Printable View
[QUOTE=chazzy]What the f*ck does he do for a living then?[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtLw6MPXZrM[/url]
Listen to the beginning....he's nothing more than a stat nerd himself....when did he ever pick up an NBA basketball, or coach an NBA team??
Put the advanced stats in the garbage NERD.
[QUOTE=28renyoy]Shot selection is part of being a great scorer. LeBron and Durant rarely take the shots Bryant does because they're sub 40% shots that just hurt their teams.[/QUOTE]
And how many rings have those two collected with the high percentage shots they've taken?
[QUOTE=pegasus]Had Kobe not taken all of those last second end of quarter shots, he would have averaged almost exactly the same but shot about .025 better.
He took 22138 shots in his 1135-game career. He probably takes 2 of those shots every game, but let's just say he takes 1. That means he could have averaged the same number of points by taking 22138-1135= 21003 shots while making the same amount of baskets, which is 10052. His FG% goes up to .479, which is very good for a volume scorer.
That would have also increased his 3 point % to .440, assuming 90% of those last second shots were 3 pointers, which is very likely.[B]Don't even tell me that he hasn't taken those shots throughout his entire career, and you damn well know there are certain players who won't take those shots even if their lives depended on.[/B][/QUOTE]
See tonight's game. Right before the buzzer Lebron passed the ball to Joel fuc*king Anthony at the half court:facepalm And Evans just made a half court shot at the end of the 1st quarter.
This is why Kobe is a winner, and Lebron is a perpetual loser
The flaws in TS% are so easy to pick out it's pathetic...
The lower the FG/FT ratio, the higher the TS%....LOL at the fools who think certain players force the action into where they get a higher amount of FT's to FG's....REFS play a bigger part in that than they do.
Apparently TS% lovers like to cite Chauncy Billups....why, cuz he gets more FTs to FGs than most players....:rolleyes:
PLEASE, save your bullcrap for retarded people. :violin:
[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]TS% also factors in the amount of shots one has taken from the field including FTs. I know you don't like TS% so we can just agree to disagree in this case.
Kobe scored more points in '05 than he did in '09 with less FGA and more FTA. That's why his TS% was higher. Like I said, being a better scorer goes beyond just who scores more ppg and has a higher FG%, eFG%, and TS% though.[/QUOTE]
I think it depends on your definition of a scorer.
There are players who could score a lot more, but choose not to. It's hard to tell which players could do this since it doesn't really come up in stats I don't think, you just have to watch the games.
There's players who score efficiently.
There's players who score anywhere from the floor.
And there's players that could just get points up on the board, like Iverson or something.
Of course I think that putting up points with a certain amount of efficiency is a good indication of who is the best scorer, but everyone has their own interpretation.
On topic:
Kobe's been ok in terms of being efficient. He was a little bit below league average I think? You can argue is because he shot at a high volume, and he was a perimeter player. Nowadays tho, there are a lot of perimeter players who could score a bunch of points with more efficiency. Regardless, Kobe stayed consistent of his average efficiency. lol
[QUOTE=bwink23]Here's a prime example how FT's (officiating) affects TS%:
2005 Kobe Bryant = 56.3% TS%.
2009 Kobe Bryant = 56.1% TS%.....:facepalm
2005 Bryant = 43.3%FG, 33.9% 3's, 81.6%FT..
2009 Bryant = 46.7%FG, 35.1% 3's, 85.6%FT.. :wtf:
Now who here would argue that Kobe was better during the 2005 season vs. 2009?? I would hope NO ONE, if your smart.
How does Kobe shoot better in every aspect of shooting, but have a WORSE TS%??
Easy, FT's.....2005 = 10.1 FT's a game....2009 = 6.9 FT's a game.
This more than proves how TS % is absolute GARBAGE when judging a players scoring efficiency....
If your shooting better in every aspect of scoring across the board....you were a better shooter that year, PERIOD>[/QUOTE]
There's a difference to being the better shooter and the better scorer.
For example Steve Novak vs Lebron James.
[QUOTE=ZenMaster]There's a difference to being the better shooter and the better scorer.
For example Steve Novak vs Lebron James.[/QUOTE]
But we are talking about the SAME SCORER here....Kobe shot the ball all year long better in 2009 than in 2005...
I don't give 2 shits what the TS% says about that...if you take X-amount of FG's, FTs and 3's in a season and shoot better than another season across the board...You sure as hell were the more efficient scorer. Period.
[QUOTE=bwink23]The flaws in TS% are so easy to pick out it's pathetic...
The lower the FG/FT ratio, the higher the TS%....LOL at the fools who think certain players force the action into where they get a higher amount of FT's to FG's....REFS play a bigger part in that than they do.
Apparently TS% lovers like to cite Chauncy Billups....why, cuz he gets more FTs to FGs than most players....:rolleyes:
PLEASE, save your bullcrap for retarded people. :violin:[/QUOTE]
You should try and coach a basketball team and use the philosophy "free throws are random" and see how far you get.
bitchwink23 still failing.
[QUOTE=bwink23]But we are talking about the SAME SCORER here....Kobe shot the ball all year long better in 2009 than in 2005...
I don't give 2 shits what the TS% says about that...if you take X-amount of FG's, FTs and 3's in a season and shoot better than another season across the board...You sure as hell were the more efficient scorer. Period.[/QUOTE]
You're wrong, FT/FG(free throw rate) is very important because there's a direct correlation between amount of free throws shot and games won.
Even though you're talking about the same scorer he was still a better shooter one year, and a better scorer the other.
[QUOTE=ZenMaster]You're wrong, FT/FG(free throw rate) is very important because there's a direct correlation between amount of free throws shot and games won.
Even though you're talking about the same scorer [B]he was still a better shooter one year, and a better scorer the other.[/B][/QUOTE]
PLEASEEEEE......:no:
Your not a better scorer when your shooting worse in all aspects of the game...
SHOOTING = SCORING...you can't score if you can't shoot....
The refs giving Kobe an abnormal amount of foul shots, doesn't make a Kobe a better scorer. He simply was getting calls.
NO ONE is gonna call a player who shoots worse than another guy in every aspect a better scorer cuz the refs give him whistles....:sleeping
[QUOTE=bwink23]
The refs giving Kobe an abnormal amount of foul shots, doesn't make a Kobe a better scorer. He simply was getting calls.
[/QUOTE]
No, he was attacking the basket more and was more athletic. He was past his physical peak in 09. 09 Kobe isn't getting to the line 10 times in 05
bwink23 is a fool
[QUOTE=bwink23]PLEASEEEEE......:no:
Your not a better scorer when your shooting worse in all aspects of the game...
SHOOTING = SCORING...you can't score if you can't shoot....
[B]The refs giving Kobe an abnormal amount of foul shots, doesn't make a Kobe a better scorer. He simply was getting calls.
NO ONE is gonna call a player who shoots worse than another guy in every aspect a better scorer cuz the refs give him whistles[/B]....:sleeping[/QUOTE]
Apparently that's your perception of how officiating in basketball works.
My perception is that players work and set themselves up for opportunites to draw fouls, it's something they along with how the team plays offensively affect.
Some players try and create contact and finish through it, others try to shy away from it to get a cleaner shot with less chance of a fouls.
Like I said, try and coach a basketball team from the philosophy that free throws are random and see how far you get.
... Cos he's got smaller mits than Mike.
Kobe is inefficient because he takes dumb shots that go in like 1/3rd or less of the time. Rational people know if Kobe didn't play so stupid a lot of the time, he could be shooting over 50%.
-Smak
[QUOTE=ZenMaster]Apparently that's your perception of how officiating in basketball works.
My perception is that players work and set themselves up for opportunites to draw fouls, it's something they along with how the team plays offensively affect.
Some players try and create contact and finish through it, others try to shy away from it to get a cleaner shot with less chance of a fouls.
Like I said, try and coach a basketball team from the philosophy that free throws are random and see how far you get.[/QUOTE]
Just, just STOP IT.....:facepalm :facepalm
The impact officiating has on foul calls is far more profound. How many FT's does Durant lose without the "rip-thru" move eliminated this year??
I don't care WHO you are....the amount of FT's you get doesn't determine your efficiency as a scorer. PERIOD>:hammerhead:
Anyone can tell their team to attack the basket and go for more foul calls....that doesn't change anything about a player's scoring abilities. Usage rate and officiating determines foul attempts, not players.
Haters gonna hate as always.
Volume scorer on average efficiency = great scorer. He can hit a high amount of shots at an average rate of an ordinary player. Not many guys can put up that many kind of shots.
Also you need to know where Kobe plays...on the perimeter/midrange taking tons of difficult contested jumpers when his team cannot create anything. Of course his percentage suffers. But guess what he frees up the inside for his big men to operate. Guys like Lebron and Jordan play closer to the basket and get better percentages.
So if you put together a bunch of high efficiency players your team will always win? They'd probably get in each others way....just look at Wade and Lebron. Both need the ball in their hands and slash to the basket so they get in each others way. If you play Shaq and Duncan together things are gonna get horrible as both are low post players.
Not saying that Kobe is better than all those guys, but using these statistics as an argument just shows illogical hate on your part.
[QUOTE=Pinkhearts]Haters gonna hate as always.
Volume scorer on average efficiency = great scorer. He can hit a high amount of shots at an average rate of an ordinary player. Not many guys can put up that many kind of shots.
Also you need to know where Kobe plays...on the perimeter/midrange taking tons of difficult contested jumpers when his team cannot create anything. Of course his percentage suffers. But guess what he frees up the inside for his big men to operate. Guys like Lebron and Jordan play closer to the basket and get better percentages.
So if you put together a bunch of high efficiency players your team will always win? They'd probably get in each others way....just look at Wade and Lebron. Both need the ball in their hands and slash to the basket so they get in each others way. If you play Shaq and Duncan together things are gonna get horrible as both are low post players.
Not saying that Kobe is better than all those guys, but using these statistics as an argument just shows illogical hate on your part.[/QUOTE]
Pay no attention to the dancing a**clown known as bwink23. The moron is a pathetic Kobe hater who clearly knows nothing about basketball. Disregard anything he says.:sleeping
[QUOTE=ILLsmak]Kobe is inefficient because he takes dumb shots that go in like 1/3rd or less of the time. Rational people know if Kobe didn't play so stupid a lot of the time, he could be shooting over 50%.
-Smak[/QUOTE]
:applause: :applause: :applause:
[QUOTE=LakersReign]Pay no attention to the dancing a**clown known as bwink23. The moron is a pathetic Kobe[B] hater who clearly knows nothing about basketball.[/B] Disregard anything he says.:sleeping[/QUOTE]
You make this same statement in 70% of everything you post, LOL!!! are you mental?? Your telling people to disregard stuff, yet here you are, NOT disregarding yourself.
Congratulations, another uneventful post from your truly...the worst poster in all of ISH....FakersRain.....:hammerhead:
[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]so far the most efficient player in the nba has been the biggest underachiver and choker over the past 9 years
so.... whats effiency ever won anyone?
is there a PER trophy?[/QUOTE]
If by underachievement you mean 2
It's cause people mad cause their idol would shoot 30% given the looks Kobe gets (whether it be his fault or when his teammates give him the ball with the clock winding down).
[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]I agree.
People think we can judge who is a superior scorer simply based on who scores more ppg, higher TS%, higher FG%, higher eFG%, but the truth is that it goes beyond that. There are a numerous of other factors to determine who is the better scorer and why some players stats are like the way they are.
LeBron has never been the best scorer in the league to me despite the fact that he has led the league in scoring at some point and is efficient. The reason why he was never the best scorer in the league to me was because I could never depend on him in the clutch like I could with Kobe back in his prime ('06-'09) or Durant today.
There are too many factors that people love to ignore because of the amount of numerical data we have access to. Sadly, the numerical data does not give us all of the information.[/QUOTE]
The funniest thing to to me is watching obvious idiotic Lebronites, quoting stats like we're supposed to believe they really know what they mean. They can't form a single coherent defense for the things they say, but are quick to quote stats to try and make it look they do. Then whenever you challenge them, they haul a**, proving they truly know nothing of what they speak. It's like in algebra/geometry/calculus class, when you're given an equation, and told to not only give the answer, but also how you got the answer. There was always that one kid in class, who pretended to be mr know-it-all, and would give an answer, just to try and show off at how smart he supposedly was. But when asked to show how he arrived at that solution, had no answer, proving how full of sh*t he is. Same applies to Lebronites.:rolleyes:
AWWWW man!!!!
I wrote this big long post and accidentally deleted it. God damn it.
[QUOTE=Pinkhearts]Haters gonna hate as always.
Volume scorer on average efficiency = great scorer. He can hit a high amount of shots at an average rate of an ordinary player. Not many guys can put up that many kind of shots.
[B]Also you need to know where Kobe plays...on the perimeter/midrange taking tons of difficult contested jumpers when his team cannot create anything. Of course his percentage suffers.[/B] But guess what he frees up the inside for his big men to operate. Guys like Lebron and Jordan play closer to the basket and get better percentages.
So if you put together a bunch of high efficiency players your team will always win? They'd probably get in each others way....just look at Wade and Lebron. Both need the ball in their hands and slash to the basket so they get in each others way. If you play Shaq and Duncan together things are gonna get horrible as both are low post players.
Not saying that Kobe is better than all those guys, but using these statistics as an argument just shows illogical hate on your part.[/QUOTE]
Sometimes that's his own fault tho. He has bad shot selection. There are ways for him to get out of that and get more open for his shots, but he doesn't do it.
[QUOTE=tmacattack33]A lot.
Since MJ (another efficient player) left:
[B]Tim Duncan and Shaq won many titles due to their amazing and efficient play. As did Wade and Dirk.[/B]
Meanwhile, inefficient players like Iverson, Francis, V. Carter, and Marbury came into the league with all the hype and never won a thing.[/QUOTE]
Dunk and Shaq are post players you tool.....they play close to the basket. Wade plays at the rim. Kobe is primarily a jump shooter whom consistently get 85+% of his points from jumpers. He's not inefficient and never was....
Dirk was the furthest thing from efficient in the NBA finals. PER is trash.
Because for the simple reason all his main rivals in the top 3-5 over the years have always shot around 48-50% and thats all people have compared him with. Wade and Lebron are good examples of that.
[QUOTE=All Net]Because for the simple reason all his main rivals in the top 3-5 over the years have always shot around 48-50% and thats all people have compared him with. Wade and Lebron are good examples of that.[/QUOTE]
His rivals were way more inefficient than he was back in the early 2000s.
[QUOTE=iDefend5]His rivals were way more inefficient than he was back in the early 2000s.[/QUOTE]
who cares about early 00's?:confusedshrug:
Current perimeter superstars are simply much better and efficient than the ones 10 years ago - simple fact. The things which were considered "elite" back then are a norm nowadays. Hell, Lebron is having the most efficient season ever for a perimeter superstar player, yet everyone acts like it's a normal thing LMAO
[QUOTE=madmax]who cares about early 00's?:confusedshrug:
Current perimeter superstars are simply much better and efficient than the ones 10 years ago - simple fact. The things which were considered "elite" back then are a norm nowadays. Hell, Lebron is having the most efficient season ever for a perimeter superstar player, yet everyone acts like it's a normal thing LMAO[/QUOTE]
thats because he stopped beinga perimeter player
Classic Kobe-stans...
Hey, Kobe isn't inefficient. Look at the relative league averages!
Hey, how can Bill Russell be in top 5 ever with that fg%?!?!
I guess we should congratulate Kobe for being average...
:oldlol: :oldlol:
A better question should be 'Why are there still so many topics concerning Kobe?'.
Because of his bad shot selection and when compared to guys who had higher overall efficiency than him.. he gets blamed. It's not like he wasn't capable.. but he took too many bad shots such as contested fade away over two defenders etc.
And in the all time debate where there were players with higher efficiency, this hurts him a bit.
because he has way too many 7-26 games for a player of his [I]supposed[/I] caliber.
[QUOTE=iDefend5]His rivals were way more inefficient than he was back in the early 2000s.[/QUOTE]
His rivals weren't playing with the most dominant big sucking up all the defensive pressure either.
[QUOTE=RazorBaLade]thats because he stopped beinga perimeter player[/QUOTE]
FOOL....perimeter players' jobs aren't to stand on the wings and shoot jumpers...THAT'S NOT THEIR JOB....it's to create plays that lead to easy scores. The easiest scores are near the rim...if you can get there, that makes you more effective and dangerous, cuz now your making the defense react, which leads to kick outs for open shots.
You can't fault Lebron for being able to do what Kobe can't.
[QUOTE=f0und]because he has way too many 7-26 games for a player of his [I]supposed[/I] caliber.[/QUOTE]
Really? how many?
[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]I don't get it.
The league average for FG% from 2000-2010 was around the 44-46% range and that is exactly the range Kobe shot from 2000-2010, so how exactly was he inefficient? How is he also inefficient when he always shot in the 55% to 57% range in TS% when the league average of TS% from 2000-2010 was always around the 52-54% range?
If I had to take a guess though it is because Michael Jordan's FG% was always in the 50% so the fact that his FG% was below Jordan's FG% all of a suddenly makes him inefficient opposed to not being as efficient as Michael Jordan. I think some people need to fix their word usage here because that doesn't make Kobe inefficient, just not as efficient or as good as MJ.
It's pretty funny how bad these MJ-Kobe comparisons have damaged Kobe's legacy.
Here are the actual League average for FG%
2000-2001 - 44.3%
2001-2002 - 44.5%
2002-2003 - 44.2%
2003-2004 - 43.9%
2004-2005 - 44.7%
2005-2006 - 45.4%
2006-2007 - 45.8%
2007-2008 - 45.7%
2008-2009 - 45.9%
2009-2010 - 46.1%
Kobe's FG% from '01-'10 (his prime) +/- means how much better or worse than it is compared to league average.
2000-2001 - 46.4% - +2.1
2001-2002 - 46.9% - +2.4
2002-2003 - 45.1% - +0.9
2003-2004 - 43.8% - -0.1
2004-2005 - 43.3% - -1.4
2005-2006 - 45.0% - -0.4
2006-2007 - 46.3% - +0.5
2007-2008 - 45.9% - +0.2
2008-2009 - 46.7% - +0.8
2009-2010 - 45.6% - -0.5
Funny for three of the seasons of the four seasons where his FG% were seasons where he suffered injuries. (all except '05-'06).
Here are Kobe's TS% and eFG% compared to the league average
Kobe's TS% from '01-'10 (his prime)
2000-2001 - 55.2% - +3.4
2001-2002 - 54.4% - +2.4
2002-2003 - 55.0% - +3.1
2003-2004 - 55.1% - +3.5
2004-2005 - 56.3% - +3.3
2005-2006 - 55.9% - +2.4
2006-2007 - 58.0% - +3.9
2007-2008 - 57.6% - +3.6
2008-2009 - 56.1% - +1.5
2009-2010 - 54.5% - +0.2
Kobe's eFG% from '01-'10 (his prime)
2000-2001 - 48.4% - +1.1
2001-2002 - 47.9% - +0.2
2002-2003 - 48.3% - +1.0
2003-2004 - 46.8% - -0.3
2004-2005 - 48.2% - the exact league average
2005-2006 - 49.1% - +0.2
2006-2007 - 50.2% - +0.6
2007-2008 - 50.3% - +0.5
2008-2009 - 48.8% - -1.1
2009-2010 - 48.7% - -1.4[/QUOTE]
So is Kobe just a league-average level player? He's considered inefficient because compared to not only the GOAT but also his contemporary mega-star peers (James, Wade, and formerly CP), he is quite inefficient.
[QUOTE=f0und]because he has way too many 7-26 games for a player of his [I]supposed[/I] caliber.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:
[IMG]http://up353.siz.co.il/up3/zylawzz0m4mz.jpg[/IMG]
he only got 8 of those in 16 seasons! that means he got 0.5 of those every season:roll: :roll: