Wilt in Must-Win and Clinching Games in the Post-Season

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]Chamberlain was the greatest basketball player of all time. Nobody is even close.

Sorry but you never watched him or you'd never even think that.[/QUOTE]

"was" or is? How can you be the greatest when you are a) short in rings and b) perform worse as the playoffs come?

How can he be in the discussion when he lacks the total dominance (in both regular season and playoffs). Jordan is one of few who's stats INCREASED as the playoffs came. Not to mention, never losing a series with HCA. :no:

[QUOTE=-23-]"was" or is? How can you be the greatest when you are a) short in rings and b) perform worse as the playoffs come?

How can he be in the discussion when he lacks the total dominance (in both regular season and playoffs). Jordan is one of few who's stats INCREASED as the playoffs came. Not to mention, never losing a series with HCA. :no:[/QUOTE]

I recommend you google insidehoops wilt chamberlain and start reading up

The facts are entirely different.

For example:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=245643[/url]

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=194899&page=16[/url]

best of luck with that

[QUOTE=-23-]"was" or is? How can you be the greatest when you are a) short in rings and b) perform worse as the playoffs come?

How can he be in the discussion when he lacks the total dominance (in both regular season and playoffs). Jordan is one of few who's stats INCREASED as the playoffs came. Not to mention, never losing a series with HCA. :no:[/QUOTE]

You obviously did not read ANY of THIS topic. Chamberlain was CRUSHING his PEERS, in the BIGGEST games of his career.

Go back and re-read it, and then get back to me.

[QUOTE=-23-]That just means there is more parity in the league. Cherry picking stats is pointless.[/QUOTE]

Cherry picking??? Ok, does 7 years at 40 and 23 work better for you??? They would have respected a guy at half those numbers for a couple of years... At half that's a starting all-star today.

Parity??? You really thought there was another person as dominant as Shaq scoring wise???

You're joking right? This is your argument against Wilt being respected?

[QUOTE=PTB Fan]I have a question for Jlauber.

How come you go with stats for Wilt in the Wilt vs Russell debate.. look to excuse Wilt for his not so good performances (in some seasons) with an edge in HOFers.. and not to do the same in the Wilt vs Kareem debates, where the latter has a statistical edge in their battles?

This is just a fair question. Why the double standard? After all, you respected the greats of the game, don't you?[/QUOTE]

One, take a look at the Russell-Wilt battles. Chamberlain had a HUGE statistical edge. BUT, Russell had FAR better rosters.

Two, when Chamberlain and Kareem met, Wilt was well past his PRIME (while Kareem was in his greatest statistical seasons), AND, Kareem had GREAT surrounding talent.

For instance, I have read some here who claim that Russell "outplayed" Wilt in the '62 ECF's, despite Wilt's MASSIVE edge in scoring and efficiency. However, Russell was playing on the multiple-defending title Celtics, with a HOF-laden roster. Furthermore, Wilt's supporting cast played WORSE than they did in the regular season. Now, just how in the hell did Wilt single-handedly carry that inept roster to a game seven, two-point loss?

By contrast, Kareem's 71-72 Bucks, were the defending champs. The year before they had gone 66-16 in the regular season, and then waltzed thru the playoffs with a 12-2 record. AND, Wilt, playing without BOTH West and Baylor, matched Kareem, shot-for-shot, rebound-for-rebound, and in efficiency. This from a 34 year-old Wilt, and only a year removed from major knee surgery.

Kareem's 71-72 Bucks were UNIVERSALLY picked to repeat as champions before the season even began. Meanwhile, Chamberlain's Lakers were an old team, which had gone 48-34 the yearf before, and with all five returning starters over 30 years old. Virtually NO ONE picked LA to win the title.

And, once again, this was a well past his prime Chamberlain, too. I would never claim that, at that stage in their careers, that Chamberlain was the better player. STILL, those that actually WATCHED the 71-72 WCF's, including the MILWAUKEE PRESS, and the MILWAUKEE COACH, as well as virtually EVERYONE else, proclaimed that Wilt outplayed Kareem in that series. Time Magazine hailed Wilt's performance as DECISIVELY outplaying the 11 year younger Kareem.

And in the last four pivotal games of that series, (three of them Laker wins), Chamberlain reduced Kareem to a .414 shooter (including blocking MANY of his shots..and skyhooks.) And in the clinching game six win, on the road, Chamberlain took over the game in the 4th quarter, and engineered a Laker comeback win.

The real question would be...how would a battle between a PRIME Chamberlain and a prime Kareem have gone? We do KNOW that Wilt DOMINATED many of the same centers, to a FAR greater extent than Kareem did.

Kareem faced HOFers Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy, and Nate Thurmond, many times. BUT, think about this...Wilt had an ENTIRE season, covering NINE H2H games, in which he averaged 40 ppg against Reed. Chamberlain routinely SHELLED Bellamy. For instance, Wilt had entire SEASONS of 33.0 ppg (in 65-66), 43.7 ppg (in 62-63), and an unbelieveable 52.7 ppg, covering 10 H2H games in the 61-62 season.

Thurmond? Kareem faced Nate in over 50+ H2H games in their careers. He seldom even scored 30+ against Nate, and his HIGH game was 34 points. A PRIME "scoring" Wilt faced Thurmond in a slightly over a DOZEN games. For example, in their last H2H meeting in the 64-65 season, Wilt scored 34 points against Thurmond. Then, in their nine H2H games in the 65-66 season, Chamberlain averaged 28.9 ppg against Thurmond, which included games of 33, 34, 38, and a whopping 45 point game (outscoring Nate, 45-13.) So, in a span of 10 straight games, Chamberlain was at nearly 30 ppg against Thurmond.

I could go on, but once again, Kareem never faced a PRIME Chamberlain. In their one H2H game before Wilt shredded his knee, he dominated a rookie Kareem in every facet of the game, hanging a 25-25 game, on 9-14 shooting, against Kareem. And while that was a rookie Kareem, that was still not a PRIME Chamberlain.

Jlauber will never tell you the fact that Wilt got outscored with 23 points per game by Kareem in the playoffs when he won his 2nd ring as a Laker. He will always mention Kareem's FG% in that series and how much it sucked but at the same time he "forgets" to mention that Wilt's FG% was even worse while Kareem outscored him with 23 points per game. He will not mention either that Kareem outassisted Wilt in that series and that he shot FT's twice as good as Wilt but he will mention bogus stuff about Wilt blocking 20 skyhooks in that series, the source of that nonsense is himself..

He will only mention the fact that he found one article that he's constantly misreading words on purpose because he thinks that everyone will fall for his nonsense as proof of how Wilt outplayed Kareem.

Before Jlauber got confronted regarding this series he used spam about how Wilt absolutely destroyed Kareem in that series and how he "murdered" Kareem which of course wasn't true. You don't murder someone when you're getting outscored with 23 points per game by someone who even shoots with higher FG% then yourself..:facepalm

[QUOTE=-23-]"was" or is? How can you be the greatest when you are a) short in rings and b) perform worse as the playoffs come?

How can he be in the discussion when he lacks the total dominance (in both regular season and playoffs). Jordan is one of few who's stats INCREASED as the playoffs came. Not to mention, never losing a series with HCA. :no:[/QUOTE]

I posted EVERY one of Wilt's "must-win" or series clinching games of his post-season career. All 35 of them. And no, I didn't "cherry pick" them either. Go back and re-read each one of them, and tell me in just how many that he was outplayed.

In the meantime...

I'll repost this...

[QUOTE]The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games.

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.
[/QUOTE]

One more time...ALL 35 of Wilt's "must-win" or series clinching games...

[QUOTE]Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, while Russell had a 25-25 game.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds. Russell had 14 points and 26 points in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game. Russell with a 22-21 game in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points and 14 rebounds. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points. Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points, 27 rebounds, and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points and 18 rebounds. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points and 31 rebounds. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points and 28 rebounds. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points. Thurmond had 9 points in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]**************************************
Chamberlain had an edge in Hall of Famers????????????????????????????

Chamberlain's teammates AND HOW MANY SEASONS HE PLAYED WITH THEM:
Baylor 4
West 5
Greer 4
Cunningham 3 (anyone remember BC breaking his arm in the 68 playoffs?)
Arizin 3
Thurmond 2
Gola 3
Total: 24 seasons together.

Baylor? from the 69-70 season right through the end of his career in 71-72 he played 65 games. He never played a full season with Chamberlain.
And it's interesting that Chamberlain wrecked his knee in 69 and missed the season. And it's interesting that Baylor & West both missed the '71 playoffs.

**********************************************

Russell?

Russell's teammates AND HOW MANY SEASONS RUSSELL PLAYED WITH THEM:
Havlicek 7
Cousy 7
Sharman 5
Sam Jones 12

Lovellette played two partial seasons with Russell, and limited minutes so we won't count him.

Risen 2
Embry 2
Howell 3
Ramsey 8
KC Jones 8 (full seasons, and another, his ninth was partial)
Sanders 9
Heinsohn 9


[B]Russell had 71-24 edge in HOF seasons with his teammates over Chamberlain. [/B]

What the heck are you talkin' about?[/QUOTE]


Wilt had a comparable supporting cast from 65 to the rest of their match ups and IMO, better. None of Russell's team mates was individually better than any of Wilt's (granted Hondo is good, but he isn't better than Baylor and West). Difference between the two lies in the fact that Russell maximized his team mates' strengths and made them so so much better unlike Wilt who didn't do well in this area and no stats will prove me wrong.

So, it's not like Wilt didn't have advantage, but for some reasons he couldn't beat Russell (expect in 67) in a series despite having some good to brilliant rosters in his career.

[QUOTE=jlauber]One, take a look at the Russell-Wilt battles. Chamberlain had a HUGE statistical edge. BUT, Russell had FAR better rosters.

Two, when Chamberlain and Kareem met, Wilt was well past his PRIME (while Kareem was in his greatest statistical seasons), AND, Kareem had GREAT surrounding talent.

For instance, I have read some here who claim that Russell "outplayed" Wilt in the '62 ECF's, despite Wilt's MASSIVE edge in scoring and efficiency. However, Russell was playing on the multiple-defending title Celtics, with a HOF-laden roster. Furthermore, Wilt's supporting cast played WORSE than they did in the regular season. Now, just how in the hell did Wilt single-handedly carry that inept roster to a game seven, two-point loss?

By contrast, Kareem's 71-72 Bucks, were the defending champs. The year before they had gone 66-16 in the regular season, and then waltzed thru the playoffs with a 12-2 record. AND, Wilt, playing without BOTH West and Baylor, matched Kareem, shot-for-shot, rebound-for-rebound, and in efficiency. This from a 34 year-old Wilt, and only a year removed from major knee surgery.

Kareem's 71-72 Bucks were UNIVERSALLY picked to repeat as champions before the season even began. Meanwhile, Chamberlain's Lakers were an old team, which had gone 48-34 the yearf before, and with all five returning starters over 30 years old. Virtually NO ONE picked LA to win the title.

And, once again, this was a well past his prime Chamberlain, too. I would never claim that, at that stage in their careers, that Chamberlain was the better player. STILL, those that actually WATCHED the 71-72 WCF's, including the MILWAUKEE PRESS, and the MILWAUKEE COACH, as well as virtually EVERYONE else, proclaimed that Wilt outplayed Kareem in that series. Time Magazine hailed Wilt's performance as DECISIVELY outplaying the 11 year younger Kareem.

And in the last four pivotal games of that series, (three of them Laker wins), Chamberlain reduced Kareem to a .414 shooter (including blocking MANY of his shots..and skyhooks.) And in the clinching game six win, on the road, Chamberlain took over the game in the 4th quarter, and engineered a Laker comeback win.

The real question would be...how would a battle between a PRIME Chamberlain and a prime Kareem have gone? We do KNOW that Wilt DOMINATED many of the same centers, to a FAR greater extent than Kareem did.

Kareem faced HOFers Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy, and Nate Thurmond, many times. BUT, think about this...Wilt had an ENTIRE season, covering NINE H2H games, in which he averaged 40 ppg against Reed. Chamberlain routinely SHELLED Bellamy. For instance, Wilt had entire SEASONS of 33.0 ppg (in 65-66), 43.7 ppg (in 62-63), and an unbelieveable 52.7 ppg, covering 10 H2H games in the 61-62 season.

Thurmond? Kareem faced Nate in over 50+ H2H games in their careers. He seldom even scored 30+ against Nate, and his HIGH game was 34 points. A PRIME "scoring" Wilt faced Thurmond in a slightly over a DOZEN games. For example, in their last H2H meeting in the 64-65 season, Wilt scored 34 points against Thurmond. Then, in their nine H2H games in the 65-66 season, Chamberlain averaged 28.9 ppg against Thurmond, which included games of 33, 34, 38, and a whopping 45 point game (outscoring Nate, 45-13.) So, in a span of 10 straight games, Chamberlain was at nearly 30 ppg against Thurmond.

I could go on, but once again, Kareem never faced a PRIME Chamberlain. In their one H2H game before Wilt shredded his knee, he dominated a rookie Kareem in every facet of the game, hanging a 25-25 game, on 9-14 shooting, against Kareem. And while that was a rookie Kareem, that was still not a PRIME Chamberlain.[/QUOTE]

Hm..still doesn't change the fact that you go with stats when they are in favor of your favor player. Not a fan of that.

[QUOTE=PTB Fan]Wilt had a comparable supporting cast from 65 to the rest of their match ups and IMO, better. None of Russell's team mates was individually better than any of Wilt's (granted Hondo is good, but he isn't better than Baylor and West). Difference between the two lies in the fact that Russell maximized his team mates' strengths and made them so so much better unlike Wilt who didn't do well in this area and no stats will prove me wrong.

So, it's not like Wilt didn't have advantage, but for some reasons he couldn't beat Russell (expect in 67) in a series despite having some good to brilliant rosters in his career.[/QUOTE]

In the 67-68 regular season, Wilt and his Sixers RAN AWAY with the best record in the league.

BUT, in the ECF's, the team that Chamberlain had during the regular season, was NOWHERE near the team that he had that faced Russell's Celtics. HOFer Billy Cunningham didn't play a MINUTE of that series. And the Sixers STILL had a 3-1 series lead. THEN, in game five, BOTH starters, Luke Jackson and Wali Jones, went down with leg injuries. And despite that talented roster, it was NOT a deep roster (unlike Boston, which could go TEN deep.) On top of all of that, Wilt himself, was PLAYING with an assortment of injuries, including a torn calf (a similar injury which limited Reed to missing two portions of the '70 Finals, and another entire game.) With ALL of that, Boston eked out a 100-96 win in game seven. CLEARLY, a HEALTHY Sixer roster would have fared much better, and likely would have duplicated their 66-67 rout of Boston.

In the 68-69 season, the Lakers gave up THREE players to get Wilt, AND, something that very few mention, they also lost HOFer Gail Goodrich in the expansion draft. Again, they were not a deep roster. But, despite all of that, they were still ONE PLAY away from winning that series, 4-1. Had Goodrich's replacement, Johnny Egan, been able to hold onto the ball late in game four, the Lakers would have won that game, and given the fact that they easily won game five, 117-104, they would have won that series in a 4-1 romp. I could go on, but ultimately, they had an incompetent coach who cost LA a title that season.

As for the 65-66 Sixers. During the regular season, Wilt averaged 28.3 ppg and 31.6 rpg against Russell. Overall, he led the league in scoring, at 33.5 ppg; in rebounding, at 24.6 rpg, and in FG%, at .540. And, he led that Sixer team to the best record in the league that year (albeit, by only one game over Boston.) In the ECF's, and against Russell, Chamberlain averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509. Meanwhile, his teammates collectively shot .352 in that series. Now, you tell me just what changed? Are you blaming WILT for that collapse?

[QUOTE=PTB Fan]Hm..still doesn't change the fact that you go with stats when they are in favor of your favor player. Not a fan of that.[/QUOTE]

Throw out the stats...

Wilt DOMINATED his peers...plain-and-simple. Even in his supposed "decline" in the post-season.

There were very few games in Chamberlain's 160 playoff games, in which he played poorly, or was outplayed. And in many of them he just OBLITERATED his opposing centers. And keep in mind that he faced a HOF starting center in 105, and a multiple all star center in another 26...or 131 of his 160 post-season games against very good-to-GREAT centers.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Throw out the stats...

Wilt DOMINATED his peers...plain-and-simple. Even in his supposed "decline" in the post-season.

There were very few games in Chamberlain's 160 playoff games, in which he played poorly, or was outplayed. And in many of them he just OBLITERATED his opposing centers. And keep in mind that he faced a HOF starting center in 105, and a multiple all star center in another 26...or 131 of his 160 post-season games against very good-to-GREAT centers.[/QUOTE]

Why don't you ever post the stats both Wilt and Kareem had in the '72 playoffs? You ALWAYS post both Wilt's stats and the stats of the player he faced but this series you never put up stats. You only write "Kareem got murdered by Wilt", "Kareem got totally abused" and nonsense like that..

A perfect example of how you only use stats when it fits you.

[QUOTE=PTB Fan]Wilt had a comparable supporting cast from 65 to the rest of their match ups and IMO, better. None of Russell's team mates was individually better than any of Wilt's (granted Hondo is good, but he isn't better than Baylor and West). Difference between the two lies in the fact that Russell maximized his team mates' strengths and made them so so much better unlike Wilt who didn't do well in this area and no stats will prove me wrong.

So, it's not like Wilt didn't have advantage, but for some reasons he couldn't beat Russell (expect in 67) in a series despite having some good to brilliant rosters in his career.[/QUOTE]
*************************

Dude. Hondo was always better than Baylor. That's not even a comparison.

Elgin was a great scorer & a pretty fair rebounder when I saw him in the late 60s. But he never, ever, played defense, was a notorious shot-jacker, and froze in clutch games over, and over, and over.

Havlicek was the best forward in the NBA for years and years. He was the best player on the Celtics in 68 & 69 and a top 5 player almost throughout his career. His only real competition was Pettit & then Rick Barry

I love stats as much as the next guy, but the eye-ball test doesn't get you to a point where Russell (or anybody) was better than Chamberlain. That's all Boston newspapers. He wasn't a guard, he was a center, he invented the entire post game against some of the best centers the game has ever seen. And he demolished every player he ever saw - on any court - except Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

You'll have to prove a negative when you suggest Chamberlain's teammates were better than Russell's, because they weren't. From 1960 to 1966 it wasn't even close. Chamberlain had 4 Hall of Fame teammates over those years, one of whom was a 11 & 5 guy with no great defensive skill: Russell had 14. Guys like Heinsohn, Cousy, Havlicek, both Jones, Sanders, Ramsay.


1967 & 68 were the only years there was an even matchup, and the 76ers won in 67 and had so many injuries in 68 nobody in the country thought they were winning the series.

People keep talking about Baylor like he was some mythic figure and in his early career, I guess he was. But he was nothing but a scorer when I saw him in 67-70. And, most people don't even know he played 65 games out of 300 in those last 3 years. If you count him as a player in the 70s you are sadly mistaken. He was the original Baron Davis as in always injured, always on the bench, a negative factor for his team.

********************

Furthermore - it's flat false to say that Russell made his teammates better than Chamberlain did.

Look up Wilt's teammates. Virtually every one of them had the best seasons of their careers with Chamberlain. The only notable exception was Baylor, who as I already pointed out, was done in by 70 - 1 full season with Chamberlain.

Buying into myth is bad business.

[QUOTE=millwad]Why don't you ever post the stats both Wilt and Kareem had in the '72 playoffs? You ALWAYS post both Wilt's stats and the stats of the player he faced but this series you never put up stats. You only write "Kareem got murdered by Wilt", "Kareem got totally abused" and nonsense like that..

A perfect example of how you only use stats when it fits you.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm... I posted the numbers from their two H2H clinching games in this thread. In one, a 34 year-old Wilt, a year removed from major knee surgery, outscored Kareem, 23-20, while outshooting Kareem, 10-21 to 7-23. Granted Kareem outrebounded him in that game, 15-12. Oh, and BTW, Wilt received a standing ovation as he left the floor in the last minute of the game...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

In the very next season, in the clinching game, again in Milwaukee, it was WILT who engineered a Laker comeback in the final quarter, erasing a 10 point Buck lead, and leading LA to a 104-100 win. In that final quarter, Chamberlain held Kareem to 2-8 shooting (and blocking two of his shots...presumably skyhooks), while taking over offensively. Their final numbers... Kareem with 37 points, and 25 rebounds, BUT, on 16-37 shooting. Meanwhile, Chamberlain had 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds.

So, in those TWO "clinching" games, a 34 and 35 year-old Chamberlain held Kareem to 23-60 shooting...or a .383 FG%!

Once again, though, what would a Chamberlain, in his absolute PRIME, have brought to the table?

Once again...I listed ALL 35 of Wilt's "must-win" and series "clinching" games...ALL of them.

Take a close look at ALL of them. Now, I challenge the "Simmonites" to prove that Chamberlain was a "choker" and a "loser", who "shrunk" in his biggest games. If anything, his OPPOSING CENTERS were the one's "shrinking" in those big games.

Hopefully we can finally put an end to this utter NONSENSE that Wilt was a "stats-padding" "loser" who "choked" and "shrunk" in his biggest games in the post-season.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Once again...I listed ALL 35 of Wilt's "must-win" and series "clinching" games...ALL of them.

Take a close look at ALL of them. Now, I challenge the "Simmonites" to prove that Chamberlain was a "choker" and a "loser", who "shrunk" in his biggest games. If anything, his OPPOSING CENTERS were the one's "shrinking" in those big games.

Hopefully we can finally put an end to this utter NONSENSE that Wilt was a "stats-padding" "loser" who "choked" and "shrunk" in his biggest games in the post-season.[/QUOTE]

Just stop it, seriously, it doesn't matter if we put an end to anything, you will continue spamming about this crap just so you can get rid of your daily dose of Wilt spamming..

Wilt and Lebron (on the Cavs) are the two players in NBA history that have had to deal with more unrealistic expectations simply because of how good they were.

Their own greatness was used against them time and time again.

KG gets a pass for getting out of the first round once in Minny....while Lebron is expected to challenge for titles with marginally better help on the Cavs. Doesn't add up.

People act like Wilt never won. He won twice and came about as close as you can a lot more.

Its funny because the mere act of hammering guys like that shows how truly great they are. Why do Malone and Barkley get passes for not winning anything.....while a guy like Dirk was hammered before last year? Last year people would laugh at the notion that Dirk was in their league as a player. Why? The ring thing was often brought up.

But then you mention that those guys didn't have a ring either and its excuse after excuse.

Rings matter of course, but so does how players play. You can be great and lose. Happens all the time. Check out Lebron in 09. Dirk in 09 (against the Nuggets).....Dirk in 10 against the Spurs.....

And what does it all even matter. Even the most ardent hater of Wilt would rank him in the top 6 all time. LOL

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]*************************

Dude. Hondo was always better than Baylor. That's not even a comparison.

Elgin was a great scorer & a pretty fair rebounder when I saw him in the late 60s. But he never, ever, played defense, was a notorious shot-jacker, and froze in clutch games over, and over, and over.[/QUOTE]

Fair rebounder? He averaged 18.5 RPG and 19 RPG in back to back seasons. Don't think Hondo got near double figures.

[QUOTE=Horatio33]Fair rebounder? He averaged 18.5 RPG and 19 RPG in back to back seasons. Don't think Hondo got near double figures.[/QUOTE]

1962 and 1963 is not the late 60s.

As I said, and you apparently ignored:

"Elgin was a great scorer & a pretty fair rebounder [B][SIZE="3"]when I saw him in the late 60s.[/SIZE][/B]"

Baylor was great, I don't want to give any idea otherwise. In the '68 regular season people were saying he had gotten back a lot of his old early 60s form, and I know I was blown away by some of his moves. But he got slower and slower as the season went on. It ain't fair to bash the guy, because his knees blew out - anymore than a guy should bash Grant Hill for [I]his[/I] injuries. But his defense was not what you saw from Satch Sanders or John Havlicek. Or Grant Hill, for that matter, who turned his game into skill and defense.

If you just run your eye down his career stat line, you can see exactly when he broke his kneecap........ From ESPN:

"On April 3, 1965, in the opening game of the Western Division finals against the Baltimore Bullets, Baylor's world came crashing down. He went up for a jump shot and came down twisting in pain. Players heard a "pop." [B]He had ripped off the upper eighth of his kneecap. Doctors removed part of his kneecap, tendons and ligaments, and scraped out sharp flecks of calcium.[/B]

Baylor returned for the next season, but, as Lakers announcer Chick Hearn said, "[B]It was like watching Citation run on spavined legs.[/B]" Baylor averaged only 16.6 points and for the first time didn't make first-team all-NBA. Somehow, though his moves and speed were not what they had been, Baylor pushed himself so hard that he again took his place among the NBA elite, averaging at least 24 points in the next four seasons.

But a torn Achilles tendon limited him to two games in 1970-71, and after only nine games the following year Baylor retired with 23,149 points... "

People on this site use Elgin Baylor all the time as a club to beat on Wilt Chamberlain for not winning more rings. They don't even know he just sat the bench most of the time.

Simmons is among the ignorant that bring up the Baylor-Wilt connection, to disparage Wilt's career.

As La Frescobaldi pointed out, Baylor was already on a severe downward spiral by the time he was paired up with Chamberlain. And the Lakers idiotic coach, Van Breda Kolf, preferred the shot-jacking Baylor's offense over the efficient offense of Chamberlain.

And the reality was, Baylor and Wilt only played together for ONE FULL-TIME season, their first in 68-69. And, Baylor was AWFUL in that post-season.

Following that season, Chamberlain blew out HIS knee the very next season, and while Baylor was essentially worthless for over a year with HIS knee injury (and at a younger age), Wilt came back from his surgery within FOUR MONTHS.

Now, while Van Breda Kolf despised Wilt, and limited his offense in the 68-69 season, Chamberlain's new coach in the 69-70 season immediately recognized that Wilt was a FAR greater offensive threat than Baylor. He asked WILT to become the focal point of the Laker offense, and as I have stated many times, a rejuvenated Chamberlain relished his return to offensive basketball.

In Wilt's first nine games of that 69-70 season, Wilt terrorized the league, averaging 32.2 ppg and on nearly .600 shooting...all in his 11th season in the league. BUT, unfortunately, Wilt blew out his knee, and was never quite the same after that.

In any case, Wilt was still a much better offensive player even after that devastating injury, and in fact, after posting a 36 and 30 point games in leading LA back from the 3-1 first round deficit, and then a sweep of Atlanta in the WCF's, he then put up a 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, .625 Finals, in a seven game series loss against the 60-22 Knicks.

Baylor only played TWO GAMES in the 70-71 season (and obviously missed the playoffs...as did West that season.) Then, he was forced to retire in the ninth game of the 71-72 season, and it was probably no coincidence that the Lakers immediately reeled off a 33 game winning streak.

In any case, Wilt and Baylor were only together for ONE FULL season. Of course, Simmons never brings that up. Nor that Wilt was paired up with Thurmond for ONE full season, and then, Nate was a rookie, playing part-time, out of position, and even shooting a dismal .395.

The REALITY was, Chamberlain played with HIS HOFers FAR less than Russell did with his. And, for whatever it is worth, Wilt's HOFers generally played considerably worse in the post-season. Even the legendary "Mr. Clutch" had a horrible post-season in the one year in which he won a ring (shooting .376 in the post-season, and an even worse .325 in the Finals.)

And, as La Frescobaldi pointed out, Havlicek was a much better player in the late 60's than Baylor was, and considerably better in the post-season.

Thanks to Julizaver...

I can now add some more info to Wilt's 35 "must win" and series clinching games...

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272032&page=3[/url]

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/9 FG, 25 rebounds and 1 assist. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points on 5/11 FG, 29 rebounds and [B]10 blocks[/B]. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points on 12/20 FG 14 rebounds and 3 assists. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points on 4/11 FG, 26 rebounds, 11 assists and [B]12 blocks (unofficial quad)[/B]. Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points on 11/18 FG, 27 rebounds, [B]6 assists and 11 blocks.[/B] Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/10 FG, 21 rebounds and [B]10 blocks[/B]. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.


28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points on 7/12 FG,18 rebounds and 9 assists. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points on 4/6, 31 rebounds and 8 assists. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points on 10/17 FG, 28 rebounds, 4 asissts and [B]8 blocks.[/B] His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

[B]The article about this series sad that Wilt blocked Chicago from playoffs after blocking 49 shots in 7 games[/B].


34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points on 2/2 FG, 22 rebounds, 7 assists. Thurmond had 9 points on 2/9 FG, 18 or 15 rebounds and 5 assists in 32 minutes in the loss.

Thanks again Julizaver

Updated...

Wilt in his 35 "must-win", or "series clinching" post-season games...

[QUOTE]

Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, while Russell had a 25-25 game.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds. Russell had 14 points and 26 points in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game. Russell with a 22-21 game in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/9 FG, 25 rebounds and 1 assist. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points on 5/11 FG, 29 rebounds and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points on 12/20 FG 14 rebounds and 3 assists. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points on 4/11 FG, 26 rebounds, 11 assists and 12 blocks (unofficial quad). Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points on 11/18 FG, 27 rebounds, 6 assists and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/10 FG, 21 rebounds and 10 blocks. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points on 7/12 FG,18 rebounds and 9 assists. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points on 4/6, 31 rebounds and 8 assists. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points on 10/17 FG, 28 rebounds, 4 asissts and 8 blocks. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

The article about this series sad that Wilt blocked Chicago from playoffs after blocking 49 shots in 7 games.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points on 2/2 FG, 22 rebounds, 7 assists. Thurmond had 9 points on 2/9 FG, 18 or 15 rebounds and 5 assists in 32 minutes in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.

[/QUOTE]

lol Wilt sucks two rings with one of them winning as a sidekick, can't believe he is called the most dominant player. Definition of a statpadder!

Oh yeah he is a choker.

[QUOTE=Trumpin]lol Wilt sucks two rings with one of them winning as a sidekick, can't believe he is called the most dominant player. Definition of a statpadder!

Oh yeah he is a choker.[/QUOTE]

As a 'sidekick" he won the FMVP. And all he did in that series was average 19 ppg, 23 rpg, shoot .600, and 7.4 bpg. And in his clinching game five performance (and with two badly injured wrists...one FRACTURED)...he put up a 24 point game, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds (the ENTIRE Knick team had 39 BTW), and either 9 or 10 blocks.

And I am assuming as a "sidekick". you probably meant to Jerry West, who not only shot .376 in his entire '72 post-season, but an even worse .325 in those Finals.

Yep. He was a choker.

1960 - Loss
1961 - Loss
1962 - Loss
1963 - Loss
1964 - Loss
1965 - Loss
1966 - Loss
1967 - Win
1968 - Loss
1969 - Loss
1970 - Loss
1971 - Loss
1972 - Win
1973 - Loss

[QUOTE=jlauber]Yep. He was a choker.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]1960 - Loss
1961 - Loss
1962 - Loss
1963 - Loss
1964 - Loss
1965 - Loss
1966 - Loss
1967 - Win
1968 - Loss
1969 - Loss
1970 - Loss
1971 - Loss
1972 - Win
1973 - Loss[/QUOTE]

Some more chokers...

Jordan choked in nine of his 15 seasons.
Bird choked in 10 of his 13.
Duncan has choked in 11 of his 15.
Oscar choked in 13 of his 14.
West choked in 13 of his 14.
Baylor choked in all 14 of his.
Kareem choked in 14 of his 20.
Shaq choked in 15 of his 19.
Hakeem choked in 16 of his 18.

And has anyone ever choked as bad as Kobe did in the '04 Finals? While Shaq was single-handedly dominating DPOY Wallace to the tune of 27 ppg on .631 shooting...Kobe was single-handedly shooting his team out of four of the five games, and wound up with a .381 FG% in that Finals.

In fact, maybe you can provide all of us here with Kobe's FG%'s in his seven Finals.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Some more chokers...

Jordan choked in nine of his 15 seasons.
Bird choked in 10 of his 13.
Duncan has choked in 11 of his 15.
Oscar choked in 13 of his 14.
West choked in 13 of his 14.
Baylor choked in all 14 of his.
Kareem choked in 14 of his 20.
Shaq choked in 15 of his 19.
Hakeem choked in 16 of his 18.

And has anyone ever choked as bad as Kobe did in the '04 Finals? While Shaq was single-handedly dominating DPOY Wallace to the tune of 27 ppg on .631 shooting...Kobe was single-handedly shooting his team out of four of the five games, and wound up with a .381 FG% in that Finals.

In fact, maybe you can provide all of us here with Kobe's FG%'s in his seven Finals.[/QUOTE]
Wilt's teammate

'69 Playoffs: 31-4-8 on 46%, '69 Finals: 38 ppg (2nd highest of all-time)
'70 Playoffs: 31-4-8 on 47%, '70 Finals: 31-3-4 on 45%

And Wilt lost both times while shooting below 36% from the freethrow line :oldlol:
:facepalm

Other than '11 Lebron, you can't surpass that on the all-time chokers list.

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Wilt's teammate

'69 Playoffs: 31-4-8 on 46%, '69 Finals: 38 ppg (2nd highest of all-time)
'70 Playoffs: 31-4-8 on 47%, '70 Finals: 31-3-4 on 45%

And Wilt lost both times while shooting below 36% from the freethrow line :oldlol:
:facepalm

Other than '11 Lebron, you can't surpass that on the all-time chokers list.[/QUOTE]

In the '70 Finals, while West had a brilliant overall series, he completely choked in that game seven, and was badly outplayed by Frazier. Meanwhile, in that game seven, Chamberlain was the ONLY Laker to do ANYTHING (particularly in the first half). Wilt put up a 21 point game, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds.

And keep in mind that Wilt was only FOUR MONTHS REMOVED FROM MAJOR KNEE SURGERY. And he STILL put up the ONLY 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625 FG%.) And "the choker" even had a "must-win" game six of 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds.

And, as I already pointed out, Chamberlain chopped down Kareem in the '72 WCF's (Time Magazine hailed it as a DECISIVE win for Wilt BTW), and then won the FMVP with a 19-23 .600 series, which included a series clinching game performance of 24 points, 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. Meanwhile West shot .376 in the entire '72 post-season, and then a horriod .325 in the Finals.

And in Wilt's LAST game, in game five of the '73 Finals, he hung a 23 point, 21 rebound game, and on 9-16 shooting. How about "Mr. Clutch?" He shot 5-17.

To be honest, in the five years in which Chamberlain played with West, West only had two good post-seasons (and yes, a great one in '69...albeit, Baylor puked all over himself in that series.) And even in the other good series, he was awful in game seven. He missed the entire '71 post-season. Then, he was just horrific in both the '72 and '73 post-seasons, and particularly in those Finals.

Once again, GREAT posts as always. You know you're history...id really like to know some of your sources...and do you make youtube videos at all?

[QUOTE=jongib369]Once again, GREAT posts as always. You know you're history...id really like to know some of your sources...and do you make youtube videos at all?[/QUOTE]

Thanks.

:cheers:

I have researched Chamberlain's career for years, and actually went to a couple of his games (albeit, it was in his last year.) And there are MANY sources out there, including several HERE. Fpliii, Julizaver, ThaRegul8r, Psileas, PHILA, Pointguard, and other's that I apologize for failing to recall at the moment.

As for YouTube videos...I wouldn't have a clue.

What is your YouTube Channel again?

[QUOTE=jlauber]Thanks.

:cheers:

I have researched Chamberlain's career for years, and actually went to a couple of his games (albeit, it was in his last year.) And there are MANY sources out there, including several HERE. Fpliii, Julizaver, ThaRegul8r, Psileas, PHILA, Pointguard, and other's that I apologize for failing to recall at the moment.

As for YouTube videos...I wouldn't have a clue.

What is your YouTube Channel again?[/QUOTE]
Id pay big money to be able to see him play. You are LUCKY! haha

It's the same as my username here

or you can just go to a post I did earlier

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273334[/url]

BTW, I will be posting some new info regarding his "decline" in the post-season, as well. It is amazing, but given the actual scoring and especially shooting percentages in the Wilt-era POST-SEASONS, he was consistently at or near his regular season numbers.

And, had he had the good "fortune" to have been eliminated in the first round of the playoffs, EIGHT times, as was the case with Hakeem, his first round numbers were often HIGHER. And, I have read an idiot post claiming that Hakeem outshot Wilt from the field in the post-season (by a .528 to .522 margin), BUT, I will be comparing their post-season LEAGUE AVERAGES, (and even including eFG%'s), which CLEARLY gives Chamberlain a HUGE edge.

As examples, in Wilt's fist eight post-seasons, and in his first round, he averaged

38.7 ppg

37.0 ppg

37.0 ppg

38.6 ppg and on .559 shooting (in a post-season NBA of 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting)

27.8 ppg (and then 30.1 ppg, on .555 shooting, and against Russell)

28.0 ppg

28.0 ppg (and a great example of FG% at .612 in a post-season at .424)

25.5 ppg (and on .584 shooting, while his opposing center, Bellamy was at 20.0 on .421 shooting.)

Even in his 11th season, and only four months removed from major knee surgery, Chamberlain put up a first round of 23.7 ppg., 20.3 rpg, and .549.

And, in his 71-72 post-season, he had a 14.5 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .629 first round series (and in an NBA post-season of .446.)

So while Chamberlain was shooting .522 in his post-season career, it came in post-seasons of between .402 to .455.) Meanwhile Hakeem's .528 came in post-seasons of as high as .492, and an efg% as high as .500. MANY in the .485+ range, as well.

And, keep in mind two more interesting points. One, in Wilt's second greatest scoring season (44.8 ppg on .528 shooting) his all-time worst roster kept him from playing in the post-season (which probably cost him another 2-3+ ppg in his post-seasob career average.) And two, he faced a starting HOF center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Thurmond in 17, and a PRIME Kareem in 11.

[QUOTE=jlauber]As a 'sidekick" he won the FMVP. And all he did in that series was average 19 ppg, 23 rpg, shoot .600, and 7.4 bpg. And in his clinching game five performance (and with two badly injured wrists...one FRACTURED)...he put up a 24 point game, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds (the ENTIRE Knick team had 39 BTW), and either 9 or 10 blocks.

And I am assuming as a "sidekick". you probably meant to Jerry West, who not only shot .376 in his entire '72 post-season, but an even worse .325 in those Finals.

Yep. He was a choker.[/QUOTE]

It's funny how you never mention Jerry Wests injuries.

[QUOTE=Horatio33]It's funny how you never mention Jerry Wests injuries.[/QUOTE]

To my knowledge, West was NOT injured in the '72 post-season. In the '73 post-season he had two bad knees (and Happy Hairston was coming off of a major injury as well...and the Lakers lost four close straight games in the closing moments...against a Knick team with SIX HOFers.)

As for '72, West was, quite simply, AWFUL. And even HE would concur. It was WILT who led that Laker team to a title.

[QUOTE=Horatio33]It's funny how you never mention Jerry Wests injuries.[/QUOTE]

And it's also funny how you never mention Wilt's, either. BTW, not only did Chamberlain PLAY with his injuries, he was generally brilliant DESPITE them. I get a kick out of Kareem missing 16 and 20 games in two different seasons with a broken wrist, and yet Chamberlain with one badly sprained wrist, and the other FRACTURED, not only PLAYED in the clinching game five of the '72 Finals, he DOMINATED it (24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 10 blocked shots.)

Or Reed missing one full game, and the major portions of two others (and doing absolutely nothing in either) in the '70 Finals with a tear in his quad (while Wilt, only four months from major knee surgery put up a 23-24 .625 series), while Chamberlain PLAYED the last FIVE games (and all 48 minutes in each) of the '68 ECF's with tear in his calf muscle (as well as an assortment of other injuries)...in a series in which he averaged 22 ppg and 25 rpg (and shot a well-below average...for him... .487 from the floor.)

But, I have seen posters here rip Wilt for his games six and seven of the '68 ECF's (which admittedly, were very poor games for him...albeit, he had 27 and 34 rebounds in them.) Even Russell admitted that a lessor man would not have played (which means, no one else would have.)

Just another example of the WILT DOUBLE STANDARD.