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That making teammates better things is also bull****...look at Shaq for example. He was beasting last year with Nash, now looks like **** playing beside the "King." He will never coexist with a great player until he starts believing in ball movement.
[QUOTE=Twiens]That making teammates better things is also bull****...look at Shaq for example. He was beasting last year with Nash, now looks like **** playing beside the "King." He will never coexist with a great player until he starts believing in ball movement.[/QUOTE]
Shaq coexisted with Kobe, Penny and Wade for some very successful seasons. Many of them altogether in fact. Shaq is now in his 18th NBA season and only playing 22 mpg. What do you expect him to do?
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Shaq coexisted with Kobe, Penny and Wade for some very successful seasons. Many of them altogether in fact. Shaq is now in his 18th NBA season and only playing 22 mpg. What do you expect him to do?[/QUOTE]
Well he was 18 and 8 on a ridiculous 61% last year :eek:
[QUOTE=Twiens]That making teammates better things is also bull****...look at Shaq for example. He was beasting last year with Nash, now looks like **** playing beside the "King." He will never coexist with a great player until he starts believing in ball movement.[/QUOTE]
Lmao Shaq wasn't no beast last year...watch a damn basketball game that fat mug is a liability on any team ever since he got traded from Miami.
[QUOTE=Twiens]Well he was 18 and 8 on a ridiculous 61% last year :eek:[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but that was a shocking year considering the injuries and his decline before that plus his minutes have been lowered by 7-8 mpg. I expected more production from Shaq, but I also expected more minutes. Then again when players are in the league as long as Shaq, declines happen very fast.
How many times can you have the same conversation without it getting boring and unreadable? Apparently infinite.
[QUOTE=The GM]This is a joke right? his assist yes would probably be up but as proven manny times be4 the West is so far ahead of the East even in the lower half he wouldn't be droppin triple doubles and 50+ on the lower half teams in the west as he does in the east and how does that make any sense if the better player is Kobe but the Lebron james lead lakers would win 72? Kobe would feast on the lower level eastern confrence teams probably more so then Lebron because he has a better jimmy and if his teammates wouldn't get it going he would go off and history tell's us that's a great thing cause they almost always win.[/QUOTE]
Check conference splits for Kobe. He was playing worse against the East than the West. And those lower level west teams? He has/had 3 of them in his division past few years.
LeBron won 66 games last year with that team. If you don't think 3 all-stars being added to the roster and the GOAT coach would "help" him or the team, I don't know what to tell you.
[QUOTE=Twiens]That making teammates better things is also bull****...look at Shaq for example. He was beasting last year with Nash, now looks like **** playing beside the "King." He will never coexist with a great player until he starts believing in ball movement.[/QUOTE]
The suns made shaq the focal point of their offense and ran everything through him. The cavs play him 20 minutes a games and run everything through Mo/Bron.
:oldlol: at implying that Lebron isn't good a moving the ball, he's only the best passing forward in the league... Go s*ck Kobe's D*ck :oldlol:
I honestly can not believe that any serious educated NBA fan could actually believe that Kobe Bryant is a better basketball player than Lebron James. I know that statistics don't count for everything, but Lebron's season last year was better statistically than ANY season Kobe has ever had. Not to mention the fact that Kobe was a horrible teammate when the Lakers were struggling- its easy to come off as a great teammate/leader when you are on the best team in the league. Also you have to keep in mind that Kobe has played nearly his entire career with one of the best coaches in the history of the NBA, while Lebron has Mike Brown who couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag.
Lebron>Kobe, its been that way for the past 2-3 years, and if you don't agree then honestly you are a Kobe homer you are not looking at the facts.
[QUOTE=hawksdogsbraves]I honestly can not believe that any serious educated NBA fan could actually believe that Kobe Bryant is a better basketball player than Lebron James. I know that statistics don't count for everything, but Lebron's season last year was better statistically than ANY season Kobe has ever had. Not to mention the fact that Kobe was a horrible teammate when the Lakers were struggling- its easy to come off as a great teammate/leader when you are on the best team in the league. Also you have to keep in mind that Kobe has played nearly his entire career with one of the best coaches in the history of the NBA, while Lebron has Mike Brown who couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag.
Lebron>Kobe, its been that way for the past 2-3 years, and if you don't agree then honestly you are a Kobe homer you are not looking at the facts.[/QUOTE]
It's not even arguable really. Does anyone honestly think Kobe is taking last year's Cavs team to 66 wins w/a supporting cast of Mo Williams, Delonte West and Z? C'mon.
I usually just avoid Kobe v. LeBron threads. Arguing against Kobe fans is like arguing with girls; they don't respond to logic. Far to much of their self-esteem is tied into this NBA player who doesn't care about them.
[QUOTE=hawksdogsbraves]I honestly can not believe that any serious educated NBA fan could actually believe that Kobe Bryant is a better basketball player than Lebron James. I know that statistics don't count for everything, but Lebron's season last year was better statistically than ANY season Kobe has ever had. Not to mention the fact that Kobe was a horrible teammate when the Lakers were struggling- its easy to come off as a great teammate/leader when you are on the best team in the league. Also you have to keep in mind that [B]Kobe has played nearly his entire career with one of the best coaches in the history of the NBA, while Lebron has Mike Brown who couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag[/B].
Lebron>Kobe, its been that way for the past 2-3 years, and if you don't agree then honestly you are a Kobe homer you are not looking at the facts.[/QUOTE]
I love Kobe but i gotta admit this is a good point. Coaching ability is vastly over-looked when analyzing teams/players by the regular nba fan.
[QUOTE]I honestly can not believe that any serious educated NBA fan could actually believe that Kobe Bryant is a better basketball player than Lebron James.[/QUOTE]
Why would more than half of the players in the NBA pick Bryant? They are neither educated nor fans for the most part, but still... and there are some GMs in polls out there taking Bryant as well.
I'm not taking Bryant but is it a sin to have him as #1? I'm not much into this ranking'em head2head thingy, but if anything it should be just like in boxing: You have to beat the champion considerably to become the new champion. LeBron failed to do that in most players' and GMs' eyes. He may have been better but not convincingly enough it seems.
lebron's the better player but he has yet to overtake kobe as the face of the nba. you gotta take it from the best; lebron has yet to do it.
[QUOTE=elementally morale]Why would more than half of the players in the NBA pick Bryant? They are neither educated nor fans for the most part, but still... and there are some GMs in polls out there taking Bryant as well.
I'm not taking Bryant but is it a sin to have him as #1? I'm not much into this ranking'em head2head thingy, but if anything it should be just like in boxing: You have to beat the champion considerably to become the new champion. LeBron failed to do that in most players' and GMs' eyes. He may have been better but not convincingly enough it seems.[/QUOTE]
It's definitely not a sin. When comparing the two though, people often times bring up rings which is an unfair comparison considering the amount of time the two spent so far in the league because at this point, there really isn't much else one could use to argue Kobe over LeBron in my opinon.
Winning rings is a product of a team, not an individual. Does anyone honestly believe KG was better now than he was with the Wolves? No, he was just in a terrible situation that didn't allow him to win a ring. A KG, well removed from his prime was able to win a ring the other year because of the situation he was in, not because he was a better player than in years past.
This is the same idea with LeBron and Kobe. With comparable situations, Kobe didn't make playoffs, and lost twice in the first round while LeBron was in the ECF/Finals playing huge in most of these series'. I find it hard to think anyone would seriously think that Kobe with last years Cavs win 66 games, or that Lakers with LeBron and this current team/GOAT coach wouldn't be a HEAVY favorite to win the title.
As I'm writing this, I'm thinking about the odds of Lakers winning the title now and how confident I am that they will. I THINK they will, but theres a chance they can lose. If LeBron was on the Lakers however, reversing roles with Kobe, I really would have no doubt that they win the title.
My main point is the KG example, take it into consideration when bringing up rings as a compelling argument in comparing two players.
[QUOTE=elementally morale]Why would more than half of the players in the NBA pick Bryant? They are neither educated nor fans for the most part, but still... and there are some GMs in polls out there taking Bryant as well.
I'm not taking Bryant but is it a sin to have him as #1? I'm not much into this ranking'em head2head thingy, but if anything it should be just like in boxing: You have to beat the champion considerably to become the new champion. LeBron failed to do that in most players' and GMs' eyes. He may have been better but not convincingly enough it seems.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this. There's a debate for a reason and everyone agrees that Kobe and Lebron are the 1/2 guys in the league. If you can't understand why somebody would have one over the other then you're just not doing a very good job at analyzing the game.
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]Check conference splits for Kobe. He was playing worse against the East than the West. And those lower level west teams? He has/had 3 of them in his division past few years.
LeBron won 66 games last year with that team. If you don't think 3 all-stars being added to the roster and the GOAT coach would "help" him or the team, I don't know what to tell you.[/QUOTE]
whoa whoa i never said it wouldn't help Lebron of course it would and that whole "GOAT" ish is overrated everyone knows Kobe is the coach on the court and if he ask's you to do something to do it, you will just for the fact that he knows what he's talking about and knows so much about the game. Now if you think for one second that Kobe would tourch the Knicks, Nets, Pacers, The Bucks, The Bulls, Detriot on a regular basis like Lebron does if not more then idk what to tell you.
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]It's definitely not a sin. When comparing the two though, people often times bring up rings which is an unfair comparison considering the amount of time the two spent so far in the league because at this point, there really isn't much else one could use to argue Kobe over LeBron in my opinon.
Winning rings is a product of a team, not an individual. Does anyone honestly believe KG was better now than he was against the Wolves? No, he was just in a terrible situation that didn't allow him to win a ring. A KG, well removed from his prime was able to win a ring the other year because of the situation he was in, not because he was a better player than in years past.
This is the same idea with LeBron and Kobe. With comparable situations, Kobe didn't make playoffs, and lost twice in the first round while LeBron was in the ECF/Finals playing huge in most of these series'. I find it hard to think anyone would seriously think that Kobe with last years Cavs win 66 games, or that Lakers with LeBron and this current team/GOAT coach wouldn't be a HEAVY favorite to win the title.
[B]As I'm writing this, I'm thinking about the odds of Lakers winning the title now and how confident I am that they will. I THINK they will, but theres a chance they can lose. If LeBron was on the Lakers however, reversing roles with Kobe, I really would have no doubt that they win the title. [/B]
My main point is the KG example, take it into consideration when bringing up rings as a compelling argument in comparing two players.[/QUOTE]
Why would there be no doubt that with Lebron that they would win a chip? that's a very bold statement basically disrespecting Kobe in the process when they already did win last year with him.
Merry Christmas to all! :cheers:
[QUOTE=The GM]Why would there be no doubt that with Lebron that they would win a chip? that's a very bold statement basically disrespecting Kobe in the process when they already did win last year with him.[/QUOTE]
Not disrespect, just a testament to LeBron being better in my opinion. There is no doubt because with a very mediocre team, LeBron has continued to bring them farther in the playoffs and has put together success in the regular season that Kobe couldn't do with a comparable team. I mean, if I told you Cavs would win more games than the Lakers last season considering their teams, you would tell me I'm an idiot, as with anyone else who knows about basketball. What LeBron did with that team is extraordinary and its unbelievable they were on pace to tie records like Boston's home record.
I mean, there are definitely variables to consider, but considering that LeBron won more games with A LOT worse of a team talent wise, what's to say he won't do even better with a much more talented team + the GOAT coach?
[QUOTE=dallaslonghorn]It's not even arguable really. Does anyone honestly think Kobe is taking last year's Cavs team to 66 wins w/a supporting cast of Mo Williams, Delonte West and Z? C'mon.
I usually just avoid Kobe v. LeBron threads. Arguing against Kobe fans is like arguing with girls; they don't respond to logic. Far to much of their self-esteem is tied into this NBA player who doesn't care about them.[/QUOTE]
Every once in a while, a post hits it on the head. Thank you for coming up with these words.
[QUOTE=sixer6ad]Every once in a while, a post hits it on the head. Thank you for coming up with these words.[/QUOTE]
You should tell this to NBA players and GMs. :rockon:
I'd like to see what LeBron would do in the WC with Kwame, Smush and Luke in the starting lineup :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Allstar24]I'm curious to know how you came to this conclusion. Because I vaguely remember you saying the exact same thing about LeBron a few weeks ago :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
I thought this about Lebron when he put up some great numbers in the playoffs, though Kobe once again, 1 week later in the finals proved to me he's still the best, and has been to this point.
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]I find it hard to think anyone would seriously think that Kobe with last years Cavs win 66 games, or that Lakers with LeBron and this current team/GOAT coach wouldn't be a HEAVY favorite to win the title.
[/QUOTE]
Last year's Lakers won 5 more games than the Cavs did, so I don't see why not. In the Lakers system, Lebron would not do as well as Kobe, because the system would not be built around him and Lebron has never played in a distributed offense. Phil Jackson would yell at him when he calls his teammates for an iso play or just dribbles the ball aimlessly for 20 seconds. Lakers' up-tempo offense would be slowed down big time by Lebron. Lebron has never played with a dominant frontline either.
Don't get me wrong Lebron would still do well overall in the Lakers system, but not as well as Kobe. Kind of like how Kobe works better with Shaq than Lebron, it's just his skillset matches better.
By Chris Bernucca
ProBasketballNews.com
updated 10:11 a.m. ET Dec. 24, 2009
Don't believe the hype or numbers. Kobe Bryant is the best player in basketball and no one, not even LeBron James, comes close. The champion Lakers play the Cavaliers on Christmas Day, and of course it's billed as Kobe vs. LeBron. The truth is, the only thing the two truly have in common is they're Nike puppets. One Eastern Conference scout said there's no comparison between Bryant and James, noting the difference in how they perform in the clutch. Bryant has numerous game-winners, while James has a handful. "Kobe is a killer, and to be that, you must be selfish," the scout said. "Kobe has a level of arrogance that he doesn't give a (darn) what anyone thinks. LeBron has always had to share, ever since his childhood. It's not in him to be selfish. Whatever that 'it' is, Kobe has it and LeBron doesn't yet. (James) can get to a point where he's dangerous, but to Kobe's level? I don't think so."
[QUOTE=plowking]And the article lost all credibility at Lebron is the better shooter. Since when? His 3 pt shot is the only thing better this year. Even that at the end of the season won't be the case.[/QUOTE]
It's absurd. Bron does several things better than Kobe but shooting just isn't one of them. Hell, most teams play LeBron for the drive and give him wide open jumpers, he better make them...
You know a writer has an agenda when he compares two players' shooting stats based on "long 2s" and "threes" instead on simply looking at jumpshots taken/made %. Especially when Kobe is going out of his way not to shoot 3s this year!
[QUOTE=sixer6ad]You are the king of posting confidently - as if everyone is supposed to believe you - without ever having proof. The post above is emotion-laden:
"I won't argue the rest.." - why?
"Kobe has proven he's the best..." - how?
"...followed by..." - as if that is the order written in the Bible
"Comfortably." - yah, right...a lot of people believe that
LBJ is a 50% shooter overall this year; Kobe is at 48.8
LBJ is at 53.8% on 2's this year; Kobe is at 52.5%
And you post that Lebron is only better at shooting the 3. It's just not true.
Lebron tells everyone that Kobe is the best player in the league, and Lebron fans - many of them - feel the same way. It's just sad that Kobe fans' lack of confidence causes them to shoot down any facts, theories, etc. which suggest LBJ is better at anything.[/QUOTE]
How am I a Kobe fan? I support the Heat...
Kobe is a better scorer, shooter, defender... Furthermore, they're equal rebounders if anything, with Kobe being better this year. Lebron is only grabbing 1 offensive rebound per game to Kobe's 1.3. Defensive rebounding for wings is the most overrated thing, especially for Lebron considering his team gets out of the way for him on rebounds to start the offense, unlike Kobe.
So a better playmaker and 3pt shooter, and the 3pt shooting won't be the case at the end of the season.
Kobe's influence on a game goes beyond stats. I was one to scoff at this as well, and this is after watching him. Though now I really do see that he impacts the game more than anyone in the NBA today.
Lebron still has a problem that Carmelo had a while back; and a young Jordan may I add. He thinks that proving basketball worth all shows up on the stat sheet, when it is far from the truth.
[QUOTE]LBJ is a 50% shooter overall this year; Kobe is at 48.8
LBJ is at 53.8% on 2's this year; Kobe is at 52.5%[/QUOTE]
LeBron gets way more dunks than Kobe so his fg% should be better. The writer claimed that Bron is a better jumpshooter than Kobe this year. That is patently false
[url]http://www.82games.com/0910/09LAL5.HTM[/url]
[url]http://www.82games.com/0910/09CLE9.HTM[/url]
Kobe takes (and makes) more jumpers...
[QUOTE=plowking]How am I a Kobe fan? I support the Heat...
Kobe is a better scorer, shooter, defender... Furthermore, they're equal rebounders if anything, with Kobe being better this year. Lebron is only grabbing 1 offensive rebound per game to Kobe's 1.3. Defensive rebounding for wings is the most overrated thing, especially for Lebron considering his team gets out of the way for him on rebounds to start the offense, unlike Kobe.
So a better playmaker and 3pt shooter, and the 3pt shooting won't be the case at the end of the season.
Kobe's influence on a game goes beyond stats. I was one to scoff at this as well, and this is after watching him. Though now I really do see that he impacts the game more than anyone in the NBA today.
Lebron still has a problem that Carmelo had a while back; and a young Jordan may I add. He thinks that proving basketball worth all shows up on the stat sheet, when it is far from the truth.[/QUOTE]
Did you really just imply Kobe is a better rebounder than LeBron?
[QUOTE=konex]LeBron gets way more dunks than Kobe so his fg% should be better. The writer claimed that Bron is a better jumpshooter than Kobe this year. That is patently false
[url]http://www.82games.com/0910/09LAL5.HTM[/url]
[url]http://www.82games.com/0910/09CLE9.HTM[/url]
Kobe takes (and makes) more jumpers...[/QUOTE]
And LeBron takes (and makes) more 3 pointers than Kobe. On top of that, from 2 point range, he is more efficient and scores at a higher % (jumpers/dunks/everything included). Why are you faulting a guy (who is one of the best finishers ever) for being able to get to the basket whenever he wants?
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]Did you really just imply Kobe is a better rebounder than LeBron?[/QUOTE]
He is correct, Kobe is a more skilled rebounder. Lebron being a SF puts him in a position to get more rebounds. Kobe gets more offensive rebounds than Lebron which requires more skill.
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]And LeBron takes (and makes) more 3 pointers than Kobe. On top of that, from 2 point range, he is more efficient and scores at a higher % (jumpers/dunks/everything included). Why are you faulting a guy (who is one of the best finishers ever) for being able to get to the basket whenever he wants?[/QUOTE]
Again:
[QUOTE]The writer claimed that Bron is a better [B]jumpshooter[/B] than Kobe this year. That is patently false[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]Did you really just imply Kobe is a better rebounder than LeBron?[/QUOTE]
Most of Lebron's rebounds come from his teammates clearing out on long shots from the opposition and the ball just landing in Lebron's lap pretty much. Rebounding should be measured on offense, as they are contested. Kobe is slightly ahead, though I implied he was better, simply that they are equal.
The players in the league say Kobe...
Fans around the world say Kobe...
Coaches say Kobe...
Kids want to be like Kobe...
At the end of it, it will be Kobe remembered as the better player in the years he is around and getting his 30ppg...
[QUOTE=plowking]Most of Lebron's rebounds come from his teammates clearing out on long shots from the opposition and the ball just landing in Lebron's lap pretty much. Rebounding should be measured on offense, as they are contested. Kobe is slightly ahead, though I implied he was better, simply that they are equal.[/QUOTE]
So the best rebounder is the person who gets the most offensive rebounds?
[QUOTE=plowking]The players in the league say Kobe...
Fans around the world say Kobe...
Coaches say Kobe...
Kids want to be like Kobe...
At the end of it, it will be Kobe remembered as the better player in the years he is around and getting his 30ppg...[/QUOTE]
Pippen has said Bron, so has Jerry West. A bunch of players have as well. Their opinions mean more than yours, I win! I can pull rank too. It's a weak argument.
[QUOTE=cotdt]He is correct, Kobe is a more skilled rebounder. Lebron being a SF puts him in a position to get more rebounds. Kobe gets more offensive rebounds than Lebron which requires more skill.[/QUOTE]
We are talking about impact on the court here, not skill.
Earl Boykins is more skilled than Shaq, that doesn't make him better.
Let me guess, Kobe is a better passer too? Or just more skilled...
This is a first by the way; I've heard anyone try to argue Kobe as a better rebounder than LeBron.
ISH, where trolling happens.
[QUOTE=cotdt]Last year's Lakers won 5 more games than the Cavs did, so I don't see why not. In the Lakers system, Lebron would not do as well as Kobe, because the system would not be built around him and Lebron has never played in a distributed offense. Phil Jackson would yell at him when he calls his teammates for an iso play or just dribbles the ball aimlessly for 20 seconds. Lakers' up-tempo offense would be slowed down big time by Lebron. Lebron has never played with a dominant frontline either.
Don't get me wrong Lebron would still do well overall in the Lakers system, but not as well as Kobe. Kind of like how Kobe works better with Shaq than Lebron, it's just his skillset matches better.[/QUOTE]
LeBron's court vision wouldn't help in the triangle? Do you even know what the triangle entails? An unselfish forward who can run the floor, hit jump shots, and has excellent court vision would thrive in the triangle.
Kobe or LeBron? LeBron or Kobe? Trying to settle on the best player in the NBA -- Lakers guard Kobe Bryant or Cavaliers forward LeBron James -- is no easy choice.
But, according to Sporting News' panel of experts, Bryant is the clear-cut No. 1. Bryant tops SN