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[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Actually, I remember thinking he was padding his rebounding numbers during game 6 vs Boston in 2010 in particular. Haven't seen the game since, but I'll have to keep more of an eye on that next time I watch that game.[/QUOTE]
He was flying in from halfcourt to grab missed opposing FTs over teammates. I couldn't believe his final statline when the game was over :oldlol:
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]:facepalm Didn't Wilt average 11.7 ****ing ppg in the '69 finals after averaging over 20 during the '69 season?
Wow, Wilt improved the Lakers from a 52-30 team that lost in the finals to a 55-27 team that lost in the finals....what an impact! :bowdown:
And that 3 game improvement came with West playing 10 more games in '69 than '68. That improvement is STAGGERING.
I've said this many times, but it's funny how you keep bringing up the Lakers falling from 60-22 to 47-35 after Wilt retired [B]without mentioning that West went from playing 69 games in '73 to 31 in '74. [/B][/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll:
Wilt averaging 11.7 in the Finals (and probably on well over 55%...since he shot 50% against Thurmond in a previous round)..along with being the BEST rebounder in the series at 25 rpg!
How about that "improvement?" Wilt was TRADED for THREE players, and then the Lakers lost HOFer Goodrich in the expansion draft. So, Wilt effectively replaced [B]42 ppg and 18 rpg[/B] (with only Johnny Egan and his measley 8 ppg and blown game four of the Finals as the other replacement) . West also missed 20 games in the '69 season...so with ALL of that, the Lakers set a franchise record with a 55-27 record. I also found this VERY fascinating. In Wilt's last season in Philadelphia, he took a team that was DEVASTATED by injuries, to a game seven, four loss to the Celtics in the ECF's. He was "traded" to the Lakers...and how did his replacements perform in the post-season in Philly? They averaged 36 ppg and 20 rpg on .510 shooting...and yet, Boston blew them out in the first round, 4-1. Think about that...Wilt averaged 12 ppg and 25 rpg in the Finals, and yet the Lakers STILL lost a game seven by TWO points (and with Wilt missing the last 5-6 minutes.) His IMPACT was STAGGERING.
Of course, looking at Wilt's ENTIRE career, in comparison to West's, is simply a ROUT. Wilt took FAR less talented teama further early in his career, than a West-Baylor combo could together (and both of those players are generally ranked in the top-20 BTW.) THEN, when Wilt finally had a semblance of surrounding talent, he took his teams to the BEST RECORD in the league in his three full seasons in Philadelphia (as well as taking a 40-40 76er team to a game seven, ONE point loss to the HOF-laden and 62-18 Celtics in the '65 ECF's...while West could only watch as the Celtics crushed his team in the Finals, 4-1.)
Wilt not only DRAMATICALLY improved EVERY team he joined...EVERY team he left became MUCH worse...especially over the course of their next SEVERAL seasons. EVERY team he joined set a TEAM RECORD for W-L (and in fact, TWO of them are STILL team recordsa with the Sixers and Lakers.) And EVERY team he left either missed the playoffs altogether...or were eliminated 4-1 and 4-1 in the FIRST ROUND of the playoffs.)
Once again, as great as West was, and he is certainly top-15, his career PALES in comparison to Wilt's.
[QUOTE=jlauber]:roll: :roll:
Wilt averaging 11.7 in the Finals (and probably on well over 55%...since he shot 50% against Thurmond in a previous round)..along with being the BEST rebounder in the series at 25 rpg!
How about that "improvement?" Wilt was TRADED for THREE players, and then the Lakers lost HOFer Goodrich in the expansion draft. So, Wilt effectively replaced [B]42 ppg and 18 rpg[/B] (with only Johnny Egan and his measley 8 ppg and blown game four of the Finals as the other replacement) . West also missed 20 games in the '69 season...so with ALL of that, the Lakers set a franchise record with a 55-27 record. I also found this VERY fascinating. In Wilt's last season in Philadelphia, he took a team that was DEVASTATED by injuries, to a game seven, four loss to the Celtics in the ECF's. He was "traded" to the Lakers...and how did his replacements perform in the post-season in Philly? They averaged 36 ppg and 20 rpg on .510 shooting...and yet, Boston blew them out in the first round, 4-1. Think about that...Wilt averaged 12 ppg and 25 rpg in the Finals, and yet the Lakers STILL lost a game seven by TWO points (and with Wilt missing the last 5-6 minutes.) His IMPACT was STAGGERING.
Of course, looking at Wilt's ENTIRE career, in comparison to West's, is simply a ROUT. Wilt took FAR less talented teama further early in his career, than a West-Baylor combo could together (and both of those players are generally ranked in the top-20 BTW.) THEN, when Wilt finally had a semblance of surrounding talent, he took his teams to the BEST RECORD in the league in his three full seasons in Philadelphia (as well as taking a 40-40 76er team to a game seven, ONE point loss to the HOF-laden and 62-18 Celtics in the '65 ECF's...while West could only watch as the Celtics crushed his team in the Finals, 4-1.)
Wilt not only DRAMATICALLY improved EVERY team he joined...EVERY team he left became MUCH worse...especially over the course of their next SEVERAL seasons. EVERY team he joined set a TEAM RECORD for W-L (and in fact, TWO of them are STILL team recordsa with the Sixers and Lakers.) And EVERY team he left either missed the playoffs altogether...or were eliminated 4-1 and 4-1 in the FIRST ROUND of the playoffs.)
Once again, as great as West was, and he is certainly top-15, his career PALES in comparison to Wilt's.[/QUOTE]
Still not addressing my point about you always bringing up the 13 game decline from '73 to '74 without mentioning that West went from playing 69 games to 31? I didn't expect you to, you'll probably always use the same walls of misleading text when someone calls you on something.
[QUOTE=Fatal9]His rebounding average has always been overrated. He's the king of cleaning up easy rebounds on the defensive glass. His offensive rebound numbers (the rebounds you actually have to fight for) have always been pathetic. Rose had more offensive rebounds than him this season, same with Westbrook, Rondo etc etc...fukk Steve Nash in his prime was almost getting as many as LeBron does. Took the dude over two freaking weeks to grab his first offensive rebound this season.[/QUOTE]
I didn't know about those offensive rebound numbers, but yea that's crazy. Guy stat pads a lot of things. FG% too as we saw as recently as the NBA Finals.
Kobe is number 1
BEAN!
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Still not addressing my point about you always bringing up the 13 game decline from '73 to '74 without mentioning that West went from playing 69 games to 31? I didn't expect you to, you'll probably always use the same walls of [B]misleading text [/B]when someone calls you on something.[/QUOTE]
YOU are the one that is the master of mis-leading information. You and Fatal9 with your blatant anti-Wilt agenda, even though I have consistently BLOWN-UP EVERY single argument you two have conjured up. It amazes me that you two morons can rank Hakeem, who was a career first round loser (EIGHT times in 15 post-seasons), who only played on five 50+ win teams in 18 seasons (and never a 60 win team), and only four Conference finalists, and only three finals...in 18 seasons...and with FAR less accolades and statistical achievements, over a Wilt who took TWELVE teams to the Conference Finals, SIX to the Finals, as well as FOUR teams to the best record in the league, and FOUR teams with 60+ wins...in his 14 seasons. Of course, Wilt also had a 4-1 edge in MVPs (and it SHOULD have been as many as SEVEN ... in '62 for sure, '69, and '72.) And, of course, the RECORD BOOK CLEARLY ranks Wilt MILES ahead of Hakeem, too.
THAT is pure GARBAGE the two of you constantly spew on this forum.
Who inspired jlauber to come in here along with his guy "PHILA"?
Absolute thread KILLERS.
:facepalm
lots of fail in this list. but its to be expected from anything that bruce blitz spews :facepalm
[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]Who inspired jlauber to come in here along with his guy "PHILA"?
Absolute thread KILLERS.
:facepalm[/QUOTE]
Blame your boy ShaqAttack...who once again could not resist the urge to take a swing at Chamberlain..."who did not show up" in the '69 Finals...except to the point of outplaying HOFer Russell, and by leading BOTH teams in rebounds.
The same ShaqAttack that has Hakeem and Bird in his top-5, and Russell at #9, and Wilt at #10. Hakeem won two titles. Who did he beat? He beat the Knicks in seven games in '94, and the Magic in '95. Let's see...where was MJ in '94? Oh, and how many HOFers were on the Knicks and Magic? Meanwhile, in Wilt's first TEN seasons, he played in a league in which the greatest dynasty in professional team sports resided. A Celtic team that had anywhere from FIVE to NINE HOFers (and a HOF coach) in those ten seasons. In his last four seasons, Chamberlain faced the Knicks, and their FOUR HOFers in '70. Then, in '71, he faced the Kareem-Oscar Bucks (66-16) without BOTH Baylor and West. Then he BEAT that same 63-19 Bucks team the very next season, as well as the Knicks and their FIVE HOFers in the Finals. And in his last season, he again faced the Knicks and their SIX HOFers.
Bird and Hakeem's career's were LIGHT YEARS behind Wilt's.
Jlauber to be fair, you seem to carry an anti-Kareem, anti-Bird agenda yourself. Most definitely where Olajuwon is concerned as well.
[QUOTE=Bring-Your-Js]Jlauber to be fair, you seem to carry an anti-Kareem, anti-Bird agenda yourself. Most definitely where Olajuwon is concerned as well.[/QUOTE]
I have been brutally honest with all three of those guys. I have Kareem at #5, Hakeem at #9 and Bird at #10. However, I have said it many times, I have no problem with those that move Kobe (who I have at #8) around with Hakeem and Bird. I also have Shaq at #6, which is generally HIGHER than most all-time lists.
I tend to look at the ENTIRE body of work. Personal awards, statistical achievements (in BOTH the regular season and post season), and team success. However, regarding TEAM success...a player only has some much control of what teammates he is has, and how they perform. Furthermore,...and this is HUGE...is just how the player performed against his peers. Russell was the greatest "winner" in major professional sports history, and he is #1 on MY all-time list because of that. BUT, those that actually watched, or studied the careers of Russell and Wilt, would attest to the fact that Chamberlain not only outplayed Russell in the vast majority of their H2H games, there were MANY in which Chamberlain just CRUSHED Russell. Here again, Russell had an OVERWHELMING edge in surrounding talent for the first six years of their decade-long battles, and at the very least, a marginal edge in the last four. Then, Wilt had to endure decimating injuries to not only his teammates, but to himself, as well as teammates choking in big games, and incompetent coaching. And, with all of that, Wilt came within an eyelash of beating Russell's "dynasty" FOUR times (losing four game seven's by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.) Add in the horrible officiating in game five of the '70 Finals, and Wilt was at the very edge of winning FIVE more rings. And the bottom line...he was never outplayed in any of his 29 post-season series, and in the vast majority of them, he pounded his opposing center. Not even Kareem can make that claim (he was outplayed in SEVERAL...including two H2H's with a well-past his prime Wilt.)
IMO, Bird is generally over-rated. He only won three rings, with LOADED rosters, and even in one of those, he was not even the best player on his own team (and it came against a 40-42 team in the Finals.) He had SEVERAL poor shooting post-seasons, and in fact, his post-season shooting was below average in his career, and his Finals' shooting was well-below the league average. And I have found it fascinating that in Bird's three best statistical regular seasons, he played MUCH worse in the those post-seasons.
Hakeem is the most over-rated player on ISH. His entire legacy was built on two playoff runs, and in one of those, the actual best player in the league did not play. Furthermore, those that claim that he did not have much help...take a look at the team's that his Rockets beat in the '94 and '95 Finals. Ewing's Knicks had no more surrounding talent than Hakeem's Rockets, and Shaq's Magic were marginally better (and IMO, Hakeem did not outplay Shaq, either.) Hakeem played in 18 seasons. In only five did he even win 50+ games (and never more than 58.) His team's managed to make it to the conference Finals, FOUR times, and to only THREE Finals. My god, his team's were eliminated in the first round, EIGHT times in 15 post-seasons. One MVP, and only a couple of statistical titles.
Kareem is tough for me. At his best, he was as talented as anyone that has ever played the game. BUT, two scoring titles, one rebounding title, and one FG% title in his 20 years (my god, Wilt had THREE seasons in which he led the NBA in all three of those categories...in the SAME season.) And before Magic arrived, Kareem's career was considered a disappointment. He had TEN prime seasons, and only Finals, and only ONE ring (and even that was questionable, since it came against a 41-41 Warrior team, a 48-34 Laker team that was without BOTH West and Baylor, and then a 42-40 Bullet team in the Finals.) He played on two team's with the best record in the league in the 70's that did not win titles (and one of them was swept in the WCF's.) He also played on two more 60+ win teams that were knocked off in the playoffs, one of them in the first round by a 47-35 Warrior team. He was outplayed in a game seven, and at home, by Dave Cowens. He was outplayed by Thrumond in '72 and neutralized by Nate in '73. Wilt, a year removed from major knee surgery and well-past his prime, battled him to a statistical draw in '71. And then, Wilt outplayed him the very next season.
And consider this...Kareem won that lone title in the decade of the 70's..in league's where a 48-34 Warrior team (and with only one super-star) won a title. Or the 49-33 Blazers (who swept Kareem's 53-29 Lakers en route to the title.) Or a 52-30 Sonics team that routed Kareem's loaded Lakers in '79 (and also romped over them in '78.) And even a 44-38 Bullets team won a title (and in that season, Kareem had Norm Nixon, Jamaal Wilkes, Lou Hudson, and Adrian Dantley.) And I always found it fascinating that Kareem copuld play 44.2 mpg on a 63-19 Bucks team in '72, and yet he could only play 41.2 mpg on a 40-42 Lakers team in '76. And, BTW, he averaged 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting in '72 (on a team that had a +11.1 ppg differential), and yet when the Lakers needed him to produce in '76, his numbers dropped to 27.7 ppg and .529 shooting. Also interesting was the fact that Rick Barry could win a title with Wilkes as his second best player, while Kareem's Lakers were blown out in the first and second rounds with a more-prime Wilkes as his second best teammate (and once again, in leagues where the champions went 52-30 and 44-38.)
As for Magic's impact...well, before Magic arrived, Kareem's Lakers were 40-42, 53-29, 45-37, and 47-35, and all were wiped out in the playoffs (and TWICE by Sonics team's with ONE borderline HOF player.) Magic immediately took the Lakers to a 60-22 record, and a title in his ROOKIE season. Furthermore, Magic led the Lakers to that title, with one of the greatest Finals performances ever in a memorable game six win on the road...and with Kareem at home. Magic outvoted Kareem in the MVP balloting in EIGHT of their ten seasons together (the last eight BTW.) He won three Finals MVP's in those ten seasons (Kareem won one) and he SHOULD have won yet another in '88 (when Worthy won it.) And speaking of the '88 Finals, the Lakers won that title DESPITE the AWFUL play of Kareem. And I have maintained that the '87 Lakers would probably have won a title without Kareem, as well. Furthermore, Magic was injured in game two of the '89 Finals, and Kareem's Lakers were swept. And Kareem was outplayed by Moses in the '81 playoffs, and then pounded by him in '83. Not only that, but AFTER Kareem retired, the Lakser IMPROVED from 57-25 to a 63-19 record. And then Magic took that injured and over-the-hill Laker team to a 58-24 record, and yet another Finals the very next season. Of course, Magic retired, and the Lakers immediately fell to seasons of 43-39 and then an even worse 39-43...which is about what they were with Kareem, and PRE-Magic.