The Mystery of Jerry West's Gorilla Wingspan

Satch Sanders and Sam Jones watch Havlicek pick some dudes pockets while watching highlights of an old playoff game and the guy watching with them and listening to them talk says "Havlicek must have had quick hands" - Satch says "well he was also equipped with that deceptively large wingspan he gave a lot of people trouble on defense"... later they mention the same thing for the Lakers workhorse forward Rudy Larusso would inversely give them problems with his defense.

[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1972/1113_large.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-jJejnHP_bD4/TsalRvlFfaI/AAAAAAAAAQ4/71xQPBdVrGo/111118_74567922plus.jpg[/IMG]

Believe it or not based on the book the Rivalry that I'm reading thousands of players were scouted every year all over the country back then by a network of each teams regional contacts and scouts to make sure the very best 25 players in the game were the ones being drafted every year (because teams that tanked knew exactly which pick they'd have and wanted to have the upper hand, and they'd often make trade deals if such and such team drafted such and such player first) - There was no organized draft camp to take measurements like what has been done this past decade, but I think it's no coincidence that a lot of the "top 25" players had what we know today as the successful physical ingredients of good players. Bob Cousy had excellent peripheral vision and large hands which we now know is good for point guards - allegedly he also had a good enough vertical that at 6'1 he could still get up and dunk though I haven't seen this on film. Jerry West at 6'3 could dunk I've seen that on film and the NBA.com bio says he could get 16" above rim when he entered the league.

There's also footage of the Lakers early 60's 6'2 white-dude point guard Jimmy King palming the ball around with ease with the coach saying he also had very large hands, and he shows hang time on a lot of his plays, and does an in game dunk that looked effortless. I bet a lot of those guys, white or black, would be the typical expected NBA specimens that all have the various physical traits that had incidentally given them the extra edge to be the best among the best. When your only drafting 25 guys a year that are the best of the best NCAA athletes it's probably not going to be coincidence that they had physical traits (even if they went unmeasured) helping them be that much better than their competition. Wish there were more measurements of a lot of these guys but it's pretty cool that I actually found numbers of West's wingspan, I always wondered what it was because he rebounds and did chase-down blocks so well for such a diminutive shooting guard

Sorry for the bump, but I may have found some other late 50s/early 60s player's wingspans. What I did was use "pixel stick" to calculate the length of the outstretched arm, ball, and chest. Then I multiplied arm x 2, added chest length, and divided that sum by the ball length. Then I multiplied this number by 9 (since the ball is 9 inches long.) It sounds really complicated but it was actually rather simple.

None of this exact science, and obviously many of the measurements may be wrong. I give a interval of (-1, +1.5) to either add or subtract from the number I find for the exact length but I did measure Russell's to check validity.

Cliff Hagan:
Height: 6'4
Wingspan: 6'4.2

Bill Russell:
Height: 6'10
Wingspan: 7'3.6

John Havlicek:
Height: 6'5
Wingspan: 6'7.5

Tom Heinsohn
Height: 6'7
Wingspan: 6'9.1

Bob Cousy:
Height: 6'1
Wingspan: 6'3.5

^ Cousy's shocked me the most, since players from the time talk about how he had such long arms/hands. Maybe I'm off on the measurements.

Pictures used:
[url]http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/celtics/photos/heinsohn-hook-shot300400.jpg[/url]
[url]http://brendanmarshall929.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/nba1957-celtics-russellmeek.jpg[/url]
[url]http://thumbs2.picclick.com/d/w500/pict/380674288073_/Bob-Cousy-2-8x10-Unsigned-Photo-Boston.jpg[/url]

^^^

No problem . The posts of Cavalierftw, Jlauber,Psileas ,etc... about the 60's era my absolute favorite whenever I get the time to log in.

Keep it up :cheers:

[QUOTE=TheTenth]Sorry for the bump, but I may have found some other late 50s/early 60s player's wingspans. What I did was use "pixel stick" to calculate the length of the outstretched arm, ball, and chest. Then I multiplied arm x 2, added chest length, and divided that sum by the ball length. Then I multiplied this number by 9 (since the ball is 9 inches long.) It sounds really complicated but it was actually rather simple.

None of this exact science, and obviously many of the measurements may be wrong. I give a interval of (-1, +1.5) to either add or subtract from the number I find for the exact length but I did measure Russell's to check validity.

Cliff Hagan:
Height: 6'4
Wingspan: 6'4.2

Bill Russell:
Height: 6'10
Wingspan: 7'3.6

John Havlicek:
Height: 6'5
Wingspan: 6'7.5

Tom Heinsohn
Height: 6'7
Wingspan: 6'9.1

Bob Cousy:
Height: 6'1
Wingspan: 6'3.5

^ Cousy's shocked me the most, since players from the time talk about how he had such long arms/hands. Maybe I'm off on the measurements.

Pictures used:
[url]http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/celtics/photos/heinsohn-hook-shot300400.jpg[/url]
[url]http://brendanmarshall929.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/nba1957-celtics-russellmeek.jpg[/url]
[url]http://thumbs2.picclick.com/d/w500/pict/380674288073_/Bob-Cousy-2-8x10-Unsigned-Photo-Boston.jpg[/url][/QUOTE]
I don't want to dismiss your effort, but the numbers you've extrapolated can not be accurate for numerous reasons. Starting with the fact that a ball is not 9 inches around. And the human skeleton is flexible and standing in any posture other than spread eagle won't be able to net you a measurable wingspan. Even if you had snapshots of all the guys with their arms stretched out perfectly, I've learned even that isn't accurate to estimate a wingspan due to the nature of different focal lengths on camera lenses. The only thing you can do is go by something that was measured in person. If a players height, weight, or wingspan wasn't measured than truthfully these things can only be treated as unkown variables.

You should try your method with at least 5 different photographs of a single player who has been precisely measured before if you think I'm wrong. See how many different numbers you end up with. If you end up with a consistent result, then you may be on to something, otherwise I've done this before and I've only gotten inconsistent unreliable results.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]I don't want to dismiss your effort, but the numbers you've extrapolated can not be accurate for numerous reasons. Starting with the fact [B]that a ball is not 9 inches around[/B]. And the human skeleton is flexible and standing in any posture other than spread eagle won't be able to net you a wingspan estimate anyways. Even if you had snapshots of all the guys with their arms stretched out, I've learned even that isn't accurate to estimate a wingspan due to the different focal lengths of camera lenses. The only thing you can do is go by something that was measured in person.[/QUOTE]
Oh no, that is what I am looking for. I don't think my measurements are valid either, and in fact I was just looking for a reference point that might make sense. I think I pm'd you on this once, and never having a response I decided to try it out on my own and see what I came up with. I'd figure that a rough estimate would still be useful to people on this site though.

But the 9 inch mark, I believe I got from you on your "Kevin McHale Wingspan" photo. Or do you not believe that you had an accurate measurement for him? ...I mean it's definitely not the 8'0 wingspan that people have claimed.

Either way, I'm really curious about this because I want to know if other star players in this time had the ridiculous wingspan over height ratio that today's players do. If anyone has some info on guys like Cousy, Pettit, Sharman, Ramsey, Lovellette, Sanders, Jones, etc. it would be much appreciated.

Btw, I have found one of Vern Mikkelsen in high school with the "spread eagle with two balls palmed" but I don't know how interested in 50s players you are.

[QUOTE=CavsFTW]You should try your method with at least 5 different photographs of a single player who has been precisely measured before if you think I'm wrong. See how many different numbers you end up with. If you end up with a consistent result, then you may be on to something, otherwise I've done this before and I've only gotten inconsistent unreliable results.[/QUOTE]
I agree, the problem is finding these photos. I have found maybe 3 for Cousy, 2 for Havlicek, but everyone else it seems like there is only 1.

[QUOTE=TheTenth]Oh no, that is what I am looking for. I don't think my measurements are valid either, and in fact I was just looking for a reference point that might make sense. I think I pm'd you on this once, and never having a response I decided to try it out on my own and see what I came up with. I'd figure that a rough estimate would still be useful to people on this site though.

But the 9 inch mark, I believe I got from you on your "Kevin McHale Wingspan" photo. Or do you not believe that you had an accurate measurement for him? ...I mean it's definitely not the 8'0 wingspan that people have claimed.

Either way, I'm really curious about this because I want to know if other star players in this time had the ridiculous wingspan over height ratio that today's players do. If anyone has some info on guys like Cousy, Pettit, Sharman, Ramsey, Lovellette, Sanders, Jones, etc. it would be much appreciated.

Btw, I have found one of Vern Mikkelsen in high school with the "spread eagle with two balls palmed" but I don't know how interested in 50s players you are.


I agree, the problem is finding these photos. I have found maybe 3 for Cousy, 2 for Havlicek, but everyone else it seems like there is only 1.[/QUOTE]

Do it with Blake Griffin - I won't tell you his wingspan - and whatever you do don't look it up! Approach it being clueless, and see what you come up with. If you get 5 relatively consistent numbers and they match up with what his actual wingspan measured then your on to something - if not than you'll know it won't work. It's better than trusting the method w/o any evidence that supports that it works. If I was to guess, I would guess that it doesn't work for my aforementioned reasons - and I've also tried this before with about 3 pics and got nothing consistent. But who knows your methods could be different and its worth testing if you've got the time.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Do it with Blake Griffin - I won't tell you his wingspan - and whatever you do don't look it up! Approach it being clueless, and see what you come up with. If you get 5 relatively consistent numbers and they match up with what his actual wingspan measured then your on to something - if not than you'll know it won't work. It's better than trusting the method w/o any evidence that supports that it works. If I was to guess, I would guess that it doesn't work for my aforementioned reasons - and I've also tried this before with about 3 pics and got nothing consistent. But who knows your methods could be different and its worth testing if you've got the time.[/QUOTE]
I already knew Blake Griffins. I'll pick someone else and come back though. You are probably correct in that it is not very valid or reliable. Most of all I was hoping if I dedicated a little time into deducing it with my own means, it might get someone's attention with access to some newspaper archives or information to things not posted yet and they would respond with "Bob Cousy actually had x wingspan" or something. But I'll try and dedicate some time into the reliability of my test.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW] Bob Cousy had excellent peripheral vision and large hands which we now know is good for point guards - allegedly he also had a good enough vertical that at 6'1 he could still get up and dunk though I haven't seen this on film.
[/QUOTE]
Where did you get this information that Bob Cousy could dunk? Do you have a link? Because I read somewhere that Cousy/Sharman had difficulty touching rim and that was how they deciphered that the rim was too low in the 1957 finals game that led to Kerner punching Auerbach. This of course makes little sense because Wilt had Sharman on his list of best atheletes, but then again Wilt was known to be a "contrarian." I would really appreciate the source on this!

Btw, I remember when searching for Blake Griffin's wingspan a while back I came across these photos, maybe they will give someone a laugh.

[IMG]http://hoopspeak.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/AjZ4Vs_CMAA4_mc.jpeg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.thefunkylocker.com/images/rajon-rondo-wingspan.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=TheTenth]I already knew Blake Griffins. I'll pick someone else and come back though. You are probably correct in that it is not very valid or reliable. Most of all I was hoping if I dedicated a little time into deducing it with my own means, it might get someone's attention with access to some newspaper archives or information to things not posted yet and they would respond with "Bob Cousy actually had x wingspan" or something. But I'll try and dedicate some time into the reliability of my test.


Where did you get this information that Bob Cousy could dunk? Do you have a link? Because I read somewhere that Cousy/Sharman had difficulty touching rim and that was how they deciphered that the rim was too low in the 1957 finals game that led to Kerner punching Auerbach. This of course makes little sense because Wilt had Sharman on his list of best atheletes, but then again Wilt was known to be a "contrarian." I would really appreciate the source on this!

Btw, I remember when searching for Blake Griffin's wingspan a while back I came across these photos, maybe they will give someone a laugh.

[IMG]http://hoopspeak.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/AjZ4Vs_CMAA4_mc.jpeg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.thefunkylocker.com/images/rajon-rondo-wingspan.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I look all the time on Google News Archives - that's how I found Jerry West's, Elvin Hayes, Kareem's etc etc. Some players have had numbers printed, but I'm willing to be 90% weren't even measured and of the ones that were, 90 percent of those guys probably never had it printed in an article about themselves

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]I look all the time on Google News Archives - that's how I found Jerry West's, Elvin Hayes, Kareem's etc etc. Some players have had numbers printed, but I'm willing to be 90% weren't even measured and of the ones that were, 90 percent of those guys probably never had it printed in an article about themselves[/QUOTE]
Ok I will see what I can do.
What about Bob Cousy being able to dunk? Where did you get that information? Sorry, it's my last question, I promise. :lol

[QUOTE=TheTenth]

[IMG]http://hoopspeak.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/AjZ4Vs_CMAA4_mc.jpeg[/IMG]

[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=TheTenth]Ok I will see what I can do.
What about Bob Cousy being able to dunk? Where did you get that information? Sorry, it's my last question, I promise. :lol[/QUOTE]
Only heard it from an old fan of the game - don't remember where he heard it so just treat it as hear say as I/he could be mistaken.

Stan Okoye was measured 6'3" barefoot with a 7'2" wingspan. (undrafted)

[url]http://www.cantonrep.com/printable.php?ID=415663[/url]

[B]"I think wingspan is every bit as important, maybe way more important than your height," said Minnesota Vice President of Basketball Operations [SIZE="4"][COLOR="DarkGreen"]Kevin McHale, who had an 8-foot wingspan in his day[/COLOR][/SIZE]. "You've seen those guys that are 6-11, and they've got those pterodactyl arms. Those guys, they don't do too well." [/B]

[img]http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1981/0511_large.jpg[/img]

D-Wade is better.

[QUOTE=Mass Debator]Stan Okoye was measured 6'3" barefoot with a 7'2" wingspan. (undrafted)[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://image.cdnllnwnl.xosnetwork.com/pics32/400/FG/FGBSXCEGLSSGRGY.20130101110953.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][url]http://www.cantonrep.com/printable.php?ID=415663[/url]

[B]"I think wingspan is every bit as important, maybe way more important than your height," said Minnesota Vice President of Basketball Operations [SIZE="4"][COLOR="DarkGreen"]Kevin McHale, who had an 8-foot wingspan in his day[/COLOR][/SIZE]. "You've seen those guys that are 6-11, and they've got those pterodactyl arms. Those guys, they don't do too well." [/B]

[img]http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1981/0511_large.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]

Excellent post.

Take a look at the 7-2 Sampson. VERY short arms. I suspect that there were at least a few players in the league at the time that had a higher standing reach than Sampson.

ur the worst poster on this site

literally no one cares how long people arms are who played in other era's, i would rather see more kobe vs lebron threads

[QUOTE=Round Mound][url]http://www.cantonrep.com/printable.php?ID=415663[/url]

[B]"I think wingspan is every bit as important, maybe way more important than your height," said Minnesota Vice President of Basketball Operations [SIZE="4"][COLOR="DarkGreen"]Kevin McHale, who had an 8-foot wingspan in his day[/COLOR][/SIZE]. "You've seen those guys that are 6-11, and they've got those pterodactyl arms. Those guys, they don't do too well." [/B]

[img]http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1981/0511_large.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
His wingspan was 7-3 or 7-4 it's been a while since I researched so now I can't quite remember which of the two it was but it certainly is not even close to 8 feet, that is a myth. Patrick Ewing and Wilt Chamberlain were also some of the players labeled with the mythic "8 foot wingspan" but it's all a myth.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Excellent post.

Take a look at the 7-2 Sampson. VERY short arms. I suspect that there were at least a few players in the league at the time that had a higher standing reach than Sampson.[/QUOTE]
Sampson does not have very short arms. Sampson had a 7-4 wingspan. He stood approximately 7-1 inch tall (not anywhere close to his 7-4 list info). It isn't a spectacular wingspan for that height but it isn't bad either.

[QUOTE=The Immortal][url]http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Kyle-Hines-513/[/url]

[IMG]http://www.yazihaneden.com/wp-content/uploads/kyle-hines.jpg[/IMG]

Nearly 6'4 with a 7ft 1 wingspan and a 8' 6.5" reach[/QUOTE]

I remember this guy from his college days at UNC Greensboro! He was vastly underrated.

[B]Sampson was More like 7

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Sampson was More like 7

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Sorry but he just isn't - Mark Eaton is 7-3.75 w/o shoes and there is an interview with him and Chick Hearn and Chick asks him about what it's like facing the other 7-4 guy in the league (Sampson) and he proceeds to tell Chick that he's actually only 7-3 and 3/4 not quite 7-4 and secondly that Sampson is nowhere near 7-4. Chick asks him about how tall he thinks Sampson is and he replies "about 7-1". No matter how tall Sampson looks to you Eaton - a guy who is genuinely nearly 7-4 saw him up close and in person and was being genuinely honest in the interview. Look at the Red on Roundball videos with Sampson in them standing next to the Celtics center Robert Parish. Parish was no more than 7-0 w/o shoes and they look almost identical in height - Sampson looking only about an inch taller - which goes along with what Eaton said. Also Sampson is not taller than Jabbar - that photograph is misleading - look at a dozen photographs with him and Jabbar and you'll see more times than not he appears shorter than Jabbar.[/QUOTE]

[B]From the 1986 NBA Finals DVD I Have Sampson Does Close to Jabbar. He is Probably Not 7

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]From the 1986 NBA Finals DVD I Have Sampson Does Look Taller Than Jabbar. He is Probably Not 7

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Sit down height is totally different than standing height.... Jerry West sits as tall as Wilt Chamberlain in photographs, but he's nowhere near as tall - because Chamberlain was so long in the limbs. Torso length determines sitdown height, not overall height. Different people have different length torsos. And again, he isn't taller than Kareem:

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A2P2E66CUAAuz31.jpg[/IMG]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzZjAohZlPM[/url]

Sampson and Parish... nowhere near 4 inches in height difference[/QUOTE]

[B]I See...Well Still Things He Did at 7

Those 8 ft wingspan claims for McHale. :roll:

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]I See...Well Still Things He Did at 7

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW] Jerry West at 6'3 could dunk [/QUOTE]

I believe he recently stated that he's actually 6'4 1/2"

In any case: This is him dunking at 5:08, right? Is that the only in-game NBA dunk of his that exists on film?

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr2Phq6KlYA[/url]

A 6'9 wingspan is average for a 6'4 black male

West is the 3rd best SG of all time in ANY era.

[QUOTE=stalkerforlife]West is the 3rd best SG of all time in ANY era.[/QUOTE]
:applause:

[QUOTE=Cocaine80s]A 6'9 wingspan is average for a 6'4 black male[/QUOTE]
pretty unusual to have it as a blindingly quick white guy tho

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]pretty unusual to have it as a blindingly quick white guy tho[/QUOTE]
Yea I think most white and asians have wingspan the same or slightly longer than their height. Black people usually have a few more inches for some reason

[QUOTE=Cocaine80s]Yea I think most white and asians have wingspan the same or slightly longer than their height. Black people usually have a few more inches for some reason[/QUOTE]
Geographic ancestry. In nature "species" that live closer to hot climates/equilateral regions have longer limbs for thermoregulation, where as the colder the climate there is generally shorter limbs and extremities. This phenomena is just as true in humans as it is in say, wolves, deer, or any other wide ranging species this is observable in. Inuit peoples for example have relatively short stocky arms and legs, just like arctic wolves. It's just a helpful adaptation to the climate, you tend not to die young from frost bite wounds when your limbs are short and thick. Inversely, if you have a very long lean frame you tend not to die of heat exhaustion during the dry season in the open savanna. Over 10s of thousands of years a gradual shift in physical traits among populations happens. The differences in humans are subtle, an untrained eye wouldn't see it or care, but it's there. Relatively longer limbs in the 20th and 21st century have developed an unanticipated secondary benefit... they help in sports where long reach is beneficial, such as basketball.

Inb4 someone claims this is racist and unscientific.

[QUOTE=Cocaine80s]Yea I think most white and asians have wingspan the same or slightly longer than their height. Black people usually [B]have a few more inches[/B] for some reason[/QUOTE]

they always have a few more inches...

[QUOTE=dubeta]they always have a few more inches...[/QUOTE]
No, it's a population trend. There can be people from any geographic region with long arms or short arms. But the frequency changes of how often people tend to have longer or shorter limbs depending on how their ancestors adapted to their geography. It isn't even cut and dry about "blacks/whites/asians". There are certain areas in Africa or Europe or Asia where people have longer or shorter limbs even compared to other "Black / White / Asians". There are many different types of ancestral groups of people on this planet. Something like several hundred in Africa and at least 40 more over the rest of the world with lots of mixture (there's more genetic diversity in Africa because it's where our species evolved)

[QUOTE=dubeta]they always have a few more inches...[/QUOTE]

How would you know?

****** :lol

I see I just got trolled