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[QUOTE=swi7ch]Some fans also think Kobe > Jordan :facepalm
These are almost always kids who started watching basketball in the 2000s and have no clue how much Jordan DOMINATED in an era that played true physical basketball.[/QUOTE]
No one has mentioned Jordan in this thread:rolleyes: Let's not act like saying Kobe is better than Duncan is the same as saying Kobe is better than Jordan.
[QUOTE=Big#50]This thread again.
Kobe can be compared to Wade, Lebron, TMAC, Barkley, Iverson, Dirk, KG, Malone and other second tier greats.
The dude won rings with the most dominant player ever. Then won with the best team in the league. He never once came close to doing what Tim did In 03. Not even close. Not even in the same neighborhood of close.
Stop arguing with Kobestans for the love of God.[/QUOTE]
And Duncan has never repeated..............shit the room just went silent huh?
:oldlol:
[QUOTE=macpierce]And Duncan has never repeated..............shit the room just went silent huh?
:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Also Bird has never repeated. And yet he generally ranks in top 5.:oldlol:
Kobe is the only top 10 player who didn't win MVP and FMVP in the same year. What about that.:oldlol:
[QUOTE=macpierce]And Duncan has never repeated..............shit the room just went silent huh?
:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
His career isn't done. This Spurs team should be just as good next year. Probably even better.
Kobe is a high volume shooter. That's It.
[QUOTE=oolalaa]Agreed with everything but I'll just nitpick the bolded.
McHale was definitely a "sidekick". We can never know for sure, but I'm convinced Bird's all time great playmaking/passing added 2 or 3 points to his ppg totals as well as 3/4 percent on top of his already great FG%. I know that McHale often lauded Bird's ability to find him under the hoop for wide open layups/dunks, particuarly during the '86 playoffs.
The difference between his '88 and '89 seasons gives you an idea. His ppg stayed the same but his FG% dropped by almost 6%! And in the 1st round vs Detroit, with him being the focus of Boston's offense, he only managed 19ppg on a measly 49% shooting, compared to 27ppg on 56% in the ECFs the pervious year.
McHale was very good but it was Bird who turned him into a borderline superstar.[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure McHale was having bad foot problems around then.
[QUOTE=Odinn]Also Bird has never repeated. And yet he generally ranks in top 5.:oldlol:
Kobe is the only top 10 player who didn't win MVP and FMVP in the same year. What about that.:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
So he retires with 5 chips, 2 FMVPs, and one regular season MVP
I'm sure he's crying at night about it :D
[QUOTE=Artillery]Nash's team have owned Kobe's teams in the playoffs. Nash is clearly>>>>>Bryant
:oldlol:
Duncan was the only All-NBA player on the 1999, 2003, 2005, 2007 Spurs teams. He was clearly the best player. Compare that to Kobe having another All-NBA teammate on every one of his championship teams(Shaq for 00-02, Gasol '09-'10)
And lol at being weighed heavier. Gasol's win shares were higher than Kobe's throughout the 2010 playoffs. Their PERs was nearly identical. Duncan PER and win shares were well ahead of anyone else on the 2007 Spurs.[/QUOTE]
Hey, what's up dickhead.
If Nash and Kobe were even comparable, with close or equal rings, FMVPs, AS appearances, All NBA First teams, ect, them yes, their head to head match ups WOULD matter. But, they're not. So, the comparison is useless.
People look at head to head match ups in the playoffs, especially when in the same conference and title contenders, when trying to evaluate the difference between two closely ranked players. Ever heard of logic?
Win shares, PER. If you truly think that Kobe's supporting cast in 2009 and 2010 were better than Duncan's in 2007 and, if he gets his 5th in a few weeks, this year, than you already have a spear-headed agenda that I'm not going to waste prime time hours addressing.
And, like I already said, Duncan is the greatest PF of all time, and gets the nod in many scenarios, and rightfully so.
Because unlike Duncan, Kobe is the first option. Not the fifth. :oldlol::roll::oldlol:
[QUOTE=Odinn]Also Bird has never repeated. And yet he generally ranks in top 5.:oldlol:
Kobe is the only top 10 player who didn't win MVP and FMVP in the same year. What about that.:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Bird made it to 4 Finals in a row from '84-'87
Duncan has never made it to the Finals back to back years, every other top 10 player has.
Not sure, why did Lebron score 2 points or less in 4 straight finals 4th quarters when his team needed him the most?
[QUOTE=bwink23]Pretty sure McHale was having bad foot problems around then.[/QUOTE]
He fractured his foot late in the '87 regular season, played the whole playoffs with a broken right foot, and yet still managed to put up a 21/9 on 58%! :eek: :bowdown: He had surgery in the offseason but was never quite the same after that - he lost some lateral mobility which affected his defence, especially.
But, next season, with Bird pulling the strings and having his best regular season to date, he still managed a 22/8/3 on 60% shooting. Then, the very next year, with no notable injuries and Bird out for the whole season, his efficiency took a massive hit. Coincidence? No way.
Interesting poll from the LA Times
[url]http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-tim-duncan-kobe-bryant-20120530,0,6883592.story[/url]
[B]51.7%[/B] of the voters say Duncan has had a better career... compared to [B]48.3%[/B] for Kobe.
Personally, I'd take Duncan for sure. Epitome of a franchise player.
Duncan is better than Kobe, and it's not even close. This current season is only reminding us of Duncan's greatness and whether or not they win, Duncan will still be better than Kobe, and here's why. If spurs do win, it's just gravy at that point. it's officially over and case is closed on Duncan > Kobe
- 13 seasons straight of 50+ wins
- never missing the playoffs since he was drafted
- best winning percentage of the four major sports since he was drafted
- 2 MVP's, 3 Finals MVP, 4 titles
Also, do you kids not play basketball or something? Do you know how hard/demoralizing to get your shot stuffed/altered every time you go into the paint and not be able to GET ANYTHING INSIDE the paint? How frustrating it is to have a guy on the other team that gets every rebound? There's another half to the game called DEFENSE, and Duncan has been the defensive anchor of that team since he was drafted. Heck, when was the last time the Spurs even had a legit center? Btw 6'8" Old man Kurt Thomas. 6'7" Old man McDyss don't count and 6'6" Dajuan Blair don't count.
Enough with this longevity shit LOL. Kobe came outta high school at aged 17, while Duncan stayed for 4 years in college. No shit, Kobe is gonna hold these longevity records or this made-up/reaching "most points in a 16th season" bullshit statistics. If you wanna play like that, let's hypothetically give Duncan 4 more seasons of 22-25ppg, 12-13rebounds, and 2-3 blocks per game... that would vault him top 5 in both REBOUNDING AND SCORING.
- top 5 in rebounding in the playoffs
- top 10 in scoring in playoffs
- all time blocks leader in the playoffs
I won't even get started on statistics and accolades... btw the only thing Kobe might be better than Duncan is scoring, but lets not pretend like Duncan couldn't score... in his prime, he averaged 22-25ppg and is top 5 in scoring in the playoffs.
Kobe 2005-2007... enough said, missing the playoffs, ~40+ win mediocre team. He even missed the playoffs once. Without a dominant big man and a dominant frontline, kobe aint won jack. All he did was whine and cry and demand a trade. Kobe can't put a team on his back. At this point, I'm not even sure if I have him above Dwight Howard, Lebron James, and Allen Iverson at this point... all of these players were drafted by teams that won ~20 games the year before, and took their teams to the finals and completely turned their teams around (~55+ wins + finals appearance) in less than 5 years.
ALSO LOL @ owning Kobe. I didn't know Duncan guarded Kobe head to head. btw 1999, 2003? what happened in 2005? oh wait, la didnt even make the finals.
Duncan never won anything without Pop. So overrated amirite ?
[QUOTE=Punpun]Duncan never won anything without Pop. So overrated amirite ?[/QUOTE]
Are you implying Kobe won a championship without Phil Jackson...?
[QUOTE=onhcetum].
- top 5 in rebounding in the playoffs
- top 10 in scoring in playoffs
- all time blocks leader in the playoffs
[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:
How about...
- top 4 in assists in the playoffs
- all time scoring leader in the playoffs
[QUOTE=SCdac]Are you implying Kobe won a championship without Phil Jackson...?[/QUOTE]
Backfired.:roll: :roll: :roll: :applause: :banana:
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]:oldlol:
How about...
- top 4 in assists in the playoffs
- all time scoring leader in the playoffs[/QUOTE]
LOL... duncan shits on him on defense and its not even close. so, i do agree to a certain extent that kobe [I]may[/I] edge Duncan offensively... Duncan is still top 5 in scoring... so what does that say?
kobe is only marginally better than duncan at scorer (not to mention, Kobe can shoot his team out of a game, Duncan wont and Duncan shoots a higher percentage)
[QUOTE=onhcetum]LOL... duncan shits on him on defense and its not even close. so, i do agree to a certain extent that kobe [I]may[/I] edge Duncan offensively... Duncan is still top 5 in scoring... so what does that say?
kobe is only marginally better than duncan at scorer (not to mention, Kobe can shoot his team out of a game, Duncan wont and Duncan shoots a higher percentage)[/QUOTE]
Shockingly Kobe edges Duncan in everything a guard normally is better at a center at.
:rolleyes:
Dribbling, driving, assisting, perimeter defense, stealing, jump shooting, three point shooting etc...
If we are supposed to be impressed by Duncan likely all time playoff block record (yet we all know Wilt and Russell would have had more had those numbers been recorded) and top 10 scoring ... what are we supposed to do with Kobe's likely place in history as the all time scoring leader in the playoffs and a top 4 passer.?
[QUOTE=onhcetum]LOL... duncan shits on him on defense and its not even close. so, i do agree to a certain extent that kobe [I]may[/I] edge Duncan offensively... Duncan is still top 5 in scoring... so what does that say?
kobe is only marginally better than duncan at scorer (not to mention, Kobe can shoot his team out of a game, Duncan wont and Duncan shoots a higher percentage)[/QUOTE]
Kobe is not marginally better then Duncan as a scorer. As far as all time greats go, Duncan was just not that fantastic offensively. In his prime (00-05) He averaged 23 ppg on 55 TS%, compared to Kobe averaging 30 ppg on 57 TS% (06-09) That's 7 more ppg on a higher shooting %
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Shockingly Kobe edges Duncan in everything a guard normally is better at a center at.
:rolleyes:
Dribbling, driving, assisting, perimeter defense, stealing, jump shooting, three point shooting etc...
If we are supposed to be impressed by Duncan likely all time playoff block record (yet we all know Wilt and Russell would have had more had those numbers been recorded) and top 10 scoring ... what are we supposed to do with Kobe's likely place in history as the all time scoring leader in the playoffs and a top 4 passer.?[/QUOTE]
wilt and russell are like #2/3/4 ALL TIME respectively by most analysts and experts so whatever, so what if hes top3 all time in blocks, doesnt change anything to be honest
all im saying is duncan > defense BY A WIDE MARGIN. go read my piece about playing defense. I'm fairly certain 75% of the posters on these forums dont even PLAY BASKETBALL REGULARLY so you really wouldnt know anything about defense. you guys just sit on the forums all day and look like john clayton.
you're right about kobe being better than duncan at what a guard is suppose to be better at. All I'm saying is that, let's not act like duncan was offensively challenged by ANY STANDARD. if the Spurs needed a basketball, they dumped it into Duncan. But 50% of basketball is on the defensive end, Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck but Duncan's defensive dominance just tips the scale for me and I gotta put duncan ahead of kobe all time
[QUOTE=onhcetum]wilt and russell are like #2/3/4 ALL TIME respectively by most analysts and experts so whatever, so what if hes top3 all time in blocks, doesnt change anything to be honest
all im saying is duncan > defense BY A WIDE MARGIN. go read my piece about playing defense. I'm fairly certain 75% of the posters on these forums dont even PLAY BASKETBALL REGULARLY so you really wouldnt know anything about defense. you guys just sit on the forums all day and look like john clayton.
you're right about kobe being better than duncan at what a guard is suppose to be better at. All I'm saying is that, let's not act like duncan was offensively challenged by ANY STANDARD. if the Spurs needed a basketball, they dumped it into Duncan. But 50% of basketball is on the defensive end, Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck but Duncan's defensive dominance just tips the scale for me and I gotta put duncan ahead of kobe all time[/QUOTE]
From
"Duncan is better than Kobe, and it's not even close."
to
" Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck but Duncan's defensive dominance just tips the scale"
I have no beef with that opinion but its silly to pretend that Kobe isn't arguably right up there with anybody.
I
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]From
"Duncan is better than Kobe, and it's not even close."
to
" Kobe and Duncan are neck and neck but Duncan's defensive dominance just tips the scale"
I have no beef with that opinion but its silly to pretend that Kobe isn't arguably right up there with anybody.
I[/QUOTE]
It's not close because Duncan's D just blows the debate wide open. Before, with all of the stats/accolades/1st team/all stars whatever -- EXCLUDING DEFENSE, it was close and debateable.
[QUOTE=onhcetum]It's not close because Duncan's D just blows the debate wide open. Before, with all of the stats/accolades/1st team/all stars whatever, it was close and debateable.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/wHyCW.png[/IMG]
:confusedshrug:
both greeat era players
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/wHyCW.png[/IMG]
:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
lol u cant be serious. im done with this debate after this post... so kobe's been the best guard defender... so what. how is that mutually exclusive to duncan being x10 the defensive presence that kobe is?
-top 5 in rebounding in playoffs
-all time leader in blocks
duncan controls the paint and grabs rebounds, blocks shots and alters many many more. night in and night out, hes banging in their with the other teams best big man. once again, spurs havent had a legitimate center in over 6-7 years... hes been the defensive anchor of that team since 1997.
Incoming defense: but, but duncans a center/forward while kobe's a guard! and thats expected (dominance on defense). well so be then, kobe and duncan cant control how tall/big they become. but then again... kobe's a slasher/dunker/dribbling/faster/jumps higher, so it evens out
[QUOTE=onhcetum]lol u cant be serious. im done with this debate after this post... so kobe's been the best guard defender... so what. how is that mutually exclusive to duncan being x10 the defensive presence that kobe is?
-top 5 in rebounding in playoffs
-all time leader in blocks
duncan controls the paint and grabs rebounds, blocks shots and alters many many more. night in and night out, hes banging in their with the other teams best big man. once again, spurs havent had a legitimate center in over 6-7 years... hes been the defensive anchor of that team since 1997.[/QUOTE]
You are not blowing me out of the water by repeating top 5 statistics and phony all time best accolades.
top 5 in steals in the the playoffs (likely top 4 finish)
top 7 in assists in the playoffs (likely top 4 finish)
top 3 in scoring in the playoffs (likely all time leader)
:confusedshrug:
How many DPOY awards did Duncan win?
[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]You are not blowing me out of the water by repeating top 5 statistics and phony all time best accolades.
top 5 in steals in the the playoffs (likely top 4 finish)
top 7 in assists in the playoffs (likely top 4 finish)
top 3 in scoring in the playoffs (likely all time leader)
:confusedshrug:
How many DPOY awards did Duncan win?[/QUOTE]
top5 steals doesnt mean shit. I've already ceded that kobe is the better passer (in a vacuum but if we are comparing passing for a guard vs passing for a big, than he isnt that much better than duncan at passing). he can be #1 all time in steals by 2,000+ and it doesnt change the fact that duncan controls the paint and changes the game DEFENSIVELY. stop throwing these empty stats at me. I wish I didn't even mention the blocks/rebounds. You just needa watch basketball to know duncan is a game changer on the defensive end, altering shots/boxing out/blocks/rebounds/ and basically ANCHOR A DEFENSE that has lacked a legit center for years NOW. as good as kobe is as a perimeter defender, he is NOT WHERE NEAR AS dominant as duncan on the defensive end (yes, bc he's a big and kobe isn't. but that's life, you play the cards ur delt)
[QUOTE=onhcetum]top5 steals doesnt mean shit. I've already ceded that kobe is the better passer [B](in a vacuum but if we are comparing passing for a guard vs passing for a big, than he isnt that much better than duncan at passing)[/B]. he can be #1 all time in steals by 2,000+ and it doesnt change the fact that duncan controls the paint and changes the game DEFENSIVELY. stop throwing these empty stats at me. I wish I didn't even mention the blocks/rebounds. You just needa watch basketball to know duncan is a game changer on the defensive end, altering shots/boxing out/blocks/rebounds/ and basically ANCHOR A DEFENSE that has lacked a legit center for years NOW. as good as kobe is as a perimeter defender, he is NOT WHERE NEAR AS dominant as duncan on the defensive end (yes, bc he's a big and kobe isn't. but that's life, you play the cards ur delt)[/QUOTE]
LOL at the double standards you have set.
You admitted Kobe was the best guard defender, but said it fdoesnt mean anything because big men affect the game more on D, but then when someone says Kobe's the better passer[I] it's well I guess so for a guard[/I].:oldlol:
[QUOTE=tpols]LOL at the double standards you have set.
You admitted Kobe was the best guard defender, but said it fdoesnt mean anything because big men affect the game more on D, but then when someone says Kobe's the better passer[I] it's well I guess so for a guard[/I].:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
I worded it wrong. You guys bring up passing and you act like duncan is some sort of klutz when in fact, he's a really good passer. thats all im trying to say.
What do analysts think?
Before the 2010 NBA finals began, Interbasket asked 54 sportswriters, analysts, and basketball experts from around the country to name the top 5 NBA players of all-time. Not a completely surprising list, but there are some interesting results.
1. Michael Jordan 50 of 54 (92.6%)
2. Magic Johnson 44 of 54 (81.5%)
3. Wilt Chamberlain 37 of 54 (68.5%)
4. Larry Bird 35 of 54 (64.8%)
5. Bill Russell 30 of 54 (55.6%)
6. Oscar Robertson 24 of 54 (44.4%)
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 22 of 54 (40.7%)
8. Kobe Bryant 10 of 54 (40.7%)
Kobe got 10 votes, Duncan 2.
[url]http://www.interbasket.net/news/6831/2010/06/jordan-magic-bird-in-top-5-nba-players-all-time-kobe-bryant-8/[/url]
What do fans think?
SportsNation Rankings
rank. player. points
1.Michael Jordan 226,755
2.Magic Johnson 173,043
3.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 150,695
4.Wilt Chamberlain 138,446
5.Larry Bird 136,612
6.Bill Russell 122,451
7.Kobe Bryant 118,471
8.Shaquille O'Neal 89,786
9.Hakeem Olajuwon 68,392
10.Tim Duncan 48,706
[url]http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/7550260[/url]
TNT Player of the Decade (2000-2009) Fan Vote
[IMG]http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/1600/kobepotd.jpg[/IMG]
Kobe was better. Simple.
[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]What do analysts think?
Before the 2010 NBA finals began, Interbasket asked 54 sportswriters, analysts, and basketball experts from around the country to name the top 5 NBA players of all-time. Not a completely surprising list, but there are some interesting results.
1. Michael Jordan 50 of 54 (92.6%)
2. Magic Johnson 44 of 54 (81.5%)
3. Wilt Chamberlain 37 of 54 (68.5%)
4. Larry Bird 35 of 54 (64.8%)
5. Bill Russell 30 of 54 (55.6%)
6. Oscar Robertson 24 of 54 (44.4%)
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 22 of 54 (40.7%)
8. Kobe Bryant 10 of 54 (40.7%)
Kobe got 10 votes, Duncan 2.
[url]http://www.interbasket.net/news/6831/2010/06/jordan-magic-bird-in-top-5-nba-players-all-time-kobe-bryant-8/[/url]
What do fans think?
SportsNation Rankings
rank. player. points
1.Michael Jordan 226,755
2.Magic Johnson 173,043
3.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 150,695
4.Wilt Chamberlain 138,446
5.Larry Bird 136,612
6.Bill Russell 122,451
7.Kobe Bryant 118,471
8.Shaquille O'Neal 89,786
9.Hakeem Olajuwon 68,392
10.Tim Duncan 48,706
[url]http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/7550260[/url]
TNT Player of the Decade (2000-2009) Fan Vote
[IMG]http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/1600/kobepotd.jpg[/IMG]
Kobe was better. Simple.[/QUOTE]
Yup. A chucker and a top five second tier player is better than a legit top 7 player.
[QUOTE=Big#50]Yup. A chucker and a top five second tier player is better than a legit top 7 player.[/QUOTE]
Haha, this retard ranks Tim Duncan as the 2nd best player ever after MJ..:facepalm
OK. do we all realize that TD was unable to defend his title once?
thats right ill say it again.
ZEEEERRRRRRROOOOOOO defended titles
as in
[SIZE="7"]0[/SIZE] title defenses.
sorry folks thats a pretty soft champion.
TD was and is too mentally weak to defend a title.
read it again children let it sink in
[SIZE="7"]ZERO[/SIZE] titles defended
Kobe has 3 defended titles. shaq has 2 and pau has 1.
also prime shaq takes a shit on any version of Tim Duncan. Tim is top 10 all time but please with this ish already. when you are compared to jordan you are the greatest player of your era period.
EDIT::kobe:
/thread
[QUOTE=SMoKe0uT]OK. do we all realize that TD was unable to defend his title once?
thats right ill say it again.
ZEEEERRRRRRROOOOOOO defended titles
as in
[SIZE="7"]0[/SIZE] title defenses.
sorry folks thats a pretty soft champion.
TD was and is too mentally weak to defend a title.
read it again children let it sink in
[SIZE="7"]ZERO[/SIZE] titles defended
EDIT::kobe:
/thread[/QUOTE]
Brilliant argument. Clearly Kobe>Wilt too, since Wilt never won back-to-back titles. :rolleyes:
Also while Tim has the edge on playoff appearances kobe never lost to an 8 seed while being a one seed.
oh yeah. forgot to mention tim failed to defend his title once and thats with 2 hall of fame guards a hall of fame center and a top 5 coach all time!!!
LOLWUT?
Some do, some don't.
I have Duncan over Kobe. But I could see Kobe's longevity surpass him, if he could be very productive for another title run, possibaly add another MVP and Finals MVP as well.
It's a big what if, but not totally out of the woods.
Duncan's longevity hasn't been that great. He's having a very up and down playoff run and depending what he does in the Finals (pending he gets there), might be my deciding factor about where they rank.
I don't think it will make that much of difference, since Duncan isn't the best player on the Spurs now, but he is still their anchor.
[QUOTE=SMoKe0uT]Also while Tim has the edge on playoff appearances kobe never lost to an 8 seed while being a one seed. [B]He got swept defending his title, though:roll: [/B]
oh yeah. forgot to mention tim failed to defend his title once and thats with 2 hall of fame guards a hall of fame center and a top 5 coach all time!!! [B]Kobe failed to defend a title with Shaq, Karl Malone, Gary Payton and Phil Jackson as coach. Next.[/B]
LOLWUT?[/QUOTE]
:sleeping
[QUOTE=RRR3]Brilliant argument. Clearly Kobe>Wilt too, since Wilt never won back-to-back titles. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Did wilt have 2 hall of fame guards a hall of fame center (well PF in his case) and maybe the best coach of all time? naa didnt think so... and on top of that he faced the greatest dynasty of all time?
brilliant argument bro atleast wilt actually made it to two finals in a row. same cant even be said for duncan who failed at even defending the western conference title.
next.
[QUOTE]Brilliant argument. Clearly Kobe>Wilt too, since Wilt never won back-to-back titles.[/QUOTE]
Not that I'm trying to start a Wilt vs Kobe argument...
It still boggles my mind as to how Wilt never led his teams to back to back titles.
He was the anchor to two of the greatest teams of all-time, but it's crazy to me.
Anyways, carry on.