Kevin Mchale vs Dirk Nowitzki All time

[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]And McHale is not a better rebounder as well. I mean if you are going to play the card of :McHale couldn't grab defensive boards because of Bird and Parrish grabbing them all.....

Then someone else can say: Dirk couldn't grab offensive boards because he wasn't camped out in the paint on offense. And he wasn't the 3rd option on offense so therefore he didn't have as many opportunities to grab offensive rebounds.[/QUOTE]
Uh, just watch them play. Dirk would never bang in the paint for offensive rebounds like McHale. Dirk can scoop up some meaningless uncontested defensive rebounds, while McHale was busy running up the court getting position in the post. Doesn't make Dirk a better rebounder, think he's averaging 10 boards on a frontline with Bird/Parish? Offensive rebounding is always a better measure of who the better rebounder is, and McHale nearly doubles Dirk's totals in some years. Not to mention McHale is a better rebounder over their careers per 36 minutes. If you think McHale was the "3rd option" in his prime (post '84) then I don't know what to tell you except that you're clueless - it was Bird, and then McHale and there really is no argument. There is also no correlation between less scoring and offensive rebounding for McHale, in fact his best offensive rebounding season came when he averaged a career high scoring average, and his second best year came when he was the #1 option offensively with Bird missing the year due to injury.

[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]How many gamewinners did McHale have in his career? I am guessing not that many at all. And for those that say: well he had to play with one of the clutchest players ever in Bird.

That is true. So how do you know that McHale is clutch then? And if it isn't gamewinners then what are you using to define your clutchness?[/QUOTE]


McHale made clutch defensive plays. He came through in the playoffs along with Bird. McHale easily would have won Finals MVP in '85 and '87 if the Celtics had won. He's also had good statlines in important games.


Game 6 against Cleveland in '92- 22 pts/6 reb and 9/12 from the field in 23 minutes off the bench

Game 7 against Cleveland in '92- 15 pts/5 reb and 6/14 from the field in 30 minutes off the bench

Game 3 against Charlotte in '93- 19 pts/6 reb/3 blk on 8/14 from the field in 30 minutes off the bench


He didn't choke under pressure.

[quote]Uh, just watch them play.[/quote]

I have watched them play.

[quote] Dirk would never bang in the paint for offensive rebounds like McHale.[/quote]

That's right. Because Dirk has responsibilitiies on the offensive end that McHale never had. Number 1 priority was to score. So therefore Dirk couldn't just hand in the paint while he watches the other number 1 option take on the defense and shoot. Then go for the rebound.

[quote]Dirk can scoop up some meaningless uncontested defensive rebounds, while McHale was busy running up the court getting position in the post. [/quote]

You are right. While McHale was trying to get position. Dirk was trying to score for his team.

[quote]Doesn't make Dirk a better rebounder, think he's averaging 10 boards on a frontline with Bird/Parish?[/quote]

But that is negated because there were more rebounds to be had. It is called PACE.

[quote]Offensive rebounding is always a better measure of who the better rebounder is, and McHale nearly doubles Dirk's totals in some years. [/quote]

Well, considering that Dirk played on a different spot on the floor than McHale and Dirk was the number 1 option for his team. It is not a coincidence that Dirk has lower offensive rebounding numbers. Let's face it, when you shoot from 15 feet out a bunch (and at times shoot a lot of 3 pointers,) your offensive rebounding won't be great.


[quote]Not to mention McHale is a better rebounder over their careers per 36 minutes.[/quote]

The difference is negligible.
McHale's rebounding per 36: 8.5
Dirk's rebounding per 36: 8.3

And that includes Dirk's rookie year in which he was a poor rebounder in the beginning. In fact, Don Nelson once said, "Dirk is the only guy he has ever seen make himself into a rebounder."

Let's take it a step further:
Rebounding percentage for their career:
McHale: 13.2%
Dirk: 13.1%

Pretty much negligible again.

But look at the playoffs:
McHale: 12.6%
Dirk: 14.7%

So while McHale has a slight edge in career... Dirk blows him away in the playoffs.

So like I was saying earlier... McHale wasn't "better" than Dirk at rebounding.
[quote]If you think McHale was the "3rd option" in his prime (post '84) then I don't know what to tell you except that you're clueless - it was Bird, and then McHale and there really is no argument.[/quote]

Well, then at best he was still the second option. And even after Bird left, he was never the number 1 guy. He was always behind someone... including Reggie Lewis.

[quote] There is also no correlation between less scoring and offensive rebounding for McHale, in fact his best offensive rebounding season came when he averaged a career high scoring average, and his second best year came when he was the #1 option offensively with Bird missing the year due to injury.[/quote]

But there is a correlation between offensive rebounding and position on the floor.

Dirk

[quote]McHale made clutch defensive plays. He came through in the playoffs along with Bird. McHale easily would have won Finals MVP in '85 and '87 if the Celtics had won. He's also had good statlines in important games.


Game 6 against Cleveland in '92- 22 pts/6 reb and 9/12 from the field in 23 minutes off the bench

Game 7 against Cleveland in '92- 15 pts/5 reb and 6/14 from the field in 30 minutes off the bench

Game 3 against Charlotte in '93- 19 pts/6 reb/3 blk on 8/14 from the field in 30 minutes off the bench


He didn't choke under pressure.[/quote]

So you are going to use 3 playoff games for his career?

You do realize that Dirk hasn't lost a Game 7 in his career, and has averaged 30/10 in those Game 7s? And to top it off he has 6 or 7 game winners in the last 5 years. The only player who has more in that time frame has been Kobe.

Not sure how anyone can say McHale was more "clutch." Dirk's clutchness gets blasted because of the one free throw miss in the Finals (which did not cost them the series btw). But in relation to McHale. He has a lot better resume in that department.

McHale in clutchness is like the guy who bats .300 for one season while Dirk is like the guy who bats .300 for most of his career.

[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]How many gamewinners did McHale have in his career? I am guessing not that many at all. And for those that say: well he had to play with one of the clutchest players ever in Bird.

That is true. So how do you know that McHale is clutch then? And if it isn't gamewinners then what are you using to define your clutchness?[/QUOTE]
Clutchness is playing great in tight and pressure situations, which McHale did much better than Nowitzki.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Dirk, McHale was great and at his best, a better scorer, but Dirk's longevity is superior and he's been a franchise player, MVP and consistent MVP candidate for years now. He really changed the power forward position.[/QUOTE]
He damn sure wouldn't have been an MVP candidate on the Celtics or even back in the 80s at all.

[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]So you are going to use 3 playoff games for his career?

You do realize that Dirk hasn't lost a Game 7 in his career, and has averaged 30/10 in those Game 7s? And to top it off he has 6 or 7 game winners in the last 5 years. The only player who has more in that time frame has been Kobe.

Not sure how anyone can say McHale was more "clutch." Dirk's clutchness gets blasted because of the one free throw miss in the Finals (which did not cost them the series btw). But in relation to McHale. He has a lot better resume in that department.

McHale in clutchness is like the guy who bats .300 for one season while Dirk is like the guy who bats .300 for most of his career.[/QUOTE]

So Just because he hasn't lose a game 7 we're gonna ignore things like the Golden state year and the Heat year? :oldlol:

[quote]Clutchness is playing great in tight and pressure situations, which McHale did much better than Nowitzki.[/quote]

Not if you go by stats or by gamewinners.

[quote]So Just because he hasn't lose a game 7 we're gonna ignore things like the Golden state year and the Heat year? [/quote]

And also all the game winners as well?

Dirk would feast in the 80s. Perimeter defense was terrible with guys sagging off like 3-4 feet off their man. Dirk would rain treys all day. Shots werent heavily contested either. All teams wanted to do was RUN N GUN. Dudes like English,Gervin, King and Dantley were droppin 30 ppg on 50+ shooting. Defense in the paint was better and games were phyiscal. Thats not Dirks game, tho. Dirk > McFail. Dirk is one of 5 guys in history to average 25/10 in the playoffs.

[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]Not if you go by stats or by gamewinners.



And also all the game winners as well?[/QUOTE]
Game winners is just a fraction of clutchness, and stats don't describe Kevin McHale.

[QUOTE=KobeDaMamba]Dirk would feast in the 80s. Perimeter defense was terrible with guys sagging off like 3-4 feet off their man. Dirk would rain treys all day. Shots werent heavily contested either. All teams wanted to do was RUN N GUN. Dudes like English,Gervin, King and Dantley were droppin 30 ppg on 50+ shooting. Defense in the paint was better and games were phyiscal. Thats not Dirks game, tho. Dirk > McFail. Dirk is one of 5 guys in history to average 25/10 in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
:banghead: :hammerhead: :banghead: :hammerhead:

[quote]Game winners is just a fraction of clutchness, and stats don't describe Kevin McHale.[/quote]

So stats describe Nowitzki?

If Dirk was all about stats, he would've padded his stats a long time ago. He is one of the very few superstars today that could care less about stats. And does quite a few things to not accumlate stats in the long run.

[QUOTE=MasterDurant24]:banghead: :hammerhead: :banghead: :hammerhead:[/QUOTE]

STFU clown. You're probably one of those retards picking the old school player just to earn a old school rep.

This is a no brainer.

Give me the German.

McHale is one of the greatest PFs of all time but Dirk is a legend.

[QUOTE=Yung D-Will]So Just because he hasn't lose a game 7 we're gonna ignore things like the Golden state year and the Heat year? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=KobeDaMamba]STFU clown. You're probably one of those retards picking the old school player just to earn a old school rep.[/QUOTE]
I damn sure don't want to be known as some old school cat. But Dirk kill in the 80s? Oh my lord...

[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]So stats describe Nowitzki?

If Dirk was all about stats, he would've padded his stats a long time ago. He is one of the very few superstars today that could care less about stats. And does quite a few things to not accumlate stats in the long run.[/QUOTE]
First, Kevin McHale was the Celtic's sixth man for 8 of his 13 seasons. McHale was also a superb defender, a trait that stats only partially describe. His duty was to always guard the opponent's best frontcourt scorer, and he did a hell of a job at that. Dirk is just an alright, if that, defender. He was also a tenacious rebounder, but he played with two of the leauge's best rebounders, Parish and Bird.

If I'm picking a player to build around, I'm going with Kev. To win a championship you must have: a very good low post player or Michael Jordan. McHale fits the bill. Dirk is more of a perimeter player. Don't worry. If I was to pick the more talented player, oh Dirk no doubt. He's much more versatile. But McHale was so good at what he did, that it edges him past Dirk in my mind. And here's another a question to leave you guys. If I'm a big man, who would I'd be more scared to guard? A ferocious low post scorer that commands double teams or a man who prefers to hang around the perimeter? Just think about it.

[quote]First, Kevin McHale was the Celtic's sixth man for 8 of his 13 seasons. McHale was also a superb defender, a trait that stats only partially describe. His duty was to always guard the opponent's best frontcourt scorer, and he did a hell of a job at that. Dirk is just an alright, if that, defender. He was also a tenacious rebounder, but he played with two of the leauge's best rebounders, Parish and Bird.

If I'm picking a player to build around, I'm going with Kev. To win a championship you must have: a very good low post player or Michael Jordan. McHale fits the bill. Dirk is more of a perimeter player. Don't worry. If I was to pick the more talented player, oh Dirk no doubt. He's much more versatile. But McHale was so good at what he did, that it edges him past Dirk in my mind. And here's another a question to leave you guys. If I'm a big man, who would I'd be more scared to guard? A ferocious low post scorer that commands double teams or a man who prefers to hang around the perimeter? Just think about it.[/quote]

So you agree that Dirk is the better player, but you would rather choose Kevin McHale to build around because he is easier to build around.

That is the funny thing about ISH sometimes:

A poster asks who is better? 99% of the posters say: Player X but they would rather have Player Y... so they choose Player Y.

[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]So you agree that Dirk is the better player, but you would rather choose Kevin McHale to build around because he is easier to build around.

That is the funny thing about ISH sometimes:

A poster asks who is better? 99% of the posters say: Player X but they would rather have PlayerY... so they choose Player Y.[/QUOTE]
More talented does not mean better...

[quote]More talented does not mean better...[/quote]

Then what makes Dirk so much more talented than McHale? You say he was......

[QUOTE=Locked_Up_Tonight]Then what makes Dirk so much more talented than McHale? You say he was......[/QUOTE]
He has more of a variety of skills. However McHale is so great at what he does, that it overpowers Nowitziki's balanced skills.

[QUOTE=White Chocolate]Dirk has the longevity, but McHale shits on him defensively. McHale was also the more [B]clutch[/B] of the two. My vote is for Big Kev.[/QUOTE]


SAY WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Dirk Nowitzki: 24 votes
Kevin Mchale: 18 votes

[QUOTE=MasterDurant24]He damn sure wouldn't have been an MVP candidate on the Celtics or even back in the 80s at all.[/QUOTE]

How do you know he wouldn't have been an MVP candidate in the 80's? If he was posting similar numbers on 55-60 win teams, which isn't a stretch considering he's done it consistently now, then he would have atleast been a candidate. No way is he winning any, but he would have been a candidate had he done what he did in his own era. Hell, Terry Cummings was top 5 in MVP voting in 1985 and he wasn't as good as Dirk. Sidney Moncrief was 4th in 1983 as well. Robert Parish was nowhere near the player Dirk(or McHale for that matter) are/were and he was 4th in 1982 despite playing with Larry Bird. That same year, Gus Williams was 5th.

It would have been interesting to see what McHale could have done as the franchise player. He definitely had the skills.

[quote]He has more of a variety of skills. However McHale is so great at what he does, that it overpowers Nowitziki's balanced skills.[/quote]

And I thought the exacrt opposite. Dirk's scoring/number 1 option is so much more overpowering than McHale's all around skill.

Dirk would not have been an MVP during the 80's. Would he really win it ever over Jordan, Bird, Moses, Magic, kareem even during some of their worst seasons during the 80's? Dirk won because there wasn't a perfect option there. Nobody wanted to give it too Nash a third time, or Duncan past his prime even though he was better, or Kobe because his team only won 40 some ive games.

[QUOTE=magnax1]Dirk would not have been an MVP during the 80's. Would he really win it ever over Jordan, Bird, Moses, Magic, kareem even during some of their worst seasons during the 80's? Dirk won because there wasn't a perfect option there. Nobody wanted to give it too Nash a third time, or Duncan past his prime even though he was better, or Kobe because his team only won 40 some ive games.[/QUOTE]

Never said he'd win, but if he produced the same, then he'd be a candidate.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Never said he'd win, but if he produced the same, then he'd be a candidate.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. If.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Never said he'd win, but if he produced the same, then he'd be a candidate.[/QUOTE]
I always thought candidate=had a chance to win it

Kev more clutch than Dirk? :roll: He barely had to carry a burden as heavy as Dirk had to throughout his career.

Dirk was MVP. 1 more for German one.

[QUOTE=CeltsGarlic]Dirk was MVP. 1 more for German one.[/QUOTE]
He didn't have Jordan, Magic, Isiah, Bird, and Akeem to compete against. But MVP is MVP I guess...

No, but the likes of Shaq, Timmy D. and Kobe, arguably three of the top 10 players of all time. And I didn't know that McHale had to compete against Bird. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=creepingdeath]No, but the likes of Shaq, Timmy D. and Kobe, arguably three of the top 10 players of all time. And I didn't know that McHale had to compete against Bird. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

I think he meant he had to compete with Bird for an MVP

Which isn't true either. The best what he could do was in 1986-87, but he was never a serious competitor against Bird.

[QUOTE=White Chocolate]McHale made clutch defensive plays. He came through in the playoffs along with Bird. McHale easily would have won Finals MVP in '85 and '87 if the Celtics had won. He's also had good statlines in important games.


Game 6 against Cleveland in '92- 22 pts/6 reb and 9/12 from the field in 23 minutes off the bench

[B]Game 7 against Cleveland in '92- 15 pts/5 reb and 6/14 from the field in 30 minutes off the bench[/B]

Game 3 against Charlotte in '93- 19 pts/6 reb/3 blk on 8/14 from the field in 30 minutes off the bench


He didn't choke under pressure.[/QUOTE]

Did you just bring up a 15/5 game (a LOSS actually) to say McHale is more clutch than Dirk. That would have been by far the worst career game 7 for Dirk.

WOW
[QUOTE=MasterDurant24]And here's another a question to leave you guys. If I'm a big man, who would I'd be more scared to guard? A ferocious low post scorer that commands double teams or a man who prefers to hang around the perimeter? Just think about it.[/QUOTE]

OK, let's illustrate it. Say you are Tim Duncan. Who would you rather go up against. Shaquille Oneal (10x the player McHale ever was), or Dirk. Now I'm taking this example, because we have actually seen these matchups (at least I have), and it was obviuos that Duncan was struggling more against Dirk. In fact most of the times, Bowen was the one defending Dirk, because Timmy (one of the greatest defenders of all time) was no match for Dirk. Just ran a quick scan, and here's what they average:

Dirk has faced the Spurs 5 times in the playoffs:
24.5ppg/10rpg/49%FG/93%FT record 2:2 (got injured in 03)

Shaq has faced the Spurs 5 times in the playoffs:
22.4ppg/12.8rpg/53%FG/53%FT record 2:4

And once again, this is Shaq (McHale x10). I know Duncan is a great post defender, so this particular matchup doesn't work in Shaqs favor, but it's what you asked for, and goes on to show that Dirk is a matchup nightmare.

You can try and make points about all around play, defense, blah blah blah, whatever, but as a defender you fear Dirk more. period.

[QUOTE=Flamboyant]Did you just bring up a 15/5 game (a LOSS actually) to say McHale is more clutch than Dirk. That would have been by far the worst career game 7 for Dirk.

WOW


OK, let's illustrate it. Say you are Tim Duncan. Who would you rather go up against. Shaquille Oneal (10x the player McHale ever was), or Dirk. Now I'm taking this example, because we have actually seen these matchups (at least I have), and it was obviuos that Duncan was struggling more against Dirk. In fact most of the times, Bowen was the one defending Dirk, because Timmy (one of the greatest defenders of all time) was no match for Dirk. Just ran a quick scan, and here's what they average:

Dirk has faced the Spurs 5 times in the playoffs:
24.5ppg/10rpg/49%FG/93%FT record 2:2 (got injured in 03)

Shaq has faced the Spurs 5 times in the playoffs:
22.4ppg/12.8rpg/53%FG/53%FT record 2:4

And once again, this is Shaq (McHale x10). I know Duncan is a great post defender, so this particular matchup doesn't work in Shaqs favor, but it's what you asked for, and goes on to show that Dirk is a matchup nightmare.

You can try and make points about all around play, defense, blah blah blah, whatever, but as a defender you fear Dirk more. period.[/QUOTE]
Those really aren't much better stats though, except for the fact that Dirk can actually make free throws. Yeah, big, slow guys who actually can defend in the post might want to take more of a chance guarding Shaq instead of a perimeter player like Dirk. But they aren't the ones who should be guarding Dirk anyway.

[quote]Yeah, big, slow guys who actually can defend in the post might want to take more of a chance guarding Shaq instead of a perimeter player like Dirk. But they aren't the ones who should be guarding Dirk anyway.[/quote]

Hence the reason why most PFs fear Dirk more. Because he takes them out of their comfort zone. So much so, that they have to put another player on him just to guard.