Is Kobe better than Prime Shaq?

To Kobe fans, Kobe is a great player but he benefitted greatly from playing with Prime Shaq. Prime Shaq commanded double teams and triple teams with opened up so much space for the rest of the team to work (Kobe). Teams had to change their game plan so much for Shaq. Shaq's scoring is often highlighted but let's not forget his role in the triangle offense and his intimidation factor in the paint and his underrated defense.

You may talk about Shaq losing in the 1995 finals but he put up 28 PPG 12.5 RPG 6.3 APG 2.5 BPG on 59% FG while holding his own against an all-time great center in Hakeem. Shaq showed up with his teammates didn't.

As Shaq aged his game had to change as well and it showed in the 2006 Finals. He deferred to Wade as his offense declined but he still commanded respect in the paint and did his part to anchor that championship defense.

Let us also not forget the 2004 Finals where Shaq put up 26.6 PPG and 10.5 RPG on 63% FG while Kobe chucked his way to 22.6 PPG 4.4 APG on 38% FG 17% 3PT and refused to feed Shaq when Shaq was dominating inside. Cost them both a ring.

I'm not even saying Kobe is a bad player, he's an all-time great but there are very few, if any player better than Prime Shaq.

[QUOTE=Prime_Shaq][B]To Kobe fans, Kobe is a great player but he benefitted greatly from playing with Prime Shaq.[/B] Prime Shaq commanded double teams and triple teams with opened up so much space for the rest of the team to work (Kobe). Teams had to change their game plan so much for Shaq. Shaq's scoring is often highlighted but let's not forget his role in the triangle offense and his intimidation factor in the paint and his underrated defense.

You may talk about Shaq losing in the 1995 finals but he put up 28 PPG 12.5 RPG 6.3 APG 2.5 BPG on 59% FG while holding his own against an all-time great center in Hakeem. Shaq showed up with his teammates didn't.

As Shaq aged his game had to change as well and it showed in the 2006 Finals. He deferred to Wade as his offense declined but he still commanded respect in the paint and did his part to anchor that championship defense.

Let us also not forget the 2004 Finals where Shaq put up 26.6 PPG and 10.5 RPG on 63% FG while Kobe chucked his way to 22.6 PPG 4.4 APG on 38% FG 17% 3PT and refused to feed Shaq when Shaq was dominating inside. Cost them both a ring.

I'm not even saying Kobe is a bad player, he's an all-time great but there are very few, if any player better than Prime Shaq.[/QUOTE]


And Shaq didn't benefit greatly from playing with Kobe?

tell me.. what did Shaq do without Kobe?

He played with 2 other all nba first team players.. so obiously the MDE won with those guys multipe times and made multiple finals????

SHOW ME??

Kobe mad 3 straight finals with a 18/10 PF next to him..

Shaq needed Kobe to lead the 4th quarter playoff scoring in b2b years (01 & 02) while Kobe averaged 28/6/6 and Wade had the an historic or rigged (whichever you choose) to give Shaq his only ring w/o Kobe

Kobe is the only player in the top 10 all time to make 3 straight finals twice in his career.. IMPACT

What's more replacable if you're a GM?

A 28/6/6 SG with all NBA defense or a 18/10 PF with no all nba defese

Kobe did so much more without Shaq that Shaq did with him

THAT HAS TO COUNT FOR SOMETHING..? considering most idiots were compelletley judging Kobe's career based on what he was able to do without Shaq..

of course that was before Kobe led his team to 3 straight finals with nothing more than an all NBA 3rd team player...

something Shaq could never do

you've got to love how ironic the time period for "prime Shaq" is

just so happens that Shaq hits his "prime" as soon as Kobe becomes a supestar

just so happens that Shaq's "prime" ends as soon as Kobe gets injured in 03..

lets just ignore that the Lakers had 3 all star guard beside Kobe (Penny, Van Exel, Jones) before this and never won a finals game with them

lets just ignore that Lakers in 99 were swept by the Spurs... and then in 01 Shaq puts up the almost the same production and all of a sudden the Lakers dominantly sweep the Spurs..

:roll: :roll:

had nothing do with Kobe averaing 33/7/7..

it was all "prime Shaq"

please.. please.. somebody explain the difference betwee 99 & 2000/01 Shaq.. besides the fact that Duncan wasn't playing 00 and in 01 Kobe was putting up Jordan esque numbers

LOL @ Kobe trolls

Oh dey mad :roll:



PLease tell me how valuable Kobe's 15ppg on 41% shooting was crucial for Shaq's 2000 championship?? :oldlol:



Kobe was along for ride, don't get it twisted. They win with or without Kobe.

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]you've got to love how ironic the time period for "prime Shaq" is

just so happens that Shaq hits his "prime" as soon as Kobe becomes a supestar

just so happens that Shaq's "prime" ends as soon as Kobe gets injured in 03..

lets just ignore that the Lakers had 3 all star guard beside Kobe (Penny, Van Exel, Jones) before this and never won a finals game with them

lets just ignore that Lakers in 99 were swept by the Spurs... and then in 01 Shaq puts up the almost the same production and all of a sudden the Lakers dominantly sweep the Spurs..

:roll: :roll:

had nothing do with Kobe averaing 33/7/7..

it was all "prime Shaq"

please.. please.. somebody explain the difference betwee 99 & 2000/01 Shaq.. besides the fact that Duncan wasn't playing 00 and in 01 Kobe was putting up Jordan esque numbers[/QUOTE]
Moreso than Kobe was Phil Jackson's motivation and triangle offense, brought out the best in Shaq's abilities. You compare Penny and Pau, how about the rest of the roster? Kobe had by far the best frontcourt in the league with Bynum/Gasol/Odom. Prime Shaq didnt end in 2003, you could still see how dominant he was till 2006. He was even robbed of a MVP in 2005.

[QUOTE=Prime_Shaq]Moreso than Kobe was Phil Jackson's motivation and triangle offense, brought out the best in Shaq's abilities. You compare Penny and Pau, how about the rest of the roster? [B]Kobe had by far the best frontcourt in the league with Bynum/Gasol/Odom.[/B] Prime Shaq didnt end in 2003, you could still see how dominant he was till 2006. He was even robbed of a MVP in 2005.[/QUOTE]

:roll: :roll:

Utah, Celtics, Houston all had better front courts without even really trying to think..

Duncan, Dirk, KG, Dwight > Pau

it's not like Pau wasn't good, but you idiots overrate him to the point where he needs to be brought down

please tell me Pau/Odom was better than having Dwight/Gorat..KG/Perkins/ Duncan/whoever...Milsap/Boozer/Okur...Yao/Scola/Battieryou

are really bringing up Bynum who's best playoff run during championshiop years was 9/7.. and the year before that was 6/4

guess we should be bringing up Luc Longley and Chris Anderso too? Elden Campbell>>>


Kobe & Phil made 3 straight finals and won 2 b2b rings with an 18/10 guy replacing Shaq..

Shaq had 20/5/5 guys in place of Kobe..

and never did shit..


simple question try not to dodge this.. but what did Shaq do without Kobe?

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]:roll: :roll:

Utah, Celtics, Houston all had better front courts without even really trying to think..

Duncan, Dirk, KG, Dwight > Pau

it's not like Pau wasn't good, but you idiots overrate him to the point where he needs to be brought down

please tell me Pau/Odom was better than having Dwight/Gorat..KG/Perkins/ Duncan/whoever...Milsap/Boozer/Okur...Yao/Scola/Battier

Kobe & Phil made 3 straight finals and wo 2 b2b rings with an 18/10 guy replacing Shaq..


simple question try not to dodge this.. but what did Shaq do without Kobe?[/QUOTE]
Hmmm... reach the Finals in his 3rd year, put up monster stats ever since he entered the league and ultimately did win a ring without Kobe. Btw the Gasol/Bynum/Odom frontline was the best frontcourt, undoubtedly.

[QUOTE] Hmmm... reach the Finals in his 3rd year[/QUOTE]


and got swept with an all nba first team guard beside him

[QUOTE]put up monster stats ever since he entered the league [B]and ultimately did win a ring without Kobe[/B] [/QUOTE]

only with the 3rd GOAT shooting guard of all time having an all time great/rigged finals


[QUOTE] Btw the Gasol/Bynum/Odom frontline was the best frontcourt, undoubtedly.[/QUOTE]

already destroyed this

Utah, Boston, Houston and Orlando all better

[QUOTE=Prime_Shaq]Hmmm... reach the Finals in his 3rd year, put up monster stats ever since he entered the league and ultimately did win a ring without Kobe. Btw the Gasol/Bynum/Odom frontline was the best frontcourt, undoubtedly.[/QUOTE]

Don't bother...they are Kobe stans. They aren't worth it.

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]and got swept with an all nba first team guard beside him



only with the 3rd GOAT shooting guard of all time having an all time great/rigged finals


[Prime_Shaq]Btw the Gasol/Bynum/Odom frontline was the best frontcourt, undoubtedly.[/QUOTE]

already destroyed this

Utah, Boston, Houston and Orlando all better[/QUOTE]
Already posted his 1995 Finals stats earlier, that lost was not on him. The rest is debatable but at the end of the day he did win a ring. You didn't destroy anything, all you stated was your opinion.

Let's compare Kobe's help with Pau with the the help Shaq had with Kobe

Shaq had a

29/7/6 all nba defensive shooting guard

9/8 PF no all defensive comming off the bench

10/5/4 SF starter


Kobe had a

18/10 no all defensive team PF

11/8 no all defensive PF comming off the bench

11/4/2 no all defensive SF starter

[QUOTE=Prime_Shaq]
Already posted his 1995 Finals stats earlier, that lost was not on him. The rest is debatable but at the end of the day he did win a ring. You didn't destroy anything, all you stated was your opinion.[/QUOTE]

Dwight, Dirk, Duncan, KG >> Pau

Dwight 09>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pau

Dirk 10 >>>>>>>> Pau


KG 08>>>>>>> Pau


2009 Jazz: Memhet Okur: 17/8 Carlos Boozer: 16/10 Paul Milspap: 14/9

That's not even bringing up all NBA Center Yao who was paired with Scola, Artest and Landry

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]Dwight, Dirk, Duncan, KG >> Pau

Dwight 09>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pau

Dirk 10 >>>>>>>> Pau


KG 08>>>>>>> Pau


2009 Jazz: Memhet Okur: 17/8 Carlos Boozer: 16/10 Paul Milspap: 14/9

That's not even bringing up all NBA Center Yao who was paired with Scola, Artest and Landry[/QUOTE]

What about the best Center in the league Andrew Bynum and a top 5 SF in Lamar Odom? And what about the best coach in the league in Phil Jackson?

Those teams win with or without Kobe as well.

[QUOTE=dubeta][B]What about the best Center in the league Andrew Bynum [/B]and a top 5 SF in Lamar Odom? And what about the best coach in the league in Phil Jackson?

Those teams win with or without Kobe as well.[/QUOTE]


Andrew Bynum during Lakers 3 finals runs

08: DNP

09: 6/4

10: 9/7

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]Let's compare Kobe's help with Pau with the the help Shaq had with Kobe

Shaq had a

29/7/6 all nba defensive shooting guard

9/8 PF no all defensive comming off the bench

10/5/4 SF starter


Kobe had a

18/10 no all defensive team PF

11/8 no all defensive PF comming off the bench

11/4/2 no all defensive SF starter[/QUOTE]
What's the point of this? So you're telling me the 00-02 teams were more top heavy? Of course they were, they had the best 1-2 punch in NBA history. The 08-10 teams were more complete overall. Are you trying to discount the defensive impact of the Bynum + Gasol frontline? Or the defensive versatility of Odom/Ariza/Artest?

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]Dwight, Dirk, Duncan, KG >> Pau

Dwight 09>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pau

Dirk 10 >>>>>>>> Pau


KG 08>>>>>>> Pau


2009 Jazz: Memhet Okur: 17/8 Carlos Boozer: 16/10 Paul Milspap: 14/9

That's not even bringing up all NBA Center Yao who was paired with Scola, Artest and Landry[/QUOTE]
Dwight > Pau
Dirk > Pau
KG > Pau

Bynum + Pau + Odom > Dwight + Rashard
Bynum + Pau + Odom > Dirk + ???
Bynum + Pau + Odom > Okur(Jump shooter) + Boozer (No D) + Millsap (Serviceable, but not like current Millsap)

[QUOTE=dubeta]What about the best Center in the league Andrew Bynum and a top 5 SF in Lamar Odom? And what about the best coach in the league in Phil Jackson?

[B]Those teams win with or without Kobe as well.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well this is just not true.

[QUOTE=Prime_Shaq]What's the point of this? So you're telling me the 00-02 teams were more top heavy? Of course they were, they had the best 1-2 punch in NBA history. The 08-10 teams were more complete overall. Are you trying to discount the defensive impact of the Bynum + Gasol frontline? [B]Or the defensive versatility of Odom/Ariza/Artest?[/B][/QUOTE]

yeah man remember when they were all on the same team?

why am i even bothering..


Kobe did more with less than Shaq did..

Kobe's only all NBA first team teammate was Shaq.. they won 3 straight finals..

Shaq had Penny and Wade as first team all nba players.. never got close to 3 straight finals and FMVP's..

Kobe had 3rd team all NBA Pau.. they made 3 straight finals and won 2 b2b finals..

you tell me what's more difficult to find?

a 28/6/6 SG with and NBA defense

or an 18/10 PF who never makes an all defensive team

Kobe and Shaq were the best duo in NBA history IMO

but lets be real

Kobe got way closer to duplicating the success he had with Shaq than Shaq ever got to duplicating the success he had with Kobe


and you know if this was the other way around... nobody would be arguing otherwise


if Shaq went on to win 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with a 20/5/5 guard Kobe would never live that down

but..

Kobe wins 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with an 18/8 PF and still gets no respect

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]yeah man remember when they were all on the same team?

why am i even bothering..


Kobe did more with less than Shaq did..

Kobe's only all NBA first team teammate was Shaq.. they won 3 straight finals..

Shaq had Penny and Wade as first team all nba players.. never got close to 3 straight finals and FMVP's..

Kobe had 3rd team all NBA Pau.. they made 3 straight finals and won 2 b2b finals..

you tell me what's more difficult to find?

a 28/6/6 SG with and NBA defense

or an 18/10 PF who never makes an all defensive team[/QUOTE]
You keep emphasizing on only the 2nd option on each team, why not try to look at the entire team?

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]Kobe and Shaq were the best duo in NBA history IMO

but lets be real

Kobe got way closer to duplicating the success he had with Shaq than Shaq ever got to duplicating the success he had with Kobe


and you know if this was the other way around... nobody would be arguing otherwise


if Shaq went on to win 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with a 20/5/5 guard Kobe would never live that down

but..

Kobe wins 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with an 18/8 PF and still gets no respect[/QUOTE]
Agreed with the first point. However I think you misunderstand me, I do respect Kobe. Shaq needed Kobe and Kobe needed Shaq but Kobe was not better than Prime Shaq.

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]Kobe and Shaq were the best duo in NBA history IMO

but lets be real

Kobe got way closer to duplicating the success he had with Shaq than Shaq ever got to duplicating the success he had with Kobe


and you know if this was the other way around... nobody would be arguing otherwise


if Shaq went on to win 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with a 20/5/5 guard Kobe would never live that down

but..

Kobe wins 2 rings and 2 FMVP's with an 18/8 PF and [B]still gets no respect[/B][/QUOTE]

Considering Gasol was the better overall player (Higher Player Efficiency Rating and Win Shares, while being more efficient, getting more rebounds and blocks) it should be that way.

Yes

[QUOTE=Prime_Shaq]already destroyed this

Utah, Boston, Houston and Orlando all better[/QUOTE]
Already posted his 1995 Finals stats earlier, that lost was not on him. The rest is debatable but at the end of the day he did win a ring. You didn't destroy anything, all you stated was your opinion.[/QUOTE]

The point is that he produced the same way from 95-99, but his teams never came close to the amount of success they did with Kobe in a superstar role from 00-02 :confusedshrug:, how did Lakers all of a sudden go from not having HCA to dominating the WC Playoffs 11-0 the same damn year? Shaq's numbers did not go up, matter fact I'm sure 2000 was his best year, and even then they needed Kobe to have a game-saving block and put up 25/12/7/4 in Game 7 against Portland to even make the Finals and it goes 7 games at least if Kobe misses Game 4 of the Finals as well.

****** still acting like Shaq just ran through every opponent on his own and that any guard could have won rings with him in Kobe's place when two of the 3 runs came down to clutch plays by Kobe, Shaw and Horry...and you know damn well the 01 Lakers ain't going through the West like that with no HCA with someone like AI in Kobe's place, who could never average 30 ppg as efficiently as Kobe did through the first 3 rounds + the elite defense, rebounding and playmaking.

Hell no

[QUOTE=dubeta]Considering Gasol was the better overall player (Higher Player Efficiency Rating and Win Shares, while being more efficient, getting more rebounds and blocks) it should be that way.[/QUOTE]

Gasol is a big man, of course he gonna get more boards and blocks playing under the basket and his efficiency is going to be higher

but who was the leader of that team? Who set Pau up for those easy baskets? who ran the triangle? who shot 46% through 3 Playoff runs with mostly taking contested mid-range/3pt shots?

I can put up at least 10 games Kobe has from those 3 runs that shit on anything that Pau did.

I guess 08-10 Pau is better than 96-98 Jordan as well?

[QUOTE=dubeta]LOL @ Kobe trolls

Oh dey mad :roll:



PLease tell me how valuable Kobe's 15ppg on 41% shooting was crucial for Shaq's 2000 championship?? :oldlol:
.[/QUOTE]

It was 36%fg.

Is anyone actually trying to argue this? :biggums:

[img]http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/bp.gif[/img]

I don't agree but MarkMadsen making a strong case for who's better All-time.

Single handedly soloing this thread.

[QUOTE=pauk][img]http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/bp.gif[/img][/QUOTE]

De -la
sun de-laaa

[QUOTE=HOoopCityJones]I don't agree but MarkMadsen making a strong case for who's better All-time.

Single handedly soloing this thread.[/QUOTE]

Tbf you and Mark Madsen are the same guy.

[QUOTE=Mr Feeny]Tbf you and Mark Madsen are the same guy.[/QUOTE]

Just like you're the same guy as every Kobe hater on this board. All of you post exactly the same.

I'm positive you're Arbitrary's alt though.

[QUOTE=HOoopCityJones]Just like you're the same guy as every Kobe hater on this board. All of you post exactly the same.

I'm positive you're Arbitrary's alt though.[/QUOTE]

A.W. and I have fallen out plenty of times. Anyone on this board knows we're not the same guy. We do think you know nothing about basketball though, as does the majority of this board. Youre always welcome to run an I.P. check.

Just because multiple people on this board think you're an idiot, it doesn't make them all alts:cheers:

[QUOTE=HOoopCityJones]I don't agree but MarkMadsen making a strong case for who's better All-time.

Single handedly soloing this thread.[/QUOTE]

The dude thinks value is measured by FGA. Wouldn't know a "strong case" if it hit him in the mouth.

Prime Shaq > Kobe, this is worse than the thread trying to create a debate about Duncan's deserved position above Kobe.

[QUOTE=24-Inch_Chrome]The dude thinks value is measured by FGA. Wouldn't know a "strong case" if it hit him in the mouth.

Prime Shaq > Kobe, this is worse than the thread trying to create a debate about Duncan's deserved position above Kobe.[/QUOTE]

One of the Lerbon stans bumped this though, I swear you guys act like Kobe fans just come out the woodwork to gloat about him or something . Some insecure prick always wants to take a shot or bring up so old extreme tired debate when they feel Lebron is having a rough day at ISH.

*Looks a dubeta*

[QUOTE=HOoopCityJones]One of the Lerbon stans bumped this though, I swear you guys act like Kobe fans just come out the woodwork to gloat about him or something . Some insecure prick always wants to take a shot or bring up so old extreme tired debate when they feel Lebron is having a rough day at ISH.

*Looks a dubeta*[/QUOTE]

Oh shit, didn't notice that the thread started in 2010. :oldlol:

I'll be honest though, I look at the LeBron family and Kobe stans with equal amounts of disdain. It's true that dubeta is pretty bad but there are some equally shitty posters on the other side.

[QUOTE=24-Inch_Chrome]Oh shit, didn't notice that the thread started in 2010. :oldlol:

I'll be honest though, I look at the LeBron family and Kobe stans with equal amounts of disdain. It's true that dubeta is pretty bad but there are some equally shitty posters on the other side.[/QUOTE]

Well, MarkMadsen ain't one of them, he actually makes pretty legit arguments. It may not resonate with everyone ,but he's not in the strictly red for a reason . :applause:

[QUOTE=HOoopCityJones]Well, MarkMadsen ain't one of them, he actually makes pretty legit arguments. It may not resonate with everyone , but he's not in the strictly red for a reason. :applause:[/QUOTE]

We can agree to disagree on that one. :cheers:

Not surprised that it was dubeta who bumped it though. :lol

Kobe had greater career with the better prime but not close to peak Shaq.