Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

Overrated? He's underrated if anything. 20 PPG, above average defensively, consistent and reliable, clutch, and a good hustle guy. But, playing with Magic and Kareem will do that. For someone that was putting up 20/6/3 regularly, he sure didn't get much recognition.

[QUOTE=oolalaa]That is simply not true. Dantley is a great illustration of why the way in which you score your points can be almost as important as the amount you score.

As you mentioned, he was a 6"5 (at the very most. I've heard people say he was actually closer to 6"3) post player. He was nicknamed 'the black hole'. That should tell you all everything you need to know. When he got the ball in the post it never came out (partly because he was a poor passer) and he often used up a lot of time on the clock.

In his 5 highest scoring seasons, his teams records were 24-58, 28-54, 25-57, 45-37 & 42-40. In 1982, with dantley pouring in 30.3 ppg on 57%, the Jazz were 25-57. [B]The very next season, with dantley missing 3 quarters of the season with torn wrist ligaments, they improved to 30-52. WHAT??[/B]

Dantley was a product of his era.[/QUOTE]

Dantley was the Pistons top scorer when the Pistons traded him for Aguirre. Aguirre did not score as much as Dantley was scoring, but you know what happened? The Pistons offense improved and they scored more points per game. [URL="http://www.bizofbasketball.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=536:adrian-dantley-mystery-man&catid=42:articles-a-opinion&Itemid=57"]They went 31-6 after the trade.[/URL] Their winning percentage before the trade was .711, after the trade it was .838

Daly wanted Dantley out of there because he was choking the flow of the offense, by dribbling and dribbling and slowly trying to back his man down. When he passed the ball it was often with just a few seconds in the shot clock. There is a reason the Pistons won the title the year they traded Dantley. Aguirre could move the ball.

[QUOTE]Aguirre was a little bigger than Dantley but--more importantly--he could play in the post with his back to the basket and either score or else draw a double team and make the correct pass leading either to an open shot or else one more ball reversal that resulted in an open shot on the weak side (Aguirre delivered a lot of what would now be termed "hockey assists"). [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Kovach]Yes and? That wouldn't make him immune to a possible and, considering the circumstances, very probable loss of motivation.

Worthy was not the same player in 92 as he was in the seasons prior by any stretch of imagination, one only really needs a functional set of eyes (focused on the games instead of b-r.com) to be able to comprehend that. Of course, you are a guy who takes pleasure in using past-prime, injury-ridden seasons players had against them (unless of course the player in question happens to be Pippen) so it doesn't really matter to you. Heck, you were even using the 93/94 season when he was barely walking to make some silly, meaningless points against him.[/QUOTE]
Unless you can provide a statement of him saying magics retirement hurt him emotionally to the point that he did his job half-assed I'm calling BS. I do agree it effected him due to him not being the recipient of about 3-4 layups per game thanx to magic.

The difference between worthy and pippen is that pippen was 34-35 years old. Worthy was 30.

To be honest, you need to stop arguing for worthy. If I didn't know any better, id be led to believe worthy was a paraplegic and emotionally weak, player incapable of functioning without magic johnson, based on your view on what james worthy was at 30 years old.

97 shut your adolescent mouth. Worthy went in deep playoff runs every year of his career and physically broke down at the end of his career, and even on a bum leg in the 91 Finals was giving it to Pippen in the post on the regular.

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]Dantley was the Pistons top scorer when the Pistons traded him for Aguirre. Aguirre did not score as much as Dantley was scoring, but you know what happened? The Pistons offense improved and they scored more points per game. [URL="http://www.bizofbasketball.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=536:adrian-dantley-mystery-man&catid=42:articles-a-opinion&Itemid=57"]They went 31-6 after the trade.[/URL] Their winning percentage before the trade was .711, after the trade it was .838

Daly wanted Dantley out of there because he was choking the flow of the offense, by dribbling and dribbling and slowly trying to back his man down. When he passed the ball it was often with just a few seconds in the shot clock. There is a reason the Pistons won the title the year they traded Dantley. Aguirre could move the ball.[/QUOTE]

You couldn't argue with the results of that Dantley trade, however, there are those Piston fans who believed that Detroit would have won a title with Dantley instead of Aguirre. In fact, they claim that Thomas was behind the trade, and that he was freezing Dantley out of the offense. And there were Detroit players that were not happy with that trade, too. As for Aguirre, his Dallas teammates would have paid to ship him out. He was never the player that Dantley was, and his contributions to the Pistons was considerably less.

[url]http://www.pistonpowered.com/2010/12/looking-back-would-the-detroit-pistons-have-still-won-a-nba-title-if-they-didnt-trade-adrian-dantley-for-mark-aguirre/[/url]

[QUOTE][B]Dantley was a huge part of the Pistons becoming a title contender in the 1980s.[/B] In Detroit

10-24-2011, 05:38 AM * #3
Kobe 4 The Win
Legendary NBA Expert
*

*
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Earth
Posts: 480

Re: Classic Confrontations: James Worthy vs Dennis Rodman
In his last book Rodman said of Worthy....

"I'm one of the best defensive players of all time and I couldn't guard his ass."

"He would be coming off of a screen and I'd be trying to figure out whether he was going over the top or underneath. Next thing I knew, he was at the rim."

"There was nothing but Frustration with James Worthy. Clever, quick, a great player-he's one of the few guys who flat pissed me off. I want him on my team just so I don't have to guard him."
Last edited by Kobe 4 The Win : 10-24-2011 at 05:43 AM.
*

Worthy had the fastest first step in NBA HISTORY. Right now it's Melo but Worthy was clearly much quicker with his first step. Just beautiful to watch and he was excellent at finishing on the break. Super competitor and also great in big games, hence the nickname.

I apologize for bumping an old thread but I have completely forgotten about it.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Unless you can provide a statement of him saying magics retirement hurt him emotionally to the point that he did his job half-assed I'm calling BS.
[/QUOTE]
I don't need any, I drew my conclusion from the fact that he is a freakin human being. Perhaps you have forgotten what a major deal HIV was at the time.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]
I do agree it effected him due to him not being the recipient of about 3-4 layups per game thanx to magic.
[/QUOTE]
If you truly believe healthy and motivated Worthy wouldn't be able to compensate for that you are either delusional or have never seen him play. You are aware we are talking about the guy who was the ultimate matchup nightmare, right? You are aware that NOBODY in the bloody league could guard him at the time, right? Teams used to throw every single SF and PF on their roster at him, and he would still score close to 20, by half-time. Countless of times he would score 12-15 in the first quarter alone and then simply pass the ball to his teammates for remainder of the game. He could score at will, literally, and no defender could ever do anything about it. The guy used to make a mockery out of the infamous Bad Boys defense almost every single time they matched up for crying out loud. The notion that a healthy Worthy wouldn't be at least a 25ppg player on a less talented team is just absurd.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]
The difference between worthy and pippen is that pippen was 34-35 years old. Worthy was 30.
[/QUOTE]
When your knees give up they give up, who cares if it happens by the age of 30 or 4-5 years later? Doesn't make him any less of a player. By the age of 30 he did more than enough to warrant himself a place among the 50 greatest.

To those so certain Nique was a superior player, have you ever seen a game between those 2? Worthy actually was able to contain Nique to some extent, on the other hand Nique attempting to guard Worthy was, to put it lightly, comical. Same goes for English and Aguirre.

As for his low ppg, why does everyone seem to forget that besides Magic and Kareem, Worthy had to "compete" for points with yet another 20 ppg player on that team? He was even the teams top scorer in one of Worthy's prime years if I'm not mistaken. He used to play a shooting guard, look him up.

As for his low rpg, kind of hard to grab boards when you job is to be on the opponents half court the moment your team gets into possession, don't you think?

To the thread starter, he is anything but overrated. He wasn't even the 3rd option for most of his career. He was the 1st-2nd option on the repeat team and was clearly the best player on the team during the '89 playoffs, and if the Lakers managed to win that year it is very likely you'd be looking at the guy with 2 consecutive final MVP's.

yes he is

No. Worthy is one of the typical cases of what you might call the overly competent sidekick.
(Worthy is the rare member of that category to be primarily a scorer. The category would also include guys like Pippen and Gasol, truly elite basketball players who had everything to be a dominant force on their own but spent the better part of their career as a second or third option for one reason or another. )

Worthy's pure basketball skill is obvious from watching him play, it shouldn't surprise anyone that he's held in such high regard by those who played in his era.

I actually think he should be talked about more.
In the current era, teams tend to draft a lot of 6-8, 6-9ish SF/PF "tweeners". Many of them, despite their talent and athleticism, have a tough time figuring out how best to put their abilities to use on the court.
They should study James Worthy - he plays exactly the way they should. His moves, the way he positions himself on the court, everything.

He wasnt better than Aguirre or Nique but he was better than most of the others you listed.

question for the op; how old are you? did you ever watch James in person?

Worthy's nickname was "Big Game James" for a legitimate reason. I will grant you that after Magic retired Worthy didn't do much but that shouldn't defer from what he did during the showtime era.

Great Video of Worthy and the showtime Lakers. Watch Magic in his prime in this. :bowdown:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFtAMOyaql0[/url]

Worthy kinda reminds me of Clyde Drexler with the one handed swoop style slams.

Worthy was a fast wing and great finisher. Here is a better vid of him scoring 7 straight in the closing minutes of game 7 against the Pistons.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVlkghTbuYY&feature=related[/url]

[IMG]http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/clap%20clap%20clap/grand/applause_clap_1878.gif[/IMG]


Compare James Worthy to Lebron James... Worthy has the speed and footwork, James has the .........

[quote=miles berg]He wasnt better than Aguirre or Nique but he was better than most of the others you listed.[/quote]

No, Worthy was better, no doubt about it. His legacy is somewhat blurred because of playing on a team with Magic, Kareem, ect... but he deserves more respect than that.

I am sorry. But James Worthy was not overrated.

[QUOTE=DixieNourmous]No, Worthy was better, no doubt about it. His legacy is somewhat blurred because of playing on a team with Magic, Kareem, ect... but he deserves more respect than that.[/QUOTE]


He's better than Aguirre, but LOL, no way is he better than 'Nique.

[QUOTE=fsvr54]He's better than Aguirre, but LOL, no way is he better than 'Nique.[/QUOTE]
The only think a person can say that Nique,King,Alex,Mark were better at was scoring. Ok lets look at it. James played on a team with the GOAT PG and possibly the GOAT C. Magic made sure everyone got the ball in the right place.You must understand chemistry and how it relates to basketball. Worthy game was able to adapt to what the lakers needed. They needed him to score he score they need him to be a 3rd 4 th option thats what he did, They needed him to defend Bird,Mchale thats what he did. I know College is different from the pro's. But if you want some sort of measuring stick He was the beast in college. So lets get it straight he wasn't some coatail riding player. In college he was better than all the other SF you guys are naming.
I Close I never heard anyone say BIG GAME NIQUE<BIG GAME ALEX, IT's BIG GAME JAMES because in the big games James steped up.

[QUOTE=fsvr54]He's better than Aguirre, but LOL, no way is he better than 'Nique.[/QUOTE]
He used to burn Nique in their head to head matchups so bad it was hilarious to watch.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoTKCqDilHo[/url]

And there were many more examples.

[QUOTE=Niquesports]James played on a team with the GOAT PG and possibly the GOAT C. [/QUOTE]
Why does everyone keep forgetting about a 20 ppg SG who was the teams top scorer in one of their championship seasons?

[QUOTE=Kovach]Why does everyone keep forgetting about a 20 ppg SG who was the teams top scorer in one of their championship seasons?[/QUOTE]


So true. People underrate James because he didn't have the numbers.But on that team. Magic kept everyone in the game.Are you real Mark better than James ,Kovach they also don't know that team had 7 players in double digt scoring and Cooper was getting 9ppg.

Someone didn't watch much of Worthy if your argument basis is on stats.

I think he's underrated, because how many players with #1 talent would be willing to spend most of their career as a #2 or #3, but could step up to the plate and play like the elite option whenever his team needed? Talk about the perfect "role player".

He is quite over rated, but not in an extremely straight forward way. He was more then capable of putting up 23-25 ppg if given a first option role (which isn't particularly amazing and shouldn't be compared to the better SFs of that decade) but he was also extremely fortunate that he played with Magic so that he could put up efficient numbers that I'm not really certain he's capable of under most circumstances.
Saying he's better then a Dantley or Wilkins is not fair at all. Alex English maybe, but anyone else is really pushing it.

[QUOTE=magnax1]He is quite over rated, but not in an extremely straight forward way. He was more then capable of putting up 23-25 ppg if given a first option role (which isn't particularly amazing and shouldn't be compared to the better SFs of that decade) but he was also extremely fortunate that he played with Magic so that he could put up efficient numbers that I'm not really certain he's capable of under most circumstances.
Saying he's better then a Dantley or Wilkins is not fair at all. Alex English maybe, but anyone else is really pushing it.[/QUOTE]

FIrst off neither Dantley or Wilkins could had adjusted to going from 1 option to 3 option from game to game and still be just as effective.

Second both needed the ball to score james could post, mid game, run the lane, and finish, can you picture Dantley trying to run the break and finish like Worthy ? It would be funny

Wilkins was a one dimentional scorer beat his man off the dribble. Worthy could beat his man ,post his man,out run his man .

Lastly when it comes to D its not even close James was much better than both

The more I look at it james might be a top 5 SF

People rate him fairly. He was the best player on a college championship team. Won Finals MVP.
Bird
Lebron
Pippen
Are the only small forwards I can confidently say we're better.

[QUOTE=Big#50]People rate him fairly. He was the best player on a college championship team. Won Finals MVP.
Bird
Lebron
Pippen
Are the only small forwards I can confidently say we're better.[/QUOTE]


It's just too hard to compare him with these guys they were 1st and 2nd options on there teams . Sometimes James would be the 4th option. It wasnt because of lack of talent. It was just any given day another player would be the go to player on that laker team Magic just moved the ball around so much

[QUOTE]FIrst off neither Dantley or Wilkins could had adjusted to going from 1 option to 3 option from game to game and still be just as effective.
[/QUOTE]
That's not a skill that is relevant in most situations. Most 25 ppg scorers are not (and really should not usually be) second or third options. All that really points out is how fortunate James Worthy was to be on such a stacked team.

[QUOTE]Second both needed the ball to score james could post, mid game, run the lane, and finish, can you picture Dantley trying to run the break and finish like Worthy ? It would be funny[/QUOTE]
Worthy was the better scorer on the break, but otherwise Dantley was quite a bit better at most everything else. For the most part, it's the same with Wilkins.

Worthy's first step was ridiculous. He is underrated.

[QUOTE=Niquesports]It's just too hard to compare him with these guys they were 1st and 2nd options on there teams . Sometimes James would be the 4th option. It wasnt because of lack of talent. It was just any given day another player would be the go to player on that laker team Magic just moved the ball around so much[/QUOTE]
Worthy was a good passer from the post. These players were way better playmakers. Better defenders too. Has nothing to do with being a first option/second option. They made teammates better. Worthy had Magic. That will always be a knock on him. We will never know what he would do carrying a team on his shoulders.

[QUOTE=magnax1] but he was also extremely fortunate that he played with Magic so that he could put up efficient numbers that I'm not really certain he's capable of under most circumstances.
[/QUOTE]
Why? Nobody in the NBA could guard him, that is pretty much a well established fact.

[QUOTE=magnax1]That's not a skill that is relevant in most situations. Most 25 ppg scorers are not (and really should not usually be) second or third options. All that really points out is how fortunate James Worthy was to be on such a stacked team.


Worthy was the better scorer on the break, but otherwise Dantley was quite a bit better at most everything else. For the most part, it's the same with Wilkins.[/QUOTE]


It's not a skill to be a effective player which ever role you play ?? No wonder we never agree. That why Isiah ran Dantley out of Detroit he was messing up there team chemistry pounding the ball trying to back his man in.Wilkins was a scorer and a one demintional one at that. He could only beat his man off the dribble. Had no real mid game no post game, wasn't really a good off ball scorer . We all know Dantley was horrible as a off ball scorer. No body on the lakers avg. 25 ppg. One year they had 11 players avg double digets and cooper avg 9 ppg.I wonder why when the Lakers wanted Magic they trade Dantley instead of Jammal Wilks? This is getting funny

[QUOTE=Kovach]Why? Nobody in the NBA could guard him, that is pretty much a well established fact.[/QUOTE]


Exactly. Worthy was a matchup nightmare, he played bigger than any small forward in the league, and was quicker than any power forward in the league. Ask Rodman how hard he was to guard. No way he was overrated. I don't remember many power forwards in the league that could really guard him. He was fortunate to be on a stacked team, but that doesn't mean he was not a damn beast. I'd take him over Dantley, King, English, Wilkins any day of the week.

I don't think James in overrated at all. He just happened to be on the arguably the most stacked offensive juggernaut of all time. Worthy was clearly a Batman level scorer who had the kind of mindset. It's just a shame his health problems began to catch up with him when it was time for him to assume that mantle.

[QUOTE=Kovach]I apologize for bumping an old thread but I have completely forgotten about it.


I don't need any, I drew my conclusion from the fact that he is a freakin human being. Perhaps you have forgotten what a major deal HIV was at the time.

If you truly believe healthy and motivated Worthy wouldn't be able to compensate for that you are either delusional or have never seen him play. You are aware we are talking about the guy who was the ultimate matchup nightmare, right? You are aware that NOBODY in the bloody league could guard him at the time, right? Teams used to throw every single SF and PF on their roster at him, and he would still score close to 20, by half-time. Countless of times he would score 12-15 in the first quarter alone and then simply pass the ball to his teammates for remainder of the game. He could score at will, literally, and no defender could ever do anything about it. The guy used to make a mockery out of the infamous Bad Boys defense almost every single time they matched up for crying out loud. The notion that a healthy Worthy wouldn't be at least a 25ppg player on a less talented team is just absurd.


When your knees give up they give up, who cares if it happens by the age of 30 or 4-5 years later? Doesn't make him any less of a player. By the age of 30 he did more than enough to warrant himself a place among the 50 greatest.

To those so certain Nique was a superior player, have you ever seen a game between those 2? Worthy actually was able to contain Nique to some extent, on the other hand Nique attempting to guard Worthy was, to put it lightly, comical. Same goes for English and Aguirre.

As for his low ppg, why does everyone seem to forget that besides Magic and Kareem, Worthy had to "compete" for points with yet another 20 ppg player on that team? He was even the teams top scorer in one of Worthy's prime years if I'm not mistaken. He used to play a shooting guard, look him up.

[B]As for his low rpg, kind of hard to grab boards when your job is to be on the opponents half court the moment your team gets into possession, dont you think?[/B]

To the thread starter, he is anything but overrated. He wasn't even the 3rd option for most of his career. He was the 1st-2nd option on the repeat team and was clearly the best player on the team during the '89 playoffs, and if the Lakers managed to win that year it is very likely you'd be looking at the guy with 2 consecutive final MVP's.[/QUOTE]
I must say this is true. I cant penalize a player for playing his role to perfection. In another situation, Worthy is easily a 25/7 guy.

And while I dont think hes overrated, hes not underrated. You haave swayed me Kovach

[QUOTE=wakencdukest]Exactly. Worthy was a matchup nightmare, he played bigger than any small forward in the league, and was quicker than any power forward in the league. Ask Rodman how hard he was to guard. No way he was overrated. I don't remember many power forwards in the league that could really guard him. [/QUOTE]
I remember the Suns trying with Chambers, Gilliam and Majerle...I remember the Mavs trying with Perkins, Aquirre and Schrempf...I remember the Sonics trying with McKey, Ellis and McDaniel...and I am talking about the first quarter alone. Was pretty comical to watch.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]I must say this is true. I cant penalize a player for playing his role to perfection. In another situation, Worthy is easily a 25/7 guy.

And while I dont think hes overrated, hes not underrated. You have swayed me Kovach[/QUOTE]
:cheers:

Here is a little treat for Worthy fans, 1st part of my little pet project: [url]www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWD7ptyKYc0[/url]

27 mins of James embarrassing his defenders. Currently working on a huge expansion of that video, should be finished within a couple of weeks I hope.

[QUOTE=Kovach]:cheers:

Here is a little treat for Worthy fans, 1st part of my little pet project: [url]www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWD7ptyKYc0[/url]

27 mins of James embarrassing his defenders. Currently working on a huge expansion of that video, should be finished within a couple of weeks I hope.[/QUOTE]


Thanks for posting the evidence.

[QUOTE=Kovach]:cheers:

Here is a little treat for Worthy fans, 1st part of my little pet project: [url]www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWD7ptyKYc0[/url]
:cheers:
27 mins of James embarrassing his defenders. Currently working on a huge expansion of that video, should be finished within a couple of weeks I hope.[/QUOTE]

:cheers:

[QUOTE=bizil]I don't think James in overrated at all. He just happened to be on the arguably the most stacked offensive juggernaut of all time. Worthy was clearly a Batman level scorer who had the kind of mindset. It's just a shame his health problems began to catch up with him when it was time for him to assume that mantle.[/QUOTE]

a batman but was he also an alpha dog??

Great video.
Worthy just had a knack for scoring near the basket. He knows all the little tricks and executes them to perfection in a way that makes his scoring look effortless.

Once again, I can't stress how much SF/PF tweeners would gain by studying his game. Stop pounding the ball like a scoring guard and develop a post game...