't a fantasy draft.

Also, given his recent history, I wouldn't take James over a few guys who he is perhaps better than (using your logic). All we know about LeBron leading a franchise so far is that he won't win you a championship despite posting huge stats... and after a few years of failing, he'll turn around and shit on your team.

I think I'll take a guy who stays loyal his whole career, but may not be as good (using your logic of ranking guys by who you would start a franchise with).

[QUOTE=bdreason]Also, given his recent history, I wouldn't take James over a few guys who he is perhaps better than (using your logic). All we know about LeBron leading a franchise so far is that he won't win you a championship despite posting huge stats... and after a few years of failing, he'll turn around and shit on your team.

I think I'll take a guy who stays loyal his whole career, but may not be as good (using your logic of ranking guys by who you would start a franchise with).[/QUOTE]

James never had the talent around him to win championships. Seriously, if somehow they won a ring.... that would go down as a greater accomplishment than either Duncan in 03 or Hakeem leading his team. It would be the worst supporting cast to ever help a superstar win.

[QUOTE=Carbine]James never had the talent around him to win championships. Seriously, if somehow they won a ring.... that would go down as a greater accomplishment than either Duncan in 03 or Hakeem leading his team. It would be the worst supporting cast to ever help a superstar win.[/QUOTE]


Then how did they win 60+ games?


Worse than AI's Sixers? Worse than Hakeem's Rockets?

:roll:

His team last year was better than the 94 rockets and 01 sixers. But 06-09? Id take 01 Mutombo over the entire roster Bron aside. Jamison makes a difference....but im not sure he would lead to more winning than having Mutombo to build my D around.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]




Sure he won the title but he did so on the most talented team in the league. [/QUOTE]
lol. Watch the 09 and 2010 playoff runs. There were several teams with an similar amounts of talent (Nuggets,Magic,08 Nuggets with A.I and Melo, 08 Jazz,Boston). I swear Bryant is the only one who in history who consistently gets knocked for having great supporting casts. :roll:

Biggest waste of 5 minutes of my life reading complete crap.

I wouldnt say its a "knock" on Kobe. Just a fact that has to be considered.

And you can call it what you will....right now there arent 30 people who did anything he has not. And plenty of those who have are just factually inferior to him at playing basketball. Because hes now hated doesnt change the facts.

He is at 25 a 2 time MVP 4-5 time all nba first teamer who has led a team to the finals. What legacy says about Karl Malone, Barkley, Nique, Drexler, and so on has no bearing on who did what or how well any of them play basketball.

He is right now...the same player people will reference when calling him top 15 years from now and the only thing keeping people from saying it is a lack of foresight and/or lying to themselves.

Barring injury...he could never win it all and hes top 20 all time. And hes been that player for like 4 years.

I said almost this exact same thing of Kobe in 2003(hes currently top 20 if hes ever gonna be top 20) and plenty argued and now if you bring it up there are those who say hes top 10...and was better in 2003 than he is now.

How people fail to see how this works is beyond me. Its the same every single time.

[QUOTE=Yung D-Will]Biggest waste of 5 minutes of my life reading complete crap.[/QUOTE]
Do you even have an argument with reasons why this is crap?

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Longevity doesnt put the ball i nthe basket. Lebron retires today hes no better than if he plays on the same level for 20 years. Hes the same person. People dont get better in retrospect when they add to their legacy. Unless its a situation like Walton where a guy misses years at a time and is healthy for like 3 seasons ever...fine.

But Lebron vs most of these guys? Not much of a factor.[/QUOTE]

If that's the case, David Robinson would be rated far higher, since imo his first 6 seasons were superior to LeBron's first 7.

DRob also won 0 rings in those seasons, and only won titles when he got Duncan and deferred the scoring load to him. . .like LBJ will be doing in Miami.

DRob also has 2 rings. . .one of which is arguably best/near best player on the team with Duncan. LBJ, again, has zero.

DRob is ranked what, 25? How can you possibly rank LBJ higher than him right now? Don't tell me that one single playoff series against Hakeem somehow defines his career either, because it doesn't. He still performed well, but just not good enough. LBJ has multiple failure series in the playoffs.

Even if LBJ wins a ring in Miami, he's still behind Robinson in dominating seasons, AND rings (under similar circumstances). If you're going to argue for LBJ using the arguments you are. . .I don't see how you can put him above DRob unless you make arguments for him being rated too low on the all time list too.

its going to be fascinating to see how lebron and wade play together, since both worked off iso plays a lot last year, surely they wont run much iso since neither wade or lebron is a knock down 3pt shooter.

I find it hard to imagine how they will play togehter but as the talking head always seem to say 'great player will figure it out'

But i would point to the 08 olympics where usa had a far superior roster. people say spain play together more often which is overstated because their top player play in the nba and only get together slightly more often the usa does. anyway in that game usa won but it was much closer than the talent disparity suggests it should have been. Lebron works mostly off of isos, wade the same, kobe the same to an extent but at the end of the game even for all of the talent kobe went one on one and won the game for usa, will the same happen for miami, reducing lebron and wade to be spot up shooters at times due to the others style of play.

It seems to me that lebron and wade will have to play a different style of play or become better shooters. it would be a shame if with all the talent this team will have the end up running iso

I havent been following nba basketball for very long, but can anybody point to two ball dominant perimiter players playing together successfully?

I have no problem putting Lebron in the top 20 all time. The problem is that he was supposed to be top 3 and was hopefully gonna make a run at #1. Not possible anymore.

I went into Drob:

"Drob. see Barkley. 90s Lebron type. He never took his non outstanding team to the finals though. And he had better teams than the 07 Cavs. However...defense considered I wont argue if one wants him over Lebron."

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]I went into Drob:

"Drob. see Barkley. 90s Lebron type. He never took his non outstanding team to the finals though. And he had better teams than the 07 Cavs. However...defense considered I wont argue if one wants him over Lebron."[/QUOTE]
You trying to compare Barkley/KJ's Suns, Stockton/Malone's Jazz, Clyde/Kersey/Porter's Blazers, Hakeem/Clyde's Rockets to the trash Lebron faced in '07? Not even remotely the same situation. D-Rob messed up many times, but if he got cupcake conferences like that over and over again, we'd be seeing him leading his team to the finals too.

You leave D-Rob alone. He'a a very nice man.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]I went into Drob:

"Drob. see Barkley. 90s Lebron type. He never took his non outstanding team to the finals though. And he had better teams than the 07 Cavs. However...defense considered I wont argue if one wants him over Lebron."[/QUOTE]
DRob had better teams but the teams he faced were a lot better than the teams LeBron beat in his "magical" run to the finals. I'm not hating on Bron's run because they overachieved and he was the primary reason but LeBron in the 2009 playoffs was a lot better than he was in 2007. I'd say his 2006 playoff run was also greater than his finals run. Had like 2 gamewinners against the Wiz and took Detroit to 7 games. Remember, I'm strictly talkin' from an individual standpoint. Also, his 2007 run is grossly overrated. They weren't expected to go there. But, look at the teams he faced. .500 Wizards without Arenas and Butler, they were a trash defensive team anyway. The .500 Nets who couldn't get it done for various reasons and a Pistons team that was on the decline ever since Brown left and even more so when Wallace left. That run is grossly overrated.

DRob couldn't get it done as the man, either but he faced much better teams than he did. I'm not saying DRob would have won as the man in LeBron's place because he was a softie who didn't have the mentality to dominate. Always folded under pressure. But, really, 1995 Rockets with Hakeem on fire and team in top form, 1994/6 Jazz with Stockton/Hornacek/Malone and 1993 Suns with MVP Barkley which came to a Barkley gamewinner in game 6 are MUCH better teams than anything LeBron faced. And this is factoring in teams/rosters relative to era.

Well, if you're going to rank players purely on how well they played the game of basketball, and ignore things like longevity and accolades, then LBJ is closer top 5 All-Time then top 20 and Kobe has no case for top 10.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]I went into Drob:

"Drob. see Barkley. 90s Lebron type. He never took his non outstanding team to the finals though. And he had better teams than the 07 Cavs. However...defense considered I wont argue if one wants him over Lebron."[/QUOTE]

Oh okay. Yeah that makes sense then DRob had crazy good defense, and was just as dominant if not more dominant than LBJ has ever been.


[QUOTE=Scoooter]You leave D-Rob alone. He'a a very nice man.[/QUOTE]

He's my second fav' player ever, after MJ. Very underrated center. I'd never bash the guy. Imo best personality the NBA's ever seen too. Ultimate "good guy".

TTT

Does anybody actually read these long soliloquies?

[QUOTE=Ne 1]Does anybody actually read these long soliloquies?[/QUOTE]

5 minutes of troll junk vs 5 minutes of a thought out post:confusedshrug: