The Finals really ruined lebron - i mean just before the finals...

[QUOTE=Doranku]Probably because he didn't quit in the second round[/quote]

Myth.

He played one weird half, nothing more.

[quote]and he didn't have any 40 win teams to inflate his stats like LeBron did.[/quote]

Believe me, you'd rather have LeBron face Chicago than ******* like Utah and Phoenix who couldn't guard a chair. LeBron's numbers would be better against those teams.

[quote]lol @ Kobe faring "much worse". Kobe was averaging 33 points on 45% through 5 games[/quote]

The ****? :oldlol:. He averaged 30 ppg on 42% shooting through the first 5 games.

[quote]and then his game 7 tanked his stats.[/quote]

Uhh, no. He was inefficient the entire series, and never more so than with the game on the line. Gong 11-40(28%) in the 4th qtrs of the series.

[quote]LeBron, meanwhile, was terrible in games 4-6 of the series after the Cavs had a 2-1 lead w/ homecourt advantage.[/quote]

He had 2 bad games the entire series in Game 4 & 5. Still finished the series with much better numbers across the board than Kobe. If he wasn't stuck with a sh!t cast, he would have beaten Boston - like he did this year, despite being far from the player he was last year.

[quote]Game 6 is a prime example of empty stats.[/quote]

Just because Cleveland lost? Empty stats are ones that don't really impact the game. LeBron's 27/19/10 was the ONLY reason Game 6 was even competitive.

[QUOTE=Indian guy]:oldlol:

How does any run by Kobe match LeBron's in 2010? 29/9/8/FG% .500/TS% .610/PER 29 > is better than Kobe in the years you listed. Don't tell me how LeBron was average in the Boston series. Kobe fared much worse against them a round later.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z270/IK2121/TI.gif[/IMG]

The 2010 Bulls had a 105.0 DRTG (11th). 2010 Jazz were better defensively.

:facepalm

:oldlol: at IndianGuy arguing that Lebron's game 6 vs Boston was good. At no point did he seem to take control of that game. And if you're going to post the stats, why not include the 9 turnovers, or the 8/21 shooting(38%) or 51 TS%.

Those stats at least start to explain how a 27/19/10 game could be so empty, but it goes beyond that if you watch the game.

He played very well in games 1 and 3, iirc, was mediocre in game 2 and sucked the last 3 games. So 2 good games in a series that lasted 6 games? Kobe was easily better vs Boston.

[QUOTE=WeGetRing2012]Thats just not true. As he come up short during some runs yeah but most players have. But you know without a doubt that he gave 110% at all times. There is no way you can get 5 rings as a main guy without being great when your team needs you the most. Can you say the same about Lebron? Hell no. When it gets tough for him he just quits and heading into his 9th year and still playing like this is not Kobe-like,Jordan-Like, or Greatest basketball player-like.[/QUOTE]

I am not questioning Kobe's effort. Not at all.

I'm simply stating the fact that Kobe has had his fair share of playoff letdowns. Which is true by the way.

Plenty of them. 03, 04, 06, 08, and 11.....

And Kobe didn't get 5 rings as the main guy. He got 2. No need to revise history.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]

First of all, Lebron completely choking or quitting(was convinced he quit at first, but after this year's finals, I'm not so sure) in 3 consecutive games severely hurts his playoff run.[/quote]

This is a MYTH. Watch the games, not Dan Gilbert's mouth. The only weird thing about LeBron's series against Boston is the first half of Game 5, nothing more. Watch those games, and prove me otherwise.

It's funny how the "quit" accusation was always over Game 5, but after Gilbert's rant, it suddenly became 3 straight games. People's inability to think for themselves never ceases to amazes me.

[quote]More importantly, it's much more difficult to maintain that through a run to the finals than 2 series.[/quote]

Based on what? Just the past season LeBron's best series came in the ECF(against the #1 ranked D), and '10 LeBron >> '09 LeBron anyway. No reason why he wouldn't have maintained/improved his play. Especially considering that after Boston, the opponents were only going to get weaker defensively.

[quote]plus Kobe's series vs Boston was clearly superior to Lebron's[/quote]

There isn't a single metric out there that supports this. Not raw numbers, not PER, not EFF or heck, even tbe holy clutch numbers. Kobe was just brutal late in games in the Finals.

[quote]I don't give a f[SIZE="2"]u[/SIZE]ck what the stats are.[/quote]

Yeah, why bother with something called facts :rolleyes:

[quote]When you have 3 consecutive games like Lebron did to end that series, it makes the stats pretty irrelevant.[/QUOTE]

A great player is allowed to have off nights. A couple of games don't negate your entire body of work, and LeBron's in 2010 was pretty darn impressive. In fact, statistically superior to any playoff run in Kobe's life. Your original comment about 01/08/09/10 being "considerably" better than any of LeBron's playoff runs doesn't make sense from any angle.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]:oldlol: at IndianGuy arguing that Lebron's game 6 vs Boston was good. At no point did he seem to take control of that game. And if you're going to post the stats, why not include the 9 turnovers, or the 8/21 shooting(38%) or 51 TS%.

Those stats at least start to explain how a 27/19/10 game could be so empty, but it goes beyond that if you watch the game.

He played very well in games 1 and 3, iirc, was mediocre in game 2 and sucked the last 3 games. So 2 good games in a series that lasted 6 games? [B]Kobe was easily better vs Boston[/B].[/QUOTE]

I agree about Lebron's series not being as good as the stats....although you conveniently ignore Lebron shutting down Pierce for most of the series.

But you can't be serious about the bold. Easily better? Kobe has very bad in that series and even worse in the 4th qtrs. If not for Fisher saving his ass in game 3 or artest/gasol/fisher saving his ass in game 7 they lose that series.

Was Kobe better? Not sure. Debatable. Easily better? No freaking way. Especially because Kobe has horrendous in the 4th qtr and crunch time throughout the series.


Edit: And lets not ignore that Perkins missed the last two games against the Lakers. He mattered. You say stats don't matter, well, Perkins being out made the Celtics a worse team. Noticeably worse I might add.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]:oldlol: at IndianGuy arguing that Lebron's game 6 vs Boston was good.[/quote]

It was a solid game. Laughing won't change that. Try harder.

[quote]At no point did he seem to take control of that game.[/quote]

Wait, so any game where you don't "take control" is automatically a bad game? Awesome logic :rolleyes:

[quote]Those stats at least start to explain how a 27/19/10 game could be so empty[/quote]

An empty stat line is one that doesn't really impact the game. LeBron's play that night on the other hand was the only thing keeping Cleveland competitive.

[quote]He played very well in games 1 and 3, iirc, was mediocre in game 2 and sucked the last 3 games. So 2 good games in a series that lasted 6 games?[/quote]

He had 2 good/great games(Game 1 & 3), 2 average/solid ones(Game 2 & 6) and 2 bad ones(Game 4 & 5). Defensively, he shut down Boston's best scorer all series.

[quote]Kobe was easily better vs Boston.[/QUOTE]

Even though he was statistically inferior in every way imaginable and didn't do jack in the 4th qtrs to boot. Sorry, you fail.

[QUOTE=chazzy]Serious? You're comparing a "run" of 2 series, including one where he checked out early, to multiple great runs to the finals?[/quote]

Great runs are made by teams, not individual players. Are you telling me LeBron in Kobe's position wouldn't replicate the success LA had?

At the end of the day, the only way we can compare their playoff runs is through their individual play.

[quote]those overall numbers aren't gonna fool anyone into thinking that was some all time great playoff run :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Never said it was, just like Kobe's wasn't. What is true though is LeBron was SPECTACULAR for the most part in the 2010 playoffs. If Kobe has been "considerably" better many times, then I'd at least like to see 1 playoff run by him with superior production.

[QUOTE=Indian guy]This is a MYTH. Watch the games, not Dan Gilbert's mouth. The only weird thing about LeBron's series against Boston is the first half of Game 5, nothing more. Watch those games, and prove me otherwise.[/QUOTE]

I did watch the games, I'm not convinced you did though. Sorry, but when a player like Lebron who had just dominated for 2 seasons like few in history have has 3 consecutive games like that, it makes me wonder at least.


[QUOTE]It's funny how the "quit" accusation was always over Game 5, but after Gilbert's rant, it suddenly became 3 straight games. People's inability to think for themselves never ceases to amazes me.[/QUOTE]

I've been consistent since the end of game 6. Others were saying it then as well. I never emphasized game 5. That was the worst, but I was critical of him for the 3 consecutive games, and this is coming from someone who always defends his 2009 series vs Orlando.

[QUOTE]Based on what? Just the past season LeBron's best series came in the ECF(against the #1 ranked D), and '10 LeBron >> '09 LeBron anyway. No reason why he wouldn't have maintained/improved his play. Especially considering that after Boston, the opponents were only going to get weaker defensively.[/QUOTE]

It's more difficult to maintain great numbers over a long sample size, it doesn't mean it can't be done, but you can't compare numbers from 2 series to 4. If you want to do that, then compare Kobe's 2010 series vs Utah and Phoenix to Lebron's 2010 run, or 2001 vs Sacramento and San Antonio, 2008(first 2, even 3 rounds he put up incredible numbers), 2009 vs Utah and Denver. Take those back to back series by Kobe rather than the 4 series playoff runs and his numbers look a lot better.

[QUOTE]There isn't a single metric out there that supports this. Not raw numbers, not PER, not EFF or heck, even tbe holy clutch numbers. Kobe was just brutal late in games in the Finals.
[/QUOTE]

So basketball has to be measured in numbers? And I've never cared about PER anyway. Not everyone has to think like a nerd when it comes to sports.

[QUOTE]Yeah, why bother with something called facts :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Yeah, why bother watching the games when you can just check the boxscore. :rolleyes:

And again, you left out key numbers such as turnovers and shooting percentage.

[QUOTE]A great player is allowed to have off nights. A couple of games don't negate your entire body of work, and LeBron's in 2010 was pretty darn impressive. In fact, statistically superior to any playoff run in Kobe's life. Your original comment about 01/08/09/10 being "considerably" better than any of LeBron's playoff runs doesn't make sense from any angle.[/QUOTE]

No, superstars will receive criticism for having 3 consecutive games like that in the playoffs, it's how it is and how it will always be. And yes, those runs by Kobe are obviously better than Lebron's 2010 "run" which consisted of 1 great series and 2 impressive games in a 6 game series that he lost.

I'm done with you, this is pathetic, anyone who thinks what Lebron did in the 2010 playoffs is comparable to Kobe in the '01, '08, '09 or '10 playoffs clearly has an agenda.

This is why people rail on Kobe.

Easily better? The more I think about that comment the funnier it becomes.

Just for fun I looked up what Lebron did to Pierce defensively. Again, conveniently ignored in this thread.

Pierce has his worst game of the playoffs against Lebron. Pierce had 4 of his worst 5 games in the playoffs against Lebron.

Pierce had one game score over 8.4 in that series. That is horrible. He played so bad people were asking if he was hurt. LOL

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I did watch the games, I'm not convinced you did though. Sorry, but when a player like Lebron who had just dominated for 2 seasons like few in history have has 3 consecutive games like that, it makes me wonder at least.




I've been consistent since the end of game 6. Others were saying it then as well. I never emphasized game 5. That was the worst, but I was critical of him for the 3 consecutive games, and this is coming from someone who always defends his 2009 series vs Orlando.



It's more difficult to maintain great numbers over a long sample size, it doesn't mean it can't be done, but you can't compare numbers from 2 series to 4. If you want to do that, then compare Kobe's 2010 series vs Utah and Phoenix to Lebron's 2010 run, or 2001 vs Sacramento and San Antonio, 2008(first 2, even 3 rounds he put up incredible numbers), 2009 vs Utah and Denver. Take those back to back series by Kobe rather than the 4 series playoff runs and his numbers look a lot better.



So basketball has to be measured in numbers? And I've never cared about PER anyway. Not everyone has to think like a nerd when it comes to sports.



Yeah, why bother watching the games when you can just check the boxscore. :rolleyes:

And again, you left out key numbers such as turnovers and shooting percentage.



No, superstars will receive criticism for having 3 consecutive games like that in the playoffs, it's how it is and how it will always be. And yes, those runs by Kobe are obviously better than Lebron's 2010 "run" which consisted of 1 great series and 2 impressive games in a 6 game series that he lost.

I'm done with you, this is pathetic, anyone who thinks what Lebron did in the 2010 playoffs is comparable to Kobe in the '01, '08, '09 or '10 playoffs clearly has an agenda.[/QUOTE]

2 series doesn't even make a playoff run. So no, there is no way to rank Lebron's playoff run in 10 over many of Kobe's.

However, are you ready to admit that Kobe's series against Boston was not "easily better"?

If not, why was Kobe easily better?

And you can't just ignore every objective measure because you feel like it. Why should your opinion count more? I watched the games. I think Lebron was better. He made a bigger impact on defense, created more for his sorry ass teammates, was better on the boards, and was more efficient from the field.....doing that against a Boston team with Perk in each game with far less help than Kobe.

[QUOTE=Indian guy]Great runs are made by teams, not individual players. Are you telling me LeBron in Kobe's position wouldn't replicate the success LA had?

At the end of the day, the only way we can compare their playoff runs is through their individual play. [/QUOTE]
Where do you draw the line factoring in sample size though? Wade technically had an all time great playoff "run" in 2010 but he only played 5 games

[QUOTE]Never said it was, just like Kobe's wasn't.[/QUOTE]
His 01, 08, and 09 runs weren't great?

[QUOTE] What is true though is LeBron was SPECTACULAR for the most part in the 2010 playoffs. If Kobe has been "considerably" better many times, then I'd at least like to see 1 playoff run by him with superior production.[/QUOTE]
He was SPECTACULAR for only a series and a half. That HAS to be considered when you compare it to other deeper playoff runs. Otherwise you start venturing into awkward territory, comparing it to a lot of other great runs in the games' history that are [I]technically[/I] inferior statistically. He had a better PER than nearly all of Hakeem and Bird's runs in 2010 :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]2 series doesn't even make a playoff run. So no, there is no way to rank Lebron's playoff run in 10 over many of Kobe's.

However, are you ready to admit that Kobe's series against Boston was not "easily better"?

If not, why was Kobe easily better?[/QUOTE]

Kobe had 5 good games and won the series, Lebron had 2 and lost the series. And having 3 bad games in a row is inexcusable and when your star does that, it's really hard to win.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Kobe had 5 good games and won the series, Lebron had 2 and lost the series. And having 3 bad games in a row is inexcusable and when your star does that, it's really hard to win.[/QUOTE]

put the numbers for each game!!!

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Kobe had 5 good games and won the series, Lebron had 2 and lost the series. And having 3 bad games in a row is inexcusable and when your star does that, it's really hard to win.[/QUOTE]

I'm confused as to where you get 5 good games.

Kobe was not good in game 2, game 3, or game 7. And was he even good in game 4? Where his team got killed in the 4th?

5 good games? I don't see it.

And winning the series is a pretty weak argument considering the huge gap on help Lebron and Kobe had.

So basically you think Kobe was better because he had better teammates and a better coach. Right?

[QUOTE=G-Funk]put the numbers for each game!!![/QUOTE]

Game 1: 30/7/6/1/1 on 10-22 from the field
Game 4: 33/6/2/2/0 on 10-22 from the field
Game 5: 38/5/4/1/1 on 13-27 from the field (desperate 3's at the end killed his percentage, shot 53-54% for the game until then)
Game 6: 26/11/3/4/0 on 9-19 from the field

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I did watch the games, I'm not convinced you did though.[/quote]

You'd be wrong. I have watched, rewatched and triple-watched those games over the past year, and see NOTHING off about LeBron's effort/attitude/approach barring the first half of Game 5. You're free to re-watch those games and prove me otherwise.

[quote]Sorry, but when a player like Lebron who had just dominated for 2 seasons like few in history have has 3 consecutive games like that, it makes me wonder at least.[/quote]

I don't see the big deal. The KG/Thibodeau-led Boston Celtics are arguably the greatest defensive team in NBA history. They own star perimeter players like no one else. Kobe in '08 and '10 against them has fared even worse than LeBron.

[quote]and this is coming from someone who always defends his 2009 series vs Orlando.[/quote]

Dude, you're a little too much in love with 2009-LeBron.

[quote]It's more difficult to maintain great numbers over a long sample size[/quote]

Agreed, but what in LeBron's history indicates he wouldn't be able to maintain his level of play? Especially considering what happened the previous season and more importantly, with Boston ousted, any team he'd run into would be weaker defensively. There's no doubt in my mind LeBron's production would've gotten better had Cleveland defeated Boston last season.

[quote]it doesn't mean it can't be done, but you can't compare numbers from 2 series to 4.[/quote]

All I can do is INDIVIDUALLY compare how 2 players fared. Winning series' is a team accomplishment. I can't fault LeBron for not making it past the 2nd round just because he was stuck with a 20-win supporting cast, while Kobe's LAKERS on the other hand were a Top 5 team talent-wise.

[quote]If you want to do that, then compare Kobe's 2010 series vs Utah and Phoenix to Lebron's 2010 run[/quote]

Nice try. Kobe's first 2 series in 2010 were against OKC and Utah, so let's compare those with LeBron's run.

[quote]or 2001 vs Sacramento and San Antonio[/quote]

Why are you taking Kobe's best series' from each run? You can only take the first 2 series'.

[quote]So basketball has to be measured in numbers?[/quote]

Not just numbers, no, but it's still the most objective metric of judging players out there. I will always take the combination of numbers + actual on-court play over just someone's "word".

[quote]it's how it is and how it will always be. And yes, those runs by Kobe are obviously better than Lebron's 2010 "run"[/quote]

Yeah, even though he wasn't more productive in any of those runs. Sorry, winning series' while playing on FAR superior teams doesn't make you better.

[quote]which consisted of 1 great series and 2 impressive games in a 6 game series that he lost.[/quote]

Those "2 impressive games" still yielded much better production than Kobe's against the exact same team. Gee, Kobe sure was much better against Boston :rolleyes:

[quote]anyone who thinks what Lebron did in the 2010 playoffs is comparable to Kobe in the '01, '08, '09 or '10 playoffs clearly has an agenda.[/QUOTE]

Kobe doesn't have a single playoff run in his life statistically superior to LeBron in 2010, yet I'm the one with the agenda for having an issue with your ignorance :rolleyes:

My issue isn't even with someone saying Kobe has some runs in his career better than LeBron's in 2010(he does). My issue is with the "considerably better" BS that you're spewing out with nothing to back-up your ignorance with.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm confused as to where you get 5 good games.

Kobe was not good in game 2, game 3, or game 7. And was he even good in game 4? Where his team got killed in the 4th?

5 good games? I don't see it.

And winning the series is a pretty weak argument considering the huge gap on help Lebron and Kobe had.

So basically you think Kobe was better because he had better teammates and a better coach. Right?[/QUOTE]

He had 4 good games. Check above a couple posts, someone posted the stats.

You honestly think LeBron was better given his performances in the last 3 games of the series?

C'mon, son.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41] And was he even good in game 4? Where his team got killed in the 4th?[/QUOTE]
He had a bunch of TOs but he scored 12pts on 2/5 shooting in the 4th. That was the game Big Baby threw a party inside, I think he had double digits in the 4th and Boston scored in the 30+

Like so many other threads, this is infested with idiotic trolls.

[QUOTE=Doranku]He had 4 good games. Check above a couple posts, someone posted the stats.

You honestly think LeBron was better given his performances in the last 3 games of the series?

C'mon, son.[/QUOTE]

I'm confused as to why people think Kobe's game 7 is any better than Lebron's game 6. The only difference is that Kobe had a lot more help. That is all.

This is a really interesting topic because it proves that a team winning changes what happened.

Last 3 games? You act like Lebron was horrible in game 4. He certainly wasn't great....and he did turn it over a lot, but you have to factor in his circumstances a little. Look at his sorry ass team. Its a joke compared to Kobe's.

Oh, and game 4:

22/9/8 7 of 18 shooting and held paul pierce to 3 of 8 from the field for 9 points (5 turnovers)

And I'm supposed to think that Kobe's game 4 was somehow better than that? Total bullshit. Sorry.

[QUOTE=chazzy]Where do you draw the line factoring in sample size though?[/quote]

2 series is significant enough I'd say. Especially if the amount of games you have played have hit double digits.

[quote]His 01, 08, and 09 runs weren't great?[/quote]

You said [i]all-time great[/i], not just great. Yes, they were great runs, but certainly not all-time great runs.

[quote]He was SPECTACULAR for only a series and a half. That HAS to be considered when you compare it to other deeper playoff runs. Otherwise you start venturing into awkward territory, comparing it to a lot of other great runs in the games' history that are [I]technically[/I] inferior statistically. He had a better PER than nearly all of Hakeem and Bird's runs in 2010 :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

So, do we basically deem any comparison where one player ended up playing more series' as the superior run? That isn't really being fair to the guy with the inferior team.

[QUOTE=chazzy]He had a bunch of TOs but he scored 12pts on 2/5 shooting in the 4th. That was the game Big Baby threw a party inside, I think he had double digits in the 4th and Boston scored in the 30+[/QUOTE]

Yea. He had 2 assists and 7 turnovers and his team crumbled in the 4th. Sorry. Thats not a good game based on the standards people are using in this thread for Lebron. Not at all.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Like so many other threads, this is infested with idiotic trolls.[/QUOTE]

Funny. Considering you made the biggest joke comment that I've seen in the thread about Kobe's boston series being easily better.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm confused as to why people think Kobe's game 7 is any better than Lebron's game 6. The only difference is that Kobe had a lot more help. That is all.

This is a really interesting topic because it proves that a team winning changes what happened.

Last 3 games? You act like Lebron was horrible in game 4. He certainly wasn't great....and he did turn it over a lot, but you have to factor in his circumstances a little. Look at his sorry ass team. Its a joke compared to Kobe's.

Oh, and game 4:

22/9/8 7 of 18 shooting and held paul pierce to 3 of 8 from the field for 9 points (5 turnovers)

And I'm supposed to think that Kobe's game 4 was somehow better than that? Total bullshit. Sorry.[/QUOTE]

Kobe scored 11 more points on 4 more shots. Shot 46%/55%/88% compared to 39%/0%/73% (LOL) from LeBron. A couple more rebounds and six more assists somehow makes it total bullshit that Kobe's game was better than LeBron's?

Okaaaaaaaaaaay..

DMAVs is a troll......


ignore the fool it will make your life so much easier.

[QUOTE=Doranku]Kobe scored 11 more points on 4 more shots. Shot 46%/55%/88% compared to 39%/0%/73% (LOL) from LeBron. A couple more rebounds and [B]six more assists[/B] somehow makes it total bullshit that Kobe's game was better than LeBron's?

Okaaaaaaaaaaay..[/QUOTE]

Kobe doesn't get that number overall to often :oldlol:

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Yea. He had 2 assists and 7 turnovers and his team crumbled in the 4th. Sorry. Thats not a good game based on the standards people are using in this thread for Lebron. Not at all.[/QUOTE]

So Kobe's team crumbled in the 4th being outscored by 9, but LeBron's team didn't crumble in the 4th being outscored by 8? Right...

Not to mention that Cavs only scored 15 points in the 4th compared to 27 by the Lakers. It was their defense that crumbled, more specifically their interior defense. Like chazzy mentioned, Big Baby went ham on LA's soft bigs inside. You gonna blame Kobe for that? :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Doranku]Kobe scored 11 more points on 4 more shots. Shot 46%/55%/88% compared to 39%/0%/73% (LOL) from LeBron. A couple more rebounds and six more assists somehow makes it total bullshit that Kobe's game was better than LeBron's?

Okaaaaaaaaaaay..[/QUOTE]

Does Lebron get any credit for shutting down Pierce? Holding Pierce to 3 of 8 shooting and forcing 5 turnovers?

Does that not matter at all.

It must be nice to pretend that these guys play in a vacuum and pretend like Lebron doesn't have a much tougher hill to climb each game based on his teammates.

And I never said Lebron's game was better. I said its silly to claim Lebron played poorly his last three games and then turn around and say Kobe played well in game 4.

Thats a joke. Sorry.

[QUOTE=Doranku]So Kobe's team crumbled in the 4th being outscored by 9, but LeBron's team didn't crumble in the 4th being outscored by 8? Right...

Not to mention that Cavs only scored 15 points in the 4th compared to 27 by the Lakers. It was their defense that crumbled, more specifically their interior defense. Like chazzy mentioned, Big Baby went ham on LA's soft bigs inside. You gonna blame Kobe for that? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

So you want to talk about teammates? Really.

Again, I never said Lebron played a better game 4. I said its a double standard to claim Lebron played poorly and Kobe played well.

And LOL at acting like 6 more assists doesn't matter at all.

But you really want to talk about teammates? Who has guarding Rondo? Did he not go HAM when he went for 29/18/13 against the Cavs??? You really gonna blame Lebron for that? LOL LOL LOL

But somehow Davis going for 18 and 5 is a bigger deal....right?

Kobe stans.....:facepalm

lebron's per is inflated by the lower pace and comp. per measures against the average player, and kobe in 2010 saw d-will/nash/stoudemire/westbrook/durant/ while lebron saw...pierce?

[QUOTE=Indian guy]
So, do we basically deem any comparison where one player ended up playing more series' as the superior run? That isn't really being fair to the guy with the inferior team.[/QUOTE]
Do you think Lebron's 2010 run was better than nearly all of Hakeem's and Bird's?

How is it a double standard? Kobe shot well from the field, from 3, and from the line and scored 33 points on 22 shots while collecting 6 rebounds. LeBron shot like shit from everywhere. Given LeBron's tendency to sky over teammates for rebounds (see Game 6 of the very same series) and his uncanny 20 second dribble followed by a kick out to a player forcing them to shoot, forgive me if I'm not convinced that the 9 rebounds/8 assists makes LeBron's game "good".

How come you don't talk about the defense that Kobe played on Rondo? Rondo was nowhere NEAR the player that he was against Cleveland when he played LA. Sure, LeBron played great D on Pierce. I'll give him that. But Kobe also played good to great D on Rondo given the night. "Does that not count for anything?"

[QUOTE=Doranku]How is it a double standard? Kobe shot well from the field, from 3, and from the line and scored 33 points on 22 shots while collecting 6 rebounds. LeBron shot like shit from everywhere. Given LeBron's tendency to sky over teammates for rebounds (see Game 6 of the very same series) and his uncanny 20 second dribble followed by a kick out to a player forcing them to shoot, forgive me if I'm not convinced that the 9 rebounds/8 assists makes LeBron's game "good".

How come you don't talk about the defense that Kobe played on Rondo? Rondo was nowhere NEAR the player that he was against Cleveland when he played LA. Sure, LeBron played great D on Pierce. I'll give him that. But Kobe also played good to great D on Rondo given the night. "Does that not count for anything?"[/QUOTE]

Of course it counts. But Lebron was a better defensive player for sure against the Celtics than Kobe was. Kobe just sagged off rondo and forced him to shoot because he had the luxury of a great front line behind him.

The cavs? not so much.

Oh, and I'd advise you to look at Rondo's orlando series. He was not good at all in that series. Who was shutting him down? Was it Nelson? Reddick? Williams?.....LOL

It was the fact that the Magic had an interior presence that could defend the paint without fouling. That is where the real credit for slowing Rondo down should go.

And, back to the game 4's. So basically you want to discount everything Lebron does. His rebounds don't count, his assists don't count, his defense just isn't that great....etc. Again, thats weak.

That is my problem with people like you. You act like Lebron was stat padding by being the only Cav to work on the boards. The Celtics out rebounded the Cavs by 14 in that game. Lebron had 9 boards. The rest of his sorry team combined for 24 rebounds and let a guard get 18 freaking boards. Yet its Lebron that is stat padding. You want to talk about the difference in a game, Being outrebounded by 14 is always a good place to start. But yea, its stat padding. He stole those rebounds.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Of course it counts. But Lebron was a better defensive player for sure against the Celtics than Kobe was. Kobe just sagged off rondo and forced him to shoot because he had the luxury of a great front line behind him.

The cavs? not so much.

Oh, and I'd advise you to look at Rondo's orlando series. He was not good at all in that series. Who was shutting him down? Was it Nelson? Reddick? Williams?.....LOL

It was the fact that the Magic had an interior presence that could defend the paint without fouling. That is where the real credit for slowing Rondo down should go.

And, back to the game 4's. So basically you want to discount everything Lebron does. His rebounds don't count, his assists don't count, his defense just isn't that great....etc. Again, thats weak.

That is my problem with people like you. You act like Lebron was stat padding by being the only Cav to work on the boards. The Celtics out rebounded the Cavs by 14 in that game. Lebron had 9 boards. The rest of his sorry team combined for 24 rebounds and let a guard get 18 freaking boards. Yet its Lebron that is stat padding. You want to talk about the difference in a game, Being outrebounded by 14 is always a good place to start. But yea, its stat padding. He stole those rebounds.[/QUOTE]

I never said they didn't count. Hell, I just conceded that LeBron played great defense against Pierce. What more do you want? :oldlol:

Not saying his rebounds are stat padding because I don't remember every little detail of the game, but let's not exaggerate their importance. LeBron only had one of those rebounds in the 4th quarter of Game 4, and it was with 20 seconds left when the Cavs were down by 8. Moreover, he went 1-5 from the field and only scored 3 points in the 4th quarter. I think it was chazzy who said Kobe, on the other hand, had 12 points on 2-5 shooting in the 4th quarter of game 4?

I'm not saying Kobe's game 4 was light years better than LeBron's, but I do think Kobe had a slightly better game. I guess that makes me a stan. :confusedshrug:

Funny, though, that you keep stressing these rebounds when you completely neglect Kobe's 15 boards when talking about game 7. All it is to you is, "6-24! 6-24!" For someone who preaches consistency, you aren't very consistent yourself.

Sadly when you play that badly in the finals what you did to get there is all forgotten

[QUOTE=Doranku]I never said they didn't count. Hell, I just conceded that LeBron played great defense against Pierce. What more do you want? :oldlol:

Not saying his rebounds are stat padding because I don't remember every little detail of the game, but let's not exaggerate their importance. LeBron only had one of those rebounds in the 4th quarter of Game 4, and it was with 20 seconds left when the Cavs for down by 8. Moreover, he went 1-5 from the field and only scored 3 points in the 4th quarter. I think it was chazzy who said Kobe, on the other hand, had 12 points on 2-5 shooting in the 4th quarter of game 4?

I'm not saying Kobe's game 4 was light years better than LeBron's, but I do think Kobe had a slightly better game. I guess that makes me a stan. :confusedshrug:

Funny, though, that you keep stressing these rebounds when you completely neglect Kobe's 15 boards when talking about game 7. All it is to you is, "6-24! 6-24!" For someone who preaches consistency, you aren't very consistent yourself.[/QUOTE]

I'm not preaching anything. I'm trying to understand what you are saying. I have no problem with you saying Kobe's game 4 was slightly better. I personally think in terms of overall impact they were pretty even. However, I have no issue with saying one is slightly better than the other.

My issue was with you saying that Lebron played horribly his last three games. And then you turn around and credit Kobe for playing a "good" game 4. That doesn't make sense to me. Especially given the circumstances of each game for the two players and the similar outcome. I don't see how one can be considered "good" and one "poor".....that isn't consistent.

As to the rebounding. I never said Kobe's 15 boards weren't important. I said they don't make a bad game good. And Kobe played a shit game in game 7. I don't know how anyone can dispute that. I've been very clear on that. Its not even about missing shots for me. Its about him taking so many terrible shots and clearly forcing the issue in a do or die game that was on the verge of a blowout. I don't respect that kind of play. Now, if Kobe had taken those shots in the normal flow and they had been good looks? I'd have no problem with it. Again, I've been consistent about that from the beginning and you won't see my trumpeting Lebron's game 6.

However, I'm again confused as to why Lebron is getting hated on for his game 6. Did he play well? Not really. His stats are much better than his play. Did he play poorly? Hell no. He kept his team alive in the 2nd half after Mo, as usual, couldn't get it done when it really matters. Or how Jamison, a career shrinker in big games and moments, came up with a solid 2 of 10 for 5 points while KG roasted him for 22 and 12.

Do I think Lebron played awesome in games 4 and 6. Nope, but he hardly played as bad as you and others are letting on. You act like he just was awful...and thats not the case.

And I'm still confused by the people (not saying you are one of them) that hate on Lebron for game 6 and give Kobe a pass for game 7. How is that fair or consistent.

And furthermore, how is it fair to say Kobe's series was "easily better" when Lebron shot 5% better from the field (scoring only .8 less ppg), got to the ft line more often, rebounded the ball better, created more scoring chances for his teammates, forced more steals, had more blocks, and played better defense. I don't get it. And he lost in 6. To a better team. A team that had Perkins for all 6. And Lebron did that playing with far less help from his teammates and coach than Kobe had.

Saying Kobe was "easily better" is exactly why people laugh at Kobe fans. Its just simply not true by any standard or measure. Only in the hugely biased mind of Kobe stans can a statement like that make sense.

kobe averaged 29 PPG/8 RPG/4 APG/2 SPG/1 BPG/53% TS in the 2010 finals against the best D in the league. through the first 6 games he was averaging 30 PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/56% TS and had many people saying he should win finals mvp even if the lakers lost. why do people keep acting like he had a poor series? overall, he was solid.

[QUOTE=Jacks3]kobe averaged 29 PPG/8 RPG/4 APG/2 SPG/1 BPG/53% TS in the 2010 finals against the best D in the league. through the first 6 games he was averaging 30 PPG/6 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/56% TS and had many people saying he should win finals mvp even if the lakers lost. why do people keep acting like he had a poor series? overall, he was solid.[/QUOTE]

I think the real question is how that series is considered "easily better" than:

27/9/7/2/1 54% TS (don't quote me on those numbers....got them from a site) while playing better defense and having to carry a heavier burden.....playing a team at full strength with Perk there every game.

How is Kobe's series "easily better"????