Most credible people have Wilt pretty high in their rankings already. So why waste your time on trolls?
Printable View
Most credible people have Wilt pretty high in their rankings already. So why waste your time on trolls?
[QUOTE=nightprowler10]Most credible people have Wilt pretty high in their rankings already. So why waste your time on trolls?[/QUOTE]It's unlikely that you'll convince the person you're arguing with, but your posts can still influence the neutral readers. Since most people didn't see his career for themselves, their opinion can be easily swayed by trolls, if no one provides a counter argument. Even if most of them rank Wilt high by default, it's useful to solidify his status in their minds, by teaching, or reminding them of the reasons for his high ranking.
As usual Jlauber writes nonsense without writing the full context of our conversation.
90% of all his "ownage" is him "proving" stuff by posting quotes, not actual facts, but quotes.
This self-proclaimed historian once tried to make a list of all big's Wilt faced in the NBA and he completely made a fool of himself. He listed players who never even played in the NBA, players who just played in the ABA and college players who arrived after Wilt retired as Wilt's competition just to hype him up.
This is the same guy who changed his mind after watching box-scores and youtube-videos, his info is pure copy and paste job, he even uses youtube-comments as sources but still you people think he's a "historian".
This is the same guy who wrote garbage like "Kareem got 20 skyhooks blocked by Wilt in '72 series" and when confronted he had the worst comeback of all-time, he told us to prove his statement wrong.. :facepalm
When that nonsense didn't work he told us that he remembers that Kareem actually got 20 blocks blocked, the same guy who couldn't remember how good the 60's and early 70's were suddenly remembered 40 year old games in detail.
The man is a hoax...
[QUOTE=jlauber]
Then, think about this. A mid-60's Wilt had TWO eye-witness accounts, one by Philly sports icon, Sonny Hill, and the other by longtime Sixer trainer, Al Domenico, who claimed they witnessed Wilt touching the top of the backboard (something Wilt acknowledged himself, of course.)
.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I can find 1000 eye-witness accounts who have seen the Loch Ness monster, it still doesn't prove a crap, you clown.
[QUOTE=jlauber]Actually, we have a considerable amount of evidence clearing pointing to Hakeem TRYING to guard a 38-39 year old Kareem in most of their H2H's. There was VIDEO footage of the Kareem's 40 point game against Hakeem on YouTube, (and it might still be there in it's entirety, but I am too lazy to look), but here is the edited version (and probably edited by a Rocket's fan) of that 40 point game. In it you will see Hakeem as the prmary defender.
[/QUOTE]
Still spamming the living crap about rookie and 2nd year pro Olajuwon having problem against Kareem. But as always you never menntion the fact that 2nd year pro Olajuwon absolutely abused Kareem and the Lakers in the '86 playoffs. Spam some more about meaningless regular season games, oldie, fact still remains that 2nd year pro Olajuwon who by no means was close to his prime absolutely destroyed Kareem in the playoffs along with his Laker buddies.
[QUOTE=jlauber]
As for the Gilmore-Hakeem H2H's, I am not certain how much the two defended each other, but CLEARLY, in their first TEN STRAIGHT H2H games, a 35-36 year old Gilmore, in the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, put up these numbers against either Hakeem (incidently they were lined up against each other in the box scores)...
[/QUOTE]
You still don't know if Olajuwon actually guarded Gilmore in those games and still you're spamming about them, you're such a clown. You watch boxscores day in and out and then make judgements based on them boxscores, you even created a Olajuwon vs Gilmore thread when you didn't even know if Hakeem even guarded him... :facepalm
[QUOTE=jlauber]Continuing...
Now, the previous post brings me back to Dickwad's "credibilty." After I researched those Kareem-Hakeem H2H's, and back in around 2008, or so, I completely changed my mind on just how much better the newer generation of athletes were, as compared to those of even the 60's.
.[/QUOTE]
Which only proves what kind of a clown you are.
You changed your mind over boxscores, you didn't even see the games and you challenged me when I told you that Kareem got abused by 2nd year pro Olajuwon in the '86 playoffs.
What happened with watching basketball since the 60's?
And that you even make a judgement on whole era's based on a matchup between Kareem and rookie and 2nd year pro Olajuwon only proves that you're clueless and stupid. And especially when you never mention the fact that Olajuwon was no where close to his prime, the fact that Olajuwon only had proper training just a couple of years prior to his rookie season and barely had no game in the beginning of his college career and that 2nd year pro who was no where close to his prime absolutely destroyed the Lakers and Kareem in the playoffs.. :facepalm
Keep digging your own grave.
[QUOTE=jlauber]Thanks again...
:cheers:
I am too tired to research much of it now, but Kareem got the best of Unseld in the '71 Finals (albeit, the 6-7 Unseld outrebounded him in that series.)
And, I have posted the H2H's before, but Chamberlain just murdered Unseld in the '68-69 H2H's (which is when Unseld won the ROY and MVP...including one game in which he outscored Unseld, 25-4, while outrebounding Wes, 38-9.) Then, in their first meeting the very next season, and before Wilt shredded his knee, Chamberlain dumped a 38 point game on Unseld.[/QUOTE]
U da Man :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:
[QUOTE=millwad]Still spamming the living crap about rookie and 2nd year pro Olajuwon having problem against Kareem. But as always you never menntion the fact that 2nd year pro Olajuwon absolutely abused Kareem and the Lakers in the '86 playoffs. Spam some more about meaningless regular season games, oldie, fact still remains that 2nd year pro Olajuwon who by no means was close to his prime absolutely destroyed Kareem in the playoffs along with his Laker buddies.
[B]You still don't know if Olajuwon actually guarded Gilmore in those games and still you're spamming about them, you're such a clown[/B]. You watch boxscores day in and out and then make judgements based on them boxscores, you even created a Olajuwon vs Gilmore thread when you didn't even know if Hakeem even guarded him... :facepalm[/QUOTE]
Not that I care because the Jlauber vs Millwad thread has happened many times before and they tend to be full of ad hominiem attacks and attempts to catch the other person out rather than reasoned big picture debates of the facts. Perhaps one side more than the other but I'll let other people decide on that.
But to Gilmore versus Olajuwon you'd expect Olajuwon to have been guarded by Olajuwon because:
a) They were the ones playing the center position
and
b) Sampson didn't have the lower body heft or low center of gravity to keep Gilmore from getting great post position. Not that Olajuwon necessarily did but he had by far the better chance.
In any case if you had chosen to reject an argument based on the assumption that they matched up you wouldn't be in this position instead you have repeatedly engaged in debate, implying Jlauber had fabricated games in which the two played in the 84-86 period.
[QUOTE=jlauber]Actually, we have a considerable amount of evidence clearing pointing to Hakeem TRYING to guard a 38-39 year old Kareem in most of their H2H's. There was VIDEO footage of the Kareem's 40 point game against Hakeem on YouTube, (and it might still be there in it's entirety, but I am too lazy to look), but here is the edited version (and probably edited by a Rocket's fan) of that 40 point game. In it you will see Hakeem as the prmary defender.[/QUOTE]
i find that hard to believe. and i did watch that footage before. that video really doesn't prove much. i saw sampson guarding kareem more than akeem guarding kareem. i vaguely remember watching this series as young kid, and only thing i remember was watching 2 tall dudes going at each other. i was saying to myself. 'hm.. kareem must be 7ft 4 too.' i always was fascinated with tall people. lol wish this game was on espn classic. i would have to find tapes and really watch it. if i was a coach, i don't put hakeem on kareem when i have a guy who can match kareem's size. sampson was weak, but it's not like kareem was bulldozing anybody at this point of his career. you gotta match him with length because kareem would just shoot over akeem all day every day.
and i really think you are underrating late 30's kareem. he was an efficient machine playing in a perfect system with a perfect role. he didn't have do too much. he just had to pick a spot and score, and he did that magnificently. no doubt he aged well. and this is one of the reason why Magic is top 3 all time IMO. he just made everybody better. i really believe Magic is the one who made kareem to play as long as he did. playing with magic is just so fun, and players know they will get the ball in a perfect spot.
no doubt wilt will be great in any era. but there really is no definite proof on how great will he be in 80's, 90's or 00's. i think wilt's dominance will be more defensive than offense. and wilt will probably be 25/16 type of a player. shaq like, but with less points, but more rebounds. i just don't think the era we live in favors a center scoring all the time.
i'm not gonna pretend i watched every kareem vs. akeem match up. i didn't. but it's not a rocket science why kareem had a great success against akeem whenever akeem was guarding kareem.
[IMG]http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/NBA%20Height%20Comparison/KareemandHakeem.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Owl]
But to Gilmore versus Olajuwon you'd expect Olajuwon to have been guarded by Olajuwon because:
a) They were the ones playing the center position
and
b) Sampson didn't have the lower body heft or low center of gravity to keep Gilmore from getting great post position. Not that Olajuwon necessarily did but he had by far the better chance.
[/QUOTE]
100% correct.
Sampson was used exclusively at power forward defensively, he was rail thin, and was not up to the task of guarding huge players like Gilmore. It would be like putting a young Garnett on Shaq in terms of size.
millwad has decided that jlauber has switched opinions on one issue, and can't let it go. I like the guy as a poster usually, but in any jlauber thread, I feel like I need to have millwad on ignore.
this would be more frequent match up, logically. but i was just too young to remember. one thing certain though is that sampson did guard kareem. question is how often? i wish i can find a tape and watch it.
[IMG]http://tinyurl.com/cozb6us[/IMG]
[IMG]http://basketball91.com/files/2011/11/Ralph-Sampson-and-Kareem-Abdul-Jabaar.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://tinyurl.com/clq8sao[/IMG]
[IMG]http://tinyurl.com/caqoqla[/IMG]
maybe akeem and sampson just alternated and kareem just owned them both.
[QUOTE=Raz]100% correct.
Sampson was used exclusively at power forward defensively, he was rail thin, and was not up to the task of guarding huge players like Gilmore. It would be like putting a young Garnett on Shaq in terms of size.
millwad has decided that jlauber has switched opinions on one issue, and can't let it go. I like the guy as a poster usually, but in any jlauber thread, I feel like I need to have millwad on ignore.[/QUOTE]
You got to understand where I'm coming from to actually understand why I never bought Jlauber's nonsense.
He is spreading his agenda and it's a new one, I can't respect a guy who constantly tells people off and acts like he's some kind of historian with his biased essays.
I can't respect a guy who claims that he actually remembers details in 40 year old series but couldn't remember how good that era was until few years ago.
And I can't especially respect a guy who only spreads one sided and biased info which he copy and pastes from other sites.
Example: Jlauber is the first to tell EVERYONE how dominated Olajuwon got in his rookie and 2nd season as a pro by Kareem, but he's always the last person to tell you that the same 2nd year pro Olajuwon who was no where close to his prime absolutely dominated Kareem in the '86 playoffs.
He's always the first to tell you how Wilt "locked down" Kareem in '72 playoffs but he is the last to tell you that the same Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting on prime defensive Wilt.
And I can't respect a guy who lives on quotes and then make them facts in his imaginary life. He is discrediting every single all-time great big man who played after Wilt just because it fits his agenda. He is the same guy who in this thread called it him owning me because he used quotes as proof.. :facepalm
Damn, Milwad popping jhummer like a zit. :oldlol:
Here are the REAL facts: Wilt WILTED in the postseason. Guy averaged 50.4 ppg during the 1962 regular season yet ELGIN BAYLOR had more ppg in the playoffs.
How about Wilt in game 7's vs Boston? Just 21.0 ppg and 0-4 in those game 7
[QUOTE=Linspired]
no doubt wilt will be great in any era. but there really is no definite proof on how great will he be in 80's, 90's or 00's. i think wilt's dominance will be more defensive than offense. and wilt will probably be 25/16 type of a player. shaq like, but with less points, but more rebounds. i just don't think the era we live in favors a center scoring all the time.[/QUOTE]
I always had young Wilt moving like prime Amare (26ppg) in terms of speed but back then you primarily created your own shots. Wilt's athletism was like D Robinson - (league leading 28ppg). His power game second to only to Shaq. Dwight Howard is rare in his activity and his attention to center responsibilities these days. Wilt was way more skilled, fundamental, active and tenacious than they ever were. And flat out had a much better touch. If he was on a running pure point guard's team these days (Wall, Kidd, Nash) Wilt would be a terror.
I think a skilled young Amare type of big man would be the most prolific offensively these days. When Kidd and Nash wanted to run defenses had to go along with it. Even Kenyon Martain and Shawn Marion looked good when they did it. Amare had no polish and no offense ran around him and scored 26 ppg. Should tell you something.
jlauber always whining about ppl disprespecting wilt while the only way he props up Wilt is by trying to disrespect Kareem which is very hypocritical of him. Fact of the matter is Kareem won championships and shitloads of them on every team he played for whether it was NBA, NCAA and even High School. He is arguably the best Basketball player of all time so it's obvious why jlauber is trying to pretend Wilt dominated Kareem in their matchups. Here are the stats for every match up you be the judge:
[QUOTE=julizaver]As I promised before two weeks I published the data collected by me:
[B]Regular season – 1969-70[/B]
1. Date: Fri 10/24/69
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 25 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 9-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 23 pts, 20 rebs, 2 as, 2 blocks, 9-21 FG/FGA L
[B]Regular season – 1970-71[/B]
2. Date: Fri 11/20/70
- Chamberlain 28 pts, 23 rebs, 3 as, 10 blocks, 7-20 FG/FGA – 6 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 13 rebs, 0 as, 2 blocks, 13-32 FG/FGA W
3. Date: Mon 12/21/70
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 14 rebs, 3 as, 2 blocks, 11-23 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 16 rebs, 0 as, 4 blocks, 17-33 FG/FGA W
4. Date: Fri 02/05/71
- Chamberlain 14 pts, 14 rebs, 3 as, 6 blocks, 7-10 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 27 pts, 10 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA L
5. Date: Thu 02/11/71
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 11 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 21 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 13-30 FG/FGA – 2 blocks against Wilt W
6. Date: Wed 03/03/71
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 13 rebs, 5 as, 8 blocks, 7-15 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 15 pts, 6 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-21 FG/FGA W
[B]Post season – 1970-71 – WCF playoffs[/B]
7. Date: Fri 04/09/71
- Chamberlain 22 pts, 20 rebs, 1 as, 8 blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA – 3 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 32 pts, 22 rebs, 1 as, 1 blocks, 14-30 FG/FGA W
8. Date: Sun 04/11/71
- Chamberlain 26 pts, 22 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA - Wilt blocked numerious shots L
-Abdul-Jabbar 22 pts, 10 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W
9. Date: Wed 04/14/71
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 24 rebs, 3 as, 3 blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 19 rebs, 6 as, 0 blocks, 8-16 FG/FGA L
10.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 15 pts, 16 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-14 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 20 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 14-20 FG/FGA W
11.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 23 pts, 12 rebs, 4 as, 6 blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA – 5 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 15 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 7-23 FG/FGA W
[B]Regular season – 1971-72[/B]
12.Date: Sat 11/21/71
- Chamberlain 11 pts, 26 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 4-9 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 39 pts, 17 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 17-33 FG/FGA L
13.Date: Sun 01/09/72
- Chamberlain 15 pts, 12 rebs, 2 as, 6 blocks, 7-11 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 39 pts, 20 rebs, 5 as, 9 blocks, 18-34 FG/FGA W
14.Date: Fri 02/04/72
- Chamberlain 18 pts, 25 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 8-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 40 pts, 18 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 16-33 FG/FGA L
15.Date: Wed 03/01/72
- Chamberlain 8 pts, 17 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 3-5 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 33 pts, 12 rebs, 8 as, * blocks, 13-33 FG/FGA L
16.Date: Fri 03/17/72
- Chamberlain 18 pts, 25 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 7-15 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 50 pts, 8 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 22-39 FG/FGA L
[B]Post season – 1971-72 – WCF playoffs[/B]
17.Date: Sun 04/09/72
- Chamberlain 10 pts, 24 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 3-12 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 33 pts, 18 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 14-26 FG/FGA W
18.Date: Wed 04/12/72
- Chamberlain 11 pts, 17 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 3-5 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 40 pts, 7 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 18-31 FG/FGA L
19.Date: Fri 04/14/72
- Chamberlain 7 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, 10 blocks, 1-3 FG/FGA – 6 blocks against Jabbar W
-Abdul-Jabbar 33 pts, 21 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 15-37 FG/FGA L
20.Date: Sun 04/16/72
- Chamberlain 5 pts, 11 rebs, 4 as, 3 blocks, 2-7 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 18 rebs, 3 as, 7 blocks, 14-33 FG/FGA W
21.Date: Tue 04/18/72
- Chamberlain 12 pts, 26 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 2-3 FG/FGA - 4 blocks against Jabbar W
-Abdul-Jabbar 28 pts, 16 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 13-33 FG/FGA L
22.Date: Sat 04/22/72
- Chamberlain 20 pts, 24 rebs, 2 as, 9 blocks, 8-12 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 25 rebs, 8 as, * blocks, 16-37 FG/FGA L
[B]
Regular season – 1972-73[/B]
23.Date: Tue 11/14/72
- Chamberlain 16 pts, 15 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 8-12 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 16 rebs, 6 as, 7 blocks, 17-32 FG/FGA L
24.Date: Tue 12/05/72
- Chamberlain 9 pts, 15 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 4-4 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 17 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 11-30 FG/FGA L
25.Date: Sun 01/07/73
- Chamberlain 9 pts, 18 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 3-5 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 12 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 17-36 FG/FGA W
26.Date: Fri 02/09/73
- Chamberlain 8 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 3-3 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 24 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 14-24 FG/FGA W
27.Date: Sun 02/25/73
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 20 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 10-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 21 pts, 21 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 10-27 FG/FGA L
28.Date: Tue 03/27/73
- Chamberlain 0 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 0-0 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 24 pts, 17 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 12-31 FG/FGA W
W = team wоn
L = team lost
* Blocked stats are collected from archive newspapers articles (as most of the data), NBA doesn't kept track of blocked shots before 1973/74 season. I have some blocked shots numbers ( for example if Wilt blocked 20 shots - 11 of Jabbar in two consecutive games in 1972 WCF - and if that were the game 5 and 6 - it will be like Wilt had 11 blocks (4 against Jabbar) in game 5 and 9 blocks (7 against Jabbar) in game 6. But since if I am not able to cross checked it I did not put that data. Also I find in the forum info about Wilt blocked 8 shots in game 1 of 1971/72 regular season, but I was not able to find evidence in google news archive search,so again I do not post it.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Linspired]i'm not gonna pretend i watched every kareem vs. akeem match up. i didn't. but it's not a rocket science why kareem had a great success against akeem whenever akeem was guarding kareem.
[IMG]http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/NBA%20Height%20Comparison/KareemandHakeem.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
What is it? That fact that Akeem had quicker speed at that point? Or is it his obvious stronger build?
A couple inches doesn't mean anything. Unless you are saying that height can make the difference in a matchup. Thanks for the info, I always wondered why most ranked Manute Bol above Kareem
Nice post jlauber....In the words of John Sununu, you're struggling milwad
Context for the stats in the post above, Wilt was seriously injured in the 69-70 season.
When he came back he completed his transition to a defense and rebounding focused played. Wilt had often changed roles throughout his career and even prior to that season had accepted a vastly decreased role on offense in LA the previous year taking just 13.6 shots a game third to West (19) and Baylor (21.5) per minute Wilt had taken less shots than all but one other Laker (Freddie Crawford). [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1969.html[/url]
This is not to detract from Jabbar who I have rated as 2-3 all time, but merely contextual info which should be borne in mind when comparing the two's statistical performances. In any case any attempt to damage the legacy of one is silly and counterproductive as it makes the their rivals accomplishments against them seem trivial.
[QUOTE=Math2]What is it? That fact that Akeem had quicker speed at that point? Or is it his obvious stronger build?
A couple inches doesn't mean anything. Unless you are saying that height can make the difference in a matchup. Thanks for the info, I always wondered why most ranked Manute Bol above Kareem
Nice post jlauber....In the words of John Sununu, you're struggling milwad[/QUOTE]
do you only see couple of inches there? :no: do you only see couple of inches between shaq & ben wallace too?
kareem is taller than hakeem by 4 inches. imagine 6ft 8 dude guarding a 7ft dude. no matter how fast and quick 6ft 8 dude maybe, a legit 7ft dude who has 4 inches on a smaller defender will have easier time scoring.
i'm still not convinced akeem guarded kareem all 4 qtrs of basketball. if akeem ever did, he would have a trouble against kareem's legendary sky hook which he clearly perfected.
akeem was far away from being a dominant force at this stage of his career. i will not be surprised that kareem just owned inexperienced young stud in stretches because kareem was that good even in late 30's.
dwight howard is quicker and many times more athletic than Yao. but Yao owned dwight more often than not because of the height and skill advantage.
he's definitely better educated than most posters here
[QUOTE=Owl]Context for the stats in the post above, Wilt was seriously injured in the 69-70 season.
When he came back he completed his transition to a defense and rebounding focused played. Wilt had often changed roles throughout his career and even prior to that season had accepted a vastly decreased role on offense in LA the previous year taking just 13.6 shots a game third to West (19) and Baylor (21.5) per minute Wilt had taken less shots than all but one other Laker (Freddie Crawford). [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1969.html[/url]
This is not to detract from Jabbar who I have rated as 2-3 all time, but merely contextual info which should be borne in mind when comparing the two's statistical performances. In any case any attempt to damage the legacy of one is silly and counterproductive as it makes the their rivals accomplishments against them seem trivial.[/QUOTE]
jlauber always tells one side of the story so I decided to bring things into perspective.
I don't have a lot of time right now, but there some excellent responses above.
In any case, here is the bottom line...
A 34 year old Wilt battled a statistically prime Kareem to a statistical draw in the entire 10 H2H games in the 70-71 season (including the playoffs.) This, a year after major knee surgery, and well past his prime.
Nate Thurmond outscored and outshot Kareem in the '72 playoffs, and held him to .428 in the '73 playoffs.
Dave Cowens outplayed Kareem in game seven of the '74 Finals.
Bob McAdoo in the mid-70's routinely outscored Kareem (and without taking the time to look it up, McAdoo mah have had a 41 point game against him.)
In my preliminary research, both Lanier and Gilmore pretty much battled Kareem to standstills in their H2H's.
And Moses pounded Kareem in the late 70's thru the early 80's.
And yet an OLD Kareem could just annihilate Hakeem and Ewing in the mid-80's.
And both Hakeem and Ewing would go on to be among the top-4 centers of the 90's. A Prime Hakeem actually battled a young Shaq to a draw in the '95 Finals.
And, think about this...Shaq's career high game against Hakeem, was 37 points. An OLD Kareem had THREE of 40 just against Hakeem.
And Shaq would go to dominate the late 90's and early 00's.
^Interesting points, I think something you've discovered that experience and guile trump inexperience and youthfulness.
That's why you would see an old Shaq beating up on Greg Oden or Dwight Howard. The same reason you see an old, creaky Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett play Dwight Howard to a standstill.
[QUOTE=jlauber]I don't have a lot of time right now, but there some excellent responses above.
In any case, here is the bottom line...
A 34 year old Wilt battled a statistically prime Kareem to a statistical draw in the entire 10 H2H games in the 70-71 season (including the playoffs.) This, a year after major knee surgery, and well past his prime.
Nate Thurmond outscored and outshot Kareem in the '72 playoffs, and held him to .428 in the '73 playoffs.
Dave Cowens outplayed Kareem in game seven of the '74 Finals.
In my preliminary research, both Lanier and Gilmore pretty much battled Kareem to standstills in their H2H's.
And Moses pounded Kareem in the late 70's thru the early 80's.
And yet an OLD Kareem could just annihilate Hakeem and Ewing in the mid-80's.
And both Hakeem and Ewing would go on to be among the top-4 centers of the 90's. A Prime Hakeem actually battled a young Shaq to a draw in the '95 Finals.
And, think about this...Shaq's career high game against Hakeem, was 37 points. An OLD Kareem had THREE of 40 just against Hakeem.
And Shaq would go to dominate the late 90's and early 00's.[/QUOTE]
1. kareem was a still doing his thing in 80's. he still was a great offensive weapon up until 87 ish. high fg% is a good indication.
2. kareem played for a dominant team. why are you ignoring this?
3. ewing & hakeem was still young pups compared to kareem in mid 80's. kareem dropped 40 on ewing in 86. in 1986, ewing was far away from being a great center. ewing & hakeem came to their own in late 80's and became dominant early 90's to mid 90's. ewing's statistical jump happened in 1989.
go watch hakeem in 94 & 95 and watch young akeem. and tell me if they are same players. they aren't. and ewing became a dominant and complete center around 89. that was the first year he avg double digit reb.
:confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=Linspired]do you only see couple of inches there? :no:
[/QUOTE]
Yes.
[QUOTE=Linspired]
kareem is taller than hakeem by 4 inches. [/QUOTE]
My point exactly.
[QUOTE] kareem is taller than hakeem by 4 inches. imagine 6ft 8 dude guarding a 7ft dude. no matter how fast and quick 6ft 8 dude maybe, a legit 7ft dude who has 4 inches on a smaller defender will have easier time scoring. [/QUOTE]
You mean that Darrell Imhoff had an easier time scoring on Russell than Wilt? Height doesn't mean everything.
[QUOTE=Pointguard] in fact, he's among the best on this site, if not the best. [/QUOTE]
Jlauber has absolutely no case as the best poster on this site when there are guys who routinely post equally thought provoking and well thought out post, yet also manage to do it in an un-biased manner.
[QUOTE=DatAsh]Jlauber has absolutely absolutely no case as the best poster on this site when there are guys who routinely post equally thought provoking and well thought out post, yet also manage to do it in an un-biased manner.[/QUOTE]
Best poster? LOL! Jlauber understands only one thing and that is stats. :biggums:
Facts:
- He is extremely biased towards Wilt.
- He will never say anything that downgrades Wilt.
- He will prop up other stars from Wilt's era to prop up Wilt.
- He will diminish other stars from Wilt's era to prop up Wilt.
- He believes every feat that is said to be done by Wilt.
Sure he does great research but who's to say everything he copy pastes is 100% accurate? Fact is jlauber is a Wilt stan, and last I checked no stan makes the best posters list. If you believe everything he posts as facts, then... :facepalm
[QUOTE=Asukal]Best poster? LOL! Jlauber understands only one thing and that is stats. :biggums:
Facts:
- He is extremely biased towards Wilt.
- He will never say anything that downgrades Wilt.
- He will prop up other stars from Wilt's era to prop up Wilt.
- He will diminish other stars from Wilt's era to prop up Wilt.
- He believes every feat that is said to be done by Wilt.
Sure he does great research but who's to say everything he copy pastes is 100% accurate? Fact is jlauber is a Wilt stan, and last I checked no stan makes the best posters list. If you believe everything he posts as facts, then... :facepalm[/QUOTE]
No answer for the H2H Kareem / Hakeem stats Milwad posted, so in typical Jlauber fashion, he goes on a tangent debating something else entirely.
Weird that it's only "cool" to stan when it's an oldschool player. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Math2]Yes.
My point exactly.
You mean that Darrell Imhoff had an easier time scoring on Russell than Wilt? Height doesn't mean everything.[/QUOTE]
4 inches is a huge difference. not only that the standing reach difference is 7 inch + and we are talking about great Kareem, not some scrub. kareem's 9ft 8 inch standing reach is part of his strength. his sky hook wouldn't be as effective if he was 6ft 10 like hakeem was. let's not act like it doesn't matter. it matters. akeem is vastly undersized when he is going up against 7ft 2 top 3-4 greatest all time.
[QUOTE=DatAsh]Jlauber has absolutely no case as the best poster on this site when there are guys who routinely post equally thought provoking and well thought out post, yet also manage to do it in an un-biased manner.[/QUOTE]
:lol at you making sure you didn't get my full sentence.
But he has a case as being the best poster for the simple reason of attention, and energy he draws up while keeping another era relevant.
I don't know who is unbiased on this board? Why even make pretension that somebody is that way? Why come to a fan site and act like you are a computer? Not one person here is unbiased and if they have fooled you doesn't make them a good poster. This board isn't a court and posters don't need a court quality to be good. Much better to just be honest and say what you feel. Everybody here has their opinions and everybody here has an irrational one in there somewhere - there are no exceptions. You always hope that the poster is rational and coherent.
The fact that Jlauber has changed his mind, means he's in a better place than most posters. Because it means he's always assessing and evaluating what he knows. If you don't allow room for growth than you peaked before you really understood what you think you know.
When I coached a player like KG I totally felt different about KG's value to a team. I went from disliking a player to really seeing great value in him. Both were biases. Its important to distinguish judging and bias. I never judged this player as being harmful or unworthy - I initially just didn't like his style but I thought he was the best player around. I think too many of you confuse having a bias with being judgmental.
[QUOTE=jlauber]
And yet an OLD Kareem could just annihilate Hakeem and Ewing in the mid-80's.
And both Hakeem and Ewing would go on to be among the top-4 centers of the 90's. A Prime Hakeem actually battled a young Shaq to a draw in the '95 Finals.
And, think about this...Shaq's career high game against Hakeem, was 37 points. An OLD Kareem had THREE of 40 just against Hakeem.
And Shaq would go to dominate the late 90's and early 00's.[/QUOTE]
No, Olajuwon didn't battle a young Shaq to a draw, you're obsessed with quotes so let me give you a quote from Shaq himself;
"If I can't beat you, I'll be a man and say I can't beat you. I'm not going to [cry about it]. . . . I'm the first guy to say that somebody is better than me. I was the first guy to say Hakeem Olajuwon beat me in the [1995] NBA finals. He killed me. He dominated me. I didn't go, 'Oh, he's traveling. They had experience. Wah-wah-wah.' I'm a man. Hakeem Olajuwon dusted my butt."
But still you are discrediting Olajuwon with your nonsense, you even claimed that Olajuwon got outplayed in that series but only changed your mind after people started to bash you like crazy for that BS.
It's funny how you use stats, everyone says that Olajuwon outplayed Shaq in the series in '95, even Shaq himself. You're the only one who thinks it was either Shaq outplaying Olajuwon or it being a draw.
Do you remember when you tried to make a game by game analyze after I told you to do so, you gave game 3 of that series to Shaq which proves that you didn't even see the series.
Not only that, stats makes you spam about the '95 series between Shaq and Hakeem was a draw, but you don't use the same logic when it comes to Wilt.
In his '72 series vs Kareem and the Bucks Wilt got outscored by 23 points per game on better FG% and outassisted etc, that is according to you "Wilt killing Kareem" but your logic fails completely when it doesn't fit your agenda.
You're garbage.
[QUOTE=Pointguard]:lol at you making sure you didn't get my full sentence.
[/QUOTE]
I only quoted the part I disagreed with. I'm with you in the sense that Jlauber is a generally one of the better posters on this site, and he does back up his points. As an old guy myself, I appreciate the light he sheds on the NBA's past. I just can't put him on the same tier as guys like G.O.A.T. and ShaqAttack who provide just as much insight(if not more) and do it with 100x less bias.
You're right that everyone is biased to at least some degree, but you're deluded if you think that someone like G.O.A.T. is anywhere near as biased as Jlauber.
[QUOTE=DatAsh]I only quoted the part I disagreed with. I'm with you in the sense that Jlauber is a generally one of the better posters on this site, and he does back up his points. As an old guy myself, I appreciate the light he sheds on the NBA's past. I just can't put him on the same tier as guys like G.O.A.T. and ShaqAttack who provide just as much insight(if not more) and do it with 100x less bias.
[B]You're right that everyone is biased to at least some degree, but you're deluded if you think that someone like G.O.A.T. is anywhere near as biased as Jlauber.[/B][/QUOTE]
It seems that Jlauber only really gets biased when it comes to defending Wilt's legacy. The problem is that when he begins defending Wilt, he tends to embellish and make constant excuses for Wilt's shortcomings, while at the same time trying to downplay other Greats with half truths, hoping that he doesn't get called on them.
He goes into "Troll" mode just like everyone else here at ISH. It just looks more sophisticated because he uses a lot more paragraphs instead of a "U Mad" pic like the youngsters do. Still like him as a poster though, but he ain't no saint, at least based on how he was getting praised earlier in this thread.
[QUOTE=Nevaeh]It seems that Jlauber only really gets biased when it comes to defending Wilt's legacy. The problem is that when he begins defending Wilt, he tends to embellish and make constant excuses for Wilt's shortcomings, while at the same time trying to downplay other Greats with half truths, hoping that he doesn't get called on them.
He goes into "Troll" mode just like everyone else here at ISH. It just looks more sophisticated because he uses a lot more paragraphs instead of a "U Mad" pic like the youngsters do. Still like him as a poster though, but he ain't no saint, at least based on how he was getting praised earlier in this thread.[/QUOTE]
It's mainly just Wilt, but he's also fairly biased for Magic/against Bird, and really biased against Olajuwon.
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Damn, Milwad popping jhummer like a zit. :oldlol:
Here are the REAL facts: Wilt WILTED in the postseason. Guy averaged 50.4 ppg during the 1962 regular season yet ELGIN BAYLOR had more ppg in the playoffs.
How about Wilt in game 7's vs Boston? Just 21.0 ppg and 0-4 in those game 7
[QUOTE=millwad]No, Olajuwon didn't battle a young Shaq to a draw, you're obsessed with quotes so let me give you a quote from Shaq himself;
"If I can't beat you, I'll be a man and say I can't beat you. I'm not going to [cry about it]. . . . I'm the first guy to say that somebody is better than me. I was the first guy to say Hakeem Olajuwon beat me in the [1995] NBA finals. He killed me. He dominated me. I didn't go, 'Oh, he's traveling. They had experience. Wah-wah-wah.' I'm a man. Hakeem Olajuwon dusted my butt."
But still you are discrediting Olajuwon with your nonsense, you even claimed that Olajuwon got outplayed in that series but only changed your mind after people started to bash you like crazy for that BS.
It's funny how you use stats, everyone says that Olajuwon outplayed Shaq in the series in '95, even Shaq himself. You're the only one who thinks it was either Shaq outplaying Olajuwon or it being a draw.
Do you remember when you tried to make a game by game analyze after I told you to do so, you gave game 3 of that series to Shaq which proves that you didn't even see the series.
Not only that, stats makes you spam about the '95 series between Shaq and Hakeem was a draw, but you don't use the same logic when it comes to Wilt.
In his '72 series vs Kareem and the Bucks Wilt got outscored by 23 points per game on better FG% and outassisted etc, that is according to you "Wilt killing Kareem" but your logic fails completely when it doesn't fit your agenda.
You're garbage.[/QUOTE]
Hakeem's TEAMMATES badly outplayed Shaq's. For all of your nonsense about how little help Hakeem had, he had SAMPSON reducing Kareem's effectiveness in the '86 WCF's, and Thorpe shooting a huge percenatge while outrebounding Hakeem himself in the '94 Finals, and then he had his TEAMMATES collectively outshooting Shaq's in FG%, 2 3pt % and by a huge point differential at the foul line, in a series in which, Shaq scored 28 ppg on, get this... .595 shooting (contrast that with Kareem shooting .457, and only .414 over the course of his last FOUR games of the '72 WCF's), as well as outrebounding, outassisting, and outblocking Hakeem in that series.
And I get sick-and-tired of those that use Shaq's absolute dominance in second half over Hakeem, in a loss, as some kind of excuse. Hakeem was hanging on for dear life.
Of course, idiots like yourself also NEVER mention that Shaq BADLY outplayed Hakeem in their ENTIRE career H2H's, and especially in the '99 post-season. A young Shaq gets no excuse, even though YOU have used it in defense of HAKEEM (against Kareem), and then, you NEVER bring up a more PRIME Shaq just murdering Hakeem. BUT, you will point out a PRIME Kareem outscoring an OLD Wilt, playing on a surgically repaired knee in the '72 WCF's...and in series in which it was UNIVERSALLY accepted that Wilt outplayed Kareem.
This from the same CLOWN who, in all seriousness, claimed that Bynum would have dominated Wilt.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
jlauber, who would be better in Today's League - Wilt, Bynum, Ben Wallace, or Russell?
[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]jlauber, who would be better in Today's League - Wilt, Bynum, Ben Wallace, or Russell?[/QUOTE]
You tell me.
We KNOW that Wilt was taller, bigger, longer, stronger, faster, more athletic, and more skilled than either Bynum or Wallce, though.
[QUOTE=DatAsh]I only quoted the part I disagreed with. I'm with you in the sense that Jlauber is a generally one of the better posters on this site, and he does back up his points. As an old guy myself, I appreciate the light he sheds on the NBA's past. I just can't put him on the same tier as guys like G.O.A.T. and ShaqAttack who provide just as much insight(if not more) and do it with 100x less bias.
You're right that everyone is biased to at least some degree, but you're deluded if you think that someone like G.O.A.T. is anywhere near as biased as Jlauber.[/QUOTE]
GOAT does make an effort to be less biased but that doesn't make him a better poster. In the end, he still is biased. When I first came on this board I had it out with GOAT about his biases and intolerance of different opinions. Perhaps to you being clear of biases is high on your list of being a good poster: I think there's some room for that in being a journalist but its useless on message boards. A message board is a place for opinions - not scientific journalism. You're deluded if you think people go to message boards to get the unbiased and undisputed truth about basketball from guys, as in many cases on these boards, that never played organized ball. I can tell GOAT played the game - so I'm not saying this about him.
You can only be a good poster here if you are a fan of the sport and understand competition. As a poster Jlauber is competitive and goes hard to score his point. He's supposed to do that.
[QUOTE=jlauber]You tell me.
We KNOW that Wilt was taller, bigger, longer, stronger, faster, more athletic, and more skilled than either Bynum or Wallce, though.[/QUOTE]
You said Russell would be Ben Wallace in today's league, and Russell won 11 rings in Wilt's era. So you tell me.
And lol @ being stronger than Ben Wallace