[QUOTE=bwink23]Take any season of pippens and pluck out the 30-point games and assists and let's compare.[/QUOTE]
I didn't ask you that.
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[QUOTE=bwink23]Take any season of pippens and pluck out the 30-point games and assists and let's compare.[/QUOTE]
I didn't ask you that.
[QUOTE=bwink23]30-point games from Pippen by year...
1992 = 3
1993 = 3
1994= 8
1995 = 10
1996= 7
1997 = 8
Total = 39 in 6 years.
Magic Johnson from 1986-1991:
1986 = 6
1987 = 21
1988 = 5
1989 = 12
1990 = 14
1991 = 9
Total = 67 in 6 years....and the assists are NOT EVEN CLOSE.[/QUOTE]
1st the offense the laker ran and the offense the bulls ran is totally different
2nd the era magic played in and the era pippen played in were totally different
3rd-10th pippen played with jordan.
[QUOTE=bwink23]30-point games from Pippen by year...
1992 = 3
1993 = 3
1994= 8
1995 = 10
1996= 7
1997 = 8
Total = 39 in 6 years.
Magic Johnson from 1986-1991:
1986 = 6
1987 = 21
1988 = 5
1989 = 12
1990 = 14
1991 = 9
Total = 67 in 6 years....and the assists are NOT EVEN CLOSE.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention that Magic's scoring efficiency destroys Pippen's.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]1st the offense the laker ran and the offense the bulls ran is totally different
2nd the era magic played in and the era pippen played in were totally different
3rd-10th pippen played with jordan.[/QUOTE]
Pippen is not the offensive player Magic Johnson was....GET OVER IT.
[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Not to mention that Magic's scoring efficiency destroys Pippen's.[/QUOTE]
You gonna go that route? Pippen played in a better defensive era. Context bro.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]You gonna go that route? Pippen played in a better defensive era. Context bro.[/QUOTE]
1991 - Magic 19.4 ppg/62.3% TS, Pippen 17.8 ppg/56.1% TS
No context needed. Magic was just a vastly more efficient scorer than Pippen at equal or better volume.
[QUOTE=bwink23]Pippen is not the offensive player Magic Johnson was....GET OVER IT.[/QUOTE]
Magic is worthless as a defender. Get over it.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]You gonna go that route? Pippen played in a better defensive era. Context bro.[/QUOTE]
Pippen played in 88, 89, 90, 91, as well....Pippen isn't fit to carry Magic Johnson's jock strap. Magic came back for a little while a shell of his former self in 1996 and did this per 36 minutes:
17.6ppg, 6.9 rebs, 8.3 assists, 37.9% from 3, and 46.6% from the field...at 36 years old and 5 years removed from the game, from the POWER FORWARD position.....:facepalm
Stop putting Pippen on Magic's level, your embarassing yourself.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Magic is worthless as a defender. Get over it.[/QUOTE]
there's nothing Scottie can do defensively that puts him in the category of Magic OR Bird for that matter....GET OVER IT.
[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]1991 - Magic 19.4 ppg/62.3% TS, Pippen 17.8 ppg/56.1% TS
No context needed. Magic was just a vastly more efficient scorer than Pippen at equal or better volume.[/QUOTE]
Different offense. And ts greatly awards fts.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Magic is worthless as a defender. Get over it.[/QUOTE]
Scottie couldn't even hit FREETHROWS.....:facepalm
Magic Johnson was a peak 85-90% FT shooter.
[QUOTE=bwink23]Pippen played in 88, 89, 90, 91, as well....Pippen isn't fit to carry Magic Johnson's jock strap. Magic came back for a little while a shell of his former self in 1996 and did this per 36 minutes:
17.6ppg, 6.9 rebs, 8.3 assists, 37.9% from 3, and 46.6% from the field...at 36 years old and 5 years removed from the game, from the POWER FORWARD position.....:facepalm
Stop putting Pippen on Magic's level, your embarassing yourself.[/QUOTE]
Lol you gonna count pippens rookie and second year. Ok pippens won more more championships and has a higher alltime win percentage.
And magic didnt avg 18 ppg in 96. Oh, I see your counting his per 36 min stats. Lol. Ill give you this. Magics defense at 36 years old was as bad as it was at 27.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]L[B]ol you gonna count pippens rookie and second year.[/B] Ok pippens won more more championships and has a higher alltime win percentage.
And magic didnt avg 18 ppg in 96. Oh, I see your counting his per 36 min stats. Lol. Ill give you this. Magics defense at 36 years old was as bad as it was at 27.[/QUOTE]
What did Magic do his rookie and second year?? NUFF SAID
In terms of GOAT standing, Pip is one of the most controversial players ever in my opinion. Pippen had damn good longevity being a great player and he has solo accolades and team accolades in spades. His numbers in the all around sense is in an elite group with other SF's like Bird, Barry, Hondo, and Lebron. But look at the scoring impact of Bird, Barry, Hondo, and Lebron AND their great all around ability. This simply puts them on another level than Pip in the peak value sense. Pip catches ground on them in the GOAT sense because of the factors I mentioned earlier. But even at that, Bird is a top5-6 GOAT of all time. Barry and Hondo are in that 15-20 range. Bron most likely will be a top 10 GOAT. Pip at best is a minimum 10 spots lower than these guys. The sole reason for this is because the others were dominant scorers who can carry a team.
If Pip showed anything close to these guys in that sense, was even, or even exceeded them in that aspect, Pippen would be a top 10 GOAT of all time flat out. Because u are throwing accolades like six titles, two gold medals, 10 all defensive teams, seven all nba teams, and seven all star teams on top of it. With a resume like that, why would Pippen be rated in that top 30 range GOAT? It's because he wasn't seen as a guy you build a franchise around as a alpha dog scorer.
And he plays the SF position, which might be the most prolific scoring position in bball history. If Pippen was a PG, I feel it wouldn't be seen as big of a deal. But when u have PG's like Magic, Big O, Isiah, Frazier, etc. Pippen would fall behind them as well. Because even those guys can turn into dominant scorers at the drop of a hat.
[QUOTE=bwink23]What did Magic do his rookie and second year?? NUFF SAID[/QUOTE]
How bout this. Pippen is undefeated vs magic in the finals. :bowdown: and he shut him down head to head
[QUOTE=97 bulls]How bout this. Pippen is undefeated vs magic in the finals. :bowdown: and he shut him down head to head[/QUOTE]
DUMB......:facepalm
STAN VAN Gundy noted that some of the greatest teams in recent NBA history weren’t exactly loaded with superstars. He first listed the Detroit Pistons of a few years ago – a team that went to six straight Eastern Conference finals and won one championship.
“Was there even one Hall of Famer on that team?” Van Gundy asked rhetorically. “Debatable.”
Then he went to Michael Jordan’s dynastic Bulls and their six championships. Van Gundy speculated that perhaps Jordan was the only superstar on that team.
“I have always wondered, as good as Scottie Pippen was, would he have been considered a star if he hadn’t played with Jordan and had to carry a team on his own,” Van Gundy explained. “We’ll never know, but my point is that sometimes we make the determination after the fact. In other words, after Chicago won championships, we branded Pippen a star.”
From June, 2011
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol you gonna count pippens rookie and second year. Ok pippens won more more championships and has a higher alltime win percentage.
And magic didnt avg 18 ppg in 96. Oh, I see your counting his per 36 min stats. Lol. Ill give you this. Magics defense at 36 years old was as bad as it was at 27.[/QUOTE]
Championships are a team accomplishment...and Jordan was the alpha dog and undisputed best player in the league....LOL at trying to compare what Magic was doing to Pippen, laughable.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]How bout this. Pippen is undefeated vs magic in the finals. :bowdown: and he shut him down head to head[/QUOTE]
No way in hell Pip shut down Magic:
Game Pts Rebs Ast
1 19 10 11
2* 14 7 10
3* 22 6 10
4* 22 6 11
5* 16 11 20
He made Magic work harder than most. But I wouldn't call this shutting Magic down. Hell Dumars made MJ work for his, but Joe D. NEVER shut MJ down consistently. U can never really shut a great player DOWN consistently. But u can make them work and have them not destroy u as bad as everybody else. A good player u can shut down, but not a great one consistently.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]How bout this. Pippen is undefeated vs magic in the finals. :bowdown: and he shut him down head to head[/QUOTE]
You do know that Jordan guarded Magic for the bulk of that series right?? If you don't, i suggest you go and re-watch the WHOLE SERIES....
[QUOTE=bizil]In terms of GOAT standing, Pip is one of the most controversial players ever in my opinion. Pippen had damn good longevity being a great player and he has solo accolades and team accolades in spades. His numbers in the all around sense is in an elite group with other SF's like Bird, Barry, Hondo, and Lebron. But look at the scoring impact of Bird, Barry, Hondo, and Lebron AND their great all around ability. This simply puts them on another level than Pip in the peak value sense. Pip catches ground on them in the GOAT sense because of the factors I mentioned earlier. But even at that, Bird is a top5-6 GOAT of all time. Barry and Hondo are in that 15-20 range. Bron most likely will be a top 10 GOAT. Pip at best is a minimum 10 spots lower than these guys. The sole reason for this is because the others were dominant scorers who can carry a team.
If Pip showed anything close to these guys in that sense, was even, or even exceeded them in that aspect, Pippen would be a top 10 GOAT of all time flat out. Because u are throwing accolades like six titles, two gold medals, 10 all defensive teams, seven all nba teams, and seven all star teams on top of it. With a resume like that, why would Pippen be rated in that top 30 range GOAT? It's because he wasn't seen as a guy you build a franchise around as a alpha dog scorer.
And he plays the SF position, which might be the most prolific scoring position in bball history. If Pippen was a PG, I feel it wouldn't be seen as big of a deal. But when u have PG's like Magic, Big O, Isiah, Frazier, etc. Pippen would fall behind them as well. Because even those guys can turn into dominant scorers at the drop of a hat.[/QUOTE]
The only people that rank pippen in the 30s is people with an agenda. I routinely frequent basketball reference and pippen holds strong in the 18 to 22 range. He's at 18 right now. And I like that ranking cuz allllllllll basketball fans frequent that site. So you get a general consensus of where most fan see players
Pippen was arguably the 2nd best player on the dream team behind Chuck. He also dominated an All-Star game with all the greats..and that was in the days when they tried in the game. When he played against the greats he always held his own or was better than them. He isn't a demanding player and as such a 2nd fiddle role is suited for him. However, if Jordan was the engine of the bulls, Pippen was the driver that got that car to the right places.
[QUOTE=bizil]No way in hell Pip shut down Magic:
Game Pts Rebs Ast
1 19 10 11
2* 14 7 10
3* 22 6 10
4* 22 6 11
5* 16 11 20
He made Magic work harder than most. But I wouldn't call this shutting Magic down. Hell Dumars made MJ work for his, but Joe D. NEVER shut MJ down consistently. U can never really shut a great player DOWN consistently. But u can make them work and have them not destroy u as bad as everybody else. A good player u can shut down, but not a great one consistently.[/QUOTE]
Plus, Magic was damn near his seasonal averages. He did all he could do against that Bulls defense with 2 of the best wing defenders and an injured James Worthy.
[QUOTE=bwink23]DUMB......:facepalm
STAN VAN Gundy noted that some of the greatest teams in recent NBA history weren
[QUOTE=sundizz]Pippen was arguably the 2nd best player on the dream team behind Chuck. He also dominated an All-Star game with all the greats..and that was in the days when they tried in the game. When he played against the greats he always held his own or was better than them. He isn't a demanding player and as such a 2nd fiddle role is suited for him. However, if Jordan was the engine of the bulls, Pippen was the driver that got that car to the right places.[/QUOTE]
Than you
[QUOTE=bwink23]You do know that Jordan guarded Magic for the bulk of that series right?? If you don't, i suggest you go and re-watch the WHOLE SERIES....[/QUOTE]
Sure, but pippen drew that assignmnent often too.
I never said Pip wasn't a great player. Or that he didn't hold his own with the other greats. Pip made those greats work damn hard and Pip was a very good scorer. But just because I feel he wasn't a true blue number one option doesn't mean Im hating. And sometimes u HAVE to demand the ball, be an asshole, and takeover a game. Or u have to believe in yourself of have the ability to be a great scorer in the first place. Lebron for all the heat he catches still scores well enough to be the highest scoring SF of all time in terms of career average. And he had the all around package that trumps even Pippen's. And Bron plays with another alpha dog type in Wade. If I'm picking between MJ-Pip or Bron-Wade, I would take Bron-Wade peak wise. Now GOAT wise, they have a ways to go before touching MJ-Pip.
[QUOTE=bwink23]Plus, Magic was damn near his seasonal averages. He did all he could do against that Bulls defense with 2 of the best wing defenders and an injured James Worthy.[/QUOTE]
Magic shot a terrible percentage and turned the ball over alot. That's how you shut down a great offensive player
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Magic shot a terrible percentage and turned the ball over alot. That's how you shut down a great offensive player[/QUOTE]
18.6ppg on 43.1%FG, 12.4 assists, 8.0 rebs....with Jordan and Pippen guarding you, an injured James Worthy....this wasn't the Showtime Lakers anymore. He also hit on 39 of 41 of his FT's which is amazing.
I think it's amazing Magic even got them into Finals....:no:
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Magic shot a terrible percentage and turned the ball over alot. That's how you shut down a great offensive player[/QUOTE]
Magic Johnson in the Western Finals against Portland that same year:
20.8ppg on 43.8%FG, 12.8 assists, 7.8 rebs....and of course hitting his FT's..
He didn't shoot the ball well here either, but his incredible all-around game made everyone on the floor dangerous.
Magic is in a class by himself.
[QUOTE=bizil]I never said Pip wasn't a great player. Or that he didn't hold his own with the other greats. Pip made those greats work damn hard and Pip was a very good scorer. But just because I feel he wasn't a true blue number one option doesn't mean Im hating. And sometimes u HAVE to demand the ball, be an asshole, and takeover a game. Or u have to believe in yourself of have the ability to be a great scorer in the first place. Lebron for all the heat he catches still scores well enough to be the highest scoring SF of all time in terms of career average. And he had the all around package that trumps even Pippen's. And Bron plays with another alpha dog type in Wade. If I'm picking between MJ-Pip or Bron-Wade, I would take Bron-Wade peak wise. Now GOAT wise, they have a ways to go before touching MJ-Pip.[/QUOTE]
I think our disagreement is simply what the difference between first option and best player is. I feel that pippen could've led a team to a championship as the best player. Even if he wasn't the first option. You feel the only way a player lead a team is through scoring.
I do feel you greatly contradict yourself when you say your most interested in winning and that youd pick mchale over pippen. Cuz mchale failed as a first option player. Miserably.
[QUOTE=bwink23]18.6ppg on 43.1%FG, 12.4 assists, 8.0 rebs....with Jordan and Pippen guarding you, an injured James Worthy....this wasn't the Showtime Lakers anymore. He also hit on 39 of 41 of his FT's which is amazing.
I think it's amazing Magic even got them into Finals....:no:[/QUOTE]
Don't forget that he did all of this without Kareem and a new coach, as well.
[QUOTE=bwink23]18.6ppg on 43.1%FG, 12.4 assists, 8.0 rebs....with Jordan and Pippen guarding you, an injured James Worthy....this wasn't the Showtime Lakers anymore. He also hit on 39 of 41 of his FT's which is amazing.
I think it's amazing Magic even got them into Finals....:no:[/QUOTE]
What boosted magic fg percentage was game one when he was 4 of 5 for 80%. The other four games he shot 31%, 47%, 46%, 33%. Boy the lakers sure could've used magic takeover ability then.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]What boosted magic fg percentage was game one when he was 4 of 5 for 80%. The other four games he shot 31%, 47%, 46%, 33%. Boy the lakers sure could've used magic takeover ability then.[/QUOTE]
How many assists did he have each game? Those lead to points too, you know.
LOL. Magic was getting what he wanted on Pippen. He as routinely getting by him and into the paint. It was the Bulls collapsing help D that was giving problems.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]What boosted magic fg percentage was game one when he was 4 of 5 for 80%. The other four games he shot 31%, 47%, 46%, 33%. Boy the lakers sure could've used magic takeover ability then.[/QUOTE]
And Magic had these %'s in 4 games against Portland the series prior:
25%, 37.5%, 42.8%, and 42.1%....i suppose you want to give Pippen credit for that???
Magic's combo scoring/passing is the best ever. Pippen can't hold Magic's ball sack....:no:
[QUOTE=97 bulls]What boosted magic fg percentage was game one when he was 4 of 5 for 80%. The other four games he shot 31%, 47%, 46%, 33%. Boy the lakers sure could've used magic takeover ability then.[/QUOTE]
You don't seem to understand that team's focused on Magic Johnson heavily...as Magic goes, the Lakers go....Magic was under heavy pressure. I can't imagine anyone other than him leading that Laker team to the Finals.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQZ6UlCoCvM[/url]
[QUOTE=bwink23]And Magic had these %'s in 4 games against Portland the series prior:
25%, 37.5%, 42.8%, and 42.1%....i suppose you want to give Pippen credit for that???
Magic's combo scoring/passing is the best ever. Pippen can't hold Magic's ball sack....:no:[/QUOTE]
He also shot 53 and 50. What does what he did vs portland matter? They beat portland. And he shot a better percentage.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]He also shot 53 and 50. What does what he did vs portland matter? They beat portland. And he shot a better percentage.[/QUOTE]
43.1% to 43.8% is NEGLIGIBLE....his all-around game was there for both series....
Portland = 43 of 52 FT's....82.6%FT
Chicago = 39 for 41 FT's...95.1% FT
Stop acting like Magic was shut down by Pippen and he didn't show up.......:facepalm
[QUOTE=bwink23]43.1% to 43.8% is NEGLIGIBLE....his all-around game was there for both series....
Portland = 43 of 52 FT's....82.6%FT
Chicago = 39 for 41 FT's...95.1% FT
Stop acting like Magic was shut down by Pippen and he didn't show up.......:facepalm[/QUOTE]
They lost wink. In large part due to pippens defense on magic when jordan was in foul trouble or resting. Magics play was a large reason why. Mainly his lack of defense on paxson.
So now they're comparing Pip to Magic?
WOW