Printable View
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]was referring mostly to the playoff series when Dirk dropped 33/16 per game on the best defensive PF ever and swept him out of the playoffs. While KG played great too that series, to me it cemented him not being better than Dirk in any way, shape or form.[/QUOTE]
Than you should have said that and not "Always" which something totally different.
You should have said "Dirk was better than KG the only time I remember them going to head to head."
[QUOTE=chazzy]How much do you guys factor in head to head play when evaluating two players? If one player outplays another in their matchups, but the other player is better against everyone else.. what do you take away from that?[/QUOTE]
Head to head should not be a huge factor unless its two players that play the same position playing each other many many times throughout their careers.
In the case of Dirk and KG is almost useless. The only thing the 02 series should show is that KG was not on "another level" than Dirk. That is all. Nothing more should be read into a 3 game series.
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]was referring mostly to the playoff series when Dirk dropped 33/16 per game on the best defensive PF ever and swept him out of the playoffs. While KG played great too that series, to me it cemented him not being better than Dirk in any way, shape or form.[/QUOTE]
Cherry picking much?[B] Thats 3 games sample[/B], with KG having 24.0/18.7/5.0 and dropping 31/18/4/2/3 game and still losing to better team.
When we check bigger sample of prime vs prime, KG outplayed Dirk very often, and thats before we get to part where KG is elite defensive anchor, and Dirk anchors... what? Its easier to just focus on scoring than to play both ends of the floor. So how does that translate to "I can't give the nod to KG because [B]Dirk always outplayed him head-to-head[/B]" :rolleyes:
You can as well pick samples of games where Dirk burned Duncan, or Amare did the same, Duncan is no longer better than them either? Think about it for a second.
[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Than you should have said that and not "Always" which something totally different.
You should have said "Dirk was better than KG the only time I remember them going to head to head."[/QUOTE]
What happens in the playoffs certainly is the most relevant head-to-head sample we can get. Seriously, who cares about head-to-head in the regular season? Does anyone know whether Hakeem had better stats than DRob in the regular season? Only thing everyone knows is that Hakeem punked him when they met in the playoffs. Same as Dirk with KG. KG flamed out at home with a 22 points 9/19 FG 6 TO performance that series while Dirk had 39 on 11/17 FG with only 3 TO (and as many steals). That was pre-prime Dirk vs prime KG.
Before KG went to Boston, he had 6 games out of 47 where he shot better than 50% from the field. He had 8 shooting worse than 40%...
He's a great player, no doubt, but he can't carry his team on his back offensively like Dirk, and this is the biggest asset your star player can have.
[QUOTE=Scoooter]I want Kblaze to get in here and lay some truth down on Karl Malone.[/QUOTE]
Kblaze is a known Malone hater. All of his arguments involve off the court stuff about Karl. Nothing to do with how he played. Pretty sure Kblaze has daddy issues.
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]What happens in the playoffs certainly is the most relevant head-to-head sample we can get. Seriously, who cares about head-to-head in the regular season? Does anyone know whether Hakeem had better stats than DRob in the regular season? Only thing everyone knows is that Hakeem punked him when they met in the playoffs. Same as Dirk with KG. KG flamed out at home with a 22 points 9/19 FG 6 TO performance that series while Dirk had 39 on 11/17 FG with only 3 TO (and as many steals). That was pre-prime Dirk vs prime KG.
Before KG went to Boston, he had 6 games out of 47 where he shot better than 50% from the field. He had 8 shooting worse than 40%...
He's a great player, no doubt, but he can't carry his team on his back offensively like Dirk, and this is the biggest asset your star player can have.[/QUOTE]
Again, basing which player is better by few cherry picked games only, even if its Playoffs, is not very bright. Lets pick MVP Dirk 1st seed being swepped by 8th seed Warriors and conclude he is a bad player and a choker. Garnett never lost in the Playoffs when his team was favorite. Dirk? Many times. Stick has two ends, if you want to cherry pick basing on few games.
[QUOTE=Harison]Again, basing which player is better by few cherry picked games only, even if its Playoffs, is not very bright. Lets pick MVP Dirk 1st seed being swepped by 8th seed Warriors and conclude he is a bad player and a choker. Garnett never lost in the Playoffs when his team was favorite. Dirk? Many times. Stick has two ends, if you want to cherry pick basing on few games.[/QUOTE]
Many times?
The Mavs under achieved twice technically. 07 losing to the warriors and 10 losing to the spurs.
Every other year the Mavs went farther than expected or lost when expected.
:facepalm
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]What happens in the playoffs certainly is the most relevant head-to-head sample we can get. Seriously, who cares about head-to-head in the regular season? Does anyone know whether Hakeem had better stats than DRob in the regular season? Only thing everyone knows is that Hakeem punked him when they met in the playoffs. Same as Dirk with KG. KG flamed out at home with a 22 points 9/19 FG 6 TO performance that series while Dirk had 39 on 11/17 FG with only 3 TO (and as many steals). That was pre-prime Dirk vs prime KG.
Before KG went to Boston, he had 6 games out of 47 where he shot better than 50% from the field. He had 8 shooting worse than 40%...
He's a great player, no doubt, but he can't carry his team on his back offensively like Dirk, and this is the biggest asset your star player can have.[/QUOTE]
This (to me) is what makes these all-time discussions interesting. Is it the getting there (say to the NBA Finals) or is it the carrying the team in game 7s/crunch situation? Do you prefer the defense from KG (which Dirk has gotten from Chandler this year) or the clutchness of Dirk in crunch times?
As I've watched this year's playoffs from Randolph to Dirk to Lebron, it seems to me that it's the ability to come through in the clutch that's more important as the team's defense can be had in other (lesser) players. The team that has the most (unstoppable) player is usually the one that wins.
It makes me appreciate how very special it is to have players that deliver both and why (historically) dominant two-way big men have been the foundation of the majority of championships.
To the poster who has McHale as #2, sure his post moves are great but he never had to carry a team or be the focal point of a team the way the other PFs have.
:oldlol: Now Dirk a top 5 PF of all time. He mustve played very well last night.
Oh wait.
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]What happens in the playoffs certainly is the most relevant head-to-head sample we can get. Seriously, who cares about head-to-head in the regular season?[/QUOTE]
Well again, you said always. But obviously you'd rather be wrong and not admit it than just learn something.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Many times?
The Mavs under achieved twice technically. 07 losing to the warriors and 10 losing to the spurs.
Every other year the Mavs went farther than expected or lost when expected.
:facepalm[/QUOTE]
DMAVS41, don't you think that they were favored to win in 06? The West (Mavs, Suns, Spurs) was so much stronger than the East. I'm pretty confident that if Spurs had gotten past DAL in 06, they would have beaten the HEAT (had Bowen to guard Wade and TD, Rasho and Nazr to guard Shaq).
[QUOTE=Skep]Kblaze is a known Malone hater. All of his arguments involve off the court stuff about Karl. Nothing to do with how he played. Pretty sure Kblaze has daddy issues.[/QUOTE]
I know, it's delightful. :applause:
[QUOTE=rmt]DMAVS41, don't you think that they were favored to win in 06? The West (Mavs, Suns, Spurs) was so much stronger than the East. I'm pretty confident that if Spurs had gotten past DAL in 06, they would have beaten the HEAT (had Bowen to guard Wade and TD, Rasho and Nazr to guard Shaq).[/QUOTE]
I'm talking about over-achieving as a whole.
Meaning.....they grossly over achieved just to beat the spurs. That is my problem.
Its like making the finals and upsetting the spurs as huge underdogs is now more of a negative against the mavs than a positive because of what happened in the finals.
the truth is that the mavs had no business making the finals that year.
That is my point.
Dirk over Karl Malone?
nah.
Sir Charles is clearly the best pf of all time, the only advantage Duncan had over chuck was defense, plus he played center for most of his career.
[QUOTE=iggy>]Sir Charles is clearly the best pf of all time, the only advantage Duncan had over chuck was defense, plus he played center for most of his career.[/QUOTE]
Duncan's defense was WAAAY better though
dont forget winning, clutch, sacrificing, post game, ect
[QUOTE=iggy>]Sir Charles is clearly the best pf of all time, [B]the only advantage Duncan had over chuck was [U]defense[/U][/B], plus he played center for most of his career.[/QUOTE]
Defense is half of the game.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm talking about over-achieving as a whole.
Meaning.....they grossly over achieved just to beat the spurs. That is my problem.
Its like making the finals and upsetting the spurs as huge underdogs is now more of a negative against the mavs than a positive because of what happened in the finals.
the truth is that the mavs had no business making the finals that year.
That is my point.[/QUOTE]
Well, if it's any consolation to you - that Mavs 06 series and Dirk, in particular, turned Pop to small ball and away from a 7 footer beside TD. He got rid of Rasho, Nazr, Ratliff + Splitter on the bench in favor of Oberto, Dice, Bonner and Blair.:banghead:
[B]In the Paint and In The Mid Range
Barkley Season: 21.6 PPG on 12.9 Two-Point FGAs PG at 58.13% Two-Point FG%
Barkley Play-Offs: 22.5 PPG on 14.5 Two-Point FGAs PG at 55.13% Two-Point FG%
Barkley was too good offensively compared to any player[/B]
Four words for this thread: Prisoners of the moment.
If Dirk does not perform to the standard he has set in the OKC series and Dallas ends up losing, everybody will forget they ever considered ranking Dirk ahead of Malone/Barkley/KG and things will go back to normal.
:roll: :roll:
[QUOTE=CJ Mustard]Four words for this thread: Prisoners of the moment.
If Dirk does not perform to the standard he has set in the OKC series and Dallas ends up losing, everybody will forget they ever considered ranking Dirk ahead of Malone/Barkley/KG and things will go back to normal.
:roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]
[B]Rings don`t matter at all when u talk about Dominant Players
Barkley and Malone where dominant. Dirk is highly skilled for a 7footer but he aint dominant[/B]
[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Rings don`t matter at all when u talk about Dominant Players
Barkley and Malone where dominant. Dirk is highly skilled for a 7footer but he aint dominant[/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly.
The whole notion that if a certain player wins a title, he automatically jumps players who were very clearly better players at their peak is completely ridiculous.
[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Rings don`t matter at all when u talk about Dominant Players
Barkley and Malone where dominant. Dirk is highly skilled for a 7footer but he aint dominant[/B][/QUOTE]
you cannot be serious if you think that Dirk is not dominant. He's one of the most efficient offensive players of all time (considering shooting percentages and turnovers) and one of the best and most consistent 4th quarter scorers of his generation.
What else constitutes dominance?
Not saying Dirk has be ranked above Barkley, Malone or KG (Timmy is a no brainer, obviously), but to call him not dominant? :roll:
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]you cannot be serious if you think that Dirk is not dominant. He's one of the most efficient offensive players of all time (considering shooting percentages and turnovers) and one of the best and most consistent 4th quarter scorers of his generation.
What else constitutes dominance?[/QUOTE]
[B]He cant rebound like Barkley or Malone
He can`t score in the Paint like Barkley or Malone
He can`t pass like Barkley or Create like Barkley
He is an on Ok shot blocker not in the level of Barkley
He can`t steal like Barkley or Malone`s quick hands
He can`t finish when driving like Barkley or Malone etc
He is a dominant scorer but thats not dominant. Dominant has to be alteast in 3-4 areas[/B]
[QUOTE=CJ Mustard]Exactly.
The whole notion that if a certain player wins a title, he automatically jumps players who were very clearly better players at their peak is completely ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Who other than Duncan is clearly better than Nowitzki? Nowitzki is an MVP and 11x NBA teamer.
Look at his teammates right now. If Nowitzki wins a title with this lackluster cast, sweeping a perennial and still prime Lakers championship team, the Durant/Westbrook Thunder (who could very well turn into a championship team themselves) and the "Heatles" along the way that is an incredibly impressive feat. I'm not saying it will happen, frankly I don't think so, but if he does? Impressive. More impressive than [I][U]anything[/U][/I] Barkley/Malone/KG have ever achieved. So you guys are saying: "Ignore this, it doesn't matter, take a look at these stats."?
Preposterous. :roll:
1)Duncan
2)Barkley
3)Malone
4)Garnett
5)McHale
Dirk right now is 6th, IMO. He surpasses McHale at the very least with a ring.
McHale is so fcking overrated.
[QUOTE=TylerOO]McHale is so fcking overrated.[/QUOTE]
Tell that to Larry Bird. Even Bird acknowledged McHale was a key player. McHale was one of the best post defenders of all-time. A ton of post moves under the hoop, great defender, and good outside shooter.
I'm ready to accept Dirk as the best offensive PF of all-time. He scores in a way that is more effective than anyone else because it always comes in the context of the team (and in situations where the game slows down, he is still unstoppable on one on one isos). The fact that he is a threat from everywhere on the floor makes it a lot easier for his teammates to do their thing, and this is something he does by not even touching the ball, just through the threat of his shooting ability (better than everyone else ever at this position, so yes this is a unique thing to get from your PF). His decision making and passing have been amazing imo, makes the right play for everything the defense throws at him and knows when to take a step back for his teammates. I honestly don't care what the numbers say, I know McHale had the most efficient 25+ ppg season ever, Barkley had crazy offensive stats in the 80s (which overstated his true offensive ability imo because he did a lot of work on the offensive glass/fast break, and as the 90s went on his shot selection got worse and worse), the way Dirk gets his is just better for the team.
but as for as top 3 PFs, for me at least it's like:
1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Malone/Barkley and possibly Dirk if he ends this year the right way
typical ISH, completely ignoring everything but Offense. Prime Duncan or Malone would man-handle Dirk.
[QUOTE=LJJ]
Look at his teammates right now. If Nowitzki wins a title with this[B] lackluster cast[/B], sweeping a perennial and still prime Lakers championship team, the Durant/Westbrook Thunder (who could very well turn into a championship team themselves) and the "Heatles" along the way that is an incredibly impressive feat. I'm not saying it will happen, frankly I don't think so, but if he does? Impressive. More impressive than [I][U]anything[/U][/I] Barkley/Malone/KG have ever achieved. So you guys are saying: "Ignore this, it doesn't matter, take a look at these stats."?
Preposterous. :roll:[/QUOTE]
You have got to be ****ing kidding me. Dallas has very good players in nearly all positions and a solid solid bench.
There just isn't a logical case for Dirk above Barkley or Malone, and it'd be awfully hard to put him over Hayes. Doesn't matter if he wins or not, he's just plain not as good as those guys.
[QUOTE=joshwake]You have got to be ****ing kidding me. Dallas has very good players in nearly all positions and a solid solid bench.[/QUOTE]
Nonsense.
Old ass 38yo Jason Kidd
Shawn Marion - At least 4 years removed from anything remotely resembling a "prime"
Jason Terry - Old, pretty solid starter, but nothing special as a 2nd option
Tyson Chandler - Solid big body. Send away for free at the start of this season
Stojakovic - Broken. His first time being relevant since 06.
Barea - Solid bench guard, nowhere near starter quality
Haywood/Stevenson - decent defensive bench pawns.
As a supporting cast? It fits Nowitzki pretty good, but compared to 'championship supporting casts' in recent history they are worthless scrubs. This ain't no Gasol/Bynum/roleplayers. This ain't no Garnett/Allen/Rondo/Perkins/solid bench. Those supporting casts are waaay better, this supporting cast is not remotely championship material.
[QUOTE=magnax1]There just isn't a logical case for Dirk above Barkley or Malone, and [B]it'd be awfully hard to put him over Hayes[/B]. Doesn't matter if he wins or not, he's just plain not as good as those guys.[/QUOTE]
I always lol at people who fit Hayes into these top 5 PF talks. He was known as the biggest choker of his generation, had a lot of chemistry killing moments with his team and his adjusted stats aren't even that impressive when compared to all the other all-time PF legends (career 49 TS% which is god awful from a PF, not a single season where his PER was over 20).
[B]The Best Offensive PF is by far Charles Barkley, won`t even go into how he dominated the Mid Range and Post Play at almos Shaq like Efficiency
Dirk is 2nd in that aspect as scorer but Garnett and Webber where also better creators and passers than Dirk.
Dirk is one dimensional: a pure scorer[/B]
[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]The Best Offensive PF is by far Charles Barkley, won`t even go into how he dominated the Mid Range and Post Play at almos Shaq like Efficiency
Dirk is 2nd in that aspect as scorer but Garnett and Webber where also better creators and passers than Dirk.
Dirk is one dimensional: a pure scorer[/B][/QUOTE]
Webber was also a very average defender. He put up the numbers, but much of it was empty.
[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]The Best Offensive PF is by far Charles Barkley, won`t even go into how he dominated the Mid Range and Post Play at almos Shaq like Efficiency
Dirk is 2nd in that aspect as scorer but Garnett and Webber where also better creators and passers than Dirk.
Dirk is one dimensional: a pure scorer[/B][/QUOTE]
that's simply wrong. I doubt that there has ever been a PF you could run your entire offense through better than Dirk. You don't even need a good PG for your offense to work. His pure presence on the court opens up opportunities for his teammates, not to mention that he's probably the best pick and roll big man to ever play the game.
[QUOTE=D.J.]Webber was also a very average defender. He put up the numbers, but much of it was empty.[/QUOTE]
[B]Webber was a Better than Dirk as a Total Player
I do say that Dirk is probably the Greatest Shooting 7footer Ever
One of the Clutchest Evers
But he did not dominate like that of Barkley, Malone, Garnett or Duncan in more areas of the game
If he wins 10 rings i am not going to put him over those dudes because as simple as it is: they where better total players
I also consider Kevin McHale Better
Hayes Better
Petit Better
He is the Top 7-10 GOAT Pfs though[/B]
McHale :oldlol: I'm done with this. We're talking about a career 6th man/1 time All-NBA-teamer who never was the #1 option on his team, heck, never had [I]his[/I] team.