[QUOTE=game3524]1996 Michael Jordan would have been shutdown, just like Kobe was in 2008.[/QUOTE]
If Wizards MJ was beating and blowing by Pierce, Allen, KG and Posey, what makes one think 96 MJ wouldn't?
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[QUOTE=game3524]1996 Michael Jordan would have been shutdown, just like Kobe was in 2008.[/QUOTE]
If Wizards MJ was beating and blowing by Pierce, Allen, KG and Posey, what makes one think 96 MJ wouldn't?
Michael Jordan
[QUOTE=game3524]See this is what I am talking about, you guys treat Jordan as if he was god. He is the best player of all-time, but he is slowly becoming the Reagan of basketball, where their is a ton revisionism.
Also those Bulls teams racked up a ton of wins in a water down league. Hell, the early 90's team was much better then the late 90's teams.[/QUOTE]
What revisionism? Since when is saying Jordan>Kobe revisionism? Since when is stating facts revisionism? I never said Jordan never made a mistake. Saying that he is better doesn't mean he's God.
Watered down league? Maybe it wasn't as strong as the early 90s or late 2000s, but its not like there was a significant difference between leagues that are only 10 years apart. Not that much has changed.
[QUOTE=game3524]Lmao, LA gets swept if Jordan plays the way he did in the 96 Finals..[/QUOTE]
I seriously doubt that. But then again, Gary Payton wasn't playing on the Celtics.
[QUOTE=andgar923]If Wizards MJ was beating and blowing by Pierce, Allen, KG and Posey, what makes one think 96 MJ would?[/QUOTE]
Because the 2008 Celtics are one of the greatest defensive teams of the modern era. This isn't 1990 MJ we are talking about, this 96 and older and slower, and easier player to defend.
MJ most likely puts up similar stats as Kobe did in 2008 Finals or worse.
[QUOTE=game3524]Because the 2008 Celtics are one of the greatest defensive teams of the modern era. This isn't 1990 MJ we are talking about, this 96 and older and slower, and easier player to defend.
MJ most likely puts up similar stats as Kobe did in 2008 Finals or worse.[/QUOTE]
Why would you think worse?
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I seriously doubt that. But then again, Gary Payton wasn't playing on the Celtics.[/QUOTE]
Tony Allen is :violin:
INB4 Payton >>>>>>>>> Allen, ofc goddammit but let not like act they have no answer for MJ. 32-34 yo MJ will spend lot of gas vs posey, Allen, Pierce rotating to guard him.
Btw I'm just saying MJ isn't god that will hit every shot especially against legendary defensive 08' celtics.
[QUOTE=guy]What revisionism? Since when is saying Jordan>Kobe revisionism? Since when is stating facts revisionism? I never said Jordan never made a mistake. Saying that he is better doesn't mean he's God.
Watered down league? Maybe it wasn't as strong as the early 90s or late 2000s, but its not like there was a significant difference between leagues that are only 10 years apart. Not that much has changed.[/QUOTE]
It is revisionism because late 90's Jordan was not a better player then peak Bryant. Peak Bryant was a better defender then late 90's Jordan, athlete, and their offensive game are pretty much a wash.
Hell, peak Bryant was more efficient then late 90's Jordan in the playoffs as well.
Mid-late 90's NBA, the league was water down thanks to expansion. Those late 90's Bull teams were great, but they weren't as good as you think.
[QUOTE=game3524]It is revisionism because late 90's Jordan was not a better player then peak Bryant. Peak Bryant was a better defender then late 90's Jordan, athlete, and their offensive game are pretty much a wash.
[/QUOTE]
LOL, other then athlete, NO. Not like he's far off, but he wasn't better at any of that.
[QUOTE=game3524]It is revisionism because late 90's Jordan was not a better player then peak Bryant. Peak Bryant was a better defender then late 90's Jordan, athlete, and their offensive game are pretty much a wash.[/quote]
Peak Bryant is from 06-08 (some argue 06-07), not 08-10...
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Why would you think worse?[/QUOTE]
Because 2008 Bryant was at or close to his peak as a player, he had the skill, IQ, and he was still a great athlete. 1996 Jordan still had his smart, but athleticism had dipped.
Seeing how Boston was able to contain Bryant, I think they would have had an easier time with an older and slower Jordan.
Now if we are talking about 88-93 Jordan, he eats Boston up alive.
[QUOTE=catch24]Peak Bryant is from 06-08 (some argue 06-07), not 08-10...[/QUOTE]
I am talking about 2008 Bryant, not 2009 or 2010.
[QUOTE=game3524]Because the 2008 Celtics are one of the greatest defensive teams of the modern era. This isn't 1990 MJ we are talking about, this 96 and older and slower, and easier player to defend.
MJ most likely puts up similar stats as Kobe did in 2008 Finals or worse.[/QUOTE]
No MJ doesn't put up the stats Kobe does, because he doesn't play like Kobe.
While they do have stylistic resemblances MJ's execution and decision making are different.
Let us go back and revisit the games.
Kobe was 'chucking' let us saying it again... CHUCKING.
And the Sonics' defense was on par if not better than the Celtics' defense. Kobe fans love to make a huge fuss about the legendary Celtics defense, but it was Kobe not playing smart. The opportunities and gaps were there, and at times he exploited them, but as I've stated repeatedly in all of my Kobe posts, it comes down to 'consistency' with Kobe. His consistency (or lack thereof) at making the proper decisions.
[QUOTE=guy]LOL, other then athlete, NO. Not like he's far off, but he wasn't better at any of that.[/QUOTE]
2008 Bryant was a better defender then 96-98 Jordan, hell 2008 may have been Bryant best defensive year since the 3-peat Lakers. And offensively they are about equal, but I give 2008 Kobe the edge since he was a better athlete then 1996-98 Jordan.
[QUOTE=andgar923]No MJ doesn't put up the stats Kobe does, because he doesn't play like Kobe.
While they do have stylistic resemblances MJ's execution and decision making are different.
Let us go back and revisit the games.
Kobe was 'chucking' let us saying it again... CHUCKING.
[B]And the Sonics' defense was on par if not better than the Celtics' defense. [/B]Kobe fans love to make a huge fuss about the legendary Celtics defense, but it was Kobe not playing smart. The opportunities and gaps were there, and at times he exploited them, but as I've stated repeatedly in all of my Kobe posts, it comes down to 'consistency' with Kobe. His consistency (or lack thereof) at making the proper decisions.[/QUOTE]
That is a load of crap, the Celtics defense was better then the 96 Sonics defense. The 2008 Celtics may be a top 10 defensive team of all-time, their set, rotations, and communication were just insane. 1996 Sonics were great, but Boston was on a different level.
[QUOTE=game3524]Because 2008 Bryant was at or close to his peak as a player, he had the skill, IQ, and he was still a great athlete. 1996 Jordan still had his smart, but athleticism had dipped.
Seeing how Boston was able to contain Bryant, I think they would have had an easier time with an older and slower Jordan.
Now if we are talking about 88-93 Jordan, he eats Boston up alive.[/QUOTE]
I think you under estimate 96 MJ....he was on a mission to that year. Maybe more than any other to prove himself again. That is where the 72 wins came from. Kerr talked about it. He said there were like 8 to 10 games the Bulls had just no business winning and that MJ just elevated his game and wouldn't let them lose.
I don't care what version of MJ it is, the idea of Ray Allen and Posey slowing MJ down like they did Kobe doesn't fly for me.
There would be no doubt who the best player on the court was in the Finals if MJ was playing. With Kobe? Not so much. That is the difference.
[QUOTE=game3524]2008 Bryant was a better defender then 96-98 Jordan, hell 2008 may have been Bryant best defensive year since the 3-peat Lakers. And offensively they are about equal, but I give 2008 Kobe the edge since he was a better athlete then 1996-98 Jordan.[/QUOTE]
2008 Bryant was a better athlete than Jordan? :wtf:
good lord please stop.
[QUOTE=DRose1899]Tony Allen is :violin:
INB4 Payton >>>>>>>>> Allen, ofc goddammit but let not like act they have no answer for MJ. 32-34 yo MJ will spend lot of gas vs posey, Allen, Pierce rotating to guard him.
Btw I'm just saying MJ isn't god that will hit every shot especially against legendary defensive 08' celtics.[/QUOTE]
Did Tony Allen even play in the 08 finals? I can't remember him doing anything of impact at all.
Prime Kobe isn't much better than Wizards Jordan. Mike put up 22.9/5.7/5.2/1.4 at 39 and 20.0/6.1/3.8/1.5 at 40.
[QUOTE=cteach111]2008 Bryant was a better athlete than Jordan? :wtf:
good lord please stop.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, he was a better athlete then 96-98 Jordan, not peak Jordan which was 88-93.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I think you under estimate 96 MJ....he was on a mission to that year. Maybe more than any other to prove himself again. That is where the 72 wins came from. Kerr talked about it. He said there were like 8 to 10 games the Bulls had just no business winning and that MJ just elevated his game and wouldn't let them lose.
I don't care what version of MJ it is, the idea of Ray Allen and Posey slowing MJ down like they did Kobe doesn't fly for me.
There would be no doubt who the best player on the court was in the Finals if MJ was playing. With Kobe? Not so much. That is the difference.[/QUOTE]
No, your just overrating 1996 Jordan, the Celtics would have contained just as well as they did Bryant, maybe even more so.
[QUOTE=game3524]I am talking about 2008 Bryant, not 2009 or 2010.[/QUOTE]
You don't think Jordan feasts on those poor defenses Kobe went through during the playoffs? Utah, Denver? Jordan would average 30/5/5 on flawless efficiency too. Jordan vs Ginobili? Come on.
2003 Jordan schooled Pierce and Posey during his tenure with the Wizards at 40 f'ing years old. You honestly believe a smarter and more athletic version of Kobe would give up a 20 point lead at home in the Finals? Does any version of MJ during the second 3-peat get trounced by 30+ in an elimination game?
Get real.
[QUOTE=game3524]That is a load of crap, the Celtics defense was better then the 96 Sonics defense. The 2008 Celtics may be a top 10 defensive team of all-time, their set, rotations, and communication were just insane. 1996 Sonics were great, but Boston was on a different level.[/QUOTE]
Overall I agree. However, the perimeter defense of the Sonics was better. Trust me, going against Payton/McMillan/Hawkins was very difficult.
There is a reason why the Sonics had such a great defense even though they really didn't have a very good defensive front line.
That team was great on defense on the perimeter. And that is exactly where MJ and Kobe play.
[QUOTE=catch24]2003 Jordan schooled Pierce and Posey during his tenure with the Wizards at 40 f'ing years old. You honestly believe a smarter and more athletic version of Kobe would give up a 20 point lead at home in the Finals? Does any version of MJ during the second 3-peat get trounced by 30+ in an elimination game?
Get real.[/QUOTE]
Don't forget Richard Jefferson. Jordan lit up the Nets for 45 on New Year's Eve 2001 and 43 in February 2003. The latter being on Jefferson.
[QUOTE=game3524]No, your just overrating 1996 Jordan, the Celtics would have contained just as well as they did Bryant, maybe even more so.[/QUOTE]
Nah, you are just over-rating the shit out of 08 Kobe. Plain and simple.
[QUOTE=catch24]You don't think Jordan feasts on those poor defenses Kobe went through during the playoffs? Utah, Denver? Jordan would average 30/5/5 on flawless efficiency too. Jordan vs Ginobili? Come on.
2003 Jordan schooled Pierce and Posey during his tenure with the Wizards at 40 f'ing years old. You honestly believe a smarter and more athletic version of Kobe would give up a 20 point lead at home in the Finals? Does any version of MJ during the second 3-peat get trounced by 30+ in an elimination game?
Get real.[/QUOTE]
I am talking about the Finals, MJ would have done well against the Western conference teams Kobe faced. I just don't MJ would have been leaps and bounds better then 2008 Bryant in the Finals. The Bulls may have won the series, since they were a better team then the 08 Lakers and 08 Celtics, but MJ performance would not be that much better then Bryant's.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Nah, you are just over-rating the shit out of 08 Kobe. Plain and simple.[/QUOTE]
It isn't overrating to suggest peak Bryant was better then past his peak Jordan.
[QUOTE=D.J.]Don't forget Richard Jefferson. Jordan lit up the Nets for 45 on New Year's Eve 2001 and 43 in February 2003. The latter being on Jefferson.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, both were great games
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI0l3GkvGuU[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bSZSwWqum8[/url]
We're discussing what Jordan would/wouldn't do vs Boston, though.
[QUOTE=game3524]It isn't overrating to suggest peak Bryant was better then past his peak Jordan.[/QUOTE]
It is when you say 96 MJ would do worse. Do you really think 96 MJ would ever stop on the court in the Finals with the likes of Paul Pierce and at the end of the series most people would agree that Pierce was the better player in the series?
Hell no.
Maybe the Lakers lose, but they don't go down the way Kobe did. No ****ing way any Bulls version of MJ walks onto the Finals court with Paul Pierce and doesn't come away making sure we all know who the superior player is.
And again, if Kobe does that....maybe the Lakers win. It was a lot closer than you think.
[QUOTE=game3524]I am talking about the Finals, MJ would have done well against the Western conference teams Kobe faced. I just don't MJ would have been leaps and bounds better then 2008 Bryant in the Finals. The Bulls may have won the series, since they were a better team then the 08 Lakers and 08 Celtics, but MJ performance would not be that much better then Bryant's.[/QUOTE]
Leaps and bounds better? Probably not ... but no Jordan-led team is giving up a 20 point lead during the Finals completely being shutdown and out played by Paul Pierce (nevermind losing by 30+ in an elimination game).
[QUOTE=catch24]You don't think Jordan feasts on those poor defenses Kobe went through during the playoffs? Utah, Denver? Jordan would average 30/5/5 on flawless efficiency too. Jordan vs Ginobili? Come on.
2003 Jordan schooled Pierce and Posey during his tenure with the Wizards at 40 f'ing years old. You honestly believe a smarter and more athletic version of Kobe would give up a 20 point lead at home in the Finals? Does any version of MJ during the second 3-peat get trounced by 30+ in an elimination game?
Get real.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you that prime Jordan would obviously do better than Kobe, but I don't see how Jordan's numbers against Pierce and Posey are relevant because A) it was in the regular season and B) they didn't have KG and Perkins in the front court to help them.
[QUOTE=LA_Showtime]I agree with you that prime Jordan would obviously do better than Kobe, but I don't see how Jordan's numbers against Pierce and Posey are relevant because A) it was in the regular season and B) they didn't have KG and Perkins in the front court to help them.[/QUOTE]
this isn't prime Jordan. this is 96-98..
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]It is when you say 96 MJ would do worse. Do you really think 96 MJ would ever stop on the court in the Finals with the likes of Paul Pierce and at the end of the series most people would agree that Pierce was the better player in the series?
Hell no.
Maybe the Lakers lose, but they don't go down the way Kobe did. No ****ing way any Bulls version of MJ walks onto the Finals court with Paul Pierce and doesn't come away making sure we all know who the superior player is.[/QUOTE]
See, this is the crap I am talking about. You guys are turning MJ into some mythical figure.
I can understand this dick-sucking if it was peak Jordan, but mid-late 90's.....nah.
[QUOTE=LA_Showtime]I agree with you that prime Jordan would obviously do better than Kobe, but I don't see how Jordan's numbers against Pierce and Posey are relevant because A) it was in the regular season and B) they didn't have KG and Perkins in the front court to help them.[/QUOTE]
Point taken. '96 wasn't Jordan in his prime though, and he just doesn't settle for jumpshots the way Kobe did that series. Jordan would have found a way to get through the seams or live at the FT line.
[QUOTE=game3524]See, this is the crap I am talking about. You guys are turning MJ into some mythical figure.
I can understand this dick-sucking if it was peak Jordan, but mid-late 90's.....nah.[/QUOTE]
Its turning MJ into a mythical figure to think that he wouldn't let PP upstage him on the biggest stage in basketball?
Really?
[QUOTE=cteach111]this isn't prime Jordan. this is 96-98..[/QUOTE]
okay, whatever, jordan from 96-98. any version of jordan is better than any version of kobe whether we're comparing their prime years, tail end years, rookie seasons, etc.
[QUOTE=LA_Showtime]okay, whatever, jordan from 96-98. [B]any version of jordan is better than any version of kobe[/B] whether we're comparing their prime years, tail end years, rookie seasons, etc.[/QUOTE]
disagree
now Kobe'tards are going to another extreme.
Wizards Jordan is NOT better than '05-'10 Kobe.
[QUOTE=gengiskhan]disagree
now Kobe'tards are going to another extreme.
Wizards Jordan is NOT better than '05-'10 Kobe.[/QUOTE]
... did you even read the part after you bolded? :oldlol:
wizards jordan is obviously not better than prime kobe, but when comparing prime vs. prime, rookie vs. rookie, tail end vs. tail end, etc. than jordan obviously comes out on top. was it that hard to understand?
Kobe has never been as good as 1996 Jordan - let's just get that out of the way. And he only has two seasons where he was roughly on par with '97 Jordan, and that's 2006 and 2007. Not '08-'10, and if so then ONLY 2008.
Kobe up to 2008 was equal to or better than 1998 Jordan. Not 2009 or 2010 Kobe though.
Also, anyone who's suggesting that '08-'10 Kobe had a larger defensive impact on games than Jordan needs to get their head examined. No way. Kobe has perhaps 2-3 years IN HIS CAREER where his defensive impact was on par with even 1998 Jordan, and none of those seasons are after 2005. Jordan's team/help defense was WORLDS beyond Kobe's and his man D was still comparable/superior, and team/help D is the largest component of overall defensive impact.
[COLOR="White"]in before eliteballer's Doc Rivers' quote[/COLOR]
You're telling me 07 Kobe, with ten 50 point games and 37 PPG post All-Star break average once he got his legs conditioned isnt as good as 96 Jordan? Right:oldlol:
No sheer coincidence how Jordan's effectiveness dropped as soon as the real 3 point line was reinstituted...