Future of Dirk Nowitzki and Mavs now that Spurs eliminated them in round 1

[QUOTE=Diesel J]Avery Johnson >>>>>>>>>Carlisle and Nellie

:pimp:[/QUOTE]

LOL WUT? :roll: Just because he's black doesn't mean he's better than those guys.

[QUOTE=SCdac]Personally, knowing the Spurs and having watched them forever, I wouldn't consider this an "upset" (I picked the Spurs in 6 or 7) because these teams were only 5 wins apart going into the playoffs...

But let's not kid ourselves, everyone and their mom (in the media and ISH) was picking the Mavs in this series.

[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/expertpicks2010nba.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/adrumaddict/expertpicks2010nba2.png[/IMG]

Nobody took the Spurs seriously, but they have the talent, experience, and solid coaching to be a serious threat.[/QUOTE]

Except Kenny Smith, everyone took the Spurs pretty damn seriously...

[QUOTE=D-Rose]Hopefully nobody takes this seriously. If anything Dirk has played with more talent than Duncan.[/QUOTE]

lol! DRob, Ginobili, Parker > anybody Dirk has played with.

[IMG]http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h12/acidkidd/4558235624_a30b8e13cd_o.gif[/IMG]

Trade Dirk

It's about damn time.

[IMG]http://www.gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=403471[/IMG]

Nazi karma rears it's ugly head once more....

IMO the blame for the Mavs failures over the last few years falls squarely on Mark Cuban. He interferes way to much. If he had kept Nash and had quite trying to be the quasi coach I believe the Mavs have at least one championship now. This is not Dirk's fault.

[QUOTE=brwnman]Except Kenny Smith, everyone took the Spurs pretty damn seriously...[/QUOTE]

Let me rephrase, nobody took the Spurs seriously enough to pick them as winners in the series (aside from Hollinger, Thorpe, and Abbot). The Mav's depth and HC advantage appeared to be too much, but what analysts and fans alike failed to see was, the 09 first round exit was not indicative of complete Spurs ball, and the Spurs never really looked "outmatched" by the Mavs in this regular season (albeit some games were without a 'whole' Spurs squad and/or pre-Butler Hawyood trade). I'm not going to dig posts up, but lots of people on this board before the series were calling Mavs in 6-7 games, and some after game 1 felt strongly enough to suggest a "sweep" was coming, but people forgot the Spurs are no joke come the playoffs.

[QUOTE=Hawker]lol! DRob, Ginobili, Parker > anybody Dirk has played with.[/QUOTE]
your kidding right? Nash, Kidd, Marion just for starters. There is a reason the Mavs payroll is 2nd in the league. Cuban has been buying some of the best talent in the league for years. Pop is just better at putting a TEAM together than Cuban. Tim Duncan has always been great at making those around him better (with Pop's help). Dirk does not have the capacity.

[IMG]http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0429/nba_g_duncan11_576.jpg[/IMG]

:lol

Mark Cuban with his Jerry Jones attitude has been the Mavs killer for years. He will not quit shuffling the players in and out. He will not leave a coach at the helm long enough. He can not help himself. He has that "I can buy my way to the top" attitude that ****s up everything in a team sport.

[QUOTE=icemanfan]your kidding right? Nash, Kidd, Marion just for starters. There is a reason the Mavs payroll is 2nd in the league. Cuban has been buying some of the best talent in the league for years. Pop is just better at putting a TEAM together than Cuban. Tim Duncan has always been great at making those around him better (with Pop's help). Dirk does not have the capacity.[/QUOTE]

Marion played like shit this series...did he not. Kidd is s[COLOR="Black"]h[/COLOR]it now. Nash wasn't good back then like he was during his MVP seasons.

Honestly, I think Marion is gone. Dude was non-existant during the series, and seems like the odd man out at this point.

Too many morons in this thread. The only series where Dirk can be blamed is the Golden State Warriors series, and even in that instance the Warriors were hitting ridiculous shots all series and it just seemed like fate that the Mavericks would fall to them.

As far as this series goes the blame should solely be placed upon the role players for Dallas. Kidd, Marion, Terry, these guys were all no shows for Dallas in game 6 and for most of the series. San Antonio closed out on Kidd's three pointers and totally negated his effect on this series, with Kidd taken out of the equation obviously Marion wasn't going to be able to generate any offence, and Terry decided to go cold with his shot and his defence was absolutely dreadful.

Now let's talk about Dirk as a franchise player, because posters like Showtime constantly rag on him and accuse him of being a second banana at best when really it just shows what a moron this person is. The best player Dirk has ever played with is Michael Finley, and a pre-Suns system Steve Nash (About 13ppg and 8apg). During his prime, Dirk's best second banana has been Josh Howard and Jason Terry, Howard has shown since 2007 that he can't be counted on for any role and Jason Terry is a spot up jump shooter. Dirk has never had a Ginobli, Gasol, Stoudamire. Look at the Mavericks' half court offence, it rivals the Cavaliers pathetic offensive gameplan of 'give it to your best player and watch'.

The best option for Dirk right now would seemingly be to put pressure on Dallas to find a legit 2nd option for him, or even bring in a #1 option type of guy like Wade if they can do it. Otherwise, the best fit for Dirk is to opt out and sign a deal with a team like Chicago or Miami. Wade is another guy who hasn't gotten any legitimate help since Shaq, the two of these old rivals teaming up would be deadly.

Either way, I'll let posters like Showtime continue to demonstrate their ignorance in claiming that a league MVP and 25 and 10 playoff performer isn't a legit #1 option.:hammerhead:

[QUOTE=Mr Know It All]Too many morons in this thread. The only series where Dirk can be blamed is the Golden State Warriors series, and even in that instance the Warriors were hitting ridiculous shots all series and it just seemed like fate that the Mavericks would fall to them.

As far as this series goes the blame should solely be placed upon the role players for Dallas. Kidd, Marion, Terry, these guys were all no shows for Dallas in game 6 and for most of the series. San Antonio closed out on Kidd's three pointers and totally negated his effect on this series, with Kidd taken out of the equation obviously Marion wasn't going to be able to generate any offence, and Terry decided to go cold with his shot and his defence was absolutely dreadful.

Now let's talk about Dirk as a franchise player, because posters like Showtime constantly rag on him and accuse him of being a second banana at best when really it just shows what a moron this person is. The best player Dirk has ever played with is Michael Finley, and a pre-Suns system Steve Nash (About 13ppg and 8apg). During his prime, Dirk's best second banana has been Josh Howard and Jason Terry, Howard has shown since 2007 that he can't be counted on for any role and Jason Terry is a spot up jump shooter. Dirk has never had a Ginobli, Gasol, Stoudamire. Look at the Mavericks' half court offence, it rivals the Cavaliers pathetic offensive gameplan of 'give it to your best player and watch'.

The best option for Dirk right now would seemingly be to put pressure on Dallas to find a legit 2nd option for him, or even bring in a #1 option type of guy like Wade if they can do it. Otherwise, the best fit for Dirk is to opt out and sign a deal with a team like Chicago or Miami. Wade is another guy who hasn't gotten any legitimate help since Shaq, the two of these old rivals teaming up would be deadly.

Either way, I'll let posters like Showtime continue to demonstrate their ignorance in claiming that a league MVP and 25 and 10 playoff performer isn't a legit #1 option.:hammerhead:[/QUOTE]

he has the stats of a number 1 guy but stats alone don't make u a good number 1 option. he doesn't have the leadership that the #1 guy should have. when was the last time you saw dirk screaming at his teammate for not playing d or doing something wrong? when was the last time dirk called his team into a huddle and set them straight? i always see kobe, lebron, dwight, wade doing this. The truth is dirk needs a leader on his team cuz he can't lead them.

[QUOTE=icemanfan]your kidding right? Nash, [B]Kidd, Marion[/B] just for starters. There is a reason the Mavs payroll is 2nd in the league. Cuban has been buying some of the best talent in the league for years. Pop is just better at putting a TEAM together than Cuban. Tim Duncan has always been great at making those around him better (with Pop's help). Dirk does not have the capacity.[/QUOTE]

WTF?

Kidd in his prime is one thing, Kidd now is :oldlol:

Marion needs a certain style of play to succeed. He isn't and has never been a franchise player or anyone capable of leading a team to success.

Same old story, keep dirk shuffle everyone else i guess?:oldlol:


Kidd, Terry , Marion, Haywood where the hell were all of you in game 6????
Im not a fan of Carlisles rotations at all. If BB is hot, why leave him out of the game? moron...

For what cuban is spending he should have a much better team, hopefully he goes after some better quality players this offseason..

[QUOTE=Wonder Bread Kid]WTF?

Kidd in his prime is one thing, Kidd now is :oldlol:

Marion needs a certain style of play to succeed. He isn't and has never been a franchise player or anyone capable of leading a team to success.[/QUOTE]
That style of play IS Steve Nash. Just sayin'

[QUOTE=Wonder Bread Kid]WTF?

Kidd in his prime is one thing, Kidd now is :oldlol:

Marion needs a certain style of play to succeed. He isn't and has never been a franchise player or anyone capable of leading a team to success.[/QUOTE]
and D. Rob was never D. Rob after 96. As for your comment on Kidd well he took the Nets to the finals twice. That gives him twice the success of Dirk. By your logic then Dirk "isn't and has never been a franchise player or anyone capable of leading a team to success."

Michael Finley in his prime
Nick Van Exle 9th year in the L
Raef La Frentz in his prime
Steve Nash in his prime
Josh Howard
Antawn Jamison 5th year in the L
Jason Terry 5th year in the L
Kieth Van Horn 7th year in the L
Jerry Stackhouse 9th year in the L
Juwan Howard
Jason Kidd
Eddie Jones
Caron Butler

excuses excuses excuses. There are lots of legit reasons but other players around Drik is NOT one of them.

[QUOTE=icemanfan]Michael Finley in his prime
Nick Van Exle 9th year in the L
Raef La Frentz in his prime
Steve Nash in his prime
Josh Howard
Antawn Jamison 5th year in the L
Jason Terry 5th year in the L
Kieth Van Horn 7th year in the L
Jerry Stackhouse 9th year in the L
Juwan Howard
Jason Kidd
Eddie Jones
Caron Butler

excuses excuses excuses. There are lots of legit reasons but other players around Drik is NOT one of them.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. All these guys are so much better than Parker, Ginobili, Gasol...:hammerhead:

[QUOTE=Mr Know It All]
Either way, I'll let posters like Showtime continue to demonstrate their ignorance in claiming that a league MVP and 25 and 10 playoff performer isn't a legit #1 option.:hammerhead:[/QUOTE]


An MVP award and 25 and 10 in the playoffs is nice but mental fortitude, defense, leadership, and the balls to go up strong in traffic mean more.

All of the aforementioned qualities are not in Dirk's cache.

[QUOTE=asdf1990]he has the stats of a number 1 guy but stats alone don't make u a good number 1 option. he doesn't have the leadership that the #1 guy should have. when was the last time you saw dirk screaming at his teammate for not playing d or doing something wrong? when was the last time dirk called his team into a huddle and set them straight? i always see kobe, lebron, dwight, wade doing this. The truth is dirk needs a leader on his team cuz he can't lead them.[/QUOTE]

when does duncan do stuff like that? and he got 4 rings....
you guys always search for the failure of dirk, obviously its the failure of the mavs organisation. i total see dirk win a ring with a ginobili, parker nucleus, but he's put in a bad position at this point in his career.

[QUOTE=Semi]when does duncan do stuff like that? and he got 4 rings....
you guys always search for the failure of dirk, obviously its the failure of the mavs organisation. i total see dirk win a ring with a ginobili, parker nucleus, but he's put in a bad position at this point in his career.[/QUOTE]


So at what point of his career has he been in a good position?


The Spurs won rings because their best players could get a bucket when the time called for it.....Manu, TP, and TD all give up their bodies and go to the rim and get buckets....and they can all defend theior position.

Dirk is to Sof[b]T[/b] to be the #1 option on a team.....the Mavs won't win with him at the helm.

[QUOTE=coin24]
For what cuban is spending he should have a much better team, hopefully he goes after some better quality players this offseason..[/QUOTE]

What? The mavs were one of the most stacked teams of the NBA. Especially since they got Butler and Haywood for basicly nothing

Dirk Butler Marion Kidd Haywood should have been good enough to at least reach the conference finals

If Wade stays miami and Dirk joins him i am so jumping to miami bandwagon :lol

As is always the case with insidehoops, the posters who were claiming the Mavs were going all the way and was going to knock the Lakers off the 1 seed when they had that 13 game win streak are very, very ****ing quiet now.

Where are the "We got Caron Butler, now we will take over the known world" fans?

Everyone keeps saying that Dirk isn't the superstar to build around but have they gotten that ONLY THREE SUPERSTARS HAVE A WON A TITLE. For the past 10 years it's Spurs, Lakers, with Boston thrown in there once and Miami THAT'S IT FOLKS. Right now Kobe is getting old, Duncan is getting older and there is no way in this world Dirk could end up with the Spurs, Wade couldn't even turn the Boston series into something respectable, and well we know what condition that Detroit team is.


So what superstar should Dallas be building around? Plus stop this nonsense of thinking that there is some imaginary superstar out there waiting to take a team to the Finals. You know what that guy doesn't exist currently even the Mythical Lebron James was swept in his one appearance in the Finals.

Get a damn clue people

I can definitely see this happening, but apparently Dirk is not much for the nightlife so Miami could be a strange fit.

[QUOTE=Sakkreth]If Wade stays miami and Dirk joins him i am so jumping to miami bandwagon :lol[/QUOTE]

he had an amazing series save for one game.[QUOTE=HisAirness3]This does not bode well for Dirk's legacy. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=asdf1990]he has the stats of a number 1 guy but stats alone don't make u a good number 1 option. he doesn't have the leadership that the #1 guy should have. when was the last time you saw dirk screaming at his teammate for not playing d or doing something wrong? when was the last time dirk called his team into a huddle and set them straight? i always see kobe, lebron, dwight, wade doing this. The truth is dirk needs a leader on his team cuz he can't lead them.[/QUOTE]

How does he demonstrate those leadership skills?

Does he put Kidd into a hottube time machine?

Does he perform brain surgery on Carlisle and transplants Larry Brown

webber alluded to the fact that dirk should have won by now because he played with a pre-peak nash and an over the hill kidd. logic fail.

and the mavs will never get a favorable call or great coach until cuban sits the **** down and shuts the **** up.

[QUOTE=D3vIrGiNiz3r]Dirk has never had a single good teammate.[/QUOTE]

:no: No more excuses,Dirk has always had stacked teams.

[B]2000-01[/B]

[QUOTE]Dirk 21.8 ppg,9.2 rpg

Finley 21.5 ppg,5.2 rpg

Howard 17.8 ppg,7.1 rpg

Nash 15.6 ppg,7.3 apg[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2001.html[/url]

[B]2001-2002[/B]

[QUOTE]
Dirk 23.4 ppg,9.9 rpg

Finley 20.6 ppg,5.2 rpg

Nash 17.9 ppg,7.7 apg

Van Exel 13.2 ppg,4.2 apg

Howard 12.9 ppg,7.4 rpg[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2002.html[/url]

[B]2002-2003[/B]

[QUOTE]
Dirk 25.1 ppg,9.9 rpg

Finley 19.3 ppg,5.8 rpg

Nash 17.7 ppg,7.3 apg

Van Exel 12.5 ppg,4.3 apg[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2003.html[/url]

[B]2003-2004[/B]

[QUOTE]
Dirk 21.8 ppg,8.7 rpg

Finley 18.6 ppg,4.5 rpg

Jamison 14.8 ppg,6.3 rpg

Nash 14.5 ppg,8.8 apg

Toine 14.0 ppg,8.3 rpg

Howard 8.6 ppg,5.5rpg[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2004.html[/url]

Lebron,KG,Duncan,Shaq... would have multiple rings.

[QUOTE=Anaximandro1]:no: No more excuses,Dirk has always had stacked teams.

[B]2000-01[/B]



[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2001.html[/url]

[B]2001-2002[/B]



[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2002.html[/url]

[B]2002-2003[/B]



[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2003.html[/url]

[B]2003-2004[/B]



[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2004.html[/url]

Lebron,KG,Duncan,Shaq... would have multiple rings.[/QUOTE]

Very true.

[QUOTE=R.I.P.]How does he demonstrate those leadership skills?

Does he put Kidd into a hottube time machine?

Does he perform brain surgery on Carlisle and transplants Larry Brown

The Kidd/hot tub time machine thing was horribly lame.

Seriously tho, Dirk was flat out terrible in crunch time last night. I give him all the credit in the world for dropping 15 in the 3rd quarter last night to get his team back in the game but when shots needed to be made he wasn't making them.

During the last 5 mins, he was taking highly contested fadeaways and settling for horrible shots that just clanged off the front of the rim. He either needs to work the ball around or work for a better shot because a pump fake and then a contested fadeaway is not a good shot when you are down 5 with a few minutes left. Even if he would have made them I would be saying they were bad shots.

[QUOTE=Anaximandro1]:no: No more excuses,Dirk has always had stacked teams.

[B]2000-01[/B]



[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2001.html[/url]

[B]2001-2002[/B]



[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2002.html[/url]

[B]2002-2003[/B]



[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2003.html[/url]

[B]2003-2004[/B]



[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2004.html[/url]

Lebron,KG,Duncan,Shaq... would have multiple rings.[/QUOTE]


Hahahahah. Yes. lets just simply look at ppg numbers....because that is what wins in the playoffs. Because shawn bradley protecting the rim is going to get it done in the playoffs....oh wait...don't forget laettner....and don't forget that juwan howard, eisley, and hubert davis all played key roles. yea....that team was good enough to win it.

Yea....because Raef Lafrentz and Najera backin and bradley back in 2002 and 2003 was a good enough front line to handle shaq and duncan. I must be high for me to miss this.

Lets look at 2004 playoffs for some of the players you mention:

Marquis daniels - 42% and 16 points
Steve nash - 39% and 14 points
Finley - 38% and 13 points
Jamsion - 45% and 13 points
Walker - 36% and 10 points
Howard - 22% and 5 points
Najera - 45% and 2 points

DIRK - 45% and 27 points and 12 boards

Notice how the mavs didn't even have a CENTER that played minutes in the playoffs. Dude....should i continue. You are referencing juwan howard and antoine walker as vital players for the playoffs. Are you serious? Notice how nash and finley can't even shoot over 40% in a tough playoff series. I'm not even talking about the fact that finley and nash are awful perimeter defenders.

Lets continue:

in 2005 the Mavericks had only 1 center in Dampier and he only played a little over half as much as the other starters. Yea...because relying soley on Dampier to protect the paint and rebound is going to be a good idea in the playoffs.

2006:
mavs make the NBA finals after beating a better Spurs team with a better coach and a better built team for playoff success
Dirk's game 7 numbers in San Antonio: Don't forget that he made a 3 point play to send it to OT.

Dirk just had 37 and 15 on the road in a game 7 on 55% shooting. By the way....Dampier...the mavs only center....finished with 6 points and 3 rebounds and 1 block. But yea.....having only one awful center should be good enough to go up against guys like Duncan and Shaq.

2007:

Played poorly....along with everyone else on the team except for josh howard. Avery go seriously out coached again. Oh....and dampier/diop combined to only play 178 minutes the entire series. yea....getting that out of the center position will win in the playoffs.


We all know the recent history so I won't go through it. For the last ****ing time. You can't win in the playoffs without a decent center protecting the rim and rebounding.....and you can't win if you don't have at least a couple decent perimeter defenders. Just stop it.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]Hahahahah. Yes. lets just simply look at ppg numbers....because that is what wins in the playoffs. Because shawn bradley protecting the rim is going to get it done in the playoffs....oh wait...don't forget laettner....and don't forget that juwan howard, eisley, and hubert davis all played key roles. yea....that team was good enough to win it.

Yea....because Raef Lafrentz and Najera backin and bradley back in 2002 and 2003 was a good enough front line to handle shaq and duncan. I must be high for me to miss this.

Lets look at 2004 playoffs for some of the players you mention:

Marquis daniels - 42% and 16 points
Steve nash - 39% and 14 points
Finley - 38% and 13 points
Jamsion - 45% and 13 points
Walker - 36% and 10 points
Howard - 22% and 5 points
Najera - 45% and 2 points

DIRK - 45% and 27 points and 12 boards

Notice how the mavs didn't even have a CENTER that played minutes in the playoffs. Dude....should i continue. You are referencing juwan howard and antoine walker as vital players for the playoffs. Are you serious? Notice how nash and finley can't even shoot over 40% in a tough playoff series. I'm not even talking about the fact that finley and nash are awful perimeter defenders.

Lets continue:

in 2005 the Mavericks had only 1 center in Dampier and he only played a little over half as much as the other starters. Yea...because relying soley on Dampier to protect the paint and rebound is going to be a good idea in the playoffs.

2006:
mavs make the NBA finals after beating a better Spurs team with a better coach and a better built team for playoff success
Dirk's game 7 numbers in San Antonio: Don't forget that he made a 3 point play to send it to OT.

Dirk just had 37 and 15 on the road in a game 7 on 55% shooting. By the way....Dampier...the mavs only center....finished with 6 points and 3 rebounds and 1 block. But yea.....having only one awful center should be good enough to go up against guys like Duncan and Shaq.

2007:

Played poorly....along with everyone else on the team except for josh howard. Avery go seriously out coached again. Oh....and dampier/diop combined to only play 178 minutes the entire series. yea....getting that out of the center position will win in the playoffs.


We all know the recent history so I won't go through it. For the last ****ing time. You can't win in the playoffs without a decent center protecting the rim and rebounding.....and you can't win if you don't have at least a couple decent perimeter defenders. Just stop it.[/QUOTE]

I think everyone on both sides of the argument is missing the point. Dirk has had talent. Dirk has had good talent. Sometimes they're older than they should be but they're still big names and guys that can contribute.

However, the talent that the Mavs get is not the right talent. Things Dirk needs are a low post threat and an above average SG that can create his own shot. Dirk's always had great pgs and decent to above average small forwards by his side. Dirk doesn't need an amazing pg though b/c he can create his own shot better than most anyone in the league. Dirk doesn't need a great small forward b/c Dirk is essentially a small forward in a 7 foot frame. So getting great pg talent and sf talent is redundant to Dirk's skillset. Getting a quality big man is first and foremost the thing that Cuban should've been focusing on.

And I love the arguments that Shaq/Kobe/Lebron/etc. would've won with that talent. No shitt. They're all better players than Dirk from a career standpoint. Nothing wrong with that and I don't think it's a knock on Dirk. They're just better players. Dirk is one of the top 5-7 players over the past decade and a top 40 all time, but those guys are just flat out better. Outside of Kobe/Shaq/Duncan, no superstar has consistently been as good as Dirk has over the past decade. This whole "he can't lead his team to a championship" talk is crazy, because no other superstars can either. Wade did once with a motivated Shaq, but he is also better than Dirk.

I just don't understand who this superstar is that CAN lead their team without great help tailored to their game. TMac? Can't even get out of the first round. Kidd? Made the finals and did nothing there. Iverson? He's still living off of a single Finals run to his entire legacy. CP or DWill? Nothing worth noting there. Carmelo? Less playoff success than Dirk and until this year, consistently a worse performer as well. Howard? Made the finals and didn't do anything. Webber? Never even made it to the finals. KG? Perennial first round exit until he joined the all star team that is Boston of 2 years ago.

Literally, Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe are it. I don't see the shame in Dirk's resume' thus far and why he gets negative posts about him more than any of these other guys. Hell, his playoff stats are so much better than most of these people can dream of. His close out game stats are through the roof. Is it dissapointing for their team? I'm sure it is. I'm a Wizards fan though. I know dissapointment. I'd rather have a team make the playoffs every year, get to the finals, have a player that steps his game up in the playoffs, etc.

I feel like Dirk is getting more than his fair share of the blame. In the end, he's the team star and that is to be expected, but I just don't see how he is mostly to blame when his teammates didn't step up this year at all, but he did.

And to the guy that said Dirk doesn't show leadership b/c he doesn't yell at his teammates...I remember when he yelled at Terry for not closing out on Nash for a game tying three in the playoffs I think 3 years ago. Dirk got lambasted for not being a good teammate and yelling at his lead guard. Why is it when he does it then it is being a bad teammate, but when he doesn't do it now, it's that he's a bad leader?

[QUOTE=ACCBaller1403]I think everyone on both sides of the argument is missing the point. Dirk has had talent. Dirk has had good talent. Sometimes they're older than they should be but they're still big names and guys that can contribute.

However, the talent that the Mavs get is not the right talent. Things Dirk needs are a low post threat and an above average SG that can create his own shot. Dirk's always had great pgs and decent to above average small forwards by his side. Dirk doesn't need an amazing pg though b/c he can create his own shot better than most anyone in the league. Dirk doesn't need a great small forward b/c Dirk is essentially a small forward in a 7 foot frame. So getting great pg talent and sf talent is redundant to Dirk's skillset. Getting a quality big man is first and foremost the thing that Cuban should've been focusing on.

And I love the arguments that Shaq/Kobe/Lebron/etc. would've won with that talent. No shitt. They're all better players than Dirk from a career standpoint. Nothing wrong with that and I don't think it's a knock on Dirk. They're just better players. Dirk is one of the top 5-7 players over the past decade and a top 40 all time, but those guys are just flat out better. Outside of Kobe/Shaq/Duncan, no superstar has consistently been as good as Dirk has over the past decade. This whole "he can't lead his team to a championship" talk is crazy, because no other superstars can either. Wade did once with a motivated Shaq, but he is also better than Dirk.

I just don't understand who this superstar is that CAN lead their team without great help tailored to their game. TMac? Can't even get out of the first round. Kidd? Made the finals and did nothing there. Iverson? He's still living off of a single Finals run to his entire legacy. CP or DWill? Nothing worth noting there. Carmelo? Less playoff success than Dirk and until this year, consistently a worse performer as well. Howard? Made the finals and didn't do anything. Webber? Never even made it to the finals. KG? Perennial first round exit until he joined the all star team that is Boston of 2 years ago.

Literally, Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe are it. I don't see the shame in Dirk's resume' thus far and why he gets negative posts about him more than any of these other guys. Hell, his playoff stats are so much better than most of these people can dream of. His close out game stats are through the roof. Is it dissapointing for their team? I'm sure it is. I'm a Wizards fan though. I know dissapointment. I'd rather have a team make the playoffs every year, get to the finals, have a player that steps his game up in the playoffs, etc.

I feel like Dirk is getting more than his fair share of the blame. In the end, he's the team star and that is to be expected, but I just don't see how he is mostly to blame when his teammates didn't step up this year at all, but he did.

And to the guy that said Dirk doesn't show leadership b/c he doesn't yell at his teammates...I remember when he yelled at Terry for not closing out on Nash for a game tying three in the playoffs I think 3 years ago. Dirk got lambasted for not being a good teammate and yelling at his lead guard. Why is it when he does it then it is being a bad teammate, but when he doesn't do it now, it's that he's a bad leader?[/QUOTE]

Ok. I agree that he has had talent and some big names.....but you are dead right that it has been the wrong type of talent. But even more so, that talent has just not been as good as the other championship teams. Kobe and Shaq will both go down at 2 of the top 15 players ever and they both played for arguably the best coach ever. Dirk would have easily won multiple titles if he got to play with a Paul Pierce/ Joe Johnson type player....let alone a top 15 player of all time. So while I agree with most of what you said, and I agree that Dirk is not the same league with kobe, shaq, duncan, lebron, wade....I don't think its something we will ever know about for championships. For Dirk to come this close and have so much success in this era in the West without a proper team built around him makes me wonder. For example, the Lakers would not have won a title with Gasol. You could put so many different "big name players" in for Gasol and very very few would have been good enough to win a title. I guess my main point is that even shaq, duncan, and kobe needed at least one other hall of fame player and a great coach to win championships.

Plain and simple.....that is something that players like KG and Dirk just never had during their primes. KG got it in Boston and he won a title.....KG still doesn't get enough credit for that. He was the Celtics best player throughout the playoffs....and owned a tough matchup against Gasol in the finals. On the other hand, Kobe got outplayed by Paul Pierce in the finals and his team lost. What if that had been Kobe's only shot at leading a team to a title? He would have failed miserably.....but he got another shot because he had a team properly built around him and with a 5 year championship window. So i see what you are saying, but its not fair to compare apples and oranges.

The criteria to win a title in the NBA is very simple. Multiple hall of fame players and great coaching along with a team built around its stars that can defend and protect the rim. No player in history (other than Hakeem with the 94 Rockets) has carried a team to a championship all by himself. The Pistons in 04 were just a great group of players that made up a perfectly built team to win in the playoffs. But those are the only 2 examples....AS I KEEP SAYING...of teams winning it without the above criteria.

Is anyone on here going to tell me that Dirk would not have won at least 1 title with Paul Pierce playing the role of "robin" over the last 7 years? Seriously.