Would Bulls fans trade Derrick Rose for LeBron James if they had the chance?

[QUOTE=Go Getter]Lebron is a better leader? A better teammate? A better ball handler? Has a better mid range game (floaters/jumpers)?

He's more loyal to his organization? Carries less baggage? Wants to win more? Plays harder?


I don't think so chump--keep hating.[/QUOTE]

yes - has actually led his team past the first round
better teammate? what does that entail? hes a better player and is more impactful, so yes, hes a better teammate by that definition.
a better ball handler? yes. now that rose is handling the ball like lebron was his turnover numbers have gone up.
better midrange game? by a mile. your boy fell in love with the 3pt shot. stats back this up as well.

wants to win more? plays harder? how are you judging this exactly?
more loyal to the organization? based on what? the organization wasnt loyal to lebron. all those years and not a single decent player was brought to him to play alongside. the fact he didnt leave after his first contract is amazing considering he watched a peer of his win a title when a gm clearly put together a contending team for him in dwyane wade.

less baggage? yeah, you clearly know everything about nba players. :facepalm

[QUOTE=chips93]the bulls with lebron would be much better. lebron would suit chicago perfectly, [B]two guys who can get their own shot from time to time[/B] in boozer and deng, and noah, and boozer can finish well around the rim off of LBJ pick and rolls, and deng, korver can space the floor, obviously the bulls would need a replacement pg tho[/QUOTE]


YOu said it man don't roll your eyes at me.

Anyone who is a BUll's fan or watches our team knows that Deng's offensive weakness is getting his own shot without help.

Boozer also struggles mightily getting off his own shot while being guarded by taller defenders.

I'm not trying to be an asshole man but you were wrong there and just can't admit it.

[QUOTE=DRose.IS.da.MAN]Is that a joke? haha Rose is the best point gaurd defensively in the league [/QUOTE]

yep, its gotten to kobe level.

wouldnt surprise me if this no defense playing hack started getting all defensive teams soon. hell even this year wouldnt be shocking.

i'd literally take every starting pg in the league over rose on the defensive end and i'd even think real hard about taking him over nash.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

So I guess people would want Rose over Wade as well:facepalm

[QUOTE=Go Getter]YOu said it man don't roll your eyes at me.

Anyone who is a BUll's fan or watches our team knows that Deng's offensive weakness is getting his own shot without help.

Boozer also struggles mightily getting off his own shot while being guarded by taller defenders.

I'm not trying to be an asshole man but you were wrong there and just can't admit it.[/QUOTE]

you realize that deng is getting the ball assisted to him at a very similar rate to say dirk nowitzki this year, who many consider amazing at creating his own shot.

or even that of carmelo a few years ago at denver. :oldlol:

to say he can't create his own shot is a joke. keep riding that d rose diick though.

[QUOTE=donald_trump]

less baggage? yeah, you clearly know everything about nba players. :facepalm[/QUOTE]


You must not have seen the news today, Lebron's mom is all over it.

Lebron has a big press conference for his FA signing.

Lebron HAS TO have jobs and flights for his large entourage (Derrick has his brothers).

Lebron skips press conferences to go cry on the team bus or plane after tough losses.

Lebron goes on ESPN dancing in a gay "World Class Wrecking Crew" outfit looking mad dumb.

:rolleyes:

I don't have to know [I]everything[/I] about Lebron and Rose to know that Rose is less maintenence and has less baggage....it's pretty evident.

[QUOTE=Go Getter]YOu said it man don't roll your eyes at me.

Anyone who is a BUll's fan or watches our team knows that Deng's offensive weakness is getting his own shot without help.

Boozer also struggles mightily getting off his own shot while being guarded by taller defenders.

I'm not trying to be an asshole man but you were wrong there and just can't admit it.[/QUOTE]

i was wring, i did mean to say you can run a play for either of them but to me they are in practice the same thing.
there is no difference tho, a guy running off of screens, or getting an entry pass into the low block isnt help is it? how is a guy who can score off of an iso any different to a guy who can score off a curl?

This is my honest opinion as a life-long Bulls fan, as someone who always put the organization above any one player, even Michael Jordan.

Given all the humility, loyalty, and characteristics Derrick Rose has shown as a human being outside of the basketball court, mixed with the fact that he's improved every single year and everything points to him having the same drive that players like Kobe and Jordan had, I would honestly not trade him for someone like Lebron given all that has happened last summer through the decision, the show-boating and dancing, all the other stories and events that portray Lebron as more of a man-child then mature male adult.

That's JUST my personal opinion though. If someone were to say they would trade Rose for Lebron, that would make perfect sense to me too. And I wouldn't chide them about it.

[QUOTE=donald_trump]you realize that deng is getting the ball assisted to him at a very similar rate to say dirk nowitzki this year, who many consider amazing at creating his own shot.

or even that of carmelo a few years ago at denver. :oldlol:

to say he can't create his own shot is a joke. keep riding that d rose diick though.[/QUOTE]


Deng cannot creat off the dribble well.

Not saying he can't but it is definietly not a strength...it could be considered a weakness.


When we had Deng, Gordon, Kirk on the perimeter we struggled to score.


In comes this rookie and all of a sudden our offense looks TONS better.


Call it what you want but real recognize real...

Lebron should be thanking Derrick Rose for helping him get the 2nd seed in the East if they can get the job done against the Bobcats.

[QUOTE=chips93]i was wring, i did mean to say you can run a play for either of them but to me they are in practice the same thing.
there is no difference tho, a guy running off of screens, or getting an entry pass into the low block isnt help is it? how is a guy who can score off of an iso any different to a guy who can score off a curl?[/QUOTE]


No, it is not the same thing. Guys who you can iso for the last play of the game are max contract guys. IF you could iso Deng and he could get off a decent shot he would be in the upper echelon of SFs instead of just a good one.

[QUOTE=8BeastlyXOIAD]:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

So I guess people would want Rose over Wade as well:facepalm[/QUOTE]


Hell yeah. Rose is younger and has a better injury history.

No is saying the better PLAYER...it's the BETTER FIT.

Wade is damn near 30 homie.

[QUOTE=Go Getter]Deng cannot creat off the dribble well.

Not saying he can't but it is definietly not a strength...it could be considered a weakness.


When we had Deng, Gordon, Kirk on the perimeter we struggled to score.


In comes this rookie and all of a sudden our offense looks TONS better.


Call it what you want but real recognize real...[/QUOTE]

first off, :oldlol: at you using real recognize real in a serious manner. incredibly corny, you must be up there in age and trying to maintain a cool hip vibe or whatever...

second of all, the offense isn't all that much better, its your defense that is winning games.

deng has never struggled to score the ball. we're talking about deng specifically. in fact, hes having one of his poorer seasons in terms of shooting %'s.

[QUOTE=Go Getter]Hell yeah. Rose is younger and has a better injury history.

No is saying the better PLAYER...it's the BETTER FIT.

Wade is damn near 30 homie.[/QUOTE]

he's a human crash dummy at that.

someone thats 30 that playing that reckless still isnt gonna give u a lot more epic years.

[QUOTE=donald_trump]first off, :oldlol: at you using real recognize real in a serious manner. incredibly corny, you must be up there in age and trying to maintain a cool hip vibe or whatever...

second of all, the offense isn't all that much better, its your defense that is winning games.

deng has never struggled to score the ball. we're talking about deng specifically. in fact, hes having one of his poorer seasons in terms of shooting %'s.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I was SO serious dog. Like I'm here really trying to be serious with an ISH troll.:rolleyes:

Deng HAS struggled to score the ball FOOL.

You haven't followed the Bull's half as much as I have in the past 15 years.

I like how you totally disregarded the post you quoted and critiqued my slang though.

Enough of this.

No use in talking to you at all.

[QUOTE=donald_trump]first off, :oldlol: at you using real recognize real in a serious manner. incredibly corny, you must be up there in age and trying to maintain a cool hip vibe or whatever...

second of all, the offense isn't all that much better, its your defense that is winning games.

deng has never struggled to score the ball. we're talking about deng specifically. in fact, hes having one of his poorer seasons in terms of shooting %'s.[/QUOTE]

its reached Kobe level. now Rose is making Deng. I love it.

Deng in 07:

19 points 7 boards 3 assists in 37.5 minutes. 56%ts 52%efg

Deng in 11:

18 points 6 boards 3 assists in 39 minutes. 55% ts 51%efg

Yep. Rose made Deng. Deng sucks without Rose. LOL

And a side note on why ts% is a joke. Deng shot 52% from the field in 07 and is shooting 46% this year. TS% somehow rewards Deng for jacking up way too many threes this year. Deng also shot better from the ft line in 07 as well.

LOL at True Shooting and LOL at Rose making Deng.

[QUOTE=Go Getter]No, it is not the same thing. Guys who you can iso for the last play of the game are max contract guys. IF you could iso Deng and he could get off a decent shot he would be in the upper echelon of SFs instead of just a good one.[/QUOTE]


tbh thats a good point that i hadnt considered, but for the first 3 quarters of a game they are the same

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]its reached Kobe level. now Rose is making Deng. I love it.

Deng in 07:

19 points 7 boards 3 assists in 37.5 minutes. 56%ts 52%efg

Deng in 11:

18 points 6 boards 3 assists in 39 minutes. 55% ts 51%efg

Yep. Rose made Deng. Deng sucks without Rose. LOL[/QUOTE]


You love it because you and Rose haters are trying once again to skew an argument for justifying your loathesome feelings for Chicago's very own.

No one said Rose MADE Deng.

The issue was that Deng cannot create his own shot.

Earlier in his career and sometimes even now, it is easy for him to have a very silent game.

16-19 points is cool, but it can be low impact if it is not when your team really needs it.

You understand that by watching games.

Deng is having his second best season of his career, arguably his best all around.

You can attribute that to Thibs, Rose, Gar, Pax, his girlfriend's new keggel exercise class...I don't give a ****.

[QUOTE=chips93]tbh thats a good point that i hadnt considered, but for the first 3 quarters of a game they are the same[/QUOTE]


The end of shot clocks.

Broken down plays.

Killing runs.

Taking advantage of mismatches.






It's not just at the end of games though.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]

And a side note on why ts% is a joke. Deng shot 52% from the field in 07 and is shooting 46% this year. [B]TS% somehow rewards Deng for jacking up way too many threes this year[/B]. Deng also shot better from the ft line in 07 as well.

LOL at True Shooting [/QUOTE]

it rewards him for making a shot that counts for 3 instead of 2. 3 is bigger than 2. that is why it is weighted as such. TS% makes perfect sense.

[QUOTE=Go Getter]You love it because you and Rose haters are trying once again to skew an argument for justifying your loathesome feelings for Chicago's very own.

No one said Rose MADE Deng.

The issue was that Deng cannot create his own shot.

Earlier in his career and sometimes even now, it is easy for him to have a very silent game.

16-19 points is cool, but it can be low impact if it is not when your team really needs it.

You understand that by watching games.

Deng is having his second best season of his career, arguably his best all around.

You can attribute that to Thibs, Rose, Gar, Pax, his girlfriend's new keggel exercise class...I don't give a ****.[/QUOTE]

Nah, Deng is just like every other player in the league scoring around 18 points. Deng's value comes from him being a utility player that can play good defense, rebound, and score when you need it. He absolutely can get his own shot, but that isn't even relevant. He scores a lot of his points without being a ball stopper. That is a huge positive. So you see invisible and I see a lamar odom type player that can put up great numbers without having a lot of plays run for him.

Deng is about as good of a third option as there is in the league and is a great all around player in that role.

He's not having the best year of his career. That would be 07 actually. Good effort.

[QUOTE=Go Getter]The end of shot clocks.

Broken down plays.

[B]Killing runs.[/B]

Taking advantage of mismatches.






It's not just at the end of games though.[/QUOTE]


again good point, things i hadnt considered, i would disagree with the bolded tho. and broken down play is essentially the same as shot clock situation.

[QUOTE=chips93]it rewards him for making a shot that counts for 3 instead of 2. 3 is bigger than 2. that is why it is weighted as such. TS% makes perfect sense.[/QUOTE]

actually it doesn't. look at the numbers. its ridiculous that the ts% would be that close from 07 to this year.

its a flawed stat. its ok, but its much better to look at the raw numbers.

in 07 Deng took almost no threes. he missed a lot less shots and shot better from the ft line.

raw data is always better.

lol rose is good but hes being overhyped in this thread.

both lebron and wade are better than rose. i'd gladly take either of them for rose at this point.

lebrons a choker? since when is is a 29-8-8 average in the playoffs choking? its not his fault anthony parker and mo williams combined for 8 points in big games here and there haha

66 wins, and 61 wins with idiots like mo williams and a terrible coach like mike brown. nuff said

bulls wont make it past round 2. the heat are winning the playoffs 16-4

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
And a side note on why ts% is a joke. Deng shot 52% from the field in 07 and is shooting 46% this year. TS% somehow rewards Deng for jacking up way too many threes this year. Deng also shot better from the ft line in 07 as well.

LOL at True Shooting and LOL at Rose making Deng.[/QUOTE]
And his TS% is lower this year... so what's your point?

[QUOTE=chazzy]And his TS% is lower this year... so what's your point?[/QUOTE]

Its 1% lower. Completely inaccurate in terms of efficiency. I know you love TS%, but its much better to look at the raw data.

Deng is shooting 6% worse from the field (includes both 2s and 3s) and 2.5% worse from the ft line (on less attempts this year)....yet his TS% is only 1% lower this year.

LOL

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]actually it doesn't. look at the numbers. its ridiculous that the ts% would be that close from 07 to this year.

its a flawed stat. its ok, but its much better to look at the raw numbers.
[B]
in 07 Deng took almost no threes. he missed a lot less shots and shot better from the ft line.[/B]

raw data is always better.[/QUOTE]

ts% is raw data.

threes are very useful and if you think his ts% should be lower this year than you are undervaluing threes.

[QUOTE=guy]Not a chance. Rose is way too loved by the fans, teammates, and coaches. Trading away Rose would be the Celtics trading away Perkins x 1000 as far as the reaction to it goes.

Not to mention the following:

He's younger.

He doesn't care about anything but basketball and winning, unlike Lebron who does care too much about his stats and too much off the court stuff like his "brand".

If the Bulls want him, he'll be there for the rest of his career, which could be 10-15 years. If the Bulls don't win enough in the 4-5 years, good chance Lebron leaves. If he didn't have a problem leaving Cleveland after winning 60 games for back to back seasons, he'd have less of a problem leaving a team that wasn't his hometown and was traded to.

Its not like trading Rose for Lebron makes this team so much better, if better at all. You don't get much better then a title contender winning 60 games and the no. 1 seed with a bunch of injuries to some of your best players. Lebron won't make this team that much, if better at all, to make up for all those reasons I've mentioned above.[/QUOTE]

Like I said, I don't think people are really saying Rose because they think he's better. Its the relationship he has with the community/team, his age, focus, loyalty, and the difference between the two not being large enough that is the reason.

[QUOTE=chips93]ts% is raw data.

threes are very useful and if you think his ts% should be lower this year than you are undervaluing threes.[/QUOTE]

its not raw data. sorry.

fg% is raw. it just counts how many shots you make and miss. efg% and ts% over value threes. they don't factor in the other side of the equation. missed threes often lead to transition opportunities for the other team.

its just not a great measure. i don't mind it in some cases, but in this case its way off.

missed shots hurt. they hurt a lot more than these advanced metrics account for.

i've had this argument before. its better to look at all the raw data. ts% covers up way too much. if you just looked at ts%, the gap between players is just too small.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Nah, Deng is just like every other player in the league scoring around 18 points. Deng's value comes from him being a utility player that can play good defense, rebound, and [U][B]score when you need it[/B][/U]. [B][U]He absolutely can get his own shot[/U][/B], but that isn't even relevant. He scores a lot of his points without being a ball stopper. That is a huge positive. So you see invisible and I see a lamar odom type player that can put up great numbers without having a lot of plays run for him.

Deng is about as good of a third option as there is in the league and is a great all around player in that role.

[B][U]He's not having the best year of his career[/U][/B]. That would be 07 actually. Good effort.[/QUOTE]
1.) Deng is not the player you count on to score when you need it. He followed up a 40 point game this year with a dud. He used to disappear in games but you wouldn't know that because you look at stats and not game footage.

2.) No, he cannot get his own shot off against tough d. Not on a regular basis at all. You are wrong sir.


3.) His defense has improved, he is more consistent....in 07 he was not as good of a finisher as he is now....he's more consistent now, and he plays more minutes and has more confidence. (also things you can tell by WATCHING GAMES).

[QUOTE=Go Getter]1.) Deng is not the player you count on to score when you need it. He followed up a 40 point game this year with a dud. He used to disdappear in games but you wouldn't know that because you look at stats and not game footage.

2.) No, he cannot get his own shot off against tough d. Not on a regular basis at all. You are wrong sir.


3.) His defense has improved, he is more consistent....in 07 he was not as good of a finisher as he is now....he's more consistent now, and he plays more minutes and has more confidence. (also things you can tell by WATCHING GAMES).[/QUOTE]

He's a third option. Nobody is claiming Deng to be a superstar.

WTF are you talking about. Jason Terry can't get his own shot against tough defense. Deng offensively is very similar to all players scoring at this number. That is part of what makes him good. He's not a wing ISO player.

Acting like he can't get his own shot at times is absurd though. Of course he's not Dirk. Nobody is saying that.

Deng played good defense back in 07 as well. I love Deng. I'm saying that pretending like Deng is some limited offensive player is a joke. Deng is a very good overall player and one of the best third options in the league when you factor in his entire game.

You acted like Rose is working with some unproven offensive players. Both Deng and Boozer were putting up solid offensive numbers before Rose entered the league. Now they can't get off anything without Rose?

LOL

The Bulls don't even have a top ten offense. You act like Rose is turning water into wine by with this team offensively.

the correct answer is no.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]its not raw data. sorry.

fg% is raw. it just counts how many shots you make and miss. efg% and ts% over value threes. they don't factor in the other side of the equation. missed threes often lead to transition opportunities for the other team.

its just not a great measure. i don't mind it in some cases, but in this case its way off.
[B]
missed shots hurt. they hurt a lot more than these advanced metrics account for.[/B]

i've had this argument before. its better to look at all the raw data. ts% covers up way too much. if you just looked at ts%, the gap between players is just too small.[/QUOTE]


tbh i never really thought of it that way, but i still think ts% is very good. while a missed three could give up a fast break, a made three spaces the floor. i dont think it makes that big of a difference whether its a missed three or a missed two

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Its 1% lower. Completely inaccurate in terms of efficiency. I know you love TS%,[/QUOTE]How do you know that? I've never spoken to you before, unless you'll admit you're ginobli on a sock account for some weird reason.
[QUOTE]Deng is shooting 6% worse from the field (includes both 2s and 3s) and 2.5% worse from the ft line (on less attempts this year)....yet his TS% is only 1% lower this year.

LOL[/QUOTE]
Why are you LOLing as if you know the true margin of 1.2 TS%? If you take the same amount of shots and 1.4 of your makes is a 3 in one year and 0 in the other, it's gonna boost your efficiency because of that extra point. He's also getting to the line at a slightly better rate and the FT% differential is marginal considering the small number of attempts in the first place. And in the end it's less efficient either way..
[QUOTE] missed threes often lead to transition opportunities for the other team.[/QUOTE]
What does that have to do with how efficiently you score the ball? That's all that TS% tells you and should be used as

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]He's a third option. Nobody is claiming Deng to be a superstar.

WTF are you talking about. Jason Terry can't get his own shot against tough defense. Deng offensively is very similar to all players scoring at this number. That is part of what makes him good. He's not a wing ISO player.

Acting like he can't get his own shot at times is absurd though. Of course he's not Dirk. Nobody is saying that.

Deng played good defense back in 07 as well. I love Deng. I'm saying that pretending like Deng is some limited offensive player is a joke. Deng is a very good overall player and one of the best third options in the league when you factor in his entire game.

You acted like Rose is working with some unproven offensive players. Both Deng and Boozer were putting up solid offensive numbers before Rose entered the league. [B]Now they can't get off anything without Rose?[/B]

LOL[/QUOTE]
You just made that shit up out of your bat shit crazy mind.

I said nothing of the sort.

He needs SOMEONE to feed him the ball (not necesasrily Rose, no one is saying that only Rose can get him the ball BUT if it was Steve Nash they'd say he MADE Deng and no one would argue....but I digress).

Most of his game centers around his mid range jumpshot.

You're just like the other trolls, trying to skew an argument to make the Bulls and Bulls fans look bad.

:no:

Go Getter is completely right about Deng. Yes others are partly right too. He has always been a 17-18 PPG scorer, but he CAN NOT consistently create his own shot to the extent where running ISO's for him is beneficial for the team as a whole.

The worst part about all these posters raining there analysis of the Bulls is they haven't been watching the Bulls consistently for at the very least the last decade or so. Go Getter has, and I've known that for a while now on these boards.

Yes Deng's mid-range game is very effective. His shooting percentages were always very high because he rarely took many 3's before this season. There was a point where the Bulls organization felt Deng could be a franchise or number one/two option for there team. If anyone recalls, that was the year we took out the Heat in the first round after they won a championship, and the Bulls effectively shot down Kobe trade talks that would involve sending out Deng because we were that HIGH on Deng's up-side.

However, it became evident the next couple seasons that Deng is not the type of player that you can make the number one or two option. That is because he is not effective as a go to scorer who has to create for himself. Can he occasionally make a step back or pull up in ISO? Yes, but it would lead to a stagnant overall offense if we depended on him to do that often during a game. When Deng and Ben Gordon were the focal points of the Bulls offense, too many times you would have either or both give up a wide open shot just so they could bring it back and try to create there own shot. The offense was just plain ugly. Our offense now is a thing of beauty compared to what it was just a few years ago.

This is no knock on Deng at all. He has found the perfect niche for his play style, which is an excellent cutter, and off the ball player. The fact that he has improved his spot-up three point shot is just a testimont to how well this Bulls organization, coach, and players have managed to convince each and every player that they have a specific role to this team. Each player has embraced that, and as a result of the synergy the overall product is just so refreshing for long-time Bulls fans who have been forced to watch the out of control offenses back in the early 2000's.

[QUOTE=chazzy]How do you know that? I've never spoken to you before, unless you'll admit you're ginobli on a sock account for some weird reason.

Why are you LOLing as if you know the true margin of 1.2 TS%? If you take the same amount of shots and 1.4 of your makes is a 3 in one year and 0 in the other, it's gonna boost your efficiency because of that extra point. He's also getting to the line at a slightly better rate and the FT% differential is marginal considering the small number of attempts in the first place. And in the end it's less efficient either way..[/QUOTE]

What?

Deng averaged 4.4 free throws in 37.5 minutes in 07.
Deng is averaging 4.2 free throws in in 39.2 minutes this year.

How is that getting to the line at a better rate? Please answer.

Like I said before, TS% is fine in some cases. In other cases, like this one, its totally misleading.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]What?

Deng averaged 4.4 free throws in 37.5 minutes in 07.
Deng is averaging 4.2 free throws in in 39.2 minutes this year.

How is that getting to the line at a better rate? Please answer.

Like I said before, TS% is fine in some cases. In other cases, like this one, its totally misleading.[/QUOTE]
Minutes have nothing to do with efficiency, he's getting to the line at a slightly better rate relative to his FGA.

[QUOTE=chips93]again good point, things i hadnt considered, i would disagree with the bolded tho. and broken down play is essentially the same as shot clock situation.[/QUOTE]
Not exactly.

When a play breaks down the spacing and timing gets off course then sometimes it is necessary for a player to take things into his own hands.

Creating a good shot out of nothing is an art, a skill, and very few players can do that at this level.

[QUOTE=chazzy]Minutes have nothing to do with efficiency, he's getting to the line at a slightly better rate relative to his FGA.[/QUOTE]

LOL

Being on the floor longer leads to more opportunities to be fouled. Another flawed way of thinking. You don't have to shoot to get to the ft line.