Question for non-religious types...(most of us I think)

[QUOTE=miller-time]i'm not sure if i follow? how can you fear gods power if you don't already believe in it? you can't fear gods power first and then believe because you've already accepted that god exists and has power in the first instance. but maybe i am just misunderstanding you?[/QUOTE]
I think he is just saying it is healthy to be a "god-fearing" person...

and he is right...it is very healthy to fear God...

fear of God has saved countless lives...for alot of people it might be the only thing that keeps them from killing themselves...because life is a gift in the eye's of God in every religion, to deny that gift is a "no-no"...

Fear of God also has gotten countless of people off drugs and alcohol...

real or not, God saves lives...(yes I know "God" has also taken lives, but I believe "he" has saved many more lives than taken)

[QUOTE=ShannonElements]I don't fear God(assuming there is a God). Does this make me unhealthy?[/QUOTE]
no...

BUT, you would "LIKELY" have a better mind set if you did fear God...

likely less depressed...or happier if you are not depressed...(on average)

people who fear God (in general) are usually more content in life, more humble...ect...when times get tuff they have God to fall back on, and real or not he is there for them and does help...

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]I think he is just saying it is healthy to be a "god-fearing" person...

and he is right...it is very healthy to fear God...

fear of God has saved countless lives...for alot of people it might be the only thing that keeps them from killing themselves...because life is a gift in the eye's of God in every religion, to deny that gift is a "no-no"...

Fear of God also has gotten countless of people off drugs and alcohol...

real or not, God saves lives...(yes I know "God" has also taken lives, but I believe "he" has saved many more lives than taken)[/QUOTE]

I think it would be healthier if people changed their lives for the better for the better reasons (benefit their own health/sanity, their family's well-being, etc.)

[QUOTE=Jailblazers7]I think it would be healthier if people changed their lives for the better for the better reasons (benefit their own health/sanity, their family's well-being, etc.)[/QUOTE]
some do...but alot for alot of people it takes "God" to get them to go the extra step...

It has also been shown that athiests are much more likely to committ suicide than the religious...and part of that is the fear of God keeping them going...

fearing God is healthy in general...I have talked about this before many times but it is healthy to the point that alot of mental doctors use it on their patients..."God" is the entire foundation of "AA"...if you ever go to a drug rehab you will also see the doctors there talking alot about God...

I am not saying you can't be mentally healthy and athiest btw...there are plenty of athiests that happy, healthy, ect...

just talking "in genral"

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]some do...but alot for alot of people it takes "God" to get them to go the extra step...

It has also been shown that athiests are much more likely to committ suicide than the religious...and part of that is the fear of God keeping them going...

fearing God is healthy in general...I have talked about this before many times but it is healthy to the point that alot of mental doctors use it on their patients..."God" is the entire foundation of "AA"...if you ever go to a drug rehab you will also see the doctors there talking alot about God...

I am not saying you can't be mentally healthy and athiest btw...there are plenty of athiests that happy, healthy, ect...

just talking "in genral"[/QUOTE]

I actually got out of a series of alcohol related classes (serving a sentence for underage drinking) and have seen my brother go through AA and I know what you mean by God being a centerpiece in recovery.

It just kind of confuses me how the idea of something (not a real person or loved one) is what gets people to take that extra step.

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]I think he is just saying it is healthy to be a "god-fearing" person...

and he is right...it is very healthy to fear God...

fear of God has saved countless lives...for alot of people it might be the only thing that keeps them from killing themselves...because life is a gift in the eye's of God in every religion, to deny that gift is a "no-no"...

Fear of God also has gotten countless of people off drugs and alcohol...

real or not, God saves lives...(yes I know "God" has also taken lives, but I believe "he" has saved many more lives than taken)[/QUOTE]

it is better to fix the problem at the source then to slap on a god bandaid.

[QUOTE=miller-time]it is better to fix the problem at the source then to slap on a god bandaid.[/QUOTE]
but that is fixing it at the source (depending what yo uare talking about)

bandaid = lots of pills

fixing it "the real way" = exercise/healthy diet/spirituality

if we are just talking about depression and other mental issues that that are similiar...

"god" isn't a bandaid...he really can heal...prevent suicide, ect...save lives

[IMG]http://www.mybesthealthportal.net/images/stories/RX_Drugs/antidepressants.jpg[/IMG]


^^^ THAT is the bandaid...not "God"

[QUOTE=-playmaker-][IMG]http://www.mybesthealthportal.net/images/stories/RX_Drugs/antidepressants.jpg[/IMG]


^^^ THAT is the bandaid...not "God"[/QUOTE]



[QUOTE]if we are just talking about depression and other mental issues that that are similiar...

"god" isn't a bandaid...he really can heal...prevent suicide, ect...save lives[/QUOTE]





You are kidding with this shit right? Pills are only a bandaid for depression and mental issues whereas "God" can heal them? Where was "God" healing these issues a hundred years ago before the medical profession started to come to grips with the realities of mental health? Where was he when people with mental disorders were ostracized, beat up, and thrown out of their communities? Those medications in many situations have given people the means to live productive and healthy lives, and in many of those same cases, they grew up in a church setting where the "Christian Psychologist" painted the child's behavior as something that could be fixed by a mere change in the disciplinary structure of the household.

In many ways churches have been a hindrance in people finding ways to seek help with their mental problems.

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]but that is fixing it at the source (depending what yo uare talking about)

bandaid = lots of pills

fixing it "the real way" = exercise/healthy diet/spirituality

if we are just talking about depression and other mental issues that that are similiar...

"god" isn't a bandaid...he really can heal...prevent suicide, ect...save lives[/QUOTE]

its not fixing the problem, it is providing a false reality that the individual can escape into.

lots of pills means nothing, it depends what type of depression you have. feeling depressed is not the same as having depression. there are many different types of the disorder and obviously introducing people to god is not going to be effective for all of them. most people with (unipolar) depression are treated with cognitive behavioural therapy before they are introduced to drug treatments. In any mental health case drug treatment is usually the last resort (except for ECT and surgury obviously).

but we've had this discussion before. and my point last time was that during war sucide rates decrease. if a country got together and said lets go to war to combat suicide you wouldn't say that is fixing the problem would you? it does increase self worth and solidarity, the same things god increases, so what is the difference? by your logic they are both fixers of the problem.

obviously war is an extreme example and i don't mean to say they are equal concepts in combatting suicide and depression. but they both work on the same problems. are they fixes for the problem or bandaids?

which religion then? protestants have higher suicide rates than catholics so it might be safer to introduce them to catholicism because obviously it is better at fixing the problem. or is it bandaiding the problem, because you know... god isn't actually a real part of any of this it is just that false perception of reality i mentioned earlier. edit - if god were a real solution then shouldn't all believers have statistically the same rates of suicide? they don't so the problem is obviously psychosocial, and the psychosocial cause is what needs to be fixed not painted over with a belief in god.

I am going to try and answer you both with one short post. First off I am not against meds or "bandaids" aas long as patients and doctors are not abusing them.

"IF" God is a "baidaid" (I don't think it is at all since it has cured many for good) then I don't see the problem with using a "god band-aid" either...it certainly isn't hurting anyone like pills would...what's the issue???...they believe in something that YOU think is flase???...WHO CARES!!!

and yes, "thiests" have an much lower suicide rate than "athiests"...so it is healthy in that realm of "mood/depression/ect"...

[QUOTE]ABSTRACT:

OBJECTIVE: Few studies have investigated the association between religion and suicide either in terms of Durkheim's social integration hypothesis or the hypothesis of the regulative benefits of religion. The relationship between religion and suicide attempts has received even less attention.
METHOD: Depressed inpatients (N=371) who reported belonging to one specific religion or described themselves as having no religious affiliation were compared in terms of their demographic and clinical characteristics.

RESULTS: [COLOR="Red"]Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide. In terms of clinical characteristics, religiously unaffiliated subjects had more lifetime impulsivity, aggression, and past substance use disorder.[/COLOR] No differences in the level of subjective and objective depression, hopelessness, or stressful life events were found. [/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html[/url]

^^^ READ UP

[QUOTE]its not fixing the problem, it is providing a false reality that the individual can escape into. [/QUOTE]

^^^ that IS fixing the problem...:hammerhead:

wether or not it is false [B]DOES NOT MATTER[/B]...(also can not be proven)

[B]"DEPRESSION" in general is a false sense of reality[/B]...as most people who are depressed really don't have a decent reason to be and are 100x better off than the common "happy" person living in Africa...or Mexico...ect...

if it can be cured with spirituality, that is NOT A BANDAID...

go ask a damn pyschiatrist...spirituality DOES HEAL MENTAL ILLNESS...(not all of them, but the ones that can be beaten such as clinical depression)


[QUOTE]Abstract
While mental health professionals frequently express concerns about the function of spirituality and religion in the lives of people diagnosed with severe mental disorders, [COLOR="Red"]there are both clinical and research bases for the increased acceptance of spirituality's potentially positive role in psychiatric rehabilitation and recovery. [/COLOR]This paper first addresses issues of religious experience in diagnosis, including the importance of religiocultural context and overall functioning in diagnostic assessments. It then examines the roles of spirituality in recovery, exploring both positive and negative relationships between religion and consumers' well-being. Finally, it describes several specific ways in which spiritual and religious concerns may be integrated into psychosocial rehabilitation services: conducting spiritual assessments; offering spiritually-informed discussion groups; incorporating spiritual dimensions of psychotherapy; and facilitating linkages to faith communities and spiritual resources. [/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a713673802[/url]


^^^ check that out...a guide for DOCTORS TO USE SPIRTUALITY RATHER THAN PILLS!!!!



ehh...not such a short post

[QUOTE=Blackisbig]You are kidding with this shit right? Pills are only a bandaid for depression and mental issues whereas "God" can heal them? [COLOR="Red"]Where was "God" healing these issues a hundred years ago before the medical profession started to come to grips with the realities of mental health? Where was he when people with mental disorders were ostracized, beat up, and thrown out of their communities?[/COLOR] Those medications in many situations have given people the means to live productive and healthy lives, and in many of those same cases, they grew up in a church setting where the "Christian Psychologist" painted the child's behavior as something that could be fixed by a mere change in the disciplinary structure of the household.

In many ways churches have been a hindrance in people finding ways to seek help with their mental problems.[/QUOTE]
he was there for many of them...real or not

instead of slitting there wrists or downing jars of asprin they were scared of going to hell, or asking for God's help...and then they grew up!!!

"GOD" has helped many people get through "SHIT"...for centuries...

and it isn't a bandaid either...it is perfectly healthy way for humans to overcome things...

[QUOTE]lots of pills means nothing, it depends what type of depression you have. feeling depressed is not the same as having depression. there are many different types of the disorder and obviously introducing people to god is not going to be effective for all of them. [COLOR="Red"]most people with (unipolar) depression are treated with cognitive behavioural therapy before they are introduced to drug treatments. [/COLOR][COLOR="Red"]In any mental health case drug treatment is usually the last resort[/COLOR] (except for ECT and surgury obviously).[/QUOTE]

that isn't true where I live...and I doubt it is true in the rest of the US also...

doctors throw out pills right away...they don't give a shit...

pills FIRST...then group theorpy and all that shit that actualy requires effort...cause people are lazy and want the "quick fix" and doctors and others just want money...

I know countless people I grew up with that are on some kind of med and never bothered to seek therapy...

hell, the whole damn country is on meds...

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]pills FIRST...then group theorpy and all that shit that actualy requires effort...cause people are lazy and want the "quick fix" and doctors and others just want money...[/QUOTE]

well i'm studying to become a psychologist and we can't prescribe meds, patients that suffer from psychosis or severe depression (where they need to be monitored) are defered to psychiatrists and in those cases they absolutely NEED meds, but our patients won't recieve meds of any sort (from us).

the medical model is f[COLOR="Black"]u[/COLOR]cked i agree, treat the symptoms and not the problem. but you've got to stop generalizing everything. not every psychiatrist is out for a cheap buck. alot of them do care, and alot of them do help.

[quote]it certainly isn't hurting anyone like pills would...what's the issue???...they believe in something that YOU think is flase???...WHO CARES!!! [/quote]
because like i said it is not fixing the problem, in the exact same way you dislike meds i dislike using god as a treatment for mental health problems. it is a distraction, you aren't getting the person to understand or manage the underlying root causes for their problems . CBT and other psychological treatments like interpersonal therapy and even psychoanalysis are statistically proven treatments for known disorders. i'm not pushing drugs unless the person is at risk of harming themselves or others.
[quote]and yes, "thiests" have an much lower suicide rate than "athiests"...so it is healthy in that realm of "mood/depression/ect"...[/quote]
yes and some theists have much lower suicide rates than other theists, is the best theistic treatment the church with the lowest suicide rate?
[quote][B]"DEPRESSION" in general is a false sense of reality[/B]...as most people who are depressed really don't have a decent reason to be and are 100x better off than the common "happy" person living in Africa...or Mexico...ect...

if it can be cured with spirituality, that is NOT A BANDAID...[/quote]
...and they probably have to continue persisting in their new found faith. what happens if they suddenly lose their spiritual beliefs and they fall back into the disorder they came from? the very definition of bandaid. if they manage to move through life after dropping their spiritual ideas and not fall back then i will concede that point. it seems fairly difficult to test that hypothesis though.
[quote]go ask a damn pyschiatrist...spirituality DOES HEAL MENTAL ILLNESS...(not all of them, but the ones that can be beaten such as clinical depression)[/quote]
why would you offer them that if spirituality is quite possibly false to begin when we already have tried and tested methods to heal them? your position is if it heals them then who cares if it is real, mine is if you can use a neutral method to heal someone wouldn't that be the ultimate goal?
[quote]^^^ check that out...a guide for DOCTORS TO USE SPIRTUALITY RATHER THAN PILLS!!!![/quote]
what that abstract for a journal article i have to pay 69 euros to read?

[QUOTE=ShannonElements]I don't fear God(assuming there is a God). Does this make me unhealthy?[/QUOTE]

Assuming there is a God, not fearing God is unhealthy for your soul.

[QUOTE=Legend of Josh]Assuming there is a God, not fearing God is unhealthy for your soul.[/QUOTE]


yeh especially considering how bad they make hell out to be...

but i'm willing to take my chances instead of believing in one fable out of so many out there. plus its difficult for some people to really believe in this type of stuff way more than others it seems, even if we really tried hard to believe.

[QUOTE=ShannonElements]Why?[/QUOTE]

God finds favor in those who seek to understand, value and appreciate his greatness. If we truly understand and appreciate God's greatness (speaking in terms of [I]the[/I] omnipotent, more specific Christian God), then naturally, there should be a healthy dose of fear associated as well.

Fearing God does not automatically assume we think his intentions are evil or unjust (hell for example, which opens up a whole new can of worms bc of the common misconception that God's will for us who do not follow or obey is 'evil' - different topic!); fearing God because of his power and unparalleled magnitude can also be bucketed into fear.

This type of 'God fearing' is healthy for one's spirituality. I know for me personally, it took a lot of ego-bending to break the barriers that separated me from God. It's a huge turn-off for most people, but in order to get close to God, you must first humble yourself and acknowledge God > you. A healthy fear of God can help you get from point A to B.

Pslam 111:10 - [I]The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.[/I]

[QUOTE=Poodle]i'm willing to take my chances instead of believing...[/QUOTE]

In today's world, we idolize (practially worship) worldly things; with each passing day this becomes more and more evident. It's everywhere. It's instilled within us. It's becoming us. It is us.

Romans 1:25 - [I]They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator...[/I]

Remember [I]who's[/I] world you're living in:

2 Corinthians 4:4 - [I]The god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[/I]

wait. I thought prime claimed to not be religious, but now hes talking about god healing depression? WTF, you that almost all religious moments (catharsis, etc) can be explained through brain chemistry? Its the same as a placebo effect.



also, josh, what if shannon believes in gods (which he doesnt fear) that arent your typical judeo-Xtian fearmongering bullshit god? Can you tell him why not fearing a god he believes in is unhealthy without resorting to the bible?

[QUOTE=Legend of Josh]In today's world, we idolize (practially worship) worldly things; with each passing day this becomes more and more evident. It's everywhere. It's instilled within us. It's becoming us. It is us.

Romans 1:25 - [I]They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator...[/I]

Remember [I]who's[/I] world you're living in:

2 Corinthians 4:4 - [I]The god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[/I][/QUOTE]


you're going to have to bring a LOT more than that to convert me. i don't even get how any of that works on anybody tbh :confusedshrug:

it'd probably take me seeing God/Jesus physically, or seeing some miracle firsthand, to truly believe. bible verses/quotes are :blah :blah :blah to me. i don't get why you guys use that. does it ever work?

[QUOTE=miller-time][COLOR="Red"]well i'm studying to become a psychologist [/COLOR]and we can't prescribe meds, patients that suffer from psychosis or severe depression (where they need to be monitored) are defered to psychiatrists and in those cases they absolutely NEED meds, but our patients won't recieve meds of any sort (from us).

the medical model is f[COLOR="Black"]u[/COLOR]cked i agree, treat the symptoms and not the problem. but you've got to stop generalizing everything. not every psychiatrist is out for a cheap buck. alot of them do care, and alot of them do help.[/QUOTE]
how in the f*ck can you NOT know what I am saying to be true then?

:wtf:

to "CURE" (as in gone for good) mental depression without meds...

1. Exercise
2. Healthy Diet
3. HAVE A HEALTHY SPIRITUAL WELL-BEING (religious or not)


that shit should be common knowledge for you...what are you learning about instead?...prozac and shit?...:facepalm

dude, go to any rehab clinic (for depression or drugs) and look at what the doctors (psychologist) are teaching them...they are teaching them that exercise and diet is the #1 thing but after that you have to "FIND GOD"....and that could be anything...

I am talking about the basic fundamentals of curing depression...

you would be SHOCKED at what exercise/diet/spirtuality can heal...it can heal shit considered uncureable like schizophrenia, and bipolar disorder...that shit goes a very long way in terms of Mental Health


I am actually pissed off right now that I am talking to someone that is studying to become a psychologist and has f*cking rejected a healthy spirtual well being as a form of treatment...

not only have you rejected it...but somehow you have found a way to say it is unhealthy...:banghead:

f*ck our schools...seriously

[QUOTE=miller-time]because like i said it is not fixing the problem, in the exact same way you dislike meds i dislike using god as a treatment for mental health problems. it is a distraction, you aren't getting the person to understand or manage the underlying root causes for their problems . CBT and other psychological treatments like interpersonal therapy and even psychoanalysis are statistically proven treatments for known disorders. i'm not pushing drugs unless the person is at risk of harming themselves or others.

yes and some theists have much lower suicide rates than other theists, is the best theistic treatment the church with the lowest suicide rate?

...and they probably have to continue persisting in their new found faith. what happens if they suddenly lose their spiritual beliefs and they fall back into the disorder they came from? the very definition of bandaid. if they manage to move through life after dropping their spiritual ideas and not fall back then i will concede that point. it seems fairly difficult to test that hypothesis though.

[COLOR="Red"]why would you offer them that if spirituality is quite possibly false to begin when we already have tried and tested methods to heal them? your position is if it heals them then who cares if it is real, mine is if you can use a neutral method to heal someone wouldn't that be the ultimate goal?[/COLOR]

what that abstract for a journal article i have to pay 69 euros to read?[/QUOTE]
the ultimate goal is making them happy...

I mean, what are YOU as a doctor going to tell the Christian man who is seeking Christ for help and finding happiness...becoming less depressed without meds?

[I]"oh don't bother with the Bible, it is all BS, it won't help you at all...you are just tricking yourself into being happy and not really fixing anything because Jesus never really existed...let's talk about your mother now"[/I]

would that be your advice?

it should be...[I]"KEEP GOING TO CHURCH, APPARENTLY IT IS WORKING FOR YOU!!!...IF THAT IS WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY THEN MORE POWER TO YOU!!!"[/I]

[QUOTE=boozehound]also, josh, what if shannon believes in gods (which he doesnt fear) that arent your typical judeo-Xtian fearmongering bullshit god? Can you tell him why not fearing a god he believes in is unhealthy without resorting to the bible?[/QUOTE]

If ShannonElements believes in gods that are not the Christian God, then my opinion would be moot b/c I'm referring to fearing [I]that[/I] God as being healthy for the soul. If you fear 'other' gods and it humbles you into being a better less selfish person, great - that's healthy in a sense! ... but it's ultimately moot as well b/c you're following the wrong God(s).

Having said that, let's not go off make this into a 'fact VS opinion' discussion (in regards to my statement of 'following the wrong god). I was just giving you a response.

[QUOTE=Legend of Josh]If ShannonElements believes in gods that are not the Christian God, then my opinion would be moot b/c I'm referring to fearing [I]that[/I] God as being healthy for the soul. If you fear 'other' gods and it humbles you into being a better less selfish person, great - that's healthy in a sense! ...[B] but it's ultimately moot as well b/c you're following the wrong God(s).

Having said that, let's not go off make this into a 'fact VS opinion' discussion (in regards to my statement of 'following the wrong god).[/B] I was just giving you a response.[/QUOTE]

You just opened a can of worms :oldlol:

And really now, who are you to say your imaginary friend is the 'right one' and another is 'wrong'?

Doesn't have to be based on fact (because clearly, it's not), but your opinion would suffice.

[QUOTE=Poodle]you're going to have to bring a LOT more than that to convert me. i don't even get how any of that works on anybody tbh :confusedshrug:

it'd probably take me seeing God/Jesus physically, or seeing some miracle firsthand, to truly believe. bible verses/quotes are :blah :blah :blah to me. i don't get why you guys use that. does it ever work?[/QUOTE]

I'm not trying to 'convert' you. Calm down.

:oldlol:

I was just trying to provide you some insight on your 'life choice' decision (choosing to not believe).

Bible versus, quotes, scriptures or whatever are used because that's God's direct line of communication with us; through his Word. The Bible is God's word. It's concrete, universal and forever relevant. It's a life-long guidebook to spiritual success. All you have to do is open the damn thing and read it! Read it with an open mind and an open heart. Learn its teachings, then apply them into your daily life. If you do this openly, honestly and wholeheartedly, you will [I]not[/I] be sorry. It will teach you how to truly appreciate life and everything within it.

I know, all this sounds coo-coo and as you put it :blah :blah :blah

As far back as I can remember I was in that mindset too ... but I'm telling you ... if you truly give yourself to God, believe in him, trust him and sacrifice what this world has to offer for him (which is not easy; in fact, it's superbly hard), you will not be sorry you did. It will not be for nothing.

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]that shit should be common knowledge for you...what are you learning about instead?...prozac and shit?...:facepalm [/QUOTE]

do i need to say it again?

[SIZE="7"]COGNITIVE[/SIZE]

[SIZE="7"]BEHAVIOURAL[/SIZE]

[SIZE="7"]THERAPY[/SIZE]

and yes i agree healthy diet and exercise play important roles in recovery.

i'm not against spirituality. i'm against making that the front runner and the most important part of helping someone take control of their lives. and the way i'm talking on here is not how i would deal with patients. each patient has different requirements and so does each condition, CBT might be useless for some patients and they may need a different approach. you've got to stop generalizing, and saying "this" fixes almost everything.

also i have to leave my personal beliefs at the door, i'm not going to disencourage (is that word?) someones beliefs. but i'm not actually going to introduce them to some new ones either. i can't be a good psychologist if i'm not culturally sensitive, but this mantra you've got "spirituality cures all" is complete nonsense. it is effective but it is not the [B]most [/B]effective.

[quote]"oh don't bother with the Bible, it is all BS, it won't help you at all...you are just tricking yourself into being happy and not really fixing anything because Jesus never really existed...let's talk about your mother now"

would that be your advice?[/quote]

so no i'm not going to tell them its all BS. i'm just not going to give them a bible and tell them to read up if they don't have religious convictions.

[QUOTE=miller-time]do i need to say it again?

[SIZE="7"]COGNITIVE[/SIZE]

[SIZE="7"]BEHAVIOURAL[/SIZE]

[SIZE="7"]THERAPY[/SIZE]

and yes i agree healthy diet and exercise play important roles in recovery.

[COLOR="Red"]i'm not against spirituality.[/COLOR] i'm against making that the front runner and the most important part of helping someone take control of their lives. and the way i'm talking on here is not how i would deal with patients. each patient has different requirements and so does each condition, CBT might be useless for some patients and they may need a different approach. you've got to stop generalizing, and saying "this" fixes almost everything.

also i have to leave my personal beliefs at the door, i'm not going to disencourage (is that word?) someones beliefs. but i'm not actually going to introduce them to some new ones either. i can't be a good psychologist if i'm not culturally sensitive, but this mantra you've got "spirituality cures all" is complete nonsense. it is effective but it is not the [B]most [/B]effective.



so no i'm not going to tell them its all BS[COLOR="Red"]. i'm just not going to give them a bible and tell them to read up[/COLOR] if they don't have religious convictions.[/QUOTE]
you are putting alot of words in my mouth here...

1.COGNITIVE BEHAVIOURAL THERAPY...great?...I read it..it means nothing in this in this conversation as I never said it was good or bad...I never said spirituality is the the #1 answer to anything...

2. I never said you should "hand someone a Bible"...but doctors can AND DO tell people to try to have a healthy spiritual life...they don't push any religion, they just tell you to try and have a healthy spiritual mind set...because it "CAN" help...for some people it is everything...

3. you did make it seem like you are against a healthy spiritual life...you have been this whole thread...acting as though believing in an after life is some false bandaid that just masks the real problem, when the truth is that it can "CURE" the problem completely...(not saying it always does, just saying it can)...you came off as though it hurts more than it helps or something...


If you are really not against it, then we have nothing to argue about I guess...

[IMG]http://http-server.carleton.ca/~zcrook/08%20-%20RealJesus.jpeg[/IMG]

This n!gga mug shot make him look zooted and zonked. Thought they didn't have pharmaceuticals in the early parts of A.D???

[QUOTE=ROCSteady][IMG]http://http-server.carleton.ca/~zcrook/08%20-%20RealJesus.jpeg[/IMG]

This n!gga mug shot make him look zooted and zonked. Thought they didn't have pharmaceuticals in the early parts of A.D???[/QUOTE]

Stop It.

We all know blonde-haired, blue-eyed, pale-skinned Middle Eastern Jew Yeshua is the only way to salvation.

[IMG]http://www.sacredheartterrehaute.org/jesus-heart-43%5B1%5D.jpg[/IMG]

And when did this thread turn into a debate about the mental health industry? I thought this was about the historicity of Jesus.

I still don't have any evidence that was contemporaneous to Jesus that would indicate he existed. Also, no one even tried to tackle my point about the New Testament writers contradicting one another and historical record about when Jesus was born to a virgin.

I demand satisfaction! :rant

Hahaha I'd rather pray to my Jesus than yours Don. BTW, I feel like the mental health thing is EXTREMELY relevant to matters of spirituality becuase the old science vs. spirituality are usually contradictory arenas and doctors who claim to have all the answers a lot of times will not consider a person's spiritual struggles when one feels sick in la cabeza

I would [I]love[/I] to see the look on Southern Conservatives faces if Jesus does come back to Earth on Judgment Day looking like this:

[IMG]http://www.joblo.com/newsimages1/quiz-jackson.jpg[/IMG]

[B][SIZE="3"]"Time for you to repent muthafu[COLOR="Black"]c[/COLOR]kas[/SIZE]... I got this passage memorized, something my father wrote, you mighta heard of it- Ezekiel 25:17"[/B]

:roll:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]I still don't have any evidence that was contemporaneous to Jesus that would indicate he existed. Also, no one even tried to tackle my point about the New Testament writers contradicting one another and historical record about when Jesus was born to a virgin.

I demand satisfaction! :rant[/QUOTE]

Still no takers? :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Still no takers? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

It's a trick question. There is no evidence that Jesus existed.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]It's a trick question. T[B]here is no evidence that Jesus existed.[/B][/QUOTE]

[I]I[/I] know that, but there are people who disagree. I just want to know where they're coming from and to see how they try to reconcile the Good Book, the word of God telling 2 different stories about when his son/himself was born... stories that contradict historical record.

It's a simple request really. I can wait :D

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Still no takers? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
any takers on evidence that he DIDN'T exist?


in the OP I stated that there was no proof either way...just asked for guesses, opinions...

no one knows for sure one way or another...

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]any takers on evidence that he DIDN'T exist?


in the OP I stated that there was no proof either way...just asked for guesses, opinions...

no one knows for sure one way or another...[/QUOTE]

Is there any proof that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist?

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Is there any proof that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist?[/QUOTE]
well, yes...I am pretty sure through science we could prove that never existed...

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]well, yes...I am pretty sure through science we could prove that never existed...[/QUOTE]

Oh ye of little faith.

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]any takers on evidence that he DIDN'T exist?


in the OP I stated that there was no proof either way...just asked for guesses, opinions...

no one knows for sure one way or another...[/QUOTE]

Asking to prove Jesus DIDN'T exist is like asking to prove Santa Claus doesn't, it's a logical fallacy. But I think I did enough to establish reasonable doubt your honor. No archeological or historical evidence that is contemporaneous to when he was supposed to be born, lived, died, etc exists despite him being a God who walked on Earth (and water) and performed miracles that many people allegedly saw. In addition, there are contradictory stories about his birth (and life) within the New Testament, one of those accounts being in direct contradiction to historical records we have about censuses that were taken in the Roman Empire and its municipalities during the time in question.

So in summation- no physical evidence exists, no contemporary historical evidence exists and the historical references that were brought up are either non-contemporary or have many 'interpolations' (read forgeries), the accounts told by the people who originated his life story are contradictory and don't fit with historical evidence we have.

So again... evidence that he existed... please. Anything that would sway one from reasonable doubt (at least)... anything?