Pau Gasol vs. Dirk Nowitzki

[QUOTE]That begs the question: where does he have Gasol? Top 50? Top 60 all-time? Top 75?[/QUOTE]

Top 100.

Where he will end up depends a lot on how much he is going to win. I doubt he will ever reach top 50 though. He is not that good.

But let's not act like the difference is HUGE with a player being top 40 or top 70 on an all time list. There are like 450 players on the teams each year and we are talking about all time. If a player is top 40 or top 70 all time it means only a few places in their current rankings.

Like Dirk is a top 5 player now and Gasol is a borderline top 10 player now. Over the course of a career it will easily translate as the difference between, say, to 35 and top 75.

Let's not act as if these differences were so immense. They are not.

[QUOTE]That's a dozen guys there. In my next tier are around 15 players. Barkley, Isiah, Stockton, Malone, Robinson, etc.

Drexler is in tier 4. Borderline 30.[/QUOTE]

okay, though I do think Dirk and Drexler belong in that same tier, albeit on the bottom end. All those players except Isiah lead their team to the finals as the best player, put up great stats in the process and won MVPs (except Stockton). Dirk basically is Malone, only a more clutch but less prolific as a scorer.

[QUOTE]I do think Dirk and Drexler belong in that same tier[/QUOTE]

Yes, me too. And Nash is also there, as is Kidd or Iverson. In that tier, there are at least 20 guys, and it is actually pretty tough ranking them. Ranking players 1 thru 25 is a lot easier than doing a 26 thru 50

Both lists will be arguable, but you will have a tougher time creating the second list.

[QUOTE=elementally morale]Yes, me too. And Nash is also there, as is Kidd or Iverson. In that tier, there are at least 20 guys, and it is actually pretty tough ranking them. Ranking players 1 thru 25 is a lot easier than doing a 26 thru 50

Both lists will be arguable, but you will have a tougher time creating the second list.[/QUOTE]

If you have 12 players in tier 1 and 2 combined, plus 20 players in tier 3, which include Dirk and Drexler, that makes both top 32, which is basically where I rank them.

[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]If you have 12 players in tier 1 and 2 combined, plus 20 players in tier 3, which include Dirk and Drexler, that makes both top 32, which is basically where I rank them.[/QUOTE]

But I don't and didn't say that, did I?

Let's take a look at it again:

Tier 1, six players. Tier 2, six players. Tier 3, about 15 players. (Give or take a few). We are somewhere between 25-30 by now.

[B]Drexler is in tier 4.[/B] There are about 20 players there. In other words: Drexler is most definitely top 50 and no way better than top 25. Around 35, a bit better a bit worse. Somewhere there. As is Iverson, Kidd, Nash, Dirk.... it's tough.

Dirk easily.

[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]Is Dirk any less accomplished than Kidd, Pippen, Stockton, DRob and Garnett?

btw, on [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57766"]that list[/URL] Drexler is at #27[/QUOTE]

It is debatable but I would say he is slightly less accomplished then those players. Stockton and Kidd are 1-2 in assists all-time and Pippen and Garnett have championships and were elite defenders, perhaps the best at their peaks. Dirk is not far from those guys, though.

Yeah, ISH has him 27th but everywhere else he is around 40th. Slam has him 41st, Simmons has him 43rd and Kalb 49th or 50th (although his book was written in 03' and players who retired around then have moved up on most lists since then). He has a case for top 30, though. Drexler is a good comparison to Dirk. Someone who is around 40th right now but has a case for top 30 and may get there by the time he retires.

[QUOTE]But let's not act like the difference is HUGE with a player being top 40 or top 70 on an all time list. [/QUOTE]

That depends on how you define huge. Is there a big difference between 10th and 20th, i.e. Duncan vs. Malone? Simmons has David Thompson at #70 and Gary Payton at #40. There is a difference but how big it is depends on your definition.

[QUOTE]Like Dirk is a top 5 player now and Gasol is a borderline top 10 player now. Over the course of a career it will easily translate as the difference between, say, to 35 and top 75.[/QUOTE]

A borderline top 10 player at his peak is that high all-time? Dirk is top 5 now and he is past his prime.

[QUOTE]A borderline top 10 player at his peak is that high all-time? [/QUOTE]

We don't know yet. He is around top 100 on my list now. In case he wins 3 more titles as the #2 option, top 70 is not out of reach. However, it doesn't make too much sense to rank players below top 25 and it is basically pointless below top 50. The lower you go the less meaning it has and the more personal preference it becomes.

If someone can rank Wilt as #1 or #6 or Shaq #1 and #12... it is not that clear cut then, is it? Jordan had a good 15 years as the consensus #1, and even that will come to an end. It will simply go out of style to have him as the clear cut GOAT.

One may build just as good a case for Kareem or Russell, and one may argue Bird had no worse a prime than Jordan. That's why I think having tiers makes a lot more sense than a rigid ranking.

People usually can't agree where they rank Nash, Paul and Deron this season. They can't agree on LeBron and Kobe, they can't agree on Dwight Howard or Tim Duncan this very year. Yet we try acting as if we knew how to properly rank people on all time lists, with all the different eras and situations.

I shouldn't be ranking Wilt, Russell, West and Oscar at all. All I saw is some footage. People not old enough to have been able to see Hakeem's career or Barkley's career should not really comment on their respective level of play all time. Or even if they do, they should be a lot more modest about it than they usually are.

At least that's what I think.

In a way there are tiers. The same players are ranked with each other 90% of the time. Plus, most people switch players a few spots since they are close calls. No one posting a list today will have the same list two months from now, even though the records of the players involved will be the same by then.

Yeah, going beyond top 50 is iffy and that is why it is rarely done. Slam magazine, Kalb in his book, and the NBA itself all used top 50 lists. Simmons and the ISH thread are the only places I have seen people go beyond that.

You are right that the lower you go the harder it is to classify players because criteria becomes more important. For instance, if you don't care about championships then Malone looks a lot better than he does if you do.

[QUOTE]People usually can't agree where they rank Nash, Paul and Deron this season. They can't agree on LeBron and Kobe, they can't agree on Dwight Howard or Tim Duncan this very year.[/QUOTE]

They are in tiers too. Only three PG's are in the best PG discussion and only two players are in the best player discussion right now, given the subpar season Wade has had thus far.

[QUOTE]I shouldn't be ranking Wilt, Russell, West and Oscar at all. All I saw is some footage. People not old enough to have been able to see Hakeem's career or Barkley's career should not really comment on their respective level of play all time.[/QUOTE]

So why do you rank players you never saw contemporaneously? A good starting point would be to practice what you preach. :confusedshrug: People get ranked all the time in every sport (not to mention the same thing happens outside of sports, i.e. greatest presidents or greatest generals). There is a reason for it. Do you really think only basketball fans do this? Go to a NFL forum and post a thread asking who the best QB ever is or a NASCAR forum and ask who the best driver ever is and you will see a lengthy discussion. How many of those people saw Unitas play or Petty race? Here we have 95% of posters declaring Jordan the GOAT. How many saw Wilt, Russell, or prime Kareem? Maybe a handful of posters. For sure no one here saw the 50's players. Most here probably didn't see prime Bird either.

Edit: Here is a thread ranking a rap producer in the OTC sub-forum. It is up to four pages already. [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157601[/url]

[QUOTE]So why do you rank players you never saw contemporaneously?[/QUOTE]


I don't.
Have you ever seen me doing an all time list? I have tiers and I usually add the 'since 1980' disclaimer.


[QUOTE]
People get ranked all the time in every sport[/QUOTE]

I know. And it makes no sense comparing Maradona with Pel

[QUOTE]I don't.
Have you ever seen me doing an all time list? I have tiers and I usually add the 'since 1980' disclaimer.[/QUOTE]

In this thread you said Dirk is top 40 all-time. Surely you didn't mean top 40 since 1980.

[QUOTE]I know the reason. People want clear instructions as to what to think, and a rigid ranking system is clear enough. It is simple enough, too. Besides, people also love arguing about rankings. The result is not as important as the process of arguing over the list and the need to 'be right' all the time.[/QUOTE]

You oppose threads on all-time rankings yet posted a thread about teams, players of the decade? There is no substantive difference. Both threads will trigger the same type of talk.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]In this thread you said Dirk is top 40 all-time. Surely you didn't mean top 40 since 1980.[/QUOTE]

And at the same time I also said these lists are not to be taken that seriously. Sure, you can give a ranking to Dirk... so? Does it really matter if he is #32 or #39? Not for me. If you read the things I've said here (and elsewhere), I suggest you guys don't make that big a deal out of a few ppg or % difference. It also makes no sense dying arguing whether Nash or Kidd was better, or if Pippen was top 30 for that matter. If he was to you, great.



[QUOTE]You oppose threads on all-time rankings yet posted a thread about teams, players of the decade? There is no substantive difference. Both threads will trigger the same type of talk.[/QUOTE]

Not really. That is a pretty long and well-written article by a senior NBA-writer. I thought it was worth sharing, but you didn't see me there arguing e.g. the Lakers vs. the Spurs, did you?


On a final note, let me ask you if you are not getting tired by arguing only for the sake of arguing. Because if the only thing you want is people saying 'Wow, RR is right', then you can save the effort. Just say yes, and I will tell in bold capitals that you are right.

We got a deal?

[QUOTE=wang4three]Pau in the span of 2 years has become the most overrated player on this board. By far. You'd think he was Hakeem mixed with David Robinson reading some of these comments.

How has Pau gotten better in the last two years that he can be mentioned in the elite power forwards of the league? What has he added to his game? For me, it's a question of who. And that who, is Kobe. Lets not forget that Pau was 0-12 in the playoffs without Kobe.

Dirk might have had an embarrassing first round outing in 2007, but its not that bad compared to the fact that Pau could not lead his team to 1 victory in the post season. Yet, now somehow people would take him over Duncan, Dirk, and KG...for what reason.. I don't know.[/QUOTE]


Nuff said.............:applause:

pau has the ring

[QUOTE=elementally morale]But I don't and didn't say that, did I?

Let's take a look at it again:

Tier 1, six players. Tier 2, six players. Tier 3, about 15 players. (Give or take a few). We are somewhere between 25-30 by now.

[B]Drexler is in tier 4.[/B] There are about 20 players there. In other words: Drexler is most definitely top 50 and no way better than top 25. Around 35, a bit better a bit worse. Somewhere there. As is Iverson, Kidd, Nash, Dirk.... it's tough.[/QUOTE]

Okay, either you misinterpreted my post or I misunderstood your "Yes, me too. ".
Anyways, I don't see how both Drexler and Dirk are a tier below guys like DRob or Karl Malone. They didn't accomplish anything that Dirk has not, they had better stats but were either considerably worse in the playoffs (DRob) or in clutch situations (Malone).

[QUOTE=ClutchCover]Who are the teammates, and yes it matters.

For example, if both were going to be given Vince Carter to work with, I'll take Gasol since I know I can count on him playing defense and rebounding, other ways of impacting the game and I know Dirk won't be able to do that. If both were going to work with Kendrick Perkins, I'll take Dirk because I know Perkins can do all the dirty work for Dirk, and Dirk can sit back and score all the points. It's as simple as that.[/QUOTE]

You do know that Pau and Dirk basically have identical rebounding numbers for their career? Except in the playoffs, where Dirk outperforms Gasol by a good margin.

Also, just look at how great Dirk is at playing pick&roll with Jason Terry, now imagine that with a Vince Carter type, who not only is a great shooter like JET, but also a great slasher. Dirk works well with ANY other type of star player. High-Low with Dwight and Dirk? Please. Gasol wouldn't compare.

Dirk is absolutely useless on D. He's overhyped bigtime!!

Pau is better at everything other than the 3.

Dirk is the better player today, and he has a better NBA Career than Pau Gasol.

[QUOTE=RaptorFan]Dirk is absolutely useless on D. He's overhyped bigtime!!

Pau is better at everything other than the 3.[/QUOTE]


Dirk is the greatest European player in NBA History. Dirk would win an NBA title if you pair him with LeBron, Kobe, and Wade.

Give me Dirk Nowitzki.

Former NBA League MVP
Led his team in the 2006 NBA Finals
His team never missed the playoffs.

[IMG]http://scienceanddimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/pau-gasol-dirk-nowitzki-514.jpg[/IMG]

Good bump. I've always thought Pau was severely overrated. Give me Dirk 8/10 times.

Some of these replies are hilariously funny.

[IMG]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3119/3125085893_1675f50de7.jpg[/IMG]

Gasol is a hall of famer and a great player, but he's not on Dirk's level. Dirk is a top 25 player of all time when his career is over....maybe top 20 if he plays a long time.

Gasol just isn't in his class as a player overall. Not a knock against Gasol, just speaks to how good Dirk has been up to this point in his career.

Great bump. It's pretty funny how over rated Pau was at one point, though I'd say the same about Dirk at one point too.

Dirk, always.

I've never understood the Pau infatuation.

It's like, I'll watch a whole game, hardly notice he was in it and then after the game hear about how great he was because he put 17/12 or something like that. I just see him as the best piece by a small margin of the Gasol/Bynum/Odom machine. He almost never dominates or takes over games.

damn this is a good comparison... u got two.. great... eurofaags...

one one hand u got pau gasol... or how i like to call him.. Pau The Charmin Caveman gasol... he is soft as a babys asss.. he at times can access his spanish passion... when he makes loves... damn he can really get on fuego... he gets his spanish blood boiling and wow... can he please... but really he is a good player.. defintely a hall of famer... best spanish player of all time... but he is soft as shit and he looks like a caveman...


next... u got DIRK the horse faced assassin... he gets shit on alot cuz hes soft... but not in the bedroom haha.. jk.. he is a hard nosed player but he is also ugly as shit haha... hes unstoppable on the offensive side of the ball... but he hooks up with ugly chicks... that sucks... he is a great player... awesome friend...

Pau needs to taylor his game after Dirk , including his selection of woman

[QUOTE=magnax1]Great bump. It's pretty funny how over rated Pau was at one point, though I'd say the same about Dirk at one point too.[/QUOTE]
Funny, you were one of those people who underrated the sh*t out of Dirk months ago and called Pau at least on par with him.

Meticode was wrong big time :applause:

This thread is even more of a joke than it was 2 years ago now lol

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=knickswin]I've never understood the Pau infatuation.

It's like, I'll watch a whole game, hardly notice he was in it and then after the game hear about how great he was because he put 17/12 or something like that. I just see him as the best piece by a small margin of the Gasol/Bynum/Odom machine. He almost never dominates or takes over games.[/QUOTE]
This ...

:pimp:

Dirk. Dirk actually proved he can lead a team to the title.
Pau couldn't get it done in Memphis.

[QUOTE=Meticode]Not many, but he didn't win it. And I feel he never will win it as a #1.[/QUOTE]

Is that a way to treat a Honorary Ohioan. :lol

[QUOTE=Meticode]Dirk Nowitzki's offensive game is slightly better than Pau Gasol's, but Dirk limits himself from the outside a lot. While Pau has a more consistent and efficient offensive game.

Pau Gasol is the better defender compared to Nowitzki.

Nowitzki is the better overall player, Gasol is the player I want on my team as a complimentary player to another player because he doesn't need the ball to be effective.

Give me Pau Gasol please.[/QUOTE]

Bump :)

"Dirk is better, but I want Gasol on my team" Yea, go ahead and take the INFERIOR PLAYER.

Dumbass logic... never got it, makes 0 sense.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]Bump :)

"Dirk is better, but I want Gasol on my team" Yea, go ahead and take the INFERIOR PLAYER.

Dumbass logic... never got it, makes 0 sense.[/QUOTE]

you dig real hard to find this one. current dirk> pau

The goold old days when most people lived in a parallel universe where Dirk was thought to be about 3 times worse than he was. Before he destroyed the league and reality set in...

[QUOTE=mr.big35]you dig real hard to find this one. current dirk> pau[/QUOTE]

I googled "dirk will never win a ring insidehoops"

to find mustard's thread