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[QUOTE=rezznor]it's the best for him and for the Rockets. Sad to see him go, truly one of the genuine good guys in the league.[/QUOTE]
Why would you say that? Cause he looks that way? He is one of the most arrogant douchebags I have ever met, genuine "good guy".
Dont read a book by its cover guys.
Yao as a bust:
Yao #1 pick
Yao made over 100million playing basketball in 8 seasons
BUT
Yao, in 8 seasons, played 60+ games in 4 OF THE SEASONS
Yao was never the best at a slim position
In 8 seasons, made the 2nd round 1 time
In 8 seasons averaged 10 bds 2 times
If you asked Hou what they wanted in 2002 it would not have been 7 1st round exits, with 4 heatlhy seasons with good center production at $100mill.
(and I'll throw in because it riles people up - not the best from his draft calss)
Not an olowakandi/Kwame Brown/Darko level bust, but still a bust...on a level like Bogut/Oden (If he were healthy, oh boy would we be good).
Wow. I'm reading Joey Zaza posts. Yao is a bust? What are you smoking.
I nominate Joey as the dumbass poster of the year.
:oldlol:
If you ask Houston I'm sure they enjoyed having a guy that was a threat to go 20/10 every night. Shit even 18/8 is something that no team is gonna go "no thanks." They also prob enjoyed the increased revenue from gaining millions more fans from China.
Actually if you ask every team. The only issue was not being able to stay on the court. But I don't remember any mad expectations that he was gonna win multiple MVP's and lead Houston to tons of championships.
What they did get was one of the top-2 centers when healthy. The only weight that your argument holds is that he couldn't stay on the court. Then you should say "the end"
For me this is terribly sad news. It's a shame to see such a bright career be derailed year after year. Chuck Hayes is a family friend so I followed the Rockets pretty closely once he got into the league and watching Yao was a joy.
That said I have been saying all year that he should retire. I'm glad he did, for his personal future. Ask Bill Walton, and I'm sure he might say something similar.
[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]
(and I'll throw in because it riles people up - not the best from his draft calss)
Not an olowakandi/Kwame Brown/Darko level bust, but still a bust.[/QUOTE]
The only guys that turned out to be a better all around package are Amare and Boozer, who went 9th and 35th. Maybe there is a small case for Scola, Nene or Caron Butler. But that
[QUOTE=Amare4lyfe] I nominate Joey as the dumbass poster of the year.[/QUOTE]
Its an honor just to be nominated. And I'd like to thank Yao, who carries his overration (word?) into retirement.
[QUOTE=Timmy D for MVP]If you ask Houston I'm sure they enjoyed having a guy that was a threat to go 20/10 every night. Shit even 18/8 is something that no team is gonna go "no thanks." They also prob enjoyed the increased revenue from gaining millions more fans from China. [/QUOTE]
I am sure...every team needs a B+/A- center...which is what Yao was. We just don't need to use a #1 pick or $100,000,000 on it.
[QUOTE=Timmy D for MVP]Actually if you ask every team. The only issue was not being able to stay on the court. [/QUOTE]
But that's the issue...Oden would be great for Port. Bogut would be great for Mil. They aren't...they are busts. Now if they come back and give us 5 or 6 seasons of 70ish games of effective play, they can lost that moniker, but as long as they are using up space, and hope, and not playing -- they are busts.
To sum, they are not helping their team to the level their salary or draft place deserves....which is what a bust is.
You've obviously never seen Yao play if you don't think he was an above average defender, Rockets was one of the best defensive teams a few years ago mostly due to him... :facepalm
If NBA.com didn't remove most of their content off their site I would show you the article near the end of the 08-09 season where Yao was ranked 2nd for DPOY after Dwight Howard.
[QUOTE=gyu]You've obviously never seen Yao play if you don't think he was an above average defender, Rockets was one of the best defensive teams a few years ago mostly due to him... :facepalm .[/QUOTE]
Seemed stiff and slow to me. He was tall so he could block shots and against other big stiffs he was heLL defensively. Agaisnt mobile centers, he was lost. People used to criticize Shaq for not showing on the p/r, Yao majored in dropping off on the p/r.
[IMG]http://straighttotheleague.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/tracy21.jpg[/IMG]
What a waste...
[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]Seemed stiff and slow to me. He was tall so he could block shots and against other big stiffs he was heLL defensively. Agaisnt mobile centers, he was lost. People used to criticize Shaq for not showing on the p/r, Yao majored in dropping off on the p/r.[/QUOTE]
Well Dwight would have to disagree, Yao Ming has destroyed him every time they've played.
[QUOTE=R.I.P.]The only guys that turned out to be a better all around package are Amare and Boozer, who went 9th and 35th. [/QUOTE]
I was only going for Amare -- but thanks for the support RIP. Glad to have you on my side in this debate.
[QUOTE=gyu]Well Dwight would have to disagree, Yao Ming has destroyed him every time they've played.[/QUOTE]
Can you find a smaller sample to base your opinion on?
[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]To sum, they are not helping their team to the level their salary or draft place deserves....which is what a bust is.[/QUOTE]
Well no again he did play at a #1 pick level. That is unquestionable.
As far as value sure it's a large contract but it's money they prob got back with the increased exposure and fan base.
SO as far as a value bust... again he's not.
[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]Can you find a smaller sample to base your opinion on?[/QUOTE]
Can you provide any sample? Dwight, arguably the best center at the time just happens to have a bad game every time he plays Yao on both ends of the floor?
[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]I`m an idiot, who takes posts out of context[/QUOTE]
I agree.
[QUOTE=Timmy D for MVP]
As far as value sure it's a large contract but it's money they prob got back with the increased exposure and fan base.
[/QUOTE]
I talk contributions on the court v. investment made by Hou. You talk fan-base. Can we limit the Yao discussion to his actual play and not the number of fans he had in China.
Because i'll concede, Yao had alot of fans based on his nation of origin. I'll also argue that doesn't make him better at basketball.
I do like your argument that "he did play at a #1 pick level. That is unquestionable. " Its funny because according to RIP, in his draft he played at a #3 level.
Moreover, he missed HUGE portions of half the seasons he played. That is the exact opposite of playing at a high level.
And don't we say things on this site like "He played with another All-Star, he could've at least made it to..." or do we only make that argument when we are criticizing T-Mac?
[QUOTE=R.I.P.]I agree.[/QUOTE]
I appreciate your misquoting me RIP, but please put your quote in context, so I can understand it better.
[QUOTE=gyu]Can you provide any sample? Dwight, arguably the best center at the time just happens to have a bad game every time he plays Yao on both ends of the floor?[/QUOTE]
How many times they play each other? 6? Maybe. Glen Rice was the best player in the league for 6 games out of his life. I don't use it in arguments now.
His match up with Duncan, holds Duncan well below his usual shooting % at 43.5%. If you looked at Yao's numbers after 2003, he consistently played Duncan well.
Against Duncan:
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mingya01&p2=duncati01"]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mingya01&p2=duncati01[/URL]
Against Amar'e:
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=stoudam01&p2=mingya01"]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=stoudam01&p2=mingya01[/URL]
Also holds Amar'e below his averages, especially his fg% where he was shooting at a very high clip in Phoenix.
And of course here is his match up with Dwight (played 9 times) where Dwight gets dominated the most of the 3 big men and it's not even close:
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mingya01&p2=howardw01"]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mingya01&p2=howardw01[/URL]
Holding Dwight to 12 ppg on 44% shooting and 10 rebounds. Rockets win 7 of the 9, while Yao averages 24 (54% shooting) 10
[QUOTE=gyu]His match up with Duncan, holds Duncan well below his usual shooting % at 43.5%. If you looked at Yao's numbers after 2003, he consistently played Duncan well.
Against Duncan:
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mingya01&p2=duncati01"]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mingya01&p2=duncati01[/URL].[/QUOTE]
He matched up v. Duncan...seems more likely that he'd match with Rasho or whatever other stiff Duncan played next to during any given season.
[QUOTE=gyu]Against Amar'e:
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=stoudam01&p2=mingya01"]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=stoudam01&p2=mingya01[/URL]
Also holds Amar'e below his averages, especially his fg% where he was shooting at a very high clip in Phoenix.[/QUOTE]
Wow - they played each other to a virtual draw. Amare must've been some monster defender to shut down a guy a foot taller than him like that.
[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]He matched up v. Duncan...seems more likely that he'd match with Rasho or whatever other stiff Duncan played next to during any given season.
Wow - they played each other to a virtual draw. Amare must've been some monster defender to shut down a guy a foot taller than him like that.[/QUOTE]
can you provide ANYTHING to support your arguments? You've been ignoring my request to see samples of your own. I'm not even gonna reply to you anymore if you can't support your arguments.
Also, what's the reason Houston was a top 5 defensive team a few years ago? Don't tell me Battier, because the last couple seasons we had him and we've been a terrible defensive team.
Amar'e averaged mid 50s for fg% in Phoenix, and Yao held him to 10+% below his average, I would say that is very good.
I dont believe this is it for Yao, I think he wants to see how his foot has healed by mid-season before he gives it 1 more shot.
Every NBA player who retired due to injury attempted 1 more comeback.
[QUOTE=gyu]And of course here is his match up with Dwight (played 9 times) where Dwight gets dominated the most of the 3 big men and it's not even close:
Holding Dwight to 12 ppg on 44% shooting and 10 rebounds. Rockets win 7 of the 9, while Yao averages 24 (54% shooting) 10[/QUOTE]
Yao had Dwight's number.
Is the point that Yao is a better ball player than Dwight? I doubt you even beleive that? Is the point that Yao was a dominating ball player at times? -- I beleive that.
Doesn't mean the dude did not live up to his billing, contract, or expectations.
[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]Yao had Dwight's number.
Is the point that Yao is a better ball player than Dwight? I doubt you even beleive that? Is the point that Yao was a dominating ball player at times? -- I beleive that.
Doesn't mean the dude did not live up to his billing, contract, or expectations.[/QUOTE]
You are missing my argument, you claim Yao is a bad defender and can't defend, I claim the opposite. You specifically stated he does bad against mobile big men, and who is more mobile than Dwight?
[QUOTE=gyu]can you provide ANYTHING to support your arguments? You've been ignoring my request to see samples of your own. I'm not even gonna reply to you anymore if you can't support your arguments.
[/QUOTE]
I don't know what support I need to give...look at his averages and his games played and the results of his efforts. Do I need to post them. He was a solid scorer and an ok rebounder..not the passer we all want to beleive he was (under 2apg). He was not the best at his position (want me to post Shaq's stats or Howard's stats), he was not a top 10 player in the league, and he missed a ton of games while playing with a huge contract and getting AS votes without playing for them.
What proof do you want to see from me?
Why was Hou good defensively---good defensive coach installing a good defensive system led by good defensive players. I know its not one guy.
How did Yao shut down amare? How did Amare shut down Yao? Held a 20+ppg scorer to 18ppg.
[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]I talk contributions on the court v. investment made by Hou. You talk fan-base. Can we limit the Yao discussion to his actual play and not the number of fans he had in China.
Because i'll concede, Yao had alot of fans based on his nation of origin. I'll also argue that doesn't make him better at basketball.
I do like your argument that "he did play at a #1 pick level. That is unquestionable. " Its funny because according to RIP, in his draft he played at a #3 level.
Moreover, he missed HUGE portions of half the seasons he played. That is the exact opposite of playing at a high level.
And don't we say things on this site like "He played with another All-Star, he could've at least made it to..." or do we only make that argument when we are criticizing T-Mac?[/QUOTE]
But that's a moot point when he's bringing in more money than the team is giving him. The whole idea is that one is "not worth the money" right? But if he
a) plays at a high level (which he did when healthy I don't understand what you're talking about)
AND
b) actually brings in money
How does that become a bust as far as value is concerned? Think of it like this... you can subtract the money that he helped earned from his total contract and suddenly it makes more sense right?
And sure there were other guys. There's no such thing as a definitive #1 when looking back on a draft. (Well okay maybe Tim Duncan). You can look back and say that anyone of those players could have gone 1 and would have turned out well. Do you say Hakeem is a bust because he didn't play to the #1 spot in his draft? Cause if you did I'd slap you.
Answer me this then had he gone 3rd would you not affix the bust label?
[QUOTE=gyu]You are missing my argument, you claim Yao is a bad defender and can't defend, I claim the opposite. You specifically stated he does bad against mobile big men, and who is more mobile than Dwight?[/QUOTE]
Dwight was always mobile...I think early he didn't now how to use it.
The defender argument is to counter al lthe arguments about how poor a defender Amare is...but as you showed, Yao shut down amare and amare shut down Yao rendering the Amare-defender argument moot.
Projected to be a bust.Ended up a 19/9 player who had a stretch as the best center in the game.
Can't complain:applause:
I doubt he's done though
[QUOTE=Timmy D for MVP]But that's a moot point when he's bringing in more money than the team is giving him. The whole idea is that one is "not worth the money" right? But if he
a) plays at a high level (which he did when healthy I don't understand what you're talking about)?[/QUOTE]
I am talking about contributions on the court. Yeah he brought in ancillary income, while using up 12% of Hou;'s cap while NOT PLAYING FOR HUGE CHUINKS OF SEASONS. I am talking about his play as a BASKETBALL PLAYER not a pseudo celebrity.
[QUOTE=Timmy D for MVP]And sure there were other guys. There's no such thing as a definitive #1 when looking back on a draft. (Well okay maybe Tim Duncan). You can look back and say that anyone of those players could have gone 1 and would have turned out well. Do you say Hakeem is a bust because he didn't play to the #1 spot in his draft? Cause if you did I'd slap you. [/QUOTE]
Hakeem won 2 titles and was the best player at his position for long stretches of his career and was (arguably) the best player in the NBA for 2 seasons (no worse than top 3). That's all you'd ever ask from a #1 pick.
Yao did noone of those. He was never the best at his position and was not a top 10 player (I say not top 15) anddi not lead his team to any substantial playoff success and missed alrge chunks of half his seasons...what did he do to merit his draft slot and pay?
4 solid seasons?
[QUOTE=Butters]Projected to be a bust.[/QUOTE]
This is utter revisionist BS. EVERY team wanted him...EVERY TEAM. I'm sure some said it, but he was as much a guaranteed #1 pick as any player I can recall.
[url]http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nba/stories/2002-05-02-yao.htm[/url]
His own private workout for media and GM's with D.Stern singing his praises. Averages 40+pts in Shanghai
[QUOTE=gyu]His match up with Duncan, holds Duncan well below his usual shooting % at 43.5%. If you looked at Yao's numbers after 2003, he consistently played Duncan well.
Against Duncan:
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mingya01&p2=duncati01"]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mingya01&p2=duncati01[/URL]
Against Amar'e:
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=stoudam01&p2=mingya01"]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=stoudam01&p2=mingya01[/URL]
Also holds Amar'e below his averages, especially his fg% where he was shooting at a very high clip in Phoenix.
And of course here is his match up with Dwight (played 9 times) where Dwight gets dominated the most of the 3 big men and it's not even close:
[URL="http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mingya01&p2=howardw01"]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mingya01&p2=howardw01[/URL]
Holding Dwight to 12 ppg on 44% shooting and 10 rebounds. Rockets win 7 of the 9, while Yao averages 24 (54% shooting) 10[/QUOTE]
Nail in Zaza's coffin. I don't get why the idiot is trying to convince us all Yao was a bust or wasn't the best at ANY point. If he's consistently getting the best of top C's in the game obviously he's the best. Not to mention he did have stats to back it up. Yao was NO DOUBT the best Center in the game for at least a season, maybe 2 when he was healthy. Nobody could guard him consistently.. and his defensive presence was huge.
Anyways saying this isn't true is a new fan or is in denial.
[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]I am talking about contributions on the court. Yeah he brought in ancillary income, while using up 12% of Hou;'s cap while NOT PLAYING FOR HUGE CHUINKS OF SEASONS. I am talking about his play as a BASKETBALL PLAYER not a pseudo celebrity.
Hakeem won 2 titles and was the best player at his position for long stretches of his career and was (arguably) the best player in the NBA for 2 seasons (no worse than top 3). That's all you'd ever ask from a #1 pick.
Yao did noone of those. He was never the best at his position and was not a top 10 player (I say not top 15) anddi not lead his team to any substantial playoff success and missed alrge chunks of half his seasons...what did he do to merit his draft slot and pay?
4 solid seasons?[/QUOTE]
So had he gone 3rd would you still label him a bust?
You're saying that because he made X amount of money he was a bust. But since he brought in money his value changes X-whatever he brings in. Lets use some random numbers. Lets say 10 mil. is the amount he gets right? So if he brings in extra revenue at say 5 mil. a year then basically his contract was for 5 mil. So... yeah I'd say that's an important factor. Whether he plays or not, which again when he did he was at one point the best at his position. And it's at least arguable.
Basically what I'm saying is to throw your value based argument out. Because he's not a bust in that department.
Also... wtf? Any time he was on the court he most def deserved it! I use the Hakeem example because your logic was that because there were a couple other guys who arguably were better all of the sudden he's a bust because of it? That's not how drafts work. All three guys are #1 capable.
[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]Nail in Zaza's coffin. I don't get why the idiot is trying to convince us all Yao was a bust or wasn't the best at ANY point. .[/QUOTE]
Can't convince anyone of anything. Just stating my opinion that as a #1 pick making $100,000,000 over 8 seasons- with the attention and hype he received- he should have contributed more (not his fault he was hurt, but it does impact his contributions on the court) .
Again he was a good player. A-/B+, borderling AS, helped by the dearth at his position. Not really a frnachise guy, not a superstar, not great, not THE guy. A really good player
[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]. Yao was NO DOUBT the best Center in the game for at least a season, maybe 2 when he was healthy.[/QUOTE]
Which season? It wasn't 2005, he played half-the-season? So while he was hell sitting on the bench, I wouldn't want him as my starting center that year.
Want 2009? It was Dwight...no matter what happened in the 2 game sampling.
It's a sad day for me..
[QUOTE=Timmy D for MVP]So had he gone 3rd would you still label him a bust?.[/QUOTE]
Less of one...less expectations surrounding him.
[QUOTE=Timmy D for MVP]You're saying that because he made X amount of money he was a bust. But since he brought in money his value changes X-whatever he brings in. Lets use some random numbers. Lets say 10 mil. is the amount he gets right? So if he brings in extra revenue at say 5 mil. a year then basically his contract was for 5 mil. So... yeah I'd say that's an important factor. Whether he plays or not, which again when he did he was at one point the best at his position. And it's at least arguable. [/QUOTE]
Well, there's a thing in the NBA (or there was) called a salary cap. No matter how much $$ a player brings in, the team still has to work within it. So, by taking up 12% of Hou's cap, while only playing a limited number of their games, his value is diminished--from a basketball standpoint, not a franchise value standpoint.
[QUOTE=Timmy D for MVP]I use the Hakeem example because your logic was that because there were a couple other guys who arguably were better all of the sudden he's a bust because of it? That's not how drafts work. All three guys are #1 capable.[/QUOTE]
If you are the #1 pick and not a bust -- do #1 pick things (like Hakeem, like Ewing, Like Robinson) be the best player on your franchise for a long time leading it to long period of winning on your back -- or be the best player in your draft (Kenyon Martin leaps to mind).
Otherwise-to me- you are a bust.
People just aren't meant to 7'6. it's hard to live a healthy life at that height yet alone be a dominate athlete. None of the really tall high draft picks ever live up to their potential or hype.
[img]http://www.thetallestman.com/images/shawnbradley/shawnbradley%20(15).jpg[/img]
I bet he still makes the All-Star game next season... assuming there is a season.
Sad day for the NBA.
[QUOTE=Beebo]Sad day for the NBA.[/QUOTE]
How long until his image is up on NBA.com?