Ray Allen is the better all around player. and a Winner.
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Ray Allen is the better all around player. and a Winner.
Reggie Miller was a better leader.
[QUOTE=rodman91]Ray Allen better all around player but [B]I'd pick Reggie[/B] if i was GM... without a doubt. Back in day Reggie,Gary Payton and Allen Iverson were only guys who had mentality to go toe to toe with Jordan.He so good at using screens even though everybody knows what's gonna happen noone could defend it.
Reggie carried Paces so many times against greater teams.He has many legendary games at playoffs.He proved himself over and over again against great players at toughest stages.His intangibles crushes Ray Allen's.
Allen was able to do things Reggie can't but Reggie was one of the deadliest player ever on court.I'm a bulls fan and those games against Reggie's Pacers in late 90's were all epic.[/QUOTE]
very good point, makes me second thought before saying definitely Ray Allen
I'd pick Ray every single time. But I would know i'd hate having to face Reggie everytime knowing how Reggie can play with a vendetta against me.
[QUOTE=DuMa]I'd pick Ray every single time. But I would know i'd hate having to face Reggie everytime knowing how Reggie can play with a vendetta against me.[/QUOTE]
If I played against him, I would of been ejected and suspended for beating him up.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Reggie had 21 on 5/18 shooting, 10 points on 4/12, 34 on 13/27, 15 on 5/9, and 41 on 15/25 in that series. It was great for him. 4 games not really of note for a scorer and one really good one. But really...its a series Michael Redd can have and have nobody care. Melo just had games along those lines and had people conclude that hes barely even a star.
The standards for Reggie are so low for a guy with his level of notoriety. He has games [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AQn4TlHEnw"]Ben Gordon can have[/URL] and its legendary shit heard about for 20 years.
Hes had some legit outstanding moments but really...a lot of them are because hes Reggie Miller not because the level of play was just insane.
His series vs Ray Allens Bucks could be had by Penny and never be mentioned again. Im not sure if ive ever seen Reggie better than Arenas vs the cavs in 06 or 07 or whatever. He ended up losing(partly due to missed FTs if I remember correctly) but Reggie lost 19 years in a row so its not like Reggie was closing people out to win the big series.
Reggies series vs the Bucks isnt really worth a mention in the careers of most top flight swingmen. Its hardly what id call an owning.
Not from a HOF player known for nothing but scoring.[/QUOTE]
This. How in the hell Reggie is so lauded is a mystery to me.
[QUOTE=LeBird]This. How in the hell Reggie is so lauded is a mystery to me.[/QUOTE]
Its because his a one of a kind character, he menaced and competed against the best with seemingly no physical advantages. Ray Allen is better.
wow i went to search for Ray Allen Sonics mix and he was dunking and sh!t
[QUOTE=nycelt84]What's funny is that I was a kid watching Miller during the 90's and I completely agree. It sucks to see people of my generation turning out like some of those older people and holding players from our childhood on some lofty perch that they don't deserve to be on. Ray Allen wins this one.[/QUOTE]
I'm the same as this. I was right in my prime watching and caring ages when Reggie was playing, and I'd take Ray and it wouldn't be close.
Better athlete, better ball handler, better finisher around the hoop in his prime, better passer, better at creating, better defender. And the shooting is a wash to me.
Ray didn't really start playing like Reggie until his last stretch in Seattle and then really in Boston when they started running him around screen constantly.
SMH, Reggie Miller is definitely the player you would build around over Ray Allen. You can't build a team around Ray.
And Reggie is on another level of clutch.
[QUOTE=Solefade]SMH, Reggie Miller is definitely the player you would build around over Ray Allen. You can't build a team around Ray.
And Reggie is on another level of clutch.[/QUOTE]
you cant build around Reggie either, unless you are ok with never winning anything.
Ray Allen beat Reggie's 3-point record BEFORE he surpassed Reggie for most 3-point attempts.
Jesus Shuttlesworth is the GOAT from the tre.
After in the steph curry ray allen debate I picked ray with a chance for steph to pass him because his game definitely has room to grow but I seriously don't understand this perpetuated myth on reggie miller like he was some all time player...I really love reggie and the dude could shoot but thats it...he cant playmake he can't rebound hell he doesnt even create his own shot well...ray could do it all in his prime the fact that this question is posed is a joke ray is reggie if reggie could create and score off the dribble so naturally he is the superior player
and ppl point out how clutch reggie is which he is but hes had a LOT of horrible moments that ppl just love to overlook as well
[QUOTE=pauk]Pleeeeeasssee.... for Ray Allens game/gamestyle to exist there had to be Reggie Miller and hence Reggie Miller has to come first, he is the ORIGINAL.. the best one....
Ray has said (and Rip Hamilton) multiple times that he patterned his game after Reggie, that he "stole" all Reggies moves especially of the ball movement, screen tricks, how to get open and so on... Reggie was by extremly far the best of the ball/screen abusing/catch n shoot player in basketball history, Michael Jordan has said that to... you will never see somebody as good as him in that department, he had so many tricks up his sleeve to get open, running around and around like a marathon runner, grabbing his own teammate who set the screen to lever himself around him at the opposite side, hesitating all over the court between the screens/players in and out, left, right, up, down, spin, flop, spin, frustrate you, using your own teammates as screens, exhaust you, spit at you, hit a J over and over, trashtalk and so on... it was freakin scientific, it was ART watching him work without the ball...
There is a reason Kobe said: "[I]Reggie is the hardest player i ever had to guard[/I]".. and that says alot considering he did guard Michael Jordan aswell..
For you who say Ray Allen was a more complete player, watch some of Reggies games when he was in his athletic prime from 1987-1992, you know, the fade Reggie... he was very quick, fast, deceptive, dunking on everybody, creating his own baskets over and over and was a better man to man defender than Ray Allen during that time aswell....
Reggie was also a MUCH better clutch player, Ray Allen is great in that department, but what Reggie did was matched ONLY by Michael Jordan & Larry Bird..........
Last but not least, when talking about shooting... Reggie was a better shooter because [B]Reggie was a much more versatile shooter, he had a better shooting arsenal....... Ray Allen is more of a set shooter/standstill shooter, with that i mean he is not comfortable taking of balance shots, infact Ray Allen is a very bad of balance shooter (notice that next time you see him play during any time of his career).......... [/B]Ray Allen wants to go straight UP and shoulders/body faced towards the rim at all times when he shoots during any situation......... but Reggie? Reggie basically made his shots at that ridicilous percentage from any god damn range taking Kobe Bryant / Michael Jordan type of fadeaway/of balance shots.... Reggie made his shots however you wanted it, runners, floaters, hooks, left handed-right handed, skoops, you name it....
This is for the same exact reason Larry Bird was also a better shooter than Ray Allen.......[/QUOTE]
The bolded is extremely laughable I honestly question if you watched ray play in his prime after that statement...and reggie being able to make difficult shots is all well and good but it still doesnt change the fact that ray allen is a much better basketball player then him
[QUOTE=Boston C's]After in the steph curry ray allen debate I picked ray with a chance for steph to pass him because his game definitely has room to grow but I seriously don't understand this perpetuated myth on reggie miller like he was some all time player...I really love reggie and the dude could shoot but thats it...he cant playmake he can't rebound hell he doesnt even create his own shot well...ray could do it all in his prime the fact that this question is posed is a joke ray is reggie if reggie could create and score off the dribble so naturally he is the superior player
and ppl point out how clutch reggie is which he is but hes had a LOT of horrible moments that ppl just love to overlook as well[/QUOTE]
Hate to do this again but all those advantages statswise that you gave ray allen are all minimal that its hardly worth a mention for most players. Ray Allen outrebounds him by a single rebound, leads him by half an assist and outscores him by a single point on a significantly lower percentage.
Reggie Miller constantly outplaying Ray Allen on head to head matchups throughout their careers regular season and playoffs stats wise and in terms of wins is a better indication of who the better players is in my opinion.
Ray has an advantage in offensive versatility and ballhandling while Millers edge is being a superior leader and more efficient scorer and intangibles. It all boils down to what skills do you value more in picking between the two.
In regards to his inability to create his own shot, Reggie Miller has a very underrated face up game with all the jab steps and stepbacks he does off the catch of the ball. He can certainly put the ball down the floor off the pumpfake going all the way to the rim or shooting a runner/floater. Reggie in his athletic prime dribbled the ball more and attacked the basket more frequently. I think he focused on his off the ball skills much more when he got older and on the arrival of mark jackson.
Reggie did have a lot of horrible moments in the playoffs but so did Ray so I dont know why you felt the need to mention it.
While I dont deny that Ray Allen is one of the best shooters ever its odd that a player of his caliber and superior athleticism and skills never shot over 50% in 17 years while many less heralded shooters have done it multiple times.
I have engaged in this argument a few times and it still bothers me when people overstate ones advantages over the other. To me this matchup is basically a wash and it all depends on a persons preferred style of play.
[QUOTE=Solefade]SMH, Reggie Miller is definitely the player you would build around over Ray Allen. You can't build a team around Ray.
And Reggie is on another level of clutch.[/QUOTE]
Reggie came out the loser in just about every big series he ever had in his career. Ray on the other hand triumphed in most of his.
Where in the hell did this perception that Reggie was some ultimate clutch warrior come from? Yes, he hit a big shots in his career, but he came up short a majority of the time in big series'.
[QUOTE=plowking]Reggie came out the loser in just about every big series he ever had in his career. Ray on the other hand triumphed in most of his.
Where in the hell did this perception that Reggie was some ultimate clutch warrior come from? Yes, he hit a big shots in his career, but he came up short a majority of the time in big series'.[/QUOTE]
Ray won as the 3rd/4th best player on his team. Its highly likely that Miller could have done that given the same situation.
[QUOTE=Reggie43]Ray won as the 3rd/4th best player on his team. Its highly likely that Miller could have done that given the same situation.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't take away the fact that Ray was the better player.
I was simply talking regarding the clutch thing.
[QUOTE=plowking]Doesn't take away the fact that Ray was the better player.
I was simply talking regarding the clutch thing.[/QUOTE]
Then explain how he got outplayed head to head?
Reggie was a better post-season player.
Even though Ray Allen could do more and had greater abilities primarily with the ball, you were better off using Ray the same way Reggie Miller was used which was off the ball.
Reggie was a better off-ball player, so he is the better player to me.
[QUOTE=Reggie43]Then explain how he got outplayed head to head?[/QUOTE]
So this is your metric for determining who the better player is? As it clearly takes into account team tactics, who was guarding who, defensive gameplans, etc.
I guess you think Deron Williams is better than Chris Paul for the same reason then? Blake Griffin better than Tim Duncan? Durant as good as Kobe?
FWIW, Ray Allen was never the #1 guy like Reggie was for his squad. Reggie Miller was the best player on a team that took Mj and the Bulls to a game 7....
we all know how rare that was.
[QUOTE=plowking]So this is your metric for determining who the better player is? As it clearly takes into account team tactics, who was guarding who, defensive gameplans, etc.
I guess you think Deron Williams is better than Chris Paul for the same reason then? Blake Griffin better than Tim Duncan? Durant as good as Kobe?[/QUOTE]
Statswise they were basically the same so we search for another way to compare them. Regardless of who won Miller got the edge on those matchups statswise. Give me a better metric in comparing these players then
Miller as the best player on his team got the most defensive attention while Ray allen wasnt even arguably the hardest player to guard on those bucks teams that also featured the high scoring duo of sam cassell and glen robinson. Miller was also Ray Allens primary defender so it also says a lot about the formers defensive ability
You bring up the head to head of players past their prime like duncan and kobe against griffin and durant? Naturally it wont be fair to the older players dont you think? Miller was put at the same disadvantage but he still came out on top
[QUOTE=Reggie43]Statswise they were basically the same so we search for another way to compare them. Regardless of who won Miller got the edge on those matchups statswise. Give me a better metric in comparing these players then
Miller as the best player on his team got the most defensive attention while Ray allen wasnt even arguably the hardest player to guard on those bucks teams that also featured the high scoring duo of sam cassell and glen robinson. Miller was also Ray Allens primary defender so it also says a lot about the formers defensive ability
You bring up the head to head of players past their prime like duncan and kobe against griffin and durant? Naturally it wont be fair to the older players dont you think? Miller was put at the same disadvantage but he still came out on top[/QUOTE]
Their stats aren't the same. Allen's are better across the board.
Hes a better shooter, scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, ball handler, etc.
Even when he played the off the ball role that Miller did while at the Celtics, he put up those numbers on better efficiency.
[QUOTE=plowking]Their stats aren't the same. Allen's are better across the board.
Hes a better shooter, scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, ball handler, etc.
Even when he played the off the ball role that Miller did while at the Celtics, he put up those numbers on better efficiency.[/QUOTE]
The least you could have done is look up the stats before claiming who was more efficient. Miller shot above 50% 4 times in his career, something Ray failed to do not even one time in his
Who do you think the better shooter/scorer is? the guy who shot 47% to get 18pts or the one with 19pts on 45%?
As I said before, Ray was merely 1 rebound and half an assist better. for someone thats supposed to be a better playmaker you should expect atleast much better results than a half an assist advantage.
I guess you dont remember Ray allen being considered a defensive liability by most before coming to boston? While Miller was being praised by none other than Jordan himself by being one of the peskiest defenders in the league.
[QUOTE=Boston C's]and ppl point out how clutch reggie is which he is but hes had a LOT of horrible moments that ppl just love to overlook as well[/QUOTE]
I find this odd when people arguing for Ray Allen say this, because it's as if Allen hasn't had horrible moments.
[LIST]They act like Ray Allen wasn't the invisible man in 2008 before the Finals. He averaged 9.3 points on 32.7% shooting, 46.0% TS against Cleveland, and went 1-6 for 4 points, 0 rebounds, 1 assist in the deciding Game 7. If Boston needed Allen to produce, they never would have made it to the Finals. If Miller sucked, the Pacers lost. Allen could suck and have a Hall of Fame teammate score 41 to bail him out. If the Celtics lose that series, Allen gets crucified. But since they won and Allen actually decided to show up in the Finals, the ring erases his previous suckage from everyone's memories.[/LIST]
[LIST]I've seen people mention Allen's record 8-11 three-point shooting in Game 2 of the 2010 NBA Finals, yet neglect to mention than Allen immediately followed it by going 0-13, and shot 31.4% from the floor, 13.3% from three for the entire series excluding that one game. That was a horrible [B]series[/B], not one isolated moment. Game 2 was the aberration, and Games 1, 3-7 were the norm.[/LIST]
[LIST]Everyone talked about Game 6 of the 2009 first round playoff matchup between the Boston Celtics and Chicago Bulls, in which Allen scored 51 points on 18-for-32 shooting from the floor, 9 of 18 from downtown in a 128-127 triple-overtime loss, but in the second round Allen proceeded to average 13.1 points on 34.4% shooting from the floor, 19.0% from beyond the arc and 45.2% TS.[/LIST]
No one ever mentions Allen's streakiness and disappearing acts. People have a guy and emphasize low moments of whomever their guy is pitted against while not saying a word about their chosen guy's low moments. People are prone to only telling one side of the story. I'd just like to see people who are prone to do this tell both sides, but I know that's too much to ask for on the internet.
[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]I find this odd when people arguing for Ray Allen say this, because it's as if Allen hasn't had horrible moments.
[LIST]They act like Ray Allen wasn't the invisible man in 2008 before the Finals. He averaged 9.3 points on 32.7% shooting, 46.0% TS against Cleveland, and went 1-6 for 4 points, 0 rebounds, 1 assist in the deciding Game 7. If Boston needed Allen to produce, they never would have made it to the Finals. If Miller sucked, the Pacers lost. Allen could suck and have a Hall of Fame teammate score 41 to bail him out. If the Celtics lose that series, Allen gets crucified. But since they won and Allen actually decided to show up in the Finals, the ring erases his previous suckage from everyone's memories.[/LIST]
[LIST]I've seen people mention Allen's record 8-11 three-point shooting in Game 2 of the 2010 NBA Finals, yet neglect to mention than Allen immediately followed it by going 0-13, and shot 31.4% from the floor, 13.3% from three for the entire series excluding that one game. That was a horrible [B]series[/B], not one isolated moment. Game 2 was the aberration, and Games 1, 3-7 were the norm.[/LIST]
[LIST]Everyone talked about Game 6 of the 2009 first round playoff matchup between the Boston Celtics and Chicago Bulls, in which Allen scored 51 points on 18-for-32 shooting from the floor, 9 of 18 from downtown in a 128-127 triple-overtime loss, but in the second round Allen proceeded to average 13.1 points on 34.4% shooting from the floor, 19.0% from beyond the arc and 45.2% TS.[/LIST]
No one ever mentions Allen's streakiness and disappearing acts. People have a guy and emphasize low moments of whomever their guy is pitted against while not saying a word about their chosen guy's low moments. People are prone to only telling one side of the story. I'd just like to see people who are prone to do this tell both sides, but I know that's too much to ask for on the internet.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying allen hasn't had any low moments...its just that ppl always seem to forget reggie did too...theres this perception that reggie never failed in crunch time
[QUOTE=Electric Slide]Reggie was a better post-season player.
Even though Ray Allen could do more and had greater abilities primarily with the ball, you were better off using Ray the same way Reggie Miller was used which was off the ball.
[B]Reggie was a better off-ball player, so he is the better player to me[/B].[/QUOTE]
stupid reasoning to say that someone is better because of one attribute that is highly questionable...allen was still better at every other facet of the game of basketball
[QUOTE=Reggie43]Hate to do this again but all those advantages statswise that you gave ray allen are all minimal that its hardly worth a mention for most players. Ray Allen outrebounds him by a single rebound, leads him by half an assist and outscores him by a single point on a significantly lower percentage.
Reggie Miller constantly outplaying Ray Allen on head to head matchups throughout their careers regular season and playoffs stats wise and in terms of wins is a better indication of who the better players is in my opinion.
Ray has an advantage in offensive versatility and ballhandling while Millers edge is being a superior leader and more efficient scorer and intangibles. It all boils down to what skills do you value more in picking between the two.
In regards to his inability to create his own shot, Reggie Miller has a very underrated face up game with all the jab steps and stepbacks he does off the catch of the ball. He can certainly put the ball down the floor off the pumpfake going all the way to the rim or shooting a runner/floater. Reggie in his athletic prime dribbled the ball more and attacked the basket more frequently. I think he focused on his off the ball skills much more when he got older and on the arrival of mark jackson.
Reggie did have a lot of horrible moments in the playoffs but so did Ray so I dont know why you felt the need to mention it.
While I dont deny that Ray Allen is one of the best shooters ever its odd that a player of his caliber and superior athleticism and skills never shot over 50% in 17 years while many less heralded shooters have done it multiple times.
I have engaged in this argument a few times and it still bothers me when people overstate ones advantages over the other. To me this matchup is basically a wash and it all depends on a persons preferred style of play.[/QUOTE]
all of the things you mentioned about reggie I won't take away from you...sure when he was younger he may have had an underrated faceup game but honestly for anyone who has seriously watched basketball they know that ray allen could literally do everything better then reggie miller...you don't need stats to tell you that (even though they point it out) you would know that allen was a better ball handler....allen was a better rebounder, allen was a better scorer, etc...those things should be pretty much understood...now if you want to compare head to head matchups thats cool too but most of those matchups were with when ray was not even in his prime but a young rookie going against a prime reggie miller
[QUOTE=Dengness9]FWIW, [B] Ray Allen was never the #1 guy like Reggie was for his squad.[/B] Reggie Miller was the best player on a team that took Mj and the Bulls to a game 7....
we all know how rare that was.[/QUOTE]
you know ray allen was playing basketball before he got to boston right?
I mean I know seattle and milwaukee are small markets but damn
[QUOTE=Boston C's]all of the things you mentioned about reggie I won't take away from you...sure when he was younger he may have had an underrated faceup game but honestly for anyone who has seriously watched basketball they know that ray allen could literally do everything better then reggie miller...you don't need stats to tell you that (even though they point it out) you would know that allen was a better ball handler....allen was a better rebounder, allen was a better scorer, etc...those things should be pretty much understood...now if you want to compare head to head matchups thats cool too but most of those matchups were with when ray was not even in his prime but a young rookie going against a prime reggie miller[/QUOTE]
In terms of scoring the ball I think efficiency matters and Reggie certainly did that better than Ray. It is what seperates the all time greats like Allen Iverson(43%) Kobe Bryant(45%) and Michael Jordan(50%) from each other.
Those head to head matchups mostly span from the ages of 21-27 for ray and 31-37 for miller which seems fair to me because while you contend that Miller played Allen as a rookie he also played Reggie way past his prime which evens it out. Some would even give the advantage to Allen because he was in his athletic prime as opposed to Miller who had a ton of milage by then
[QUOTE=Boston C's]you know ray allen was playing basketball before he got to boston right?
I mean I know seattle and milwaukee are small markets but damn[/QUOTE]
especially since prime ray could score in the mid 20s
[QUOTE=Reggie43]In terms of scoring the ball I think efficiency matters and Reggie certainly did that better than Ray. It is what seperates the all time greats like Allen Iverson(43%) Kobe Bryant(45%) and Michael Jordan(50%) from each other.
Those head to head matchups mostly span from the ages of 21-27 for ray and 31-37 for miller which seems fair to me because while you contend that Miller played Allen as a rookie he also played Reggie way past his prime which evens it out. Some would even give the advantage to Allen because he was in his athletic prime as opposed to Miller who had a ton of milage by then[/QUOTE]
I guess thats fair...but when the matchups start hitting in the yr 2000 and upward Allen seems to have an advantage over reggie...and the overall numbers when you look at it are pretty even with reggie scoring a bit more and allen assisting and rebounding a bit more
[QUOTE=Boston C's]stupid reasoning to say that someone is better because of one attribute that is highly questionable...allen was still better at every other facet of the game of basketball[/QUOTE]
Seeing that you were better off not having Ray do any of those things, I don't see why those skills are even relevant.
Reggie was a better off-ball player pretty easily and he was easily a better playoff performer. Ray was a massive underachiever as a playoff performer in Boston which was his best years of winning a title.
Ray easily. Reggie gets overrated.
Now that I think about it, I don't know one area of the game in which Reggie Miller is superior to Ray Allen.
I'd pick reggie. I've seen them both play from the mid 90's through 2000 and so on. Imo reggie was a bit smarter than ray, coming off screens. He could mislead the defense like a boss. Reggie Miller is the most clutch players I have ever seen, especially in the playoffs. I admit ray allen was more athletic in his bucks and sonics days, but the level of play in the playoffs is the difference to me. Reggie got in the head of opponents, he had that killer instinct like MJ. Ray never really was a trash talker, he hit his share of clutch shots though (and he probably will hit a couple more when it's all said and done) but mentally I give reggie a huge edge.
[QUOTE=Electric Slide]Seeing that you were better off not having Ray do any of those things, I don't see why those skills are even relevant.
Reggie was a better off-ball player pretty easily and he was easily a better playoff performer. [B]Ray was a massive underachiever as a playoff performer in Boston[/B] which was his best years of winning a title.[/QUOTE]
While thats partly true you forget to look at the yrs he was in the playoffs with the bucks and sonics...ray ALWAYS raised his game and theres no denying that but I'm not surprised you didn't know that seeing as some ppl here didn't know ray played basketball before he was on the celtics :lol
and even in boston ray has played well in some of the playoffs he was on Boston...hes had many memorable games (51 points, nba finals record for most 3's in a game/series, had a great 08 finals, many gamewinners, etc)
and in his prime ray was doing everything...hell he ran point for most of the yr in 2004 with seattle for crying out loud...the pacers wouldn't ever think of asking reggie to run point
Im going with Reggie. He had a lot more success as the man of his teams. But its hilarious seeing Jordan homers prop up Reggie so much :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Goldrush25]Now that I think about it, I don't know one area of the game in which Reggie Miller is superior to Ray Allen.[/QUOTE]
this/thread
if ppl wanna use reggies intangibles that greatly then we might as well put him above guys like joe dumars, sam jones, sidney moncrief, hell freakin put him above george gervin too while were at it
think of it this way...you put reggie against tracy mcgrady or grant hill and in terms of careers you would say reggie is better...but nobody in their right mind would take reggie over tracy or hill as players
this comparison between reggie and ray is worse because not only does ray have the better career but he also was a better player then reggie as well