kobe>bird

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Don`t forget to mention The Team`s Bird Faced in the difficult 80s.

Don`t forget about Gary Payton, Glen Rice, Karl Malone etc that played with Kobe as a 2nd Fiddle To Shaq

Don`t forget to mention Gasol : a Future HOF, Bynum and Odom: Best Sixth Man: A Big 3.[/B][/QUOTE]


Who Bird faced isn't the issue. The point is, he played with 4 other HOFers, on the same team, at the same time, while in his prime.

Kobe played with Payton (35), Rice (31,32) and Malone (40) while they were at the ass end of their careers. The only Celtic comparable to that, is Walton. Leave him off, and there are still 3 HOF players, with Bird, in their primes. Parish, from 27 to 32. McHale, 23-28. Johnson, 26-13. So please, don't come at me with that corny ass argument about Rice, Payton and Malone when each one was past their best years and Bird had his teammates in their absolute primes.



Its funny how when people downplay Kobe, its because, "he played on a stacked team and thats the only reason he won any title".

Yet, somehow, Bird and Magic get a pass for playing on truly stacked teams. Their all time ranking never suffers one bit either. I love the hypocrisy.


So, with that, eat a turd.

[QUOTE=catch24]To add onto that, DMAVS41 - I don't think people are "morons" for ranking Kobe>Bird all-time. I do think they're knowledge of Bird's career is lacking though. More often than not, the people that do rank Kobe ahead of Bird are trolls and/or have limited perspective.[/QUOTE]

I know about Bird's career. A lifelong hoops fan that was reading Basketball Digest at age 8 when the other kids were reading little kids books. And for me I go with Kobe. That doesn't mean I don't know about Bird's career. Kobe can dominate both sides of the ball in a manner Bird can't. And on a GOAT list, Bryant has already arguably passed Bird by. You can't deny Kobe's accomplishments. But if someone said Bird I can dig it and WON'T doubt their knowledge. Unless they say some dumb shit.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I agree with Bird over Kobe, but you acted like its absurd to rank Kobe over Bird all time. It really isn't.....depending on what criteria is used.

Agree to disagree.[/QUOTE]

[I]Right now[/I] I do think it would be kind of absurd. So because Kobe has 2 more titles and "better defense" (defense that he hasn't played in how many years now?), people want to rank him ahead of the greatest SF ever?

Doesn't make any sense to me, dude.

[QUOTE=catch24]And shot 40%, missing 20+ shots a game.[/QUOTE]

Same like Kobe's overall finals.:oldlol:

If a guy puts more than 35 ppg on finals, rest is just making excuses.

[QUOTE=RRR3]T-Mac had more raw talent than Kobe.[/QUOTE]

U can say that! But that's because Mac had many of Kobe's skills in a 6'10 body. But that if Mac were 6'6 that would make a difference. But its not a stretch to say Kobe has more raw talent than T Mac either.

[QUOTE=bizil]I know about Bird's career. A lifelong hoops fan that was reading Basketball Digest at age 8 when the other kids were reading little kids books. And for me I go with Kobe. That doesn't mean I don't know about Bird's career. Kobe can dominate both sides of the ball in a manner Bird can't. And on a GOAT list, Bryant has already arguably passed Bird by. You can't deny Kobe's accomplishments. But if someone said Bird I can dig it and WON'T doubt their knowledge. Unless they say some dumb shit.[/QUOTE]


Heres a prime example of someone saying dumb shit,


"Don`t forget about Gary Payton, Glen Rice, Karl Malone etc that played with Kobe as a 2nd Fiddle To Shaq"


Yea, because a group of guys who were in their 30s and one who was actually 40 years old, compares to a group of guys who were in their 20s when they played with eachother.

[QUOTE=bizil]I know about Bird's career. A lifelong hoops fan that was reading Basketball Digest at age 8 when the other kids were reading little kids books. And for me I go with Kobe. That doesn't mean I don't know about Bird's career. Kobe can dominate both sides of the ball in a manner Bird can't. And on a GOAT list, Bryant has already arguably passed Bird by. You can't deny Kobe's accomplishments. But if someone said Bird I can dig it and WON'T doubt their knowledge. Unless they say some dumb shit.[/QUOTE]

I disagree somewhat. Kobe was a great defender during his peak/prime, but what about the last few years (making unjustified all-defensive teams over Wade), where people like to credit him for playing longer than Bird? At what point do you actually start breaking down and gauging individual play? Kobe should be applauded for playing longer despite performing/playing like a shell of his former self? During his prime, Bird was better than Kobe on the offensive end due to his play-making ability while simultaneously playing good-to-great defense (evident by his steals/blocks/all-defensive teams; difference is they were justified). So, I'm not sure what you meant by Bird not doing it in the manner Kobe could.

[QUOTE=rodman91]Same like Kobe's overall finals.:oldlol: [/QUOTE]

I never claimed Kobe was "raping" anyone, much less in the Finals.

We were talking about Kobe 'shutting down' players (like Iverson), [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyLg15UIRLY"]and he did[/URL]

[QUOTE=The Iron Fist]Who Bird faced isn't the issue. The point is, he played with 4 other HOFers, on the same team, at the same time, while in his prime.

Kobe played with Payton (35), Rice (31,32) and Malone (40) while they were at the ass end of their careers. The only Celtic comparable to that, is Walton. Leave him off, and there are still 3 HOF players, with Bird, in their primes. Parish, from 27 to 32. McHale, 23-28. Johnson, 26-13. So please, don't come at me with that corny ass argument about Rice, Payton and Malone when each one was past their best years and Bird had his teammates in their absolute primes.



Its funny how when people downplay Kobe, its because, "he played on a stacked team and thats the only reason he won any title".

Yet, somehow, Bird and Magic get a pass for playing on truly stacked teams. Their all time ranking never suffers one bit either. I love the hypocrisy.


So, with that, eat a turd.[/QUOTE]

Exactly right! I've seen games where the Lakers have Magic, Scott (criminally underrated and easily an All Star SG), Worthy, McAdoo, and Kareem on the floor together. That's sick right there having a guy like McAdoo coming off your bench. The Lakers, Celtics, Sixers, and many teams of that era had stacked deck teams. Meaning having 4-5 All Star (or some teams HOFers) on a team. It's not like that these days.

Kobe plays with one HOFer in his prime in Shaq people had the nerve to say Kobe was just a Robin. If anything it was Superman-Batman or Batman-Batman however u wanna put it.

[B]The Iron Fist[/B]

78-79 Celtics, some of them;
30 year old Dave Cowens
23 year old Cedric Maxwell
30 year old Chris Ford
30 year old Tiny Archibald
32 year old Jo-Jo White
27 year old Bob McAdoo (for 20 games)
Team Record: 29-53

---

In 1979-80 season, Bird joined Boston Celtics and their record was 61-21 for Bird's rookie season.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1979.html[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1980.html[/url]

Now, shut up.

[QUOTE=catch24]I disagree somewhat. Kobe was a great defender during his peak/prime, but what about the last few years (where he's been making unjustified all-defensive teams over Wade), where people like to credit him for playing longer than Bird? At what point do people actually start breaking down and gauging individual play? Kobe should be applauded by playing longer despite playing like a shell of former self? During his prime, Bird was easily better than Kobe on the offensive end due to his play-making, and simultaneously played good-to-great defense (evident by his steals/blocks/all-defensive-teams; difference is they were justified). So I'm not sure what you meant by Bird not doing it in the manner Kobe could?[/QUOTE]

I'm talking on an island and you have Jordan, Nique, or Bernard King with the ball, who do u want guarding them. Kobe or Bird? Easily Kobe. I'm not talking about the last couple of years for Kobe. I'm talking at his best. That would be like me pointing out Bird laying on his stomach and looking worse than Kobe EVER has. And I wouldn't say Kobe is a shell of his former self. He hasn't fallen off HARD like ya boy Bird yet. As a matter of fact, Kobe is gonna come back better than many people think. Watch and see!

Kobe at his best was a great all around player as well. Kobe has put up 6 assists seasons before. But I can dig Bird with the passing and rebounding edge though. But on a GOAT list, Kobe has the accomplishments to pass Bird by, if he hasn't already. I don't know why this is such a bitter pill to swallow for many. But as far as a player, if one says Bird over Kobe then no argument. Even though I disagree.

[QUOTE=RRR3]I disagree. Kobe always struck me as a guy who got the most out of his ability (though he had a shitload of natural talent to be sure). T-Mac not so much, he kind of seemed to get by on his talent alone.[/QUOTE]

I see what u are saying and agree with u! It did seem that Mac did get by huge on talent. But might not have got the most outta it. It seemed like Mac had a killer instinct and wanted to be the best player at the time. But Kobe was like a mass murderer instinct and wanted to be the best ever! Great point!

[QUOTE=bizil]I'm talking on an island and you have Jordan, Nique, or Bernard King with the ball, who do u want guarding them. Kobe or Bird? Easily Kobe. I'm not talking about the last couple of years for Kobe.[/quote]

I want Kobe defending. On the flip side of that coin, who would you want finding a teammate and/or scoring the GW basket, Kobe or Bird?

17ppg with piss-poor defense vs. Dallas says otherwise. Now, I'm not saying Kobe won't come back next season and tear shit up (I hope he does), but facts are facts.

[quote]I don't know why this is such a bitter pill to swallow for many.[/quote]

Because it's totally unjustified. Bird was an all-around better player and postseason performer with SLIGHTLY less accomplishments (given the context, i.e., who he did it against and what ERA he did it in).

I just don't see it. In a couple years? Possibly; really just depends what Kobe does from here on out.

[QUOTE=catch24]I never claimed Kobe was "raping" anyone, much less in the Finals.

We were talking about Kobe 'shutting down' players (like Iverson), [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyLg15UIRLY"]and he did[/URL][/QUOTE]

Iverson wasn't good example about shutting down since they tried tyron lue on him after 1st half at biggest stage in NBA.

Anyway, Afro Kobe was a good defender..He had athletism,focus and will.I just dont put him in best "shut down defenders" list.

Also while defensive edge is on Kobe, i don't find it can fill the gaps between him and Bird when you consider other aspects of game.

Bird was much better rebounder,passer,shooter..better court vision, IQ.Also better individual stats & awards.

Better athletism and defense at Kobe's side.

give me bird by an inch.

hes a much better rebounder, regardless of pace (bird: 14.5 TRB% > kobe:8.2TRB%)

hes a more efficeint scorer, and he can play with great players, he has the versatility on the court and the mentality to co-exist with great players. this is something kobe doesnt have.

kobe's a better defender and iso scorer, but that doesnt close the gap enough for it to be a contest for me.

[QUOTE=chips93]give me bird by an inch.

hes a much better rebounder, regardless of pace (bird: 14.5 TRB% > kobe:8.2TRB%)

[B]hes a more efficeint scorer, and he can play with great players, he has the versatility on the court and the mentality to co-exist with great players. this is something kobe doesnt have.[/B]

kobe's a better defender and iso scorer, but that doesnt close the gap enough for it to be a contest for me.[/QUOTE]

last time I checked winning 5 rings involve some pretty good teammates. Kobe has done it better than Bird.

[QUOTE=rodman91]Iverson wasn't good example about shutting down[/quote]

Of course it was. "Zaza" claimed he's never seen Kobe shut-down players like Iverson; he was wrong. Since when was the criteria in the playoffs/Finals or even multiple games? That's right, it wasn't.

Admit it; you posted a pic that had absolutely nothing to do with my link or post.

[QUOTE=RRR3]So you admit Kobe didn't win by himself? Good, you're learning.[/QUOTE]

you can't play 1 on 5. If Kobe had to, he probably can.

It's against NBA rules. I believe you have to have 5 on the floor and no bench.

[QUOTE=RRR3]:facepalm Against who? The Timberwolves? LOL[/QUOTE]

He did against the NBA Champions, Dallas Mavericks, years ago when he outscored the whole team.

At the pace he was going, he probably could have beat a NBA team.

[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]25.3ppg, 5.3rpg, 4.7apg on 45%
24.3ppg, 10rpg, 6.3apg on 50%
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=bizil]I'm just keeping it real and Kobe is the closest thing to MJ. MJ is better than Bird. And Kobe is close enough to MJ. So Kobe is better than Bird too.[/QUOTE]

That's some logic there.

[QUOTE=TheLogo][B]I [U]know[/U] you must be lonely[/B] and want to start debating to kill time but [B]any true basketball fan will tell you that Kobe is better than Bird[/B].
[/QUOTE]

Maybe you should let others speak for themselves.

[QUOTE=TheLogo][B]People [U]know[/U] Kobe is better than Bird.[/B][/QUOTE]

It's amazing what you [U]know[/U].

[QUOTE=bizil] [B]Kobe is close enough to MJ's level[/B] for me to pick Kobe over Bird. [/QUOTE]

Again, that's some logic there. Kobe is a pale imitation of MJ.

RS
MJ 30.1pts / 6.2 reb / 5.3 asst / 2.3 stl on 50% FG
Kobe 25.3 pts / 5.3 reb / 4.7 asst / 1.5 stl on 45% FG

Playoffs
MJ 33.4 pts / 6.4 reb / 5.7 asst on 49%FG
Kobe 25.4 pts / 5.1 reb / 4.8 asst on 45% FG

6 rings as the man > 2 rings as the man
5 MVPs > 1 MVP
6 FMVPs > 2 FMVPs
10 scoring champ > 2
1 DPOY > 0

Robert parish is a hof but no way is he a top 50 player. If we take the top 10 guys from each of the 5 positions, parish ain't getting in the centers club and Dj won't make it in the sg club.

Mchale was the only buddy bird had in the top 50 and he is 30ish at best.

Kobe played with a prime toP 5 center

Kareem played with the no 1 and no 2 PGs of all time.

The reason we rank bird so high because he did it without having team mates in the top 30.

[QUOTE=Big164]Robert parish is a hof but no way is he a top 50 player. If we take the top 10 guys from each of the 5 positions, parish ain't getting in the centers club and Dj won't make it in the sg club.

Mchale was the only buddy bird had in the top 50 and he is 30ish at best.

Kobe played with a prime toP 5 center

Kareem played with the no 1 and no 2 PGs of all time.

The reason we rank bird so high because he did it without having team mates in the top 30.[/QUOTE]

Is Pau Gasol a Top 50 player?

[B][U]Reasons why Bird is clearly BETTER than Kobe[/U][/B]

[B]Bird clearly more CLUTCH performer[/B] (PO clutchness, steal to win series etc etc) [B]& arguably the most clutch player ever to play the game.
[/B]
[B]Bird clearly more efficient scorer[/B] (Knew how to play off the ball brilliantly, positioning himself) scores lot more easily. takes 1/2 a second to get a proper shot off.

[B]Bird clearly has better intangibles, Bball IQ, Court Vision[/B] (makes team mates much better, presence on the court makes whole team better)

[B]Bird Much better Passer & playmaker & probably 2nd best ever after Magic Johnson.[/B] his passing so effortless

[B]Kobe clearly better defender than Bird[/B]

Bird is so much better than Kobe. Its not even close.

[B][SIZE="4"]Bird guaranteed Top 5 GOAT who transformed NBA forever.

Kobe guaranteed Top 15 GOAT with highest position at 12th.[/SIZE][/B]

Kobe just lacks the impact Bird had.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan][B][U]Reasons why Bird is clearly BETTER than Kobe[/U][/B]

[B]Bird clearly more CLUTCH performer[/B] (PO clutchness, steal to win series etc etc) [B]& arguably the most clutch player ever to play the game.
[/B]
[B]Bird clearly more efficient scorer[/B] (Knew how to play off the ball brilliantly, positioning himself) scores lot more easily. takes 1/2 a second to get a proper shot off.

[B]Bird clearly has better intangibles, Bball IQ, Court Vision[/B] (makes team mates much better, presence on the court makes whole team better)

[B]Bird Much better Passer & playmaker & probably 2nd best ever after Magic Johnson.[/B] his passing so effortless

[B]Kobe clearly better defender than Bird[/B]

Bird is so much better than Kobe. Its not even close.

[B][SIZE="4"]Bird guaranteed Top 5 GOAT who transformed NBA forever.

[COLOR="Red"]Kobe guaranteed Top 15 GOAT with highest position at 12th.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]

Kobe just lacks the impact Bird had.[/QUOTE]

this might add 10 pages alone:D

Almost everyone who has a modicum of intellect agrees that Bird>Kobe, at least at this point of Kobe's career.

at what? raping white girls? you f ucking fa99ot

[QUOTE=Mr. I'm So Rad]Is Pau Gasol a Top 50 player?[/QUOTE]
Pau is worth more than parish ainge or dj for sure. Has time to surpass mchale which would make him top 50.

Kobe played with better guys, he's basically the Robert horry of the top 10.

[QUOTE=Big164]Pau is worth more than parish ainge or dj for sure. Has time to surpass mchale which would make him top 50.

Kobe played with better guys, he's basically the Robert horry of the top 10.[/QUOTE]

But the reality is Kobe aint Top 10 by any stretch. 1 consolidation MVP + 2 Finals MVPs out of 7 NBA Finals in 15 season after playing for winningest franchise like Lakers just aint enough.

could've worked if played for Bulls, sixers, rockets or even hornets that drafted him.

give me Bird

[QUOTE=RRR3]So LeBron didn't shut down Derrick Rose? :roll:[/QUOTE]
no he didnt actually

[QUOTE=Big164]Pau is worth more than parish ainge or dj for sure. Has time to surpass mchale which would make him top 50.

Kobe played with better guys, he's basically the Robert horry of the top 10.[/QUOTE]

Is he Top 50 right now? Or when the Lakers won their last two titles?

[QUOTE=RRR3]Michael Jordan says hi.[/QUOTE]

in terms of sheer clutchness, Bird & MJ are neck to neck.

Bird got the shot off better at less than 1/2 a second & made many of them.

MJ got the shot off more artistically at less than second & made many.

If I have 0.4 secs left for catch & shoot, Bird should be picked over MJ easily.

If I have 0.9 secs left for catch & shoot, Pick either. both are clutch winners.

btw, ignore kobe'tards in subsequent posts who'll say "pick kobe" (just remind them 2011 dallas vs lakers, game 1 with tons of time left for buzzer brick kobe laid with no hand in his face.)

[QUOTE=imlmf]at what? raping white girls? you f ucking fa99ot[/QUOTE]

LOL I farted

[QUOTE=catch24]If Kobe were to retire today, I'd be prone to rank him below Bird. Some people may value titles and other various intangibles differently than me, but from what I've seen from their games and the information I've gathered, I just can't fathom how Kobe would be ahead of Bird (even WITH the differences I just spoke of). Bird was more dominant (evident by his MVPs and playoff performances), lead three teams to championships against some of the GREATEST teams ever assembled, was more clutch, had less blemishes in his career (be it in do-or-die situations or flat-out just playing inconsistent basketball), etc. I can go on, but you get the picture.

I just don't see it - so no, I couldn't understand.[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I agree with Bird over Kobe, but you acted like its absurd to rank Kobe over Bird all time. It really isn't.....depending on what criteria is used.

Agree to disagree.[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=catch24][I]Right now[/I] I do think it would be kind of absurd. So because Kobe has 2 more titles and "better defense" (defense that he hasn't played in how many years now?), people want to rank him ahead of the greatest SF ever?

Doesn't make any sense to me, dude.[/QUOTE]

Bird has a career Player Efficiency Rating (PER) of 23.5. Kobe Bryant has a career player efficiency rating of 23.6. You might think the difference is negligible, but remember Kobe came into the league as a 17-year-old. He didn’t play much his rookie or sophomore year – two years in which he posted PERs under 20. Kobe Bryant’s playoff PER average is exactly at 22.0, while Bird’s is only 21.4. Again, Kobe’s Player Efficiency Rating is higher, despite coming into the league much earlier than Larry Bird and having limited minutes in his first three years. PER, is not the dispositive factor in who is a better player, but it does eliminate the idea that “Bird was just flat-out better than Kobe.”

All star games: Kobe has 12; Bird, 12.

All-NBA First Teams: Kobe has 8; Bird has 9.

All-NBA Team total selections: Kobe has 12 and Bird has 10

So far, Bird and Kobe are as close as they come, but where Kobe truly surpasses Bird is on the defensive end. Kobe Bryant is one of the all-time great defenders. While many fans think that Bryant’s defensive reputation is overrated, the coaches of the NBA have nine times put Kobe on the All-Defensive Team.

MVPs: Bird has 2 over Kobe, but in reality that is the weakest argument one can make for Bird. First, Bird won in '84, '85 and '86. Who else was going to win? It was either going to be Magic or Bird in the '80s. There was no one else until Jordan came along' and even then it took a while for the Bulls to become good enough for Michael to warrant MVP consideration.
Politics and personality robbed Kobe of a few MVP awards.


Bird was a better shooter. Kobe is a flat out scorer.

1. better longevity: Kobe
2. better overall talent: Kobe
3. better scorer: Kobe
4. better defender: Kobe
5. better clutch: Tie

Larry Bird's drive and desire to win was insane. It is reminescent of Kobe's.

VERY CLOSE.

I have no problem with anyone ranking them, along with Hakeem, in any order from 8th thru 10th.

[QUOTE=rmt]That's some logic there.



Maybe you should let others speak for themselves.


[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/editor/menupop.gif[/url]
It's amazing what you [U]know[/U].



Again, that's some logic there. Kobe is a pale imitation of MJ.

RS
MJ 30.1pts / 6.2 reb / 5.3 asst / 2.3 stl on 50% FG
Kobe 25.3 pts / 5.3 reb / 4.7 asst / 1.5 stl on 45% FG

[/QUOTE]

LOL stupid way to compare them. Kobe at age 21 and on(same age Jordan came into the league) has been averaging 28/6/5/1 on 46%..thats 12 years of averaging that as a starter...

"hey it makes a lot of sense to compare Kobe's career averages to the GOATS when we know he came off the bench his first few years! It fits our agenda!!!!" lmao

[QUOTE=jlauber]VERY CLOSE.

I have no problem with anyone ranking them, along with Hakeem, in any order from 8th thru 10th.[/QUOTE]

Agreed

You could rank Bird, Kobe, Duncan and even Hakeem in any order.

I have Bird ahead of Kobe right now but that could change by the time Kobe calls it a day.

[QUOTE=All Net]Agreed

You could rank Bird, Kobe, Duncan and even Hakeem in any order.

I have Bird ahead of Kobe right now but that could change by the time Kobe calls it a day.[/QUOTE]

100% agreed.

:cheers:

[QUOTE=G-Funk]Bird has a career Player Efficiency Rating (PER) of 23.5. Kobe Bryant has a career player efficiency rating of 23.6. You might think the difference is negligible, but remember Kobe came into the league as a 17-year-old. He didn’t play much his rookie or sophomore year – two years in which he posted PERs under 20.

Kobe Bryant’s playoff PER average is exactly at 22.0, while Bird’s is only 21.4. Again, Kobe’s Player Efficiency Rating is higher, despite coming into the league much earlier than Larry Bird and having limited minutes in his first three years.

PER, is not the dispositive factor in who is a better player, but it does eliminate the idea that “Bird was just flat-out better than Kobe.”

All star games: Kobe has 1[B][COLOR="Red"]3[/COLOR][/B]; Bird, 12.

All-NBA First Teams: Kobe has [B][COLOR="Red"]9[/COLOR][/B]; Bird has 9.

All-NBA Team total selections: Kobe has 1[B][COLOR="Red"]1[/COLOR] (he actually has 13 total, but All-NBA 3rd team wasn't around till 1989)[/B] and Bird has 10

So far, Bird and Kobe are as close as they come, but where Kobe truly surpasses Bird is on the defensive end. Kobe Bryant is one of the all-time great defenders. While many fans think that Bryant’s defensive reputation is overrated, the coaches of the NBA have nine times put Kobe on the All-Defensive Team.

MVPs: Bird has 2 over Kobe, but in reality that is the weakest argument one can make for Bird. First, Bird won in '84, '85 and '86. Who else was going to win? It was either going to be Magic or Bird in the '80s. There was no one else until Jordan came along' and even then it took a while for the Bulls to become good enough for Michael to warrant MVP consideration.
Politics and personality robbed Kobe of a few MVP awards.


Bird was a better shooter. Kobe is a flat out scorer.

1. better longevity: Kobe
2. better overall talent: Kobe
3. better scorer: Kobe
4. better defender: Kobe
5. better clutch: Tie

Larry Bird's drive and desire to win was insane. It is reminescent of Kobe's.[/QUOTE]
Fixed for you.

[QUOTE=All Net]Agreed

[B]You could rank Bird, Kobe, Duncan and even Hakeem in any order.[/B][/QUOTE]
One of those four is simply not as good as the others. "Rank in any order" is for guys who were on the same basic level as each other, and Kobe just...isn't.