Wilt Chamberlian vs. Kobe Bryant

The one with an argument for GOAT, and that's not Kobe, as much as I like him, as well. "5 vs 2" tells me nothing, when Kobe had Shaq next to him. If Wilt (supposedly Kobe's "comparison" here) had Jordan (Shaq's equivalent as a guard dominator) next to him and played in the 00's, you bet he'd have way more than 2 rings himself, while still doing more things than Kobe.

Note on rebounding: Wilt's and Russell's rebounding rates for most of their seasons are at around 20-21 throughout their whole careers (slightly higher in the playoffs). Rodman's are higher, but, completely unlike these two, Rodman contested almost zero shots, especially late in his career and in set game situations. If Wilt and Russell had 6-8 bpg seasons, imagine how many shots they contested. Take away their defensive efforts in the air and convert them into rebounding efforts, and their rates would jump up.

Here's some food for thought:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8-R3bBmhqU[/url]

This is Mutombo's 1994 First round series against the Sonics. He blocked 31 shots in 5 games, a Wilt/Russell-like figure. He retained possession of the ball (def.rebound) after only 4 of them (12.9% recuperation rate). His defensive rebounding rate that season was at 25.8, and it would be significantly higher if he didn't care about blocked shots - his blocks were 49% as many as his defensive rebounds! Rodman, in his rebounding prime, usually blocked less than 5% as many shots as the defensive rebounds he grabbed. Do the math. These great shot blockers are all better rebounders than what their rebounding rates show.

Sooo ... are people still claiming that Bryant is not top 10 all time ?

Julius Erving has been definitely been bumped out of his spot.

[QUOTE=Bob Cousy]Sooo ... are people still claiming that Bryant is not top 10 all time ?

Julius Erving has been definitely been bumped out of his spot.[/QUOTE]

Dr J is overlooked these days.

[QUOTE=PTB Fan]Dr J is overlooked these days.[/QUOTE]

As is Jerry West, Moses Malone, Oscar and even KG.

[QUOTE=jacobgoindum][B]PACE PACE PACE!!![/B]

BTW Kobe 5 rings, Wilt 2 rings[/QUOTE]

***********************************
Did you ever ask yourself this question:

"I wonder why the NBA's pace suddenly got so much faster in the 1959-60 season, and kept getting faster, and faster, until in 1962 it was blitzkrieg fastest pace of all time?"

That is a curious fact.... how and why did that happen, exactly? Do you know? Did you ever think about that?

***********************************
[QUOTE=jacobgoindum]PACE PACE PACE!!!

[B]BTW Kobe 5 rings, Wilt 2 rings[/B][/QUOTE]

***********************************

Did you ever ask yourself these questions:

* "I wonder who Kobe had on his team when he won those rings?"
* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"
* "How deep was his bench when he won?"
* "Did Kobe's team lose players to injuries?"
* "Did he have a great coach?

* "I wonder who Kobe had on his team when he did [I]not[/I] win rings?"
* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"
* "How deep was his bench when he lost?"
* "Did Kobe's team lose players to injuries?"
* "Did he have a great coach?

Or these:

* "I wonder who Wilt had on his team when he won those rings?"
* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"
* "How deep was his bench when he won?"
* "Did Wilt's team lose players to injuries?"
* "Did he have a great coach?

* "I wonder who Wilt had on his team when he did [I]not[/I] win rings?"
* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"
* "How deep was his bench when he lost?"
* "Did Wilt's team lose players to injuries?"
* "Did he have a great coach?

*********************************************

There are some curious factors when you start thinking deeper about the game.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]***********************************
Did you ever ask yourself this question:

"I wonder why the NBA's pace suddenly got so much faster in the 1959-60 season, and kept getting faster, and faster, until in 1962 it was blitzkrieg fastest pace of all time?"

That is a curious fact.... how and why did that happen, exactly? Do you know? Did you ever think about that?

***********************************


***********************************

Did you ever ask yourself these questions:

* "I wonder who Kobe had on his team when he won those rings?"
* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"
* "How deep was his bench when he won?"
* "Did Kobe's team lose players to injuries?"
* "Did he have a great coach?

* "I wonder who Kobe had on his team when he did [I]not[/I] win rings?"
* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"
* "How deep was his bench when he lost?"
* "Did Kobe's team lose players to injuries?"
* "Did he have a great coach?

Or these:

* "I wonder who Wilt had on his team when he won those rings?"
* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"
* "How deep was his bench when he won?"
* "Did Wilt's team lose players to injuries?"
* "Did he have a great coach?

* "I wonder who Wilt had on his team when he did [I]not[/I] win rings?"
* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"
* "How deep was his bench when he lost?"
* "Did Wilt's team lose players to injuries?"
* "Did he have a great coach?

*********************************************

There are some curious factors when you start thinking deeper about the game.[/QUOTE]

* "I wonder who Kobe had on his team when he won those rings?"

1 other all star/HOFer per title team

* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"

Yes for 3, no for 2

* "How deep was his bench when he won?"

Not deep at all

* "Did Kobe's team lose players to injuries?"

Sure.. a healthy Malone and Bynum/Ariza and we are potentially talking about 7 rings

* "Did he have a great coach?

Yes

:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]* "I wonder who Kobe had on his team when he won those rings?"

1 other all star/HOFer per title team

:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

LoL @ comparing Peak Shaq to an average All-Star or HoFamer.

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]* "I wonder who Kobe had on his team when he won those rings?"

1 other all star/HOFer per title team

* "Did he have one of the top 3 players in the league on his team?"

Yes for 3, no for 2

* "How deep was his bench when he won?"

Not deep at all

* "Did Kobe's team lose players to injuries?"

Sure.. a healthy Malone and Bynum/Ariza and we are potentially talking about 7 rings

* "Did he have a great coach?

Yes

:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

you gonna answer some questions but not the others? That's the same thing OP is doing

[QUOTE=32Dayz]Wilt is the 4th best player on the GOAT list.
Kobe is somewhere from 11-15 on the GOAT list.

By this simple and profound fact [B]Wilt > Kobe.[/B]
[B]
/Thread.[/B]

Jordan > Shaq > Kareem > Wilt > Magic > Bird > Hakeem > Duncan > Russell > West > (Oscar / Moses / Dr. J / Kobe / KG)[/QUOTE]



did kobe f*ck your mother or something? why are you in EVERY SINGLE thread related to kobe saying the same exact things? aright we get that you dislike him...

its getting repeatitive and pretty pathetic on your part -- if anything im starting to think your a bit obsessed at this point --

ive noticed a nation of kobe haters on this forum, but without a doubt you stand out the most!! --- do you have a life outside of home? any friends you can vent to about your hate for kobe?


damn son!

[QUOTE=mohmezherismaie]Posts: 2[/QUOTE]
Who's multi account are you? :oldlol:
:cheers:

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]you gonna answer some questions but not the others? That's the same thing OP is doing[/QUOTE]

Is there a point coming up?

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Is there a point coming up?[/QUOTE]

Are you too dumb to not understand that Peak Shaq is arguably the best player ever?

Not over a Career obviously but just over his Peak.

Your acting like Kobe won as the man on 5 teams while playing with an average all-star and no bench.

Your delusional as f*.

Kobe was in a Pippen role for 3 of his rings and was the 2nd best player on one of his other two ring winning teams.

Are we really supposed to put a player who was the best player on 1 championship team and who clearly isnt a Top 10 alltime playoff performer in the top 10?

Hell no.

:facepalm

[QUOTE=32Dayz]Are you too dumb to not understand that Peak Shaq is arguably the best player ever?

Not over a Career obviously but just over his Peak.

Your acting like Kobe won as the man on 5 teams while playing with an average all-star and no bench.

Your delusional as f*.

Kobe was in a Pippen role for 3 of his rings and was the 2nd best player on one of his other two ring winning teams.

Are we really supposed to put a player who was the best player on 1 championship team and who clearly isnt a Top 10 alltime playoff performer in the top 10?

Hell no.

:facepalm[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure Kobe has already shred the can't win without Shaq label. Did you not get the memo?

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]I'm pretty sure Kobe has already shred the can't win without Shaq label. Did you not get the memo?[/QUOTE]

He won a Ring in a weak year and against one of the weakest finals teams in recent history (Orlando).
He also won thanks to Gasols defense on Dwight and his own production
(20/10/2 60%FG)

Then he barely won another against Boston thanks mainly to Gasol stepping up and some major clutch moments by various roleplayers.

Just saying its not like he dominated the league without Shaq.

He did win more but with some really stacked teams and he was only the best player on 1 of those 2 teams.

[QUOTE=32Dayz]He won a Ring in a weak year and against one of the weakest finals teams in recent history (Orlando).
He also won thanks to Gasols defense on Dwight and his own production
(20/10/2 60%FG)

Then he barely won another against Boston thanks mainly to Gasol stepping up and some major clutch moments by various roleplayers.

Just saying its not like he dominated the league without Shaq.

He did win more but with some really stacked teams and he was only the best player on 1 of those 2 teams.[/QUOTE]

The Magic nearly won 60 games. :confusedshrug:

The Lakers were not historically stacked by any stretch of the imagination.

[QUOTE=32Dayz]He won a Ring in a weak year and against one of the weakest finals teams in recent history (Orlando).
He also won thanks to Gasols defense on Dwight and his own production
(20/10/2 60%FG)

Then he barely won another against Boston thanks mainly to Gasol stepping up and some major clutch moments by various roleplayers.

Just saying its not like he dominated the league without Shaq.

He did win more but with some really stacked teams and he was only the best player on 1 of those 2 teams.[/QUOTE]

This post is just idiotic. I've said it countless times that the Lakers were lucky to win two championships, but they still won. They got to the Finals THREE years in a row. That's ****ing hard to do, especially when your center is always injured, your play at point guard is spotty, and you have no depth. I wouldn't say he "dominated" the league, but then again, who has?

[QUOTE=LA_Showtime]This post is just idiotic. I've said it countless times that the Lakers were lucky to win two championships, but they still won. They got to the Finals THREE years in a row. That's ****ing hard to do, especially when your center is always injured, your play at point guard is spotty, and you have no depth. I wouldn't say he "dominated" the league, but then again, who has?[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't say they had no depth.

They had always managed to get a mix of some high quality roleplayers who stepped up when needed.

And the Combo of Kobe/Gasol was one of the best in the league + they had Prime Odom coming off the bench.

Those teams are underrated in general.

Even this year they have enough talent to contend despite losing Odom.

[QUOTE=mohmezherismaie]did kobe f*ck your mother or something? why are you in EVERY SINGLE thread related to kobe saying the same exact things? aright we get that you dislike him...

its getting repeatitive and pretty pathetic on your part -- if anything im starting to think your a bit obsessed at this point --

ive noticed a nation of kobe haters on this forum, but without a doubt you stand out the most!! --- do you have a life outside of home? any friends you can vent to about your hate for kobe?


damn son![/QUOTE]
Lmao
32Dayz gets destroyed by everyone everyday

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Is there a point coming up?[/QUOTE]

Did Chamberlain impact the NBA's pace, or was it just coincidence that he showed up and the entire league pace drastically increased?

Did Kobe impact the league to such an extent they had to re-write the entire rulebook? But even when the NBA made up all those new rules to stop him, did Kobe still break 150 records? [I]{P.S. there aren't any rules designed to stop Kobe}[/I]

Is Phil Jackson a better coach than Neil Johnston? What about Dolph Schayes or Dick McGuire or Joe Mulaney or Butch Van Breda Kopf? Is he a better coach than them?

Is Robert Horry better in his league than Tom Meschery was in his?

How about Tom Gola? Was he a better playoff performer in his league than........ ANY starter on Kobe's teams?

1959-60 12.6 ppg .412 fg% 10.6 reb 5.6 ast

1960-61 9.7 ppg [B].206 fg%[/B] 12.3 reb 5.0 ast

1961-62 6.3 ppg [B].271FG%[/B] 8.2 reb 2.7 ast

***************************************************
What about Lamar Odom ? Is he a better 6th man his league than Billy Cunningham was in '68 when he broke his arm in 3 places in the playoffs?

Is Elgin Baylor's 1970 and '71 playoff record better than Pau Gasol's 2009 & 2010 playoff record?

Speaking of the '71 playoffs, how did Wilt's star teammates Baylor and West perform? [I]{P.S. they both drew DNP}[/I]

If you don't see the point then, no, i guess not.

[QUOTE=Psileas]Note on rebounding: Wilt's and Russell's rebounding rates for most of their seasons are at around 20-21 throughout their whole careers (slightly higher in the playoffs). Rodman's are higher, but, completely unlike these two, Rodman contested almost zero shots, especially late in his career and in set game situations. If Wilt and Russell had 6-8 bpg seasons, imagine how many shots they contested. Take away their defensive efforts in the air and convert them into rebounding efforts, and their rates would jump up.

Here's some food for thought:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8-R3bBmhqU[/url]

This is Mutombo's 1994 First round series against the Sonics. He blocked 31 shots in 5 games, a Wilt/Russell-like figure. He retained possession of the ball (def.rebound) after only 4 of them (12.9% recuperation rate). His defensive rebounding rate that season was at 25.8, and it would be significantly higher if he didn't care about blocked shots - his blocks were 49% as many as his defensive rebounds! Rodman, in his rebounding prime, usually blocked less than 5% as many shots as the defensive rebounds he grabbed. Do the math. These great shot blockers are all better rebounders than what their rebounding rates show.[/QUOTE]

I've posted about this elsewhere. As of the 2010-11 season (when I posted this), in the seasons in which we have the data, there have been 72 seasons in which a player has grabbed 20% of all available rebounds. Of those 72 occurrences, only [B]eight times[/B] (11.1%) has a player actually blocked over three shots a game:

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]The highest single-season block percentages belong to Manute Bol, who was an anemic rebounder. On the career list, the best combination of shot-blocking and rebounding is Dikembe Mutombo, who blocked 6.28 percent of all available shots, and grabbed 19.1 percent of all available rebounds. Looking at the top single seasons:

1. Dennis Rodman* 29.73 1994-95 SAS
2. Dennis Rodman* 26.56 1995-96 CHI
3. Dennis Rodman* 26.19 1991-92 DET
4. Dennis Rodman* 25.99 1992-93 DET
5. Dennis Rodman* 25.74 1993-94 SAS
6. Dennis Rodman* 25.61 1996-97 CHI
7. Dennis Rodman* 24.08 1997-98 CHI
8. Jayson Williams 23.78 1995-96 NJN
9. Danny Fortson 23.70 1998-99 DEN
10. Kevin Love 23.63 2010-11 MIN

Not a single shotblocker to be found. Let

When u put up the numbers Wilt did AND revolutionize the sport, it's VERY HARD to pass up Wilt. Kobe's has sick numbers, a ton rings, etc. But Kobe didn't revolutionize the SG spot. Wilt has those two things on his side like a Magic, Bird, MJ, and Kareem. All five of these guys revolutionized their positions. Even Duncan, KG, and Dirk did it at the same time for the PF position. Kobe was so similar to MJ that u can't out MJ MJ! lol

However if Kobe keeps padding that resume, who knows how far he will go up the GOAT charts. But guys like MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, and Magic are MYTHIC type figures. It's like Ali and Ray Robinson in boxing. Or baseball wise it's like Ruth, Mays, Ted Williams, or Aaron. Some guys have a certain mystique that keeps them at the top even if certain guys resumes may be better. It seems Kobe maybe in that boat. We shall see!

La Fres...

Wilt was a second option in '69 when Jerry West averaged 38 PPG in the '69 Finals and had 42 points, 13 rebounds, and 12 assists in game 7
not only that, Elgin Baylor was on the team too (top 20 player alltime)
And they DIDN'T win the championship

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]La Fres...

Wilt was a second option in '69 when Jerry West averaged 38 PPG in the '69 Finals and had 42 points, 13 rebounds, and 12 assists in game 7
not only that, Elgin Baylor was on the team too (top 20 player alltime)
And they DIDN'T win the championship[/QUOTE]

Wilt>>>Kobe. Deal with it, Poop Bigego

[QUOTE=RRR3]Wilt>>>Kobe. Deal with it, Poop Bigego[/QUOTE]
Go watch some Tmac playoff highlights fool

and according to Sam Jones (teammate of Bill Russell during 50's/60's, won 10 rings) Kobe is 3rd best player ever

[QUOTE=32Dayz]Are you too dumb to not understand that Peak Shaq is arguably the best player ever?

Not over a Career obviously but just over his Peak.

Your acting like Kobe won as the man on 5 teams while playing with an average all-star and no bench.

Your delusional as f*.

Kobe was in a Pippen role for 3 of his rings and was the 2nd best player on one of his other two ring winning teams.

Are we really supposed to put a player who was the best player on 1 championship team and who clearly isnt a Top 10 alltime playoff performer in the top 10?

Hell no.

:facepalm[/QUOTE]

Do you consider peak Shaq > any version of Wilt?

Wilt for now.

VS Boston - 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, 10.0 apg, 6+ bpg, 56% FG, 51% FT


[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFrhKI63e80#t=6m30s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFrhKI63e80#t=6m30s[/URL]


[B]Season of the 76ers: the story of Wilt Chamberlain and the 1967 NBA champion Philadelphia 76ers[/B] - Wayne Lynch

[I]As soon as the 76ers reached the dressing room after their exhilarating last quarter that had given them a 140-116 victory, Wilt made a speech: "we've got to get four more wins before this season is over. Let's not lose sight of that," He was forceful, almost solemn. Such an attitude had as much to do with Philadelphia's success as Wilt's unmatched physical endowments. The key word was spoken afterwards by Alex Hannum, the 76er coach: "He was dedicated out there."[/I]


[IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/2a6pceb.gif[/IMG]

[B]This Topic is funny.

Get Real People ...Wilt Needed Rule Changes to Stop Him From Dominating Too Much.

Kobe wasn`t even Better than Garnett in his Prime, Duncan in his Prime, Hakeem in his Prime, Charles Barkley in his Prime, David Robinson in Prime, Magic in his Prime, Bird in his Prime and Shaq in his Prime.

All those players statistically are more Efficient and Dominant.[/B]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]This Topic is funny.

Get Real People ...Wilt Needed Rule Changes to Stop Him From Dominating Too Much.

Kobe wasn`t even Better than Garnett in his Prime, Duncan in his Prime, Hakeem in his Prime, Charles Barkley in his Prime, David Robinson in Prime, Magic in his Prime, Bird in his Prime and Shaq in his Prime.

All those players statistically are more Efficient and Dominant.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well since you love PER, I'll play your game

PER

Magic Johnson

Season
Peak: 27.0
Career: 24.1
Playoffs
Peak: 26.2
Career: 22.9

Larry Bird

Season
Peak: 26.5
Career: 23.5
Playoffs
Peak: 26.3
Career: 21.4

Kobe Bryant

Season
Peak: 28.0
Career: 23.6
Playoffs
Peak: 26.8
Career: 22.3

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]This Topic is funny.

Get Real People ...Wilt Needed Rule Changes to Stop Him From Dominating Too Much.

Kobe wasn`t even Better than Garnett in his Prime, Duncan in his Prime, Hakeem in his Prime, Charles Barkley in his Prime, David Robinson in Prime, Magic in his Prime, Bird in his Prime and Shaq in his Prime.

All those players statistically are more Efficient and Dominant.[/B][/QUOTE]
Prime Kobe = Prime Garnett = Prime Chuck.

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Well since you love PER, I'll play your game

PER

Magic Johnson

Season
Peak: 27.0
Career: 24.1
Playoffs
Peak: 26.2
Career: 22.9

Larry Bird

Season
Peak: 26.5
Career: 23.5
Playoffs
Peak: 26.3
Career: 21.4

Kobe Bryant

Season
Peak: 28.0
Career: 23.6
Playoffs
Peak: 26.8
Career: 22.3[/QUOTE]

[B]The difference was that Magic and Bird played with alot of HOFs and or All Stars so their games where based on Team Game instead of an Individual Game (Kobe always). Playing with alot of HOFs and Stars lowers your PER especially if you have 3-4 All Stars or HOFs playing together.

I think you should compare their PERs according to their time and where they locate among their generation of players.

Bird i think lead 2 Seasons in PER or 1 and he stayed among the Best in the Play-Offs. For Magic he had one of the Highest PER in the Play-Offs and what he did in the Finals was just unreal. Bird had 2 Rings without McHale as a Starter. Lets not forget that. Also, Bird averaged a Triple Double in the 1986 Finals.

Bird and Magic are also Highe in EFF and Plus/Minus. Probably also Higher in Shot Made/Missed Diferential too[/B]

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]Did Chamberlain impact the NBA's pace, or was it just coincidence that he showed up and the entire league pace drastically increased?

Did Kobe impact the league to such an extent they had to re-write the entire rulebook? But even when the NBA made up all those new rules to stop him, did Kobe still break 150 records? [I]{P.S. there aren't any rules designed to stop Kobe}[/I]

Is Phil Jackson a better coach than Neil Johnston? What about Dolph Schayes or Dick McGuire or Joe Mulaney or Butch Van Breda Kopf? Is he a better coach than them?

Is Robert Horry better in his league than Tom Meschery was in his?

How about Tom Gola? Was he a better playoff performer in his league than........ ANY starter on Kobe's teams?

1959-60 12.6 ppg .412 fg% 10.6 reb 5.6 ast

1960-61 9.7 ppg [B].206 fg%[/B] 12.3 reb 5.0 ast

1961-62 6.3 ppg [B].271FG%[/B] 8.2 reb 2.7 ast

***************************************************
What about Lamar Odom ? Is he a better 6th man his league than Billy Cunningham was in '68 when he broke his arm in 3 places in the playoffs?

Is Elgin Baylor's 1970 and '71 playoff record better than Pau Gasol's 2009 & 2010 playoff record?

Speaking of the '71 playoffs, how did Wilt's star teammates Baylor and West perform? [I]{P.S. they both drew DNP}[/I]

If you don't see the point then, no, i guess not.[/QUOTE]


Yeah forgive me if I don't see the merit of debating unremarkable bench players from different eras.

Did Wilt play with any all stars?

Did he play with any HOFers?

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]The difference was that Magic and Bird played with alot of HOFs and or All Stars so their games where based on Team Game instead of an Individual Game (Kobe always). Playing with alot of HOFs and Stars lowers your PER especially if you have 3-4 All Stars or HOFs playing together.

I think you should compare their PERs according to their time and where they locate among their generation of players.

Bird i think lead 2 Seasons in PER or 1 and he stayed among the Best in the Play-Offs. For Magic he had one of the Highest PER in the Play-Offs and what he did in the Finals was just unreal. Bird had 2 Rings without McHale as a Starter. Lets not forget that. Also, Bird averaged a Triple Double in the 1986 Finals.

Bird and Magic are also Highe in EFF and Plus/Minus. Probably also Higher in Shot Made/Missed Diferential too[/B][/QUOTE]
Kobe's 2009 Playoff run had a 26.8 PER (higher PER than any of Magic's and Bird's best playoff runs) and had a 28.3 PER in the 2009 Finals (Higher than any of Magic's, Bird's, Hakeem's, Kareem's best Finals performances)

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Yeah forgive me if I don't see the merit of debating unremarkable bench players from different eras.

Did Wilt play with any all stars?

Did he play with any HOFers?[/QUOTE]

Chamberlain, with LITTLE help, faced the Celtic Dynasty in TEN of his 14 seasons. Those Celtic teams ranged from FIVE to NINE HOFers on EACH roster. Then, Wilt faced the Knicks in the post-season, FOUR more seasons, and those Knick teams had between FOUR to SIX HOFers on each of them.

I tell you what, give me another "great" that had to go thru team's that collectively had TEN HOFers, in three straight playoff series, like Wilt's '67 Sixers faced (and they ROUTED all three of those teams BTW.)

And La Frescobaldi already DESTROYED the Simmons' MYTH that Wilt played with as many HOFers as Russell. Russell played alongside his HOF teammates in 71 FULL seasons...while Wilt got 20 FULL seasons from his.

The fact that Wilt could single-handedly carry his 61-62 and 64-65 rosters to within a TOTAL of THREE points, in two game seven's is truly remarkable. He also took a roster that couldn't beat a team of rookies and scrubs in a pre-season scrimmage (sans Wilt, of course) to a 48-32 record in the '64 season, and a trip to the Finals, where they lost to Russell's Celtics, and their 8-2 edge in HOFers, 4-1. And two of those losses were decided in the last few seconds. All with a cast of clowns, who played even WORSE in the post-season.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Yeah forgive me if I don't see the merit of debating unremarkable bench players from different eras.

Did Wilt play with any all stars?

Did he play with any HOFers?[/QUOTE]

All those guys were starters except Odom & Billy C

HoFers? Like Tom Gola? The guy who shot .206% in the playoffs - yeah he's HoF

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]La Fres...

Wilt was a second option in '69 when Jerry West averaged 38 PPG in the '69 Finals and had 42 points, 13 rebounds, and 12 assists in game 7
not only that, Elgin Baylor was on the team too (top 20 player alltime)
And they DIDN'T win the championship[/QUOTE]

How about this...

A Baylor who shot a team WORST .385 from the floor in that post-season?

Or Baylor and West collectively shooting 1-14 in the 4th quarter of game three, a six point loss. Baylor scored a TOTAL of 24 points in games three thru five (two of the losses.) Or the fact that Baylor shot 8-22 from the field in that game seven, two-point loss. Or the fact that, while Chamberlain went 7-8 from the floor in that game seven, his teammates collectively shot .360 from the field in that game.

Oh, and incidently, how about West in the 71-72 playoffs, when he shot .376 during the entire playoffs, and get this, .325 in the Finals. Meanwhile, Wilt shutdown Kareem in the WCF's, particularly in the clinching game six win, and then dominated the Knicks in the Finals, particularly in the clinching game five win, en route to a FMVP.

lol @ Wilt Chamberlian with an argument for GOAT :facepalm

[QUOTE=zizozain]lol @ Wilt Chamberlian with an argument for GOAT :facepalm[/QUOTE]

Yeah...just because he STILL holds some 100+ NBA records. Or that he absolutely crushed his peers(and his opposing centers...MANY of whom are in the HOF) throughout his career, like NO OTHER player ever did. Or that the NBA had to create MULTIPLE RULES to curtail his domination.

Or that he was one of the GREATEST PLAYOFF performers of all-time, especially in BIG games. And that he usually just MURDERED his opposing centers in those playoffs.

Yep... no case.

Wilt beat up on friggin bums

[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]Wilt beat up on friggin bums[/QUOTE]

Yep...players like Bellamy, Reed, Cowens, Hayes, Thurmond, McAdoo, Unseld, Thurmond, Russell, and Kareem...all in the HOF.