Peak Alonzo Mourning or Peak Dwight Howard

[QUOTE=nbacardDOTnet]Retired ZO is still emotional. :lol (in 2009)
[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Alonzo%20Mourning/VS/d052874a.gif[/img]




Dikembe's defense was great but not the same level as rest of all.
(I think you might not watch 90's C Players game.)


+1


+1

- ZO's opponent were Olajuwon, Ewing, D-Rob, SHAQ
and nice C Players like Mutombo, Rik Smits , Vlade Divac, Kevin Willis(C/F tho) etc. etc.

dh12 's opponent ? season-outed Yao and ?
(The weakest C Players era.)



- ZO 's front court partner were Larry Johnson(Hornets) and P.J. Brown(heat).

But ZO's stat was still great.

DH12 has no front court partner.(Actually Rashard Lewis is not PF.)



And ZO had never been struggled against poor opponent not like dh12.

[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20NBA%20Record/Dwight%20Howard/--2.jpg[/img]

This is not just once.

Because dh12 has been stopped by (only 2009-10 season)

1) Really OLD SHAQ
[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/Shaquille%20Oneal/5%20Cleveland%20Cavaliers/NBA09-10OrlandoMagicvsClevelandCava.jpg[/img]

2) non prime time Jermaine O'neal

3) OLD Ben Wallace

4) (partly) Samuel Dalembert

5) Kendrick Perkins

6) Andrew Bynum

7) Roy Hibbert

8) Charlotte Bobcats C Players

and if there were Yao, Yao could stop dh12.


Furthermore ZO didn't need to elbow not like dh12.

[COLOR="Blue"]I always think dh12 is one of dominant current player but he is not all time greatest level.[/COLOR]



This is ZO in his rookie season. dh12 couldn't play like this at the same age.
[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Alonzo%20Mourning/rookiealonzomourninghitsthebuzzerbe.gif[/img]




As NBA history, all the greatest C Players have been born to be the greatest C Players not imporoved.[/QUOTE]

1 bad game against those centers is not "being stopped" by them, he also regularly outperforms them and wins the overall head-to-head matchups against them for the season. Stop nit picking. I'll bring up the stats if you want, but this would only hurt your argument.

LOL @ being stopped by Ben Wallace, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Also, one buzzer beater does not a great player make. You act like that was some brilliant play, it was a shot at the top of the key. Even the most basic NBA player could have hit that.

Also, you're [I]still[/I] running around with that picture? Really? Let it go man, seriously.

Also, Zo had his fair share of hard hits and elbows as well, he's also had a bad series or two. I think [I]you[/I] didn't watch 90's era players.

I wont even comment on the "As NBA history, all the greatest C Players have been born to be the greatest C Players not imporoved.", that is easily the most ridiculous thing I have heard today (which includes a threat to a super groupie).

Alonzo Mourning was a bad muthaphucka. I can't say the same about Howard who has that "hey! nice to meet you" mentality. Zo would feast on today's competition. He was getting 20/10/3 on routine in a league that was ran by bigs and .... and that black SG that played for DA BULLS. That era was much more physical and intense than the league Howard plays in. When Howard can't get deep position down low, he can't score. It's why he struggles against Boston since they play great help defense (hence forcing turnovers) and Perkins denies deep position down low. He hasn't mastered anything either besides the dropstep. Can't hit jumphooks consistently. Dude has bricks for hands and makes bad decisions with the ball.

Zo had a much more aggressive, assertive mentality where he'd demand the ball and force his team to feed him down low. It's why he clashed with LJ and ended up getting traded. I can't think of anything Howard does better than Zo save for pick and roll defense (due to Howard's edge in athleticism) and rebounding and remember that Zo was rebounding next to LJ, Parish, PJ Brown, Gattison, Owens, Kurt Thomas etc. Howard plays with undersized, uncoventional fowards that can't rebound worth a lick. People are impressed with Howard's shot blocking but Zo's anticipation, timing and will to contest shots was much superior than his. Guy went for everything possible which did hurt his team on a few occasions (gambling isn't always the greatest) but it also set fear in the minds of guys who were looking to penetrate. On offense, Zo wasn't perfect and that's why he was a notch below than Dream, Shaq, Admiral and Pat but he was much superior than Howard. Dwight Howard in the 90s wouldn't be much better than Kevin Willis who was never considered an elite player.

The problem with today's younger fan, is they eat, sh*t, and breath "stats"...


STATS DO NOT MEAN D*CK.



Having seen all of Zo's career, and considering the big men Zo had to go up against....its EASY to say that Alonzo was a far superior center.



Ive watched Dwight struggle against MOST other centers with any amount of size. Now, Howard is still young, and has a lot of room for improvement, but as it stands now.....the fact that he does struggle so much against other centers with any amount of size is a telling fact to me.

[QUOTE=DatWasNashty]Alonzo Mourning was a bad muthaphucka. I can't say the same about Howard who has that "hey! nice to meet you" mentality. Zo would feast on today's competition. He was getting 20/10/3 on routine in a league that was ran by bigs and .... and that black SG that played for DA BULLS. That era was much more physical and intense than the league Howard plays in. When Howard can't get deep position down low, he can't score. It's why he struggles against Boston since they play great help defense (hence forcing turnovers) and Perkins denies deep position down low. He hasn't mastered anything either besides the dropstep. Can't hit jumphooks consistently. Dude has bricks for hands and makes bad decisions with the ball.

Zo had a much more aggressive, assertive mentality where he'd demand the ball and force his team to feed him down low. It's why he clashed with LJ and ended up getting traded. I can't think of anything Howard does better than Zo save for pick and roll defense (due to Howard's edge in athleticism) and rebounding and remember that Zo was rebounding next to LJ, Parish, PJ Brown, Gattison, Owens, Kurt Thomas etc. Howard plays with undersized, uncoventional fowards that can't rebound worth a lick. People are impressed with Howard's shot blocking but Zo's anticipation, timing and will to contest shots was much superior than his. Guy went for everything possible which did hurt his team on a few occasions (gambling isn't always the greatest) but it also set fear in the minds of guys who were looking to penetrate. On offense, Zo wasn't perfect and that's why he was a notch below than Dream, Shaq, Admiral and Pat but he was much superior than Howard. Dwight Howard in the 90s wouldn't be much better than Kevin Willis who was never considered an elite player.[/QUOTE]

Dwight has mastered that jump hook with both hands, it's obviously not 100% (no shot is), but he hits it more than he misses it.

If the NBA was allowed to be as physical as it was back then, Dwight would be able to play much more freely.

Zo had 4 20/10 seasons, Dwight has 2 already (although I'll definitely admit, Zo's competition was way harder).

Dwight does have a nice guy demeanor (sometimes, it seems like everyone is either calling him a nice guy or a dirty player, something not adding up?), but so does the rest of the NBA. That's just how times are nowadays.

Also, Dwight was averaging 12.3 before Rashard Lewis came in with the stretch 4 mentality.

[QUOTE=zORi]1 bad game against those centers is not "being stopped" by them, he also regularly outperforms them and wins the overall head-to-head matchups against them for the season. Stop nit picking. I'll bring up the stats if you want, but this would only hurt your argument.

LOL @ being stopped by Ben Wallace, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Also, one buzzer beater does not a great player make. You act like that was some brilliant play, it was a shot at the top of the key. Even the most basic NBA player could have hit that.

Also, you're [I]still[/I] running around with that picture? Really? Let it go man, seriously.

Also, Zo had his fair share of hard hits and elbows as well, he's also had a bad series or two. I think [I]you[/I] didn't watch 90's era players.

I wont even comment on the "As NBA history, all the greatest C Players have been born to be the greatest C Players not imporoved.", that is easily the most ridiculous thing I have heard today (which includes a threat to a super groupie).[/QUOTE]

LMAO It's not strange your comment.
You can't accept fact. Because you are a dh12 homer.



U don't know NBA history.

Do you think dh12 is the greatest level of Bill, Wilt, Kareem kinds ? :roll:

come on



I don't deny ZO and the others(90's C Players) had elbowed.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iO4l98K-1o[/url]

But they hadn't elbowed much like throuth entire series.

What do you think about this ?

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSgawbtKtzM[/url]



Yah One buzzer doesn't mean he is beeter than dh12.

But you can't see anything ? :lol
(Because you are dh12 homer)

For example, you can see ZO's shooting range is longer,longer and longer than dh12.

I didn't want to post these pics but I have to.(because of dh12 's homer)

You can't accept real world so I would let you know real world.

This is your all time greatest level dh12 :roll:


VS Yao
[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Houston%20Rockets/Yao%20Ming/VS%20dwight%20howard/reasonwhydwighthowardcantbeoneof-2.gif[/img]

VS Bynum

Bynum blocks Dwight Howard Twice within 2 Min
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3n6jVxJ-rY[/url]

[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20Situation/Revenge/AndrewBynumblocksdwighthoward100307.gif[/img]

VS Big Ben
[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Houston%20Rockets/Yao%20Ming/VS%20dwight%20howard/-.gif[/img]

VS Roy Hibbert
[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Indiana%20Pacers/Roy%20Hibbert/100106dh12.gif[/img]


VS Gerald Wallace
[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Charlotte%20Bobcats/Gerald%20Wallace/100421GeraldWallaceblocksDwightHowa.gif[/img]

fake superman (aka Elbow Man) vs Real SUPERMAN
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIZYl32K9Os[/url]

ZO VS dh12

[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Alonzo%20Mourning/z%20Block%20Party/dwight%20howard/alonzomourningdestroysdwighthoward.gif[/img]

[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Alonzo%20Mourning/z%20Block%20Party/dwight%20howard/alonzomourningrejectsdwighthoward.gif[/img]

Zo had better post moves and he can shoot the mid. And was a great defender. I'm actually shocked that Howard isn't better or equal than Mourning in bpg. I could've sworn he had as many as Mourning.

Howard is better at finishing the ball at the rim. He is almost like Shaq in that aspect. And he is a better rebounder. Howard still has room to grow.

Mourning did face against better competition of front liners in his day, but I think Howard is going to have a more successful career and has more potential than Mourning. But he has to achieve that potential and work harder.

[QUOTE=nbacardDOTnet]LMAO It's not strange your comment.
You can't accept fact. Because you are a dh12 homer.



U don't know NBA history.

Do you think dh12 is the greatest level of Bill, Wilt, Kareem kinds ? :roll:

come on



I don't deny ZO and the others(90's C Players) had elbowed.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iO4l98K-1o[/url]

But they hadn't elbowed much like throuth entire series.

What do you think about this ?

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSgawbtKtzM[/url]



Yah One buzzer doesn't mean he is beeter than dh12.

But you can't see anything ? :lol
(Because you are dh12 homer)

For example, you can see ZO's shooting range is longer,longer and longer than dh12.

I didn't want to post these pics but I have to.(because of dh12 's homer)

You can't accept real world so I would let you know real world.

This is your all time greatest level dh12 :roll:


VS Yao
[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Houston%20Rockets/Yao%20Ming/VS%20dwight%20howard/reasonwhydwighthowardcantbeoneof-2.gif[/img]

VS Bynum

Bynum blocks Dwight Howard Twice within 2 Min
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3n6jVxJ-rY[/url]

[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20Situation/Revenge/AndrewBynumblocksdwighthoward100307.gif[/img]

VS Big Ben
[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Houston%20Rockets/Yao%20Ming/VS%20dwight%20howard/-.gif[/img]

VS Roy Hibbert
[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/1%20Indiana%20Pacers/Roy%20Hibbert/100106dh12.gif[/img]




ZO VS dh12

[/QUOTE]


First off, making a bunch of gifs of Dwight getting his shot blocked doesn't mean he is worse than those guys. Anyone can do that about anyone, you're really not helping your point.

I guess Zo is worse than Vince carter?
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcU66xdeGck[/url]

Vs. Grant Hill
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otYKIMXU2rs[/url]

Vs. Carmelo, Mason, Josh Smith? Etc..
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otYKIMXU2rs[/url]

See how easy that was? Stop with your useless gifs, you're not impressing anyone. I could easily find a video of Dwight dominating those same players as well.


Y'know, I always thought you were a Dwight hater because of that picture that you constantly pull out, but now that I see that plethora of gifs that you keep, that's all the proof I need. Find a new hobby, man.

Also, did I say Dwight was a top 10 Center? I just said that Prime Zo was better! But this notion that Dwight will never be able to approach him and that he's weak and all that is ridiculous. Far from a homer, buddy.

Also, the thing is, yeah Zo did elbow throughout an entire series, buddy. Let's not forget all the dirty stuff Garnett did against Dwight, some of which are in that very video you posted! You're destroying your own argument!

Name one player who hasn't had their shot blocked by a smaller man before?

I'll wait...

mourning

bladers = 12, so he didnt watvh live mourning

Right now I still take a prime Alonzo Mourning. Mainly because of his mentality (like many have already pointed out) and his post moves when compared to Dwight`s (although Mourning was not Hakeem or nearly him but compared to Howard he was better at the offensive end).

If people take in count regular season stats and performances, yes, they are very equal, but right now, Howard`s style of play is predictable at times and easier to guard in comparison with all time centers. I mean, Howard struggles a lot against a good team defense (2009 lakers and 2010 celtics) have proven this, even the Bobcats pulled something interesting in the first matches of the first round series this year. Make him struggle to gain the deep position, take him further from the basket, make him do forced shots, long jumping hooks...etc, thats when Howard struggles. If you allow Howard to gain the deep position your lost (he is probably better than Alonzo in that regard), his power and dunking hability and finishing hability when close is too much to handle.

Defensively I see them pretty equal, Mourning might have the edge on blocks but Howard is the slightly better rebounder (specially defensive), has more mobility for a big man (kind of Bill Russell type) and if im not wrong, he averages more steals.

So what is Howard lacking right now in comparison to all time great centers? a winning mentality, a fierce winning mentality first of all. He has to take that lame smile out of his face sometimes, and start to be a badass. There isnt more explanation needed really, simple as that. Second, he needs to improve his passing skills, with the amount of double teams he gets and the good quality spot up 3pt shooters the Magic have, he could do even more damage. Although I admit he has improved in the passing area since he entered the league. And third, as I pointed out above, needs to develop a bit more of range in his game and some more variety of post moves, the way he plays at the offensive end is still very predictable to guard when the important stage of the season comes.


Maybe in the future im going with Dwight, but of what ive seen right now, its Alonzo Mourning for me.

first of all mourning's peak was '99, and second of all dwight howard in '09 was easily better

[QUOTE=LAClipsFan33]And all those guys are better than Dwight[/QUOTE]

Mutombo aint got shit on Dwight

Mourning, even though I don't like him.

[QUOTE=Bigsmoke]Mutombo aint got shit on Dwight[/QUOTE]
Moutombo is one of the greatest defensive C's that the game has ever seen. One of the greatest shotblocker and rebounders basketball has ever seen. He took the Nuggets from the 8th seed and beat the number 1 Sonics in their prime with guys like Shawn Kemp, Gary Payon, Nate McMillian,Detlef Schremf and Eddie Johonson.

Early on his career Deke was 17 points per game game player but he changed his game and concentrated on defense.Deke could score if he needed to.

:lol at Deke "could score if he needed to".

You guys thought Howard has bad footwork and looks awkward on offense? Deke makes Al Gore look like Michael Jackson. How many quality players out there have ever had their rookie season as their best scoring season?

As to the OP: Mourning with the slight edge on both ends.

[QUOTE=greymatter]:lol at Deke "could score if he needed to".

You guys thought Howard has bad footwork and looks awkward on offense? Deke makes Al Gore look like Michael Jackson. How many quality players out there have ever had their rookie season as their best scoring season?[/QUOTE]
Deke was a consistant 16 points per game player in his first few seasons. He wasnt pretty, but he could score off put backs and few hand offs.

[QUOTE=ronnymac]Deke was a consistant 16 points per game player in his first few seasons. [/quote]

You've a very poor memory.

First five season averages: 16.6, 13.8, 12.0, 11.5, 11.0. Has there ever been an allstar caliber player in league history with decreasing scoring averages over his first 5 seasons?

[quote]
He wasnt pretty, but he could score off put backs and few hand offs.[/QUOTE]

He was at best a rich man's Mark Eaton.

First few seasons if you add up the first 3 season averages, it equates to around 14 a game and thats what i meant.Secondly it went down because he was better off focusing on what his strength was and that was to play defense. He had high scoring guys like Abdul rauf and LaPhonso Ellis(both in Denver and Atlanta) and Steve Smith with Mookie Baylock in Atlanta.

I like Deke and if I needed someone to guard prime Shaq, Yao, Ewing ect. I'd say he'd do a better job, but in terms of building a championship team, I'd take Mourning and Howard over him 10 times out of 10.

As great as Mutombo was, he was never a legit franchise player/superstar like Mourning and Howard. Mourning and Howard can dominate defensively while giving you 20 ppg.

[QUOTE=ronnymac]First few seasons if you add up the first 3 season averages, it equates to around 14 a game and thats what i meant.Secondly it went down because he was better off focusing on what his strength was and that was to play defense. He had high scoring guys like Abdul rauf and LaPhonso Ellis(both in Denver and Atlanta) and Steve Smith with Mookie Baylock in Atlanta.[/QUOTE]

Focus schmocus. He simply wasn't a good option to run an offense through. His jump hook looked uglier than Anthony Mason's FT technique.

kidding? Zo. Next. Better defender(Dwight is great due to athletic ability, but Zo was better man to man and was generally tougher) and better true post scorer and brought a tenacity that Dwight can't dream of. He just likes to laugh and play.

I don't see Zo leading the Magic team to the Finals that Dwight did. Zo never made the Finals until late in his career with Miami, and never led his team there.

Dwight is just such a monster on the boards and defensively. If Howard could play as physical as Zo was allowed to he would be even more frightening.

It's close, and may depend on team need, but I have to go with Dwight, especially considering he is only 24 and has yet to peak.

[QUOTE=ChuckOakley]I don't see Zo leading the Magic team to the Finals that Dwight did. Zo never made the Finals until late in his career with Miami, and never led his team there.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: There was this guy named Michael Jordan who played in the Eastern Conference in the 90's, when Zo had a team capable of going all the way(96-97 61 win "Road Warriors" Miami Heat).

Dwight would've[B] never[/B] seen the Finals in that era, either.

Zo was never as good as Dwight currently is imo.

[QUOTE=BFRESH44]:oldlol: There was this guy named Michael Jordan who played in the Eastern Conference in the 90's, when Zo had a team capable of going all the way(96-97 61 win "Road Warriors" Miami Heat).

Dwight would've[B] never[/B] seen the Finals in that era, either.[/QUOTE]
96 - 1st round sweep to CHI
97 - ECF lost to CHI
98 - 1st round to NYK
99 - 1st round to NYK
00 - 2nd round to NYK
01 - 1st round sweep to CHA
02 - Missed playoffs

[QUOTE=BFRESH44]:oldlol: There was this guy named Michael Jordan who played in the Eastern Conference in the 90's, when Zo had a team capable of going all the way(96-97 61 win "Road Warriors" Miami Heat).

Dwight would've[B] never[/B] seen the Finals in that era, either.[/QUOTE]

If only the world were built on woulds and coulds......

And what about in '98 when they didn't even make it out of the first round? Despite being the 2nd seed and facing the 7th seed Knicks with HCA?

Can't blame Jordan for that.

In 1999, the Heats best scorers in the playoffs outside of Zo averaged 10.2 PPG (PJ Brown) and 10.0 PPG (Jamal Mashburn). He played with some great teams in those years, Tim Hardaway could take over games and Riley is obviously good, but I felt he was more of the man for his team than Dwight is. You could say Dwight lead his team to the Finals, and he did, but undoubtedly he had (and still has) alot of help on the offensive end - for instance he finished 4th in field goal attempts for the Magic in the 09 post season behind Lewis, Turk, and Alston. That much fire power around you surely opens things up for Dwight, and when teams buckle down on defense (like LA did, and Boston did this last season) it makes it much harder for Howard. If I had to choose a player to generate offense on a not-so-great team, it would probably be Alonzo with his more polished offense.

[QUOTE=zORi]If only the world were built on woulds and coulds......

And what about in '98 when they didn't even make it out of the first round? Despite being the 2nd seed and facing the 7th seed Knicks with HCA?

Can't blame Jordan for that.[/QUOTE]
You forgot to mention that Zo was suspended for game 5 because of the brawl with LJ. He was also playing injured that series cause of a broken nose. He had a mask on for the first 3 games which disrupted his game a bit. Game 4, he had 29 pts on 79% shooting. Nobody could really guard him since Ewing was injured for the series. 1999, his teammates were absolute [b]trash[/b] in the playoffs. Mashburn, the resident chokeartist, saw a severe decline in his game in the postseason. He could never really get going in a structured offense like Miami had. Tim Hardaway shot [b]27%[/b] from the field and was locked up by Childs and Ward. He has to be one of the most overrated point guards from that era. Too reliant on deep / pull up 3s and he lost his explosiveness in his Miami years. How we can blame Zo for this is beyond me.....

[QUOTE]96 - 1st round sweep to CHI
97 - ECF lost to CHI
98 - 1st round to NYK
99 - 1st round to NYK
00 - 2nd round to NYK
01 - 1st round sweep to CHA
02 - Missed playoffs[/QUOTE]
Dwight wouldn't lead them any further. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. The thought of Dwight standing up to Rodman makes me cringe. Dude would probably start smiling.

Great comparison. Two very close players.

Many people don't remember Alonzo's defensive impact since it goes beyond stats. Much like David Robinson and Tim Duncan (not quite on their level, but still very good), he had a large defensive impact since he tried hard on both ends of the floor all the time. He had good spacing, almost always contested shots well, and dude put in buckets on the other end.

Let's not forget how much of a beast the guy was 'til '01. Even when he burst onto the scene as a rookie, he was extremely good. I still remember the Zo/LJ combo for the Hornets, lol :P


Howard's a more dominant rebounder though (sort of obvious), but something tells me those stats of his are going to slide a bit within the next couple years. Great centers usually stop going all out for boards after a handful of years when they start to conserve their energy a bit more throughout games so they can play extra minutes.

Still, taking nothing away from him, he's the best defender in the NBA right now, and imo that's not even debatable. My only curent beef with Howard are his offense. If he could somehow improve his FT shooting a bit, or at least develop some extra post moves so he's more of a go-to guy, people will start giving him the props he deserves. It kills me to see people's top 5 or top 10 current NBA players lists, and he's somehow not on it. Dude's a top 3-5 player easily.

Anyway, who to pick. . .I'd probably go with Zo' since he's had the longer career and embarrassed Dwight when he was old once. That said, Howard's still one of my fav' players right now, and I'd bet he gets an MVP and a title or two at some point. . .as the main guy on his team. That'd easily propel him above Zo' in my book. Or even another 3 seasons like he's been putting up.

Two great players. . .good topic!

[QUOTE=SCdac]In 1999, the Heats best scorers in the playoffs outside of Zo averaged 10.2 PPG (PJ Brown) and 10.0 PPG (Jamal Mashburn). He played with some great teams in those years, Tim Hardaway could take over games and Riley is obviously good, but I felt he was more of the man for his team than Dwight is. You could say Dwight lead his team to the Finals, and he did, but undoubtedly he had (and still has) alot of help on the offensive end - for instance he finished 4th in field goal attempts for the Magic in the 09 post season behind Lewis, Turk, and Alston. That much fire power around you surely opens things up for Dwight, and when teams buckle down on defense (like LA did, and Boston did this last season) it makes it much harder for Howard. If I had to choose a player to generate offense on a not-so-great team, it would probably be Alonzo with his more polished offense.[/QUOTE]

No doubt that Howard had more help in '09 than Zo in '99 or '00, but I think just FGA are deceptive, Dwight gets fouled on a lot of his attempts because his game is around the rim. Here are their attempts if you divide the FTA by 2 and add them to the FGA and call them scoring attempts.

Here are their numbers for the 2009 playoffs

[B]1.Lewis-[/B] 16.9 scoring attempts
[B]2.Howard-[/B] 16.6 scoring attempts
[B]3.Turkoglu-[/B] 14.7 scoring attempts
[B]4.Alston-[/B] 13.1 scoring attempts

Lewis and Howard were basically identical, but Orlando's offense did revolve more around Howard than Lewis and he was definitely doubled more than Lewis.

Getting away from the direct comparison a bit... I know this thread was about two particular season for these guys, even though it's turned into an all-around comparison... seems like people have quickly forgotten that Dwight is just a couple years removed from a second and first round rout by the Pistons... and that he just came off a 18 PPG reg season and post season, which is sort of underwhelming for a supposed "superstar", who should be a 20 PPG or more player with the tools he has... the way he's talked about as one of the greatest big men to grace the game, is a head scratcher to me... He reminds me of like a very rich man's Andris Biedrins, versus say a really poor man's Shaq... I think there's a reason about 90% of the people in this thread, including the OP, have picked Zo ('s season) as the better one.

It's really unfaire to compare a 24-25 years old DH12 with Zo... I wonder what a real Peak, 27-28 years old, DH12 could be...

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]No doubt that Howard had more help in '09 than Zo in '99 or '00, but I think just FGA are deceptive, Dwight gets fouled on a lot of his attempts because his game is around the rim. Here are their attempts if you divide the FTA by 2 and add them to the FGA and call them scoring attempts.

Here are their numbers for the 2009 playoffs

[B]1.Lewis-[/B] 16.9 scoring attempts
[B]2.Howard-[/B] 16.6 scoring attempts
[B]3.Turkoglu-[/B] 14.7 scoring attempts
[B]4.Alston-[/B] 13.1 scoring attempts

Lewis and Howard were basically identical, but Orlando's offense did revolve more around Howard than Lewis and he was definitely doubled more than Lewis.[/QUOTE]

I don't think it's deceptive at all.

When the PF and SF are taking over 200 three pointers combined in the playoffs, it gives the center a certain amount of room to operate. I definitely saw a reciprocal offensive system, versus one that was merely and solely inside-out. There were a good amount of games where one of Lewis, Pietrus, Turk, etc, lead in scoring. I don't quite see Howard as an elite offensive player in the mold of some past players, as much as a player who is above-average offensively, who can go off for elite-like scoring games. His moves and touch just isn't there [I]consistently[/I] enough.

Howard gets to the line very well on his own accord, he's almost impossible to keep of the glass at times, but surely teams don't mind and even put him on the line on purpose. It gets the other team in foul trouble, but 6 fouls for a bunch of bigs isn't that hard to expend, and making only 55-65% of your free throws, that tends to be the kind of player "hack a ____" strategies are based on. I'd rather make Howard go to the line and earn his points on every possession, than let him get easy buckets.

[QUOTE=alexandreben]It's really unfaire to compare a 24-25 years old DH12 with Zo... I wonder what a real Peak, 27-28 years old, DH12 could be...[/QUOTE]

Why are we absolutely, with a great amount of certainty, assuming he's going to become much better than he is now? Merely because weeks and months go by? I do think he'll improve with experience, but if anything, he's regressed in the past season... and it's not about statistics really, it's about him, his keenness and acumen, or lack thereof, and is he willing to (or can he) improve on it.

[QUOTE=SCdac]Getting away from the direct comparison a bit... I know this thread was about two particular season for these guys, even though it's turned into an all-around comparison... seems like people have quickly forgotten that Dwight is just a couple years removed from a second and first round rout by the Pistons... and that he just came off a 18 PPG reg season and post season, which is sort of underwhelming for a supposed "superstar", who should be a 20 PPG or more player with the tools he has... the way he's talked about as one of the greatest big men to grace the game, is a head scratcher to me... He reminds me of like a very rich man's Andris Biedrins, versus say a really poor man's Shaq... I think there's a reason about 90% of the people in this thread, including the OP, have picked Zo ('s season) as the better one.[/QUOTE]

Even a very rich man's Biedrins is harsh, IMO. While Dwight isn't that polished offensively, I've still seen better post moves from Howard than Biedrins, he has off the charts athleticism and his defensive impact is light years ahead of Biedrins. I think he's too far away from either Biedrins or Shaq to make a comparison. That's why I made the comparison here, Howard to me is a less skilled, more athletic Mourning and in the end, I take the skills because they're more reliable when the production is similar.

And we do basically have a consensus so far.

[B]Mourning[/B]
Me
lukekarts
Rose
ronnymac
2Letters
Sarcastic
BFRESH44
AlonzoMagic
CambyLandCan
Jasper
SCdac
Thorpesaurus
LAClipsFan33
andgar923
necya
Manute for ever
Dwade305
tontoz
FindingTim
zORI
RocketGreatness
Showtime
nbacardDOTnet
DatWasNashty
oh the horror
triangleoffense
EarlTheGoat
jstern
greymatter
Nastradamus
SinJackal

[B]Howard[/B]
Bladers
joyner82
Magic Vinsanity
Shep
ChuckOakley
jbryan1984

31 have picked Zo and 6 have picked Howard

Dwight Howard hasn't peaked yet.

[QUOTE=DatWasNashty]You forgot to mention that Zo was suspended for game 5 because of the brawl with LJ. He was also playing injured that series cause of a broken nose. He had a mask on for the first 3 games which disrupted his game a bit. Game 4, he had 29 pts on 79% shooting. Nobody could really guard him since Ewing was injured for the series. 1999, his teammates were absolute [b]trash[/b] in the playoffs. Mashburn, the resident chokeartist, saw a severe decline in his game in the postseason. He could never really get going in a structured offense like Miami had. Tim Hardaway shot [b]27%[/b] from the field and was locked up by Childs and Ward. He has to be one of the most overrated point guards from that era. Too reliant on deep / pull up 3s and he lost his explosiveness in his Miami years. How we can blame Zo for this is beyond me.....


Dwight wouldn't lead them any further. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. The thought of Dwight standing up to Rodman makes me cringe. Dude would probably start smiling.[/QUOTE]

Nah I didn't forget to mention, I could also counter that with the fact that the only team Zo ever beat Ewing in a series was when Ewing (and most of his team) was suspended for multiple games because of a fight.

Or that fact that in 1999 Zo was 28 (turned 28 about a month and a half before the start), while Ewing was 36 (turning 37 about 3 and a half months later). Poor excuse.

I also wasn't blaming Zo, I was just saying it's not like he had a beautiful career with no blemishes. Every player has.

Seriously, this smiling thing is getting ridiculous. He jokes around during games, but never when it's close, not only that, but almost every player does this. I could find a clip or 2 of Kobe playing around with Wade and Nash during games, it happens. I bet everyone who has to guard him doesn't think he's too nice.

BTW, I'm starting to think that people here are thinking I don't like Zo. I do, actually, but the notion that Dwight can't approach him is ridiculous.

[QUOTE=SCdac]Why are we absolutely, with a great amount of certainty, assuming he's going to become much better than he is now? Merely because weeks and months go by? I do think he'll improve with experience, but if anything, he's regressed in the past season... and it's not about statistics really, it's about him, his keenness and acumen, or lack thereof, and is he willing to (or can he) improve on it.[/QUOTE]

He's bound to increase a little, but the opportunity is there for him to increase quite a bit.

We can't say that he will, but we also can't say that he won't, either.

[QUOTE=ZenMaster]Dwight Howard hasn't peaked yet.[/QUOTE]

You sure? He's not going to be running and jumping around like this at 27. He has no fundamentals.

Alonzo, but I am also a Heat fan so..