[QUOTE=Champ]Bird was every bit a versatile and multifaceted as Magic.[/QUOTE]
No, he wasn't. He didnt have the ballhandling or slashing ability Magic did.
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[QUOTE=Champ]Bird was every bit a versatile and multifaceted as Magic.[/QUOTE]
No, he wasn't. He didnt have the ballhandling or slashing ability Magic did.
[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]They said the same about Magic as well and they said that even in the 90s.
Plus, I read a post about it earlier saying that the main reason why Bird may have gotten more GOAT recognition because most news and broadcasts were from the East coast which is to Bird's advantage. It doesn't mean he is better, it just means Bird was in a better situation to get more recognition.
Magic didn't get overrated, Magic just got better and was utilized more for the Lakers. Magic's prime was from like '87-'90 whereas Bird's prime was '84-'86. Magic always did whatever it took to win. Earlier in his career, he set up his teammates a lot because he played on a great team and he won. Later in his career, he started having more responsibility with the scoring load because his teammates weren't that great anymore and they still won.
It's not Magic's fault that he happens to be very good at the game of basketball.[/QUOTE]
I'd like to see a video/article/quote/anything of someone with any kind of credibility whatsoever saying Magic was the GOAT during the 80s. Sounds like a bullshit statement with nothing to back it up. Prove me wrong.
Yeah Bird got more recognition than the guy who was a media whore, drafted first by the lakers, and won an NCAA title and NBA Title in back to back years. Cool story bro.
Magic won in the late 80s because the Celtics reign ended due to them setting up their reliance in a Len Bias drafted 2nd overall in 86, which was great as the 86 Celtics are arguably the best team of all-time and ON TOP OF THAT adding arguably the greatest prospect. Magics team was still better. His competition just wasn't as good due to Bird breaking down and not having the help Magic did. The Sixers were also done too at the time. The only real great team was the Pistons and they didn't have any top tier hall of famers like other great teams. (Bird-Jordan-Malone tier)
Magic didn't get any better in those later years. He just scored more, and he had to be a bigger scoring option. This came at a price as his efficiency dropped and he never was above 50% after 87 which you said his prime was.
[QUOTE=MiamiThrice]I'd like to see a video/article/quote/anything of someone with any kind of credibility whatsoever saying Magic was the GOAT during the 80s. Sounds like a bullshit statement with nothing to back it up. Prove me wrong.[/quote]
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7623446&postcount=114[/url]
[QUOTE]Los Angeles bounded into championship orbit on a booster rocket provided by the Utah Jazz. For signing Gail Goodrich as a free agent three years earlier, Utah surrendered a first-round draft choice the Lakers used to select the greatest player in the history of hoops: Magic Johnson.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Billy Cunningham -If someone said Magic is the greatest of all time, I couldn’t disagree.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Cotton Fitzsimmons - Magic might be the greatest player I’ve ever seen, and at 6 feet 9, he’s definitely the best point guard I’ve seen.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]He is, arguably, the best player of all time. Unquestionably, he is the most versatile. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]The greatest basketball player in the history of the game is playing in this NBA championship — and it isn’t Michael Jordan.
Do you believe in Magic? [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Bob Ryan - he’s the greatest basketball player I’ve ever seen
[/QUOTE]
There is more in that post that I linked for you. He posted all the people that said Magic was the greatest ever or arguably. Even Bob Ryan, who is from Boston said that Magic is the greatest he's ever seen and better than Bird.
[quote]Magic didn't get any better in those later years. He just scored more, and he had to be a bigger scoring option. This came at a price as his efficiency dropped and he never was above 50% after 87 which you said his prime was.[/QUOTE]
1987 - 23.9 ppg with 52.2% FG
1988 - 19.6 ppg with 49.2% FG
1989 - 22.5 ppg with 50.9% FG
1990 - 22.3 ppg with 48% FG
It would appear he did and he was still close to the 50% range even after '87 when he took on more of the scoring load.
Also, he was injured in 1988 for about 10 games and he even came off the bench for two games that season.
His TS% was also the same, if not better during his prime years which goes to show you that he was more aggressive with his scoring and got more trips to the line.
1987 - 60.2% TS
1988 - 58.1% TS
1989 - 62.5% TS
1990 - 62.2% TS
He almost always shot in the low 60% range for TS% every season in his career.
His playoff numbers were always great as well even his efficiency and that lies the difference between Bird and Magic. Magic was a much better post-season performer than Bird was.
[QUOTE]Magic won in the late 80s because the Celtics reign ended due to them setting up their reliance in a Len Bias drafted 2nd overall in 86, which was great as the 86 Celtics are arguably the best team of all-time and ON TOP OF THAT adding arguably the greatest prospect.[/QUOTE]
The biggest reason is actually because most Celtics players especially Bird were not very durable.
The Lakers stayed healthy longer which led them to play longer and win more championships specifically Magic Johnson.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]No, he wasn't. He didnt have the ballhandling or slashing ability Magic did.[/QUOTE]
And Magic didn't have the rebounding or shooting ability Bird had.
This could go point/counterpoint ad nauseum because both players are so comparable. Trust me.
Magic might have arguably accomplished more, but i think Larry Bird was a better talent/more skilled individual player...
Hell, if Larry Bird had 1st all-defensive/DPOY type of defense would there even be any doubt who the most complete individual player ever was? He could do literally anything as good as anybody...
[QUOTE=pauk]Magic might have arguably accomplished more, but i think Larry Bird was a better talent/more skilled individual player...
Hell, if Larry Bird had 1st all-defensive/DPOY type of defense would there even be any doubt who the most complete individual player ever was?[/QUOTE]
I'm willing to bet your foreign a$$ hasn't seen one full game of either of them.
[QUOTE=Champ]And Magic didn't have the rebounding or shooting ability Bird had.
This could go point/counterpoint ad nauseum because both players are so comparable. Trust me.[/QUOTE]
Magic was just good a rebounder. He was getting 8-10 boards [B]from the PG [/B]spot, and shooting ability doesnt affect positional versatility as much as ballhandling does. Magic could play 1-5. Bird couldnt play PG or SG due to his lack of comparable ballhandling ability.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]I'm willing to bet your foreign a$$ hasn't seen one full game of either of them.[/QUOTE]
I have over 200 80s Lakers and Celtics games on dvd/vhs/divx.. excluding those i dont have which i have seen thanks to youtube and various sites... so if you have not seen more than that then its to bad you didnt really put your money on my "foreign a$$" because you would have lost, big time...
Larry Bird was a better individual talent/skill than Magic... ask Magic and travel back in time and witness majority of fans/players/coaches etc. consider Larry Bird being better... Magic was not any noticeably better until 1988-1991... all due to a screwed back Larry had (which he played thru)...
[QUOTE=StateOfMind12][url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7623446&postcount=114[/url] [/quote]
So your source is some poster on this website? Wrong, I want the actual newspaper articles/quotes or videos saying such. I want credible sources, not probable bullshit. I googled the first few quotes and the only result I got was insidehoops pages
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rto2_oYVs0I[/url]
See 2:40 of this video, this is in 1985 and the announcer mentions how Naismith basketball hall of famers Red Auerbach(Mr 9 rings), Bob Cousy(best point guard other than Magic), and KC Jones all say that Bird is the best they've ever seen. Again this is in 1985. And this is indefinetly, not arguably as most of your probable BS Magic quotes are.
[QUOTE]
1987 - 23.9 ppg with 52.2% FG
1988 - 19.6 ppg with 49.2% FG
1989 - 22.5 ppg with 50.9% FG
1990 - 22.3 ppg with 48% FG
It would appear he did and he was still close to the 50% range even after '87 when he took on more of the scoring load.
Also, he was injured in 1988 for about 10 games and he even came off the bench for two games that season.
His TS% was also the same, if not better during his prime years which goes to show you that he was more aggressive with his scoring and got more trips to the line.
1987 - 60.2% TS
1988 - 58.1% TS
1989 - 62.5% TS
1990 - 62.2% TS
He almost always shot in the low 60% range for TS% every season in his career.[/QUOTE]
How does this disprove that his efficiency was worse at the end of his career when he took on a bigger load? That was my claim. Compare them for yourself if you don't believe me.[QUOTE]
His playoff numbers were always great as well even his efficiency and that lies the difference between Bird and Magic. Magic was a much better post-season performer than Bird was.[/QUOTE]
Playoff numbers
Bird: 24 PPG 10 RPG 7 APG 47% shooting 89% FT shooting
Magic: 19 PPG 7 RPG 12 APG 50% shooting 83% FT shooting
Yeah bro Magic was definetly a "much better post-season performer" LOL. Shit Ill argue that Bird was better. Better go to scorer, more points, superior rebounding, only averages less assists because he doesn't hog the ball.
[QUOTE]
The biggest reason is actually because most Celtics players especially Bird were not very durable.
The Lakers stayed healthy longer which led them to play longer and win more championships specifically Magic Johnson.[/QUOTE]
Funny since Magic Johnson had to retire from basketball prematurely for contracting the HIV virus via a homosexual affair he had in the later part of his career. At least Birds premature retirement was because he gave it his all on the court and his body paid for it.
[QUOTE]to retire from basketball prematurely for contracting the HIV virus via a homosexual affair he had in the later part of his caree[/QUOTE]
Yeah, you DONT have an agenda:roll:
Magic Johnson was a better:
Ballhandler
Passer
Larry Bird was a better:
Defender (He was a 3 time all-defensive team defender)
Scorer & Scoring Arsenal
Shooter
Rebounder
and when talking about passing skills themselves, Larry was actually not so bad at it himself....
Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).
[QUOTE=MiamiThrice]How does this disprove that his efficiency was worse at the end of his career when he took on a bigger load? That was my claim. Compare them for yourself if you don't believe me.[/quote]
'80-'86 - 17.8 ppg with 54.2% FG, 60.8% TS, 54.6% eFG
'87-'90 - 22.1 ppg with 50.2% FG, 60.8% TS, and 52.2% eFG
Lower FG% but same TS% despite much more points in '87-'90
This is just regular season stats as well.
Before you discredit TS%, it just goes to show you that Magic was more aggressive at scoring and taking it to the hoop in '87-'90 and that is why his TS% remained the same despite a lower FG%. He was also an improved FT shooter from '87-'90.
[QUOTE]Playoff numbers
Bird: 24 PPG 10 RPG 7 APG 47% shooting 89% FT shooting
Magic: 19 PPG 7 RPG 12 APG 50% shooting 83% FT shooting[/QUOTE]
Career it looks like the same, maybe an edge to Bird but if you point out specific and important series like Finals, Conference Finals, etc. you would see that Bird had far more poor playoff series than Magic did.
Bird was up and down in the playoffs which is why his averages are like that. Magic was consistently great in the playoffs.
I can only think of like 1-2 poor playoff series by Magic, I can think of a decent amount for Bird.
[quote]Funny since Magic Johnson had to retire from basketball prematurely for contracting the HIV virus via a homosexual affair he had in the later part of his career. At least Birds premature retirement was because he gave it his all on the court and his body paid for it.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: It doesn't matter, Magic was still going strong and dominant from '87-'90 whereas Bird wasn't anymore. Bird was actually arguably the MVP in '88 and some argue that he should have been the MVP over Jordan but Bird played pretty poor in that post-season specifically the ECF against the Pistons.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Magic was just good a rebounder. He was getting 8-10 boards [B]from the PG [/B]spot, and shooting ability doesnt affect positional versatility as much as ballhandling does. Magic could play 1-5. Bird couldnt play PG or SG due to his lack of comparable ballhandling ability.[/QUOTE]
Magic was not just as good a rebounder. You're grasping at straws with this one.
Please explain how shooting ability doesn't affect "positional versatility" as much as ball handling. Give me a shooter that can hit from all areas of the court, inside and out, with or without his back to the basket, and if necessary, with both hands and you can have your ball handler.
Lastly, you underrate Bird's handles. He practically created the point forward position, had perhaps the greatest off-hand in NBA history, and was a very secure dribbler who didn't need flash to be effective.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender.[/QUOTE]
How come? Both were 6'9".... and both attacked the boards... You should really see some of the footage of Magic and focus on how he attacks the boards, he would run in on the defensive rebounds as fast as possible (allowed him to start the offensive break even faster and he is supposed to have the ball anyways) and on offense he would especially those first 3-4 years in the NBA attack the offensive boards all the time instead of running back to play defense.. both attacked the boards, position is no excuse here...
Also, Magic didnt even touch the PG position until around 1983, during 1980-83 Norm Nixon was the starting PG, Magic started Forward (played a la point-forward)... his season rebound average career high came during that time actually at 9.6 RPG... During those years of not starting PG he averaged between 7.7 - 9.6 rpg...
Larry Bird averaged 10-11 rpg from the get go... his career average is 10.0 rpg...
A more productive rebounder is a more productive rebounder....
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).[/QUOTE]
Bird was indeed a better rebounder. You can't use Magic playing PG and Bird SF as an excuse to why Bird's rebounding numbers are better. Like I said in the other thread, Bird played with rebounders like Parish, McHale, & Walton, Magic didn't play with any very good rebounders (Kareem, Rambis, Worthy was the frontcourt). You always saw Bird inside the post fighting players to death for rebounds, Magic wasn't as willing to battle others inside for rebounds.
Bird nearly out-rebounded Moses Malone (greatest rebounding center ever arguably) in the '81 Finals, you think Magic would ever come close to out rebounding a peak Moses Malone? In the 1984 NBA Finals, Larry Bird nearly out-rebounded Magic & Kareem by himself. Bird was just a more physical player who would sacrifice his body for a rebound.
I don't know where you are getting that Magic was a better one on one defender than Bird, both were below average in that department, I would call individual defense a wash, both were very good help/team defenders, but I might give Bird a slight edge in that department and Bird was clearly a better low post defender than Magic.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).[/QUOTE]
Leading the league in steals doesn't make someone a good defender. AI used to be among the league leaders in steals and was never a good defender. More to the point Bird made multiple All NBA defense teams and Magic never made none. Magic couldn't stay in front of many point guards such as KJ and Isiah and often never guarded points. Magic was an average defender at best and sometimes quite poor.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).[/QUOTE]
Magic was not a better passer. Bird getting 7 assists a game from the forward position was more impressive than Magic getting 11 from the point guard position.
I can play that game, too.
I always found Magic's '84 Finals fascinating. He was labeled "Tragic" in that series (yes, he missed a couple of FTs that would have ultimately won the series), but all he could do in that series was average 18.1 ppg, LEAD the Lakers in rebounding, at 7.7 rpg, was miles ahead of everyone in assists at 13.6 apg, and shot, get this... .560 from the field (Bird shot .488 and Kareem shot .481.)
In any case, since no one else has mentioned it, here was another view of Bird's post-season career...
[QUOTE]How about this from Colts18:
Quote:
Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:
1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason
1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.
1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.
1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.
1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.
1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.
1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.
1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.
1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.
1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.
1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.
1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.
1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.
So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.
With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.
Bird played in an NBA that shot about .485 in his CAREER. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .472. Which is bad enough, BUT, wait...it gets worse. He shot a CAREER .455 in his five FINALS. In fact, he shot UNDER .399 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .499...ELEVEN times (including TWO games of under .299!) His HIGH Finals series was only .488, and his LOW was .419.
And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.
Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in TWO of them, and in fact, lost out to a TEAMMATE in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the SECOND best player on the floor in TWO more ('85 and '87 Finals.)
[/QUOTE]
Nope. Bird didnt double Magic in boards.
Magic DID practically double Bird in assists, and you can get assists from ANYWHERE on the court so saying position matters as much is FOLLY considering how much Bird had the ball in his hands..
...and being a PG directing the offense being far from the basket makes it WAY harder to accumulate rebounds
Magic was 3 years younger and CLEARLY outplayed Bird in the Finals. You have NO counter for that.
[QUOTE]'80-'86 - 17.8 ppg with 54.2% FG, 60.8% TS, 54.6% eFG
'87-'90 - 22.1 ppg with 50.2% FG, 60.8% TS, and 52.2% eFG
Lower FG% but same TS% despite much more points in '87-'90
This is just regular season stats as well.
Before you discredit TS%, it just goes to show you that Magic was more aggressive at scoring and taking it to the hoop in '87-'90 and that is why his TS% remained the same despite a lower FG%. He was also an improved FT shooter from '87-'90.
[/QUOTE]
TS? Huh? How about we use Actual statistics recorded by the NBA, not some shit you and your friends use in your fantasy league.
[QUOTE]
Career it looks like the same, maybe an edge to Bird but if you point out specific and important series like Finals, Conference Finals, etc. you would see that Bird had far more poor playoff series than Magic did.
Bird was up and down in the playoffs which is why his averages are like that. Magic was consistently great in the playoffs.
I can only think of like 1-2 poor playoff series by Magic, I can think of a decent amount for Bird. [/QUOTE]
In the playoffs everything is just as important. You think these guys wouldn't be embarassed as **** losing in the first round? Every game matters. You are just being selective and picking whichever benefits your argument. Nice try.
[QUOTE]
:oldlol: It doesn't matter, Magic was still going strong and dominant from '87-'90 whereas Bird wasn't anymore. Bird was actually arguably the MVP in '88 and some argue that he should have been the MVP over Jordan but Bird played pretty poor in that post-season specifically the ECF against the Pistons.[/QUOTE]
So first you say Bird wasn't dominant anymore, and then you go on to say that he was the MVP? Interesting. Strong contradicting paragraph. Anyone can pick out one series and blame them for the loss. Here I'll play that game. LOL nice 43% shooting by Magic against the Bulls in the 91 finals!!! Choker!!!!! Also I'm not sure if you realize just how bad of a defender Magic was in those later years. You can jerk off to those offensive statistics all you want, but LA had to hide him on defense. I don't think there was one point guard he could actually guard.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Nope. Bird didnt double Magic in boards.
Magic DID practically double Bird in assists, and you can get assists from ANYWHERE on the court so saying position matters as much is FOLLY considering how much Bird had the ball in his hands..
...and being a PG directing the offense being far from the basket makes it WAY harder to accumulate rebounds
Magic was 3 years younger and CLEARLY outplayed Bird in the Finals. You have NO counter for that.[/QUOTE]
Your elementary arguments are no match:pimp:
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).[/QUOTE]
Cool so I guess Jason Kidd is a better rebounder than Pau Gasol since he gets more rebounds relative to his position.
[IMG]http://darkjournal.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/borat-not-jb.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=jlauber]...[/QUOTE]
Chamberlain
Regular Season - 30 PPG
Postseason - 22.5 PPG
His PPG dropped EVERY YEAR in the postseason.
[QUOTE=MiamiThrice]TS? Huh? How about we use Actual statistics recorded by the NBA, not some shit you and your friends use in your fantasy league.[/quote]
It is used on basketball reference and ESPN which is very credible. It is just an advanced stat because it is hard to do the calculation off of the top of your head.
[QUOTE]
So first you say Bird wasn't dominant anymore, and then you go on to say that he was the MVP? Interesting. Strong contradicting paragraph. [/QUOTE]
He was dominant in the regular season in '88 but he wasn't great in the post-season. He was easily less dominant than what he was from '84-'86 though.
Magic is ahead of Bird because Magic and Bird were close each season when Bird was better from their rookie season to '86 whereas Magic was clearly better and better than Bird by a lot from '87 to '91.
[quote]Also I'm not sure if you realize just how bad of a defender Magic was in those later years. You can jerk off to those offensive statistics all you want, but LA had to hide him on defense. I don't think there was one point guard he could actually guard.[/QUOTE]
Magic and Bird were like the same defensively. Both of them were below average man defenders but good help defenders. Bird was probably a little better but nothing significant.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]
Magic was 3 years younger and CLEARLY outplayed Bird in the Finals. You have NO counter for that.[/QUOTE]
Bird was injured.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]
Magic was 3 years younger and CLEARLY outplayed Bird in the Finals. You have NO counter for that.[/QUOTE]
It's not clear what I'm supposed to be countering. Which finals are you referring to?
[QUOTE=Champ]It's not clear what I'm supposed to be countering. Which finals are you referring to?[/QUOTE]
I'm assuming '85 when Bird played the entire postseason with a broken thumb.
85 AND 87. His numbers were also clearly better in 84 even if he made a couple of mistakes down the stretch of games.
[QUOTE=eliteballer]His numbers were also clearly better in 84 even if he made a couple of mistakes down the stretch of games.[/QUOTE]
:facepalm
And with that, I say "goodnight".
[QUOTE=eliteballer]85 AND 87. His numbers were also clearly better in 84 even if he made a couple of mistakes down the stretch of games.[/QUOTE]
Magic was a better player and he did outplay Bird in '87.
Magic also played better in '85, but then again Bird wasn't 100%.
I clearly give the edge to Bird in '84. Much better scorer, more active on the boards, and he came threw in the clutch while Magic didn't.
[B][COLOR="darkgreen"]Bird [/COLOR]was A [COLOR="DarkGreen"][U]WAY[/U] [U]BETTER DEFENDER[/U][/COLOR] Than Magic Was[/B]
[B][U]Defensive Rating [/U]
1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
1980-81 NBA 98.6 (10)
1981-82 NBA 99.4 (6)
[U][COLOR="Green"]1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)[/COLOR][/U]
1984-85 NBA 102.8 (9)
1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)
Career NBA 101.4 (61)
[B][U]NBA & ABA Yearly Playoff Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating[/U][/B]
2012 NBA Josh Smith 93.20 ATL
2011 NBA Dwight Howard 95.73 ORL
2010 NBA Dwight Howard 92.98 ORL
2009 NBA Dwight Howard 98.35 ORL
2008 NBA Tim Duncan 98.51 SAS
2007 NBA Jason Kidd 94.63 NJN
2006 NBA Alonzo Mourning 95.13 MIA
2005 NBA Ben Wallace 93.48 DET
2004 NBA Ben Wallace 83.91 DET
2003 NBA Ben Wallace 90.51 DET
2002 NBA Ben Wallace 86.41 DET
2001 NBA David Robinson* 92.42 SAS
2000 NBA David Robinson* 84.01 SAS
1999 NBA David Robinson* 87.33 SAS
1998 NBA David Robinson* 93.42 SAS
1997 NBA Alonzo Mourning 94.64 MIA
1996 NBA Scottie Pippen* 96.07 CHI
1995 NBA David Robinson* 97.53 SAS
1994 NBA Patrick Ewing* 94.34 NYK
1993 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 96.56 HOU
1992 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.35 DET
1991 NBA Scottie Pippen* 99.52 CHI
1990 NBA Bill Laimbeer 96.32 DET
1989 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.38 DET
1988 NBA Bill Laimbeer 99.51 DET
1987 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 102.24 HOU
1986 NBA Bill Walton* 100.62 BOS
1985 NBA Ralph Sampson* 97.16 HOU
1984 NBA Buck Williams 99.41 NJN
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 95.76 PHI
[COLOR="green"][U]1982 NBA Larry Bird* 94.21 BOS[/U][/COLOR]
1981 NBA Truck Robinson 94.51 PHO
[U][COLOR="green"]1980 NBA Larry Bird* 95.93 BOS[/COLOR][/U]
[U]Defensive Win Shares[/U]
[COLOR="green"]1979-80 NBA 5.6 (1) [/COLOR]
[COLOR="green"][U]1980-81 NBA 6.1 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1981-82 NBA 5.7 (2)
1982-83 NBA 5.6 (5)
[COLOR="green"][U]1983-84 NBA 5.6 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1984-85 NBA 5.2 (2)
[COLOR="green"][U]1985-86 NBA 6.2 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1986-87 NBA 4.8 (6)
Career NBA 59.0 (25)[/B]
[QUOTE=Round Mound][B][COLOR="darkgreen"]Bird [/COLOR]was A [COLOR="DarkGreen"][U]WAY[/U] [U]BETTER DEFENDER[/U][/COLOR] Than Magic Was[/B]
[B][U]Defensive Rating [/U][/B]
1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
1980-81 NBA 98.6 (10)
1981-82 NBA 99.4 (6)
[U][COLOR="Green"]1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)[/COLOR][/U]
1984-85 NBA 102.8 (9)
1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)
Career NBA 101.4 (61)
[B][U]NBA & ABA Yearly Playoff Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating[/U][/B]
2012 NBA Josh Smith 93.20 ATL
2011 NBA Dwight Howard 95.73 ORL
2010 NBA Dwight Howard 92.98 ORL
2009 NBA Dwight Howard 98.35 ORL
2008 NBA Tim Duncan 98.51 SAS
2007 NBA Jason Kidd 94.63 NJN
2006 NBA Alonzo Mourning 95.13 MIA
2005 NBA Ben Wallace 93.48 DET
2004 NBA Ben Wallace 83.91 DET
2003 NBA Ben Wallace 90.51 DET
2002 NBA Ben Wallace 86.41 DET
2001 NBA David Robinson* 92.42 SAS
2000 NBA David Robinson* 84.01 SAS
1999 NBA David Robinson* 87.33 SAS
1998 NBA David Robinson* 93.42 SAS
1997 NBA Alonzo Mourning 94.64 MIA
1996 NBA Scottie Pippen* 96.07 CHI
1995 NBA David Robinson* 97.53 SAS
1994 NBA Patrick Ewing* 94.34 NYK
1993 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 96.56 HOU
1992 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.35 DET
1991 NBA Scottie Pippen* 99.52 CHI
1990 NBA Bill Laimbeer 96.32 DET
1989 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.38 DET
1988 NBA Bill Laimbeer 99.51 DET
1987 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 102.24 HOU
1986 NBA Bill Walton* 100.62 BOS
1985 NBA Ralph Sampson* 97.16 HOU
1984 NBA Buck Williams 99.41 NJN
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 95.76 PHI
[COLOR="green"][U]1982 NBA Larry Bird* 94.21 BOS[/U][/COLOR]
1981 NBA Truck Robinson 94.51 PHO
[U][COLOR="green"]1980 NBA Larry Bird* 95.93 BOS[/COLOR][/U]
[B][U]Defensive Win Shares [/U[/B]]
[COLOR="green"]1979-80 NBA 5.6 (1) [/COLOR]
[COLOR="green"][U]1980-81 NBA 6.1 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1981-82 NBA 5.7 (2)
1982-83 NBA 5.6 (5)
[COLOR="green"][U]1983-84 NBA 5.6 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1984-85 NBA 5.2 (2)
[COLOR="green"][U]1985-86 NBA 6.2 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1986-87 NBA 4.8 (6)
Career NBA 59.0 (25[/QUOTE]
Yet another foreigner who never watched 80's ball:facepalm
[QUOTE=eliteballer]Yet another foreigner who never watched 80's ball:facepalm[/QUOTE]
:no:
[B]Bird Was Better Defensively. Fact![/B]
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]Chamberlain
Regular Season - 30 PPG
Postseason - 22.5 PPG
His PPG dropped EVERY YEAR in the postseason.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm...he absolutely SHELLED his OPPOSING centers in the vast majority of his 29 playoff series. He outrebounded them ALL (and by generally by HUGE margins...as well as ELEVATING his rebounding.)
Scoring? Yep. Wilt gets ripped for "only" averaging 34 ppg, on .468 shooting, against Russell in the '62 ECF's (all while taking a cast of clowns to a game seven, two point loss), because it came in his 50 ppg season. But wait...in his ten regular season H2H's against Russell (and a SWARMING Celtic defense which didn't have to concern themselves with the four other boobs that Wilt was shackled with)...Chamberlain could "only" average 39.7 ppg, on .471 shooting. Now, when you factor in that the regular season NBA averaged 118.8 ppg on .426 shooting, and the post-season NBA averaged 112.6 ppg on .411 shooting, ...well, it puts a much better perspective on that "decline." Oh, and incidently, Russell shot .457 against the NBA in the regular season...BUT, against Chamberlain in that seven game series? .399. Yep. .399.
Or how about a Chamberlain in the '64 post-season? In the regular season, Wilt averaged 36.9 ppg on .524 shooting, in an NBA that averaged 111 ppg on .433 shooting. However, in the POST-SEASON, the NBA averaged 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting. How about Chamberlain in that post-season? 34.7 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and on .543 shooting.
And how about this example? In the 64-65 season, after Wilt was traded to the Sixers at mid-season, he averaged 30.1 ppg, 22.3 rpg, and shot .528...in a league that averaged 110.6 ppg on .426 shooting.
He then took that 40-40 team, which had gone 34-46 the year before, thru the 48-32 Royals in the first round, and then to a game seven, one point loss against Russell's HOF-laden Celtics, that had gone 62-18, which was their best record in the Russell-era. And, in that series, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shot .555 from the floor (while holding Russell to 15.6 ppg, 25.3 rpg, and .447 shooting.) Where's the DECLINE?
Of course, Chamberlain had SIX post-seasons in which he averaged more ppg than Bird's BEST post-season, too. He had FOUR of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. Oh, and he had four post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg. And where are Bird's 50 point playoff games? Chamberlain had FOUR, THREE of which were in "must-win" games.
And how about this? In Wilt's first seven post-seasons, covering 67 games (35 of which came against Russell) he AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515. Find me ONE post-season game in which Bird accomplished that feat.
Shooting? In Wilt's SIX Finals, he shot .517, .525, .534, .560, .600, and a seven game series of .625. Bird? In his FIVE Finals, and in league's that shot .485 on average (Wilt's shot about .440 on average BTW), Bird shot .488, .484, .455, .450, and a horrible .419.
Rebounding in the post-season? Chamberlain's WORST post-season, of 20.2 rpg, blows away Bird's BEST post-season of 14.0 rpg.
Defense? Chamberlain was reducing Kareem to just awful FG%'s, and probably blocked more shots in one post-season, than Bird did in his post-season career. Wilt was arguably the second greatest defensive center in NBA HISTORY.
Yep. Wilt sure "declined" didn't he?
[QUOTE=Round Mound][B][COLOR="darkgreen"]Bird [/COLOR]was A [COLOR="DarkGreen"][U]WAY[/U] [U]BETTER DEFENDER[/U][/COLOR] Than Magic Was[/B]
[B][U]Defensive Rating [/U]
1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
1980-81 NBA 98.6 (10)
1981-82 NBA 99.4 (6)
[U][COLOR="Green"]1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)[/COLOR][/U]
1984-85 NBA 102.8 (9)
1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)
Career NBA 101.4 (61)
[B][U]NBA & ABA Yearly Playoff Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating[/U][/B]
2012 NBA Josh Smith 93.20 ATL
2011 NBA Dwight Howard 95.73 ORL
2010 NBA Dwight Howard 92.98 ORL
2009 NBA Dwight Howard 98.35 ORL
2008 NBA Tim Duncan 98.51 SAS
2007 NBA Jason Kidd 94.63 NJN
2006 NBA Alonzo Mourning 95.13 MIA
2005 NBA Ben Wallace 93.48 DET
2004 NBA Ben Wallace 83.91 DET
2003 NBA Ben Wallace 90.51 DET
2002 NBA Ben Wallace 86.41 DET
2001 NBA David Robinson* 92.42 SAS
2000 NBA David Robinson* 84.01 SAS
1999 NBA David Robinson* 87.33 SAS
1998 NBA David Robinson* 93.42 SAS
1997 NBA Alonzo Mourning 94.64 MIA
1996 NBA Scottie Pippen* 96.07 CHI
1995 NBA David Robinson* 97.53 SAS
1994 NBA Patrick Ewing* 94.34 NYK
1993 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 96.56 HOU
1992 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.35 DET
1991 NBA Scottie Pippen* 99.52 CHI
1990 NBA Bill Laimbeer 96.32 DET
1989 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.38 DET
1988 NBA Bill Laimbeer 99.51 DET
1987 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 102.24 HOU
1986 NBA Bill Walton* 100.62 BOS
1985 NBA Ralph Sampson* 97.16 HOU
1984 NBA Buck Williams 99.41 NJN
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 95.76 PHI
[COLOR="green"][U]1982 NBA Larry Bird* 94.21 BOS[/U][/COLOR]
1981 NBA Truck Robinson 94.51 PHO
[U][COLOR="green"]1980 NBA Larry Bird* 95.93 BOS[/COLOR][/U]
[U]Defensive Win Shares[/U]
[COLOR="green"]1979-80 NBA 5.6 (1) [/COLOR]
[COLOR="green"][U]1980-81 NBA 6.1 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1981-82 NBA 5.7 (2)
1982-83 NBA 5.6 (5)
[COLOR="green"][U]1983-84 NBA 5.6 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1984-85 NBA 5.2 (2)
[COLOR="green"][U]1985-86 NBA 6.2 (1) [/U][/COLOR]
1986-87 NBA 4.8 (6)
Career NBA 59.0 (25)[/B][/QUOTE]
Great post dude.
Larry Bird was a great defender in comparison to that era. People dont want to give him respect because he wouldn't hound people and he wasn't laterally quick. Guy could read the plays before they happened and this led to turnovers. His feet weren't quick, but he may have had faster hands than anyone in NBA History. Larry Bird = great defensive player. Magic was terrible on that end of the court.
Hopefully StateofMind12 reads that post and realizes that Magic was by far inferior.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]Chamberlain
Regular Season - 30 PPG
Postseason - 22.5 PPG
His PPG dropped EVERY YEAR in the postseason.[/QUOTE]
Let's compare shall we?
[QUOTE]Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.
1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.
2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.
3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, on 8-18 shooting, while Russell had a 25-25 game, and on 11-26 shooting.
4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.
5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.
6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.
7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.
8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.
9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds, on 12-28 shooting. Russell had 14 points and 26 points, on 5-11 shooting in the win.
10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.
11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game, on 13-23 shooting. Russell with a 22-21 game, on 8-19 shooting, in the loss.
12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.
13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.
14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.
15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.
16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.
17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.
18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds, on 4-6 shooting, in the win.
19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/9 FG, 25 rebounds and 1 assist. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.
20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points on 5/11 FG, 29 rebounds and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.
21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.
22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points on 12/20 FG 14 rebounds and 3 assists. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.
23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points on 4/11 FG, 26 rebounds, 11 assists and 12 blocks (unofficial quad). Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.
24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points on 11/18 FG, 27 rebounds, 6 assists and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.
25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/10 FG, 21 rebounds and 10 blocks. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.
26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.
27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.
28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points on 7/12 FG,18 rebounds and 9 assists. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.
29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.
30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points on 4/6, 31 rebounds and 8 assists. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.
31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.
32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.
33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points on 10/17 FG, 28 rebounds, 4 asissts and 8 blocks. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.
The article about this series sad that Wilt blocked Chicago from playoffs after blocking 49 shots in 7 games.
34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points on 2/2 FG, 22 rebounds, 7 assists. Thurmond had 9 points on 2/9 FG, 18 or 15 rebounds and 5 assists in 32 minutes in the loss.
35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.
That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.
[/QUOTE]
continued...
With this resume...
[QUOTE]How about this from Colts18:
Quote:
Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:
1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason
1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.
1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.
1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.
1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.
1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.
1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.
1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.
1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.
1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.
1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.
1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.
1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.
So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.
With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.
Bird played in an NBA that shot about .485 in his CAREER. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .472. Which is bad enough, BUT, wait...it gets worse. He shot a CAREER .455 in his five FINALS. In fact, he shot UNDER .399 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .499...ELEVEN times (including TWO games of under .299!) His HIGH Finals series was only .488, and his LOW was .419.
And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.
Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in TWO of them, and in fact, lost out to a TEAMMATE in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the SECOND best player on the floor in TWO more ('85 and '87 Finals.)
[/QUOTE]
Continued...
And this...
[QUOTE]The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.
Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)
Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.
In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)
And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games, while Chamberlain shot 18-33 (.545.)
The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)
And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.
Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.
That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=jlauber]With this resume...
Continued...[/QUOTE]
jlauber:
Though I respect all the data and info you continually come up with, I must say that list of Bird's playoff exploits you posted comes across as cherry-picked, and more than a bit biased in terms of its language and tone. There's simply too much of his playoff success that is ignored or passed over for the sake of argument, while other excerpts strike me as being flat-out wrong.
For starters, I'll point to '81 Finals, where your post stated that Bird played poorly, which simply isn't accurate. Yes, he did shoot poorly, but he also did so many other things during that series to help his team win, while coming through at key moments -- especially down the stretch -- yet there's no mention of this. Why?
You could even argue that he should've been awarded Finals MVP that year.