Until LeBron leads a team to the championship he will be number 2.
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Until LeBron leads a team to the championship he will be number 2.
[QUOTE=LA_Showtime]It's clear as day that LeBron's the best player in the NBA. Forget stats; watch the damn games.[/QUOTE]
Even stats wise Lebron is the best player. His stats are down this year due to having the two other stars.
If Lebron wanted to he could easily average 30, 7 and 8 on 50% like last year.
He is averaging what, 24, 6 and 7 this year? still the best overall numbers IMO.
Although Wade is running him close right now, dude is balling like he was when he led Miami to the title . Kobe is my favourite player but you can't deny facts that both Lebron and Wade are the clear best two players right now. Scary thing is they are getting better and better playing together which is a worry for the rest of the league not just this season but for several more.
Honestly, I think right now the conversation has to be between Wade & LeBron with Kobe looking in from the outside.
Sure, you can argue that Kobe's the best player on the best team, but he's just not at either Wade or LeBron's level individually now. He's still going to get his numbers, but I don't see him overpower teams anymore. He can get hot and burn a defense with midrange shots now, but so can Paul Pierce. Wade and LeBron are the only two guys right now that can just destroy a team in a flurry.
To call Kobe the best right now is basing an argument off of team success and reputation. That's fine, but individually he's no longer the most effective player.
[QUOTE=All Net]Scary thing is they are getting better and better playing together which is a worry for the rest of the league not just this season but for several more.[/QUOTE]
Well, and they're killing teams so easily. When Wade or LeBron get 35, it's different now. It used to be that they just muscled their way to those numbers. Now, it seems like Wade will drop 40 and not break a sweat.
They do have holes, but no team has anything like Wade & LeBron. Each may only have to have a really good game once or twice in a series. Before, they had to be great four times to have a chance. I look at these must-win games (game five against Boston aside), both players tend to show up in big games. If it's a 2-2 series, I wonder if even Boston could keep both of them in check.
[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]Honestly, I think right now the conversation has to be between Wade & LeBron with Kobe looking in from the outside.[/QUOTE]
Wade and LeBron are the two best players in the league right now, following is Kobe at 3rd (he'll kick it up another notch come post season and probably superceed one or both of these guys) ...
But them both being equals (Wade and LeBron) they negate each other for MVP votes, and there is no gap between them as players. Regardless of what any LeBron stan wants to tell you. I've never met a crazy, delusional Wade, btw. Scratch that ... maybe just one. Papaya Pete (sp) ?
:oldlol:
[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]Wade and LeBron are the two best players in the league right now, following is Kobe at 3rd (he'll kick it up another notch come post season and probably superceed one or both of these guys) ...
But them both being equals (Wade and LeBron) they negate each other for MVP votes, and there is no gap between them as players. Regardless of what any LeBron stan wants to tell you. I've never met a crazy, delusional Wade, btw. Scratch that ... maybe just one. Papaya Pete (sp) ?
:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
I've always felt LeBron was the best of the two, but it wasn't by a large margin. If LeBron's better than Wade or vice versa, it's by like 10%.
[QUOTE=crisoner]Until LeBron leads a team to the championship he will be number 2.[/QUOTE]
Dont you mean number 4? Shaq, Duncan led their team to championships aswell and from what i know they are still playing today. Dont let the fact of Lebron playing better than Kobe, Shaq, Duncan right now come in between that logic right? :) Make it number 5 for Lebron considering Wade also led his team to a championship aswell. Thats right, with your logic Lebron is out of Top 5 and is no more one of the best players in the league because he didnt lead a team to something what is the biggest [B]team accomplishment[/B] in NBA history, to something which is impossible to win alone, to something which not even if you averaged a 50 point quadruple double you couldnt win if you didnt had the required level of efficiency from your teammates, coach, staff, franchise beside you.
[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]I've always felt LeBron was the best of the two, but it wasn't by a large margin. If LeBron's better than Wade or vice versa, it's by like 10%.[/QUOTE]
Not even ... absolutely equal. What marginal difference you feel LeBron brings to on the court value (it isn't anything significant, but you're a LeBron stan ..) Wade probably is better with things from a mental capacity and intangibles. Neither one of them has clearly separated themselves from one another.
I think Wade > LeBron because he is more reliable in the post season. Durability is the only reason why LeBron has advantages in the regular season. Wade should have 2-3 rings by now if not for freak injuries.
Lebron and Wade and the heat in general are playing A LOT harder than kobe and the lakers right now because they have a lot more to prove(and a lot higher expectations to live up to).. does anyone disagree with this? Because it is a big factor for why theyre playing better right now..
Come playoff time.. when kobe and pau up their games and start going hard again the discussion will be much closer, but for now lebron is easily the best basketball player in the game.
Right now in the League i only see a few players that can absolutely destroy teams and that is Lebron,Wade,Melo,and Rose.Guys that can do it when their hot D-Will,Durant,Amare,Westbrook,Dirk,Pierce,Manu,and i would say Kobe is in this group in this stage of his career which is still good company with the team he has to bad for Roy who falls out of either group with his potential career ending knee injury and im still not sure which group Arenas will fall in yet.
[QUOTE=T-bomb 25]Right now in the League i only see a few players that can absolutely destroy teams and that is Lebron,Wade,Melo,and Rose.Guys that can do it when their hot D-Will,Durant,Amare,Westbrook,Dirk,Pierce,Manu,and i would say Kobe is in this group in this stage of his career which is still good company with the team he has to bad for Roy who falls out of either group with his potential career ending knee injury.[/QUOTE]
Rose doesn't even come close to impacting the game as much as wade or lebron right now. And come playoff time he won't touch those two or kobe.
In the playoffs, lebron, wade, and kobe are all on a separate plane from the rest of the league.
[QUOTE=tpols]Lebron and Wade and the heat in general are playing A LOT harder than kobe and the lakers right now because they have a lot more to prove(and a lot higher expectations to live up to).. does anyone disagree with this? [/QUOTE]
I'd actually say it's more than just disinterest. I think they're perimeter defense looks old and slow.
[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]I'd actually say it's more than just disinterest. I think they're perimeter defense looks old and slow.[/QUOTE]
They are old and slower. They also are clearly disinterested.
[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]Not even ... absolutely equal. What marginal difference you feel LeBron brings to on the court value (it isn't anything significant, but you're a LeBron stan ..) Wade probably is better with things from a mental capacity and intangibles. Neither one of them has clearly separated themselves from one another.[/QUOTE]
It's the physical component. LeBron has and always will be the bigger mismatch for any team's defense. Wade just can't match that.
[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]I'd actually say it's more than just disinterest. I think they're perimeter defense looks old and slow.[/QUOTE]
Not just perimeter defense. ALL defense. Interior, Transition and Perimeter. They are starting to look very lethargic out there. They don't even score in transition nearly as much yet their opponents are running all over them. That's their biggest issue in my opinion. Forget Kobe taking a lot of shots the defense needs to get corrected first.
[QUOTE=tpols]Rose doesn't even come close to impacting the game as much as wade or lebron right now. And come playoff time he won't touch those two or kobe.
In the playoffs, lebron, wade, and kobe are all on a separate plane from the rest of the league.[/QUOTE]You must dont watch much of Rose,and to be honest except for Wade early in their careers in the playoffs well rookie season to second season Rose played better in the playoffs than Lebron and Kobe,and this is facts not a opinion....
[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]They are old and slower. They also are clearly disinterested.[/QUOTE]
Nah, the disinterested thing is just an excuse.
[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]It's the physical component. LeBron has and always will be the bigger mismatch for any team's defense. Wade just can't match that.[/QUOTE]
Not true at all. LeBron is a mismatch for any team defense, yes .. but LeBron hardly ... if ever takes advantage of that mismatch in an appropriate way. IE using his one advantage he has over Wade (his size) in the post. He doesn't do that. And as of right now, Wade is a much better post player and off the ball player than LeBron.
Wade is just as big of a mismatch for teams as LeBron. No one on the floor can stop him from getting from point a to point b, or him doing whatever he wants out there.
You can try to justify it all you'd like. But there is no clear separation. Even in resumes. LeBron 2 MVP's? Great. Wade? A championship (best player on team) and NBA Finals MVP? Equally as great.
[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]Nah, the disinterested thing is just an excuse.[/QUOTE]
Nah, they're also clearly bored. This Lakers team has been known to turn it off and on at a whim. It's not always in their best interest, but they do it. It's the reason they went 7 games with Houston in 2009, etc. They have lapses in interest and focus.
I mean, this will be the 4th year in a row they are battling it out for a NBA championship. You think they are interested in December and January regular season games? Ummm, no. They have nothing to prove or get excited for until playoffs kick in. Even then, given their level of experience, they will probably be bored with the 1st and 2nd round till a worthy opponent comes along.
[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]You can try to justify it all you'd like. But there is no clear separation. Even in resumes. LeBron 2 MVP's? Great. Wade? A championship (best player on team) and NBA Finals MVP? Equally as great.[/QUOTE]
Try to justify? Sounds like you're the one trying to push something.
I've watched these guys since they came in and Wade is just not better. LeBron is the guy you take, always. Wade's damn close, but I'm not taking a 6'4 shooting guard over a 6'8 point forward.
No GM in the league takes Wade before LeBron.
It's close, but LeBron is the choice, objectively anyway.
[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]
No GM in the league takes Wade before LeBron.[/quote]
Because of hype, potential, etc.
As actual players, they are neck and neck.
Who are you kidding ..
[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]Nah, they're also clearly bored. This Lakers team has been known to turn it off and on at a whim. It's not always in their best interest, but they do it. It's the reason they went 7 games with Houston in 2009, etc. They have lapses in interest and focus.
I mean, this will be the 4th year in a row they are battling it out for a NBA championship. You think they are interested in December and January regular season games? Ummm, no. They have nothing to prove or get excited for until playoffs kick in. Even then, given their level of experience, they will probably be bored with the 1st and 2nd round till a worthy opponent comes along.[/QUOTE]
That may have been true a few years ago, but I can see Kobe dogging it and missing thirteen shots in a row. I remember Wade getting by him with ease. Fisher getting killed by Parker... Artest looking like a fool against LeBron.
These were physical limitations. Not lack of interest.
When I hear these kinds of BS arguments about lack of interest, it sounds like Lakers fans' hopes rather than what's actually happening.
[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]Nah, they're also clearly bored. This Lakers team has been known to turn it off and on at a whim. It's not always in their best interest, but they do it. It's the reason they went 7 games with Houston in 2009, etc. They have lapses in interest and focus.
I mean, this will be the 4th year in a row they are battling it out for a NBA championship. You think they are interested in December and January regular season games? Ummm, no. They have nothing to prove or get excited for until playoffs kick in. Even then, given their level of experience, they will probably be bored with the 1st and 2nd round till a worthy opponent comes along.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but this is garbage. Or if it's true, then the Lakers are fools. The NBA has gotten better, both in the West and the East (as far as the top teams are concerned). Boston is much better than last year. The Heat obviously are. Ditto Dallas and San Antonio. The homecourt advantage will be HUGE this year. There is a good chance LA doesn't win the title without it the past couple of years. When they began this malaise, Dallas and SA were far ahead of them. If they think they can just depend on cruising through the season and get a 3rd or worse seed and then "turn it on" when they feel like it, then they're stupid. Further, there are differences in how they've performed this year so far and how they have previously even WITH the regular season doldrums they may have had in the past.
Like I said, if they have no interest in securing homecourt then they're fools. Since I don't think they're fools, I'd say it's a bit more than "disinterest". Now, things could change by the end of the year but at this point right now, pointing to disinterest IS an excuse because they have to realize how important getting the top seed is.
[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]Because of hype, potential, etc.
As actual players, they are neck and neck.
Who are you kidding ..[/QUOTE]
Please. Who are you kidding? That's just trash right there. "Hype" "Potential"
These guys have played 8 seasons. We've gone beyond hype and potential.
Dude, I get it. You don't like the guy. Fine. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]Because of hype, potential, etc.
As actual players, they are neck and neck.
Who are you kidding ..[/QUOTE]
To be fair, no one is going to take Wade over LeBron for a few different reasons. Age and potential are the two biggest ones. LeBron is still evolving as a player and is 4 years younger than Wade. That means something if we are talking about taking who or who. Realistically speaking, they are extremely close as individual players. Both can score at will, take over games, can go 1 on 5, have impressive resumes, and are legitimate superstars. The only reason I would say LeBron is better is because he's a little more versatile than Wade is. If he ever figured out how to use his body the right way, I don't think anyone would argue about Kobe,Wade,Howard,etc... being better. It would be a given.
[QUOTE=Inactive]That trust you have in your opinions is one of the limitations I was referring to.
Scientists once knew, from their years of experience treating, and analyzing patients, that draining their blood was an effective treatment for most diseases. How many fans are convinced that their favorite team wins more, when they're watching? How many people claim that they love one brand of soft drink, and hate the other, and then can't tell the difference between the two in blind taste tests? How many people are given placebos, and still think that they were given effective medicine? How many people thought that they were healed by Franz Mesmer's animal magnetism, before he was outed as a fraud?
Unless you're validating your impressions with data, and corroborating with (relatively) unbiased observers, your opinion is practically worthless. You're delusional, if you think otherwise.[/QUOTE]
You forgot to mention that most data based studies start with an assumption or hypothesis that someone made. Then they progress and prove it with data. If you think about it, it might not be PROVEN before the data comes out, but their assumption was correct when it was made; it just needed to be shoved down people's throats for it to be accepted. This is true for most unconventional ideas.
You also are trying to compare people who the average man would define as idiots or, at least, sheep, to the person you are debating. I'd say that unless you can point out something that he has said that shows such bias or blindness, then you're just talking about 'some people' opposed to him.
No matter what you say, your eyes are the best bet for judging things. The more you have studied data, the more your eyes are trained to tell what matters and what doesn't.
By the way, if you label anything that disagrees with you as biased, how does that even make sense?
We all know that stats are very misleading. There are plenty of stats that I believe they could come up with that would be more 'advanced', but they haven't really tapped into that. Even stuff like PER uses basic stats in a formula. Again, stats could tell more of the story than they do, but since they are so subjective (no stat for boxing out, no stat for helping on defense, no real way to determine what kind of a basket is assisted, no stat for correctly swinging the ball... etc) how can you say they are any less subjective than an educated fan's opinion?
Just my 2 cents... but I think LeBron does have a case for best player.
-Smak
[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]Try to justify? Sounds like you're the one trying to push something.
I've watched these guys since they came in and Wade is just not better. LeBron is the guy you take, always. Wade's damn close, but [B]I'm not taking a 6'4 shooting guard over a 6'8 point forward.
[/B]
No GM in the league takes Wade before LeBron.
It's close, but LeBron is the choice, objectively anyway.[/QUOTE]
Are you sure? :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=LEFT4DEAD]Are you sure? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
What? Do you mean that Wade isn't really 6'4? :lol
[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]What? Do you mean that Wade isn't really 6'4? :lol[/QUOTE]
My bad, I thought MJ was 6'4 but he was little taller. :lol
[QUOTE=LEFT4DEAD]My bad, I thought MJ was 6'4 but he was little taller. :lol[/QUOTE]
He was supposedly 6'6.
Anyway, I was just saying that Wade is a bit undersized for a two guard.
[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]He was supposedly 6'6.
Anyway, I was just saying that Wade is a bit undersized for a two guard.[/QUOTE]
He has perfect combination of speed, quickness, weight and strength for his position and he is compensating his height with out of this planet athletism. And he was always combo guard for me. Great playmaker and penetrator in the same time with great court vision. And for me it's little doubtfull saying "undersized" for a player who has been top 10 at worse since his 2nd year.
[QUOTE=LEFT4DEAD]He has perfect combination of speed, quickness, weight and strength for his position and he is compensating his height with out of this planet athletism. And he was always combo guard for me. Great playmaker and penetrator in the same time with great court vision. And for me it's little doubtfull saying "undersized" for a player who has been top 10 at worse since his 2nd year.[/QUOTE]
But... he is undersized. I'm not saying that he's not awesome, but he is a bit smaller than what you'd want from a two guard.
[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]But... he is undersized. I'm not saying that he's not awesome, but he is a bit smaller than what you'd want from a two guard.[/QUOTE]
That's like saying Chuck was undersized for a PF. It's just irrelevant when talking about a player like Wade or Chuck since they more than make up for whatever size disadvantage they may have.
Also, Wade has really long arms which also helps.
[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]But... he is undersized. I'm not saying that he's not awesome, but he is a bit smaller than what you'd want from a two guard.[/QUOTE]
It's better to be undersized and to have others qualities like speed and athletism than to be taller and slow with bad ball handling skills etc. Just sayin'.
[QUOTE=Knoe Itawl]That's like saying Chuck was undersized for a PF. It's just irrelevant when talking about a player like Wade or Chuck since they more than make up for whatever size disadvantage they may have.
Also, Wade has really long arms which also helps.[/QUOTE]
Sure, but it's about what you'd rather have. If I have two players, fairly similar talent level, I'm not taking the undersized one of the two.
[QUOTE=Knoe Itawl]That's like saying Chuck was undersized for a PF. It's just irrelevant when talking about a player like Wade or Chuck since they more than make up for whatever size disadvantage they may have.
Also, Wade has really long arms which also helps.[/QUOTE]
I agree. Wade has long arms, with gorilla hands, and is buffer than most SGs anyway. Wade is a physical specimen at SG.
[QUOTE=ILLsmak]
-Smak[/QUOTE]
Is there any reason you sign your posts? It's as if you don't think I am capable of just scrolling up a bit or looking to the left and seeing your name right above your avatar. Just wondering.
[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]Sure, but it's about what you'd rather have. If I have two players, fairly similar talent level, I'm not taking the undersized one of the two.[/QUOTE]
I think Wade is a more deceptive scorer. He is better at getting to the rim. I don't think LeBron is as reliable (scoring-wise) as Wade, especially against tough defenses in the postseason. He is still a poor off-ball player, too.
Wade can get to the rim better than LeBron, and is more unguardable IMO. He is the least likely of the two to get shut down by defensive specialists.
[QUOTE=canefandynasty]I think Wade is a more deceptive scorer. He is better at getting to the rim. I don't think LeBron is as reliable (scoring-wise) as Wade, especially against tough defenses in the postseason. He is still a poor off-ball player, too.
[B]Wade can get to the rim better than LeBron, and is more unguardable IMO.[/B] He is the least likely of the two to shut down.[/QUOTE]
We have saw that against Celtics last year. They were only threats on their teams and Wade has had much better series against Celtics. I agree he is more unguardable than Lebron.