If Lebron continues to play at this level

[QUOTE=ZaaaaaH]Young Buck let me teach you something. Bird is ONE of the [B]Elitist[/B][/QUOTE]
Stopped reading.



[IMG]http://www.fashioneggs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Billy-Zane-Tux.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Hands of Iron]Key point here, and roughly makes up for the possession argument. FGA's are also FGA's last time I checked. What's funny too is that the Celtics actually played at a pace that registered in the bottom half of the league throughout Bird's peak (84-88).

Also, where are all of the 50/40/90 seasons on 25+ PPG (Bird's volume was actually 28 and 30 respectively) in this super-easy shooting era? Far as I know, he's the only player to have a season such as that in NBA history. Twice, in consecutive years no less. Over his peak span (roughly five seasons or 390 games) he held down 27/10/7 on 50/40/90.

[B]Then there's the actual skill sets and abilities to be measured[/B].[/QUOTE]

Speaking of which: Lebron is probably amongst the top three freak athletes to ever hit the league, even relative to era. The fact that some unathletic white boy has a considerable case over him should tell you all you need to know in regards to skills. How the hell else did he do it? :oldlol: Arguably Numero Uno there. :applause:

So many Kobe stans in a thread titled 'If Lebron continues to play at this level'


One word...



Insecurity.

[QUOTE=funnystuff]So many Kobe stans in a thread titled 'If Lebron continues to play at this level'


One word...



Insecurity.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.brain-magazine.com/images/stories/PAGE_PUTE_6/tom-cruise-gayness.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Stopped reading.



[IMG]http://www.fashioneggs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Billy-Zane-Tux.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]


Im glad.

Dont want some fagggot who post up homosexual pictuers of other guys to start yappin it up.

Again You are one homo who loves guy pictuers on the net.

[QUOTE=NumberSix][IMG]http://www.brain-magazine.com/images/stories/PAGE_PUTE_6/tom-cruise-gayness.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]


Another one ...

[QUOTE=ZaaaaaH]Im glad.

Dont want some fagggot who post up homosexual pictuers of other guys to start yappin it up.

Again You are one homo who loves guy pictuers on the net.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://funny-pictures-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/funny-pictures/Johnny-depp.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=chips93]why does it matter how their pace compared to other teams in the 80s, we are comparing bird to lebron, so how the celtics pace compares to other teams in the 80s is irrelevant. how you thought it was relevant is beyond me.

all of lebron's teams have played pretty close to a pace of 90 possessions per game, while bird's teams in the period you stipulated had an average pace of 106 possessions per game

this is a very significant difference[/QUOTE]

I didn't consider it relevant necessarily in comparison to Lebron but rather in Bird's individual case as people would have you believe his teams we're leading the charge of the fast-paced 80s and all of his points were in transition as a result of fastbreaks or what not. He was an elite scorer in the half court and did the majority of his work there.

Celtics:

1983-84: 99.7
1984-85: 101.6
1985-86: 101.2
1986-87: 98.6
1987-88: 97.9

Cavs/Heat:

2007-08: 90.2
2008-09: 88.7
2009-10: 91.4
2010-11: 90.9
2011-12: 91.2

Sure, there's a difference but then again Bird wasn't nearly as ball dominant either. There's certainly an argument to made in Lebron's favor in terms of the percentages, but to just mention pace and call it case closed is pretty ridiculous.

[QUOTE]this hallowed 40/50/90 thing is pretty silly to me.

bird took far less threes, and far less free throws than bron. so while bird may appear more efficeint because he has those elite 50/40/90 numbers, the fact that lebron takes more free throws, and more threes, narrows the gap in efficeincy

bird shoots better from all three spots, but lebron takes more, of the better shots

cases like this are exactly why TS% is such a good stat to use.

another interesting case is daquan cook and ray allen, in 2010. ray shot better from the freethrow line, from 3, and from the field. but cook had a higher TS% because he took more 3s, and more FTs[/QUOTE]

You can call it hallowed, I call it unique. Do you honestly consider it a coincidence nobody else in NBA history has maintained those percentages on a volume of 25+ PPG over a season (with only Dirk in his MVP year achieving it by rounding his 24.6), much less 28 and 30? It's a pretty solid achievement imo.

[QUOTE=NumberSix][IMG]http://funny-pictures-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/funny-pictures/Johnny-depp.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]


Dont get it ....

Must be some fagggot jokes

[QUOTE=Hands of Iron]

You can call it hallowed, I call it unique. Do you honestly consider it a coincidence nobody else in NBA history has maintained those percentages on a volume of 25+ PPG over a season (with only Dirk in his MVP year achieving it by rounding his 24.6), much less 28 and 30? It's a pretty solid achievement imo.

[/QUOTE]

im not saying that it isnt a great achievement, it really is. im just saying that TS% is a better indicator of shooting effieciency that looking at FG%, FT%, and 3pt%

[QUOTE=chips93]im not saying that it isnt a great achievement, it really is. im just saying that TS% is a better indicator of shooting effieciency that looking at FG%, FT%, and 3pt%[/QUOTE]

Ah, fair enough. I really just more or less responded to what OldSchoolBBall said in regards to Bird by expanding upon his defense and fleshing out some of his accomplishments more than trying to say "Bird's better because of this..." -- I think Lebron would actually get the edge in terms of production everything considered, while I do without hesistation regard Bird as the more skilled player. Visually from watching games as well as the fact that there's no way he could be in this conversation if he weren't, as there was quite a lot left to be desired from an athletic standpoint. Lebron is one of the GOAT athletes and GOAT finishers at the rim. That's a lethal combination. Just look at how much more efficient of a scorer Shaq was than Hakeem despite the difference in skills. That isn't to say Lebron doesn't have skills or his all-around game hasn't improved.

[B][U]Lets Anaylze Them[/U]

[COLOR="Blue"]Lebron is a Better Pure Scorer (more versatile scorer)

Lebron is a Better Slasher and Driver (better ballhandler, faster, quicker and more potent)

Lebron is a Better Dunker and Finisher at The Rim (stronger upper torso more power)

Lebron is a Better Defender on SFs NOT PFs (*Bird had The Highest DRT and DWS for a SF in the 80s)

Lebron is a Better Ballhandler and Offense Creator (the best ever as an open court player IMO)

Lebron is a Better Full Court Player (athletic abilities)[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]Bird Was Was Better Pure Shooter (far range, close range, mid range etc)

Bird Was a Better Rebounder (Yes he average 15.3 RPG vs Moses in the 1981 Finals)

Bird was a Better Pure Passer (just watch the videos especially at half court)

Bird was Better Low Post Defender on PFs (See*)

Bird was Better Team Defender (would get many steals since today many teams play zone d)

Bird was Better 3-Point Shooter

Bird was A Better Post Player and Half Court Player (though Lebron has improoved)

Bird had The Better B-Ball IQ and Fundamentals (more Crafty and Skilled at Everything but Ballhandling)[/COLOR]

I think They Are Close...I Think Both of Them are The Best SFs Ever but Different Style of Play. One is a SG/SF/PF Hybrid The Other is a Point-Forward

In the Next 5-7 Years Lebron has Chance to Be the Best SF Ever[/B]

[QUOTE=BruceLeeBowen]until he's 31, will you ish poster consider him better than Bird? Best SF of all time?
Imo right now it can already be argued, The only thing thats keeping him from getting that title are accolades.[/QUOTE]
no, it CAN'T be argued... except by the young ignorant masses of ISH.

what is the point of this thread when bird said lebron is better than him

[QUOTE=LeBird]Was his first year, when he was about 23; turning around the Celtics from the 2nd worst team to the best record in the league; and coming 4th in MVP voting IIRC; making All-NBA first team and Rookie team.

And your point is ridiculous; by what measure is Bird a scorer and Lebron isn't?[/QUOTE]
In his first year Bird wasn't ready for the playoffs and I did stress real big super year. It took awhile before Bird was better than Maxwell in the playoffs. Its very different if the majority of the people here knew who Maxwell was. If Lebron had that type of year after he was 20 people would wonder what was wrong with him.

On to your second point, people actually don't call Lebron a scorer cause its not what he sets out to do when he's on the court. On this board the top three scorers are Durant, Kobe and Wade over the last three years. If Lebron is hot he doesn't try to score the whole game and will more than likely pass more. I guess that's the distinction. Greg Anthony just said last week that Lebron isn't considered a scorer because that's not what he does best.

[QUOTE=coin24]A whole new dimension? He barreled in for layups, Okc made no adjustments..
[B]Not sure what series you were watching[/B]:confusedshrug:
Not hating on bron, it's great that he finally won something, but ppl claiming he's now great in the post/clutch are kidding themselves..[/QUOTE]

Funny, I never said posting up but you knew right away what I was talking about. So we must have been watching the same series. :confusedshrug:
I never said he did it great either but you went there, so these things are obviously on your mind while they weren't on mine.

If a player was tops in the league in fourth quarter scoring, and top five over a five year span in percentage in close games - you clutch. If you have some of the best games in recent playoff history - you clutch. If you scored 26 of your teams last points on a stellar defensive team and win, you clutch. No player was close to being clutch all the time.

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B][U]Lets Anaylze Them[/U]

[COLOR="Blue"]Lebron is a Better Pure Scorer (more versatile scorer)

Lebron is a Better Slasher and Driver (better ballhandler, faster, quicker and more potent)

Lebron is a Better Dunker and Finisher at The Rim (stronger upper torso more power)

Lebron is a Better Defender on SFs NOT PFs (*Bird had The Highest DRT and DWS for a SF in the 80s)

Lebron is a Better Ballhandler and Offense Creator (the best ever as an open court player IMO)

Lebron is a Better Full Court Player (athletic abilities)[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]Bird Was Was Better Pure Shooter (far range, close range, mid range etc)

Bird Was a Better Rebounder (Yes he average 15.3 RPG vs Moses in the 1981 Finals)

Bird was a Better Pure Passer (just watch the videos especially at half court)

Bird was Better Low Post Defender on PFs (See*)

Bird was Better Team Defender (would get many steals since today many teams play zone d)

Bird was Better 3-Point Shooter

Bird was A Better Post Player and Half Court Player (though Lebron has improoved)

Bird had The Better B-Ball IQ and Fundamentals (more Crafty and Skilled at Everything but Ballhandling)[/COLOR]

I think They Are Close...I Think Both of Them are The Best SFs Ever but Different Style of Play. One is a SG/SF/PF Hybrid The Other is a Point-Forward

In the Next 5-7 Years Lebron has Chance to Be the Best SF Ever[/B][/QUOTE]
LOL, you broke defender up three times in favor of Bird. Please go on youtube and show me where Bird locked down anybody. He wasn't this great defender at all. He might have been adequate at best. PF's back then rarely scored anyway.

When Kurt Rambis came out the game and AC Green came in Bird whole game was affected by AC Green because he couldn't keep up with him. When real powerforwards played Mchale guarded Ralph Sampson, Otis Thorpe, Buck Williams, Dr J. So while Bird was avoiding the better foward 95% of the time, Lebron is guarding the best scorer on the other team 85% of the time. Dennis Johnson used to guard Barkley in a lot of those Philly matchups, which is just plain crazy. Lebron would have been guarding the hotter between Dr J and Barkley - Bird didn't guard either of the Forwards. Its not even a conversation, to be honest.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]In his first year Bird wasn't ready for the playoffs and I did stress real big super year. It took awhile before Bird was better than Maxwell in the playoffs. Its very different if the majority of the people here knew who Maxwell was. If Lebron had that type of year after he was 20 people would wonder what was wrong with him.[/quote]

Then you're really narrowing the definition of what a really big year is, and you did it by arbitrary stat-lines. Bird's first year was a huge year. The number of players who have had that affect on a team in the NBA can be counted on one hand.

[quote]On to your second point, people actually don't call Lebron a scorer cause its not what he sets out to do when he's on the court. On this board the top three scorers are Durant, Kobe and Wade over the last three years. If Lebron is hot he doesn't try to score the whole game and will more than likely pass more. I guess that's the distinction. Greg Anthony just said last week that Lebron isn't considered a scorer because that's not what he does best.[/QUOTE]

That's ironic because that describes Bird. Even though he is probably the greatest shooter of all time, he didn't set out to score the most or lead the league in ppgs. He was a past-first player and set out for the high percentage play as much as possible. In the same vein, Bird could be the best rebounder, passer or scorer on the team whenever the occasion arose - and 2/3 to a far higher level than Lebron. In this respect they're the same; that you can't just say "x is a scorer".

This level until he is 31? As in get MVP, FMVP, Championship until he is 31... which is 4 years from now? Which means 4 more MVPs, 4 more FMVPs, 4 more Championships?

Which means his career will look something like:

7 x MVP
5 x FMVP
5 x Championships
12 x NBA All-Star
10 x 1st All-NBA
8 x 1st All-Defensive
ROTY
and so on...

That is enough not only to pass freakin Bird, but Michael Jordan and become GOAT....

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B][U]Lets Anaylze Them[/U]

[COLOR="Blue"]Lebron is a Better Pure Scorer (more versatile scorer)

Lebron is a Better Slasher and Driver (better ballhandler, faster, quicker and more potent)

Lebron is a Better Dunker and Finisher at The Rim (stronger upper torso more power)

Lebron is a Better Defender on PGs, SGs, SFs, PFs, Cs, he is alongside Pippen the most versatile defender in NBA history....

Lebron is a Better versatile player, he could play and even dominate up to 4-5 positions playing them traditionally

Lebron is a Better Ballhandler and Offense Creator (the best ever as an open court player IMO)

Lebron is a Better Full Court Player (athletic abilities)

Lebron is a Better Pure Passer (just watch the stats, records, milestones, games, videos.. although Bird is right behind Lebron in that area amongst SFs or any non-PGs)

Lebron is a Better Interior/Perimeter/Help/Team Defender[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]Bird Was a Better Pure Shooter no question (far range, close range, mid range, FT etc, maybe the best shooter ever afterall)

Bird Was a Better Rebounder (or at least he attacked the boards more where as Lebron would instead more like leak out for a breakaway on the defensive boards and run first back to play defense/chasedown on offensive boards.)

Bird was a Better Post Player (Lebron has improved and might improve even more than Bird in that area very soon though).[/b]
[/COLOR]
[/QUOTE]

Fixed...


Mind you, Bird was my favorite player of all time alongside Reggie, i have around 150-200 games with him.... but i am not simpleminded, i have watched every single game of Lebron and i can tell you with full comfort that Lebron is somewhat of a better overall individual player no matter how you twist and turn it... Bird will tell you the same (and he does, all the time, hell he even said Lebron will end up GOAT)...

All-time rankings are more about accolades rather than Individual talent... if that wasnt the case then Wilt Chamberlain or Oscar Robertson would have been GOATs

Lebron is a better passer than Bird? You're taking the piss now - especially from a so-called Bird fan. And only 'somewhat' better rebounder? :wtf:

[QUOTE=LeBird]Lebron is a better passer than Bird? You're taking the piss now - especially from a so-called Bird fan.[/QUOTE]

He is man.....

What criteria do you want to go after? Assist totals, Assist averages, pure passing arsenal/ability, court vision, records, milestones..... Try me... i got all those facts and NONE favor Larry Bird...

[QUOTE=pauk]He is man.....

What criteria do you want to go after? Assist totals, Assist averages, pure passing arsenal/ability, court vision, records, milestones..... Try me... i got all those facts and NONE favor Larry Bird...[/QUOTE]

:facepalm . The only reason Lebron comes close to Bird in terms of passing aggregates/averages is because he is much more ball dominant and plays half the game as a makeshift PG. Bird as a forward, a far less ball dominant player, averages almost the same. Bird had a far wider range of passing and his vision is really only matched by Magic. This is one area where they're on different tiers and the stats you cite only serve to hide the contextual differences.

I thought bird himself said lebron is better than him.Why even argue this much. Even though their offensive production is very similar lebron ability to break down the entire defenses and draw fouls and his defensive prowessand versatiliy and physical and athletic abilities puts him over bird.Though he has to win more accolades to become the GOAT SF of all time.

[QUOTE=LeBird]:facepalm . The only reason Lebron comes close to Bird in terms of passing aggregates/averages is because he is much more ball dominant and plays half the game as a makeshift PG. Bird as a forward, a far less ball dominant player, averages almost the same. Bird had a far wider range of passing and his vision is really only matched by Magic. This is one area where they're on different tiers and the stats you cite only serve to hide the contextual differences.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but he's got 150-200 Bird games. :lol :(

if he continues at this level for the next years then yes you can make a case for him.....but that's IF......

idk how anyone can truly not see his potential, even if they are a lebron hater...

[QUOTE=alleykat]if he continues at this level for the next years then yes you can make a case for him.....but that's IF......

idk how anyone can truly not see his potential, even if they are a lebron hater...[/QUOTE]
Yeah 'm a huge huge fan of "[B]PRIME[SIZE="2"][/SIZE][/B]" kobe but if Lebron continues to play at this level and wins a couple more 'ships as the lead dog he'll easily surpass kobe, shaq, duncan even bird. Hes only 27 ffs.

Only 27, but with nine seasons in the league already and still heavily dependent on his athleticism.

[QUOTE=Hands of Iron]Only 27, but with nine seasons in the league already and still heavily dependent on his athleticism.[/QUOTE]
Lebron is one of the two best passing SF's ever. He can play more positions offensively than any SF which is the most versatile position to begin with. He also has one of the best handles for a guy his size. Among the high scorers he has the best judgement of when to pass or shoot perhaps ever in the game. He also has a great mix of inside shots, outside shots and hits them all at good percentages which is one of the best skills you can have in basketball. He's also one of the best rebounders at his position. He can play more positions than anybody in the game because his other fundamentals are great. His court awareness is among the best in the current game. Point Forward is the most skilled position in the NBA.

He's much more than his athleticism.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Lebron is one of the two best passing SF's ever. He can play more positions offensively than any SF which is the most versatile position to begin with. He also has one of the best handles for a guy his size. Among the high scorers he has the best judgement of when to pass or shoot perhaps ever in the game. He also has a great mix of inside shots, outside shots and hits them all at good percentages which is one of the best skills you can have in basketball. He's also one of the best rebounders at his position. He can play more positions than anybody in the game because his other fundamentals are great. His court awareness is among the best in the current game. Point Forward is the most skilled position in the NBA.

He's much more than his athleticism.[/QUOTE]

I'm talking about playing at the current GOAT level he's at and has been since circa '09, not being effective or even amongst the best in the league. Will be interesting to see how hungry he stays after getting over the hump and shutting up a lot of his critics.

[QUOTE=pauk]This level until he is 31? As in get MVP, FMVP, Championship until he is 31... which is 4 years from now? Which means 4 more MVPs, 4 more FMVPs, 4 more Championships?

Which means his career will look something like:

7 x MVP
5 x FMVP
5 x Championships
12 x NBA All-Star
10 x 1st All-NBA
8 x 1st All-Defensive
ROTY
and so on...

That is enough not only to pass freakin Bird, but Michael Jordan and become GOAT....[/QUOTE]

No it's not.

[QUOTE=Hands of Iron]I'm talking about playing at the current GOAT level he's at and has been since circa '09, not being effective or even amongst the best in the league. Will be interesting to see how hungry he stays after getting over the hump and shutting up a lot of his critics.[/QUOTE]
True

[QUOTE=Pointguard]True[/QUOTE]

Make no mistake about it, I'm not rooting against the guy simply because Bird is my dude. That's childish. Larry Bird won't cease being an All-Time Great because of what anybody else does. It took long enough for somebody to come along and match a lot of his unique qualities and all-around elite game and it took an athlete of Lebron's caliber. So if he puts up 35/9/7 on 50+% in the next couple post-seasons and leads the Heat to more titles I'll enjoy watching it.

It's definitely not going to be easy to maintain and it never is, even if you're 110% all in. The Thunder have their core and continually gain experience, the Lakers have made moves that could eat up and prevent Lebron from capitalizing on what he's started, preventing him from additional titles and accolades while at his peak a lot in the same way Magic and the 80s Lakers did to Bird. Not to mentiom having the early 80s 76ers and late 80s Pistons to deal with.

[QUOTE=LeBird]That's ironic because that describes Bird. Even though he is probably the greatest shooter of all time, he didn't set out to score the most or lead the league in ppgs. He was a past-first player and set out for the high percentage play as much as possible. In the same vein, Bird could be the best rebounder, [B]passer or scorer on the team whenever the occasion arose - and 2/3 to a far higher level than Lebron[/B]. In this respect they're the same; that you can't just say "x is a scorer".[/QUOTE]

I do agree Bird was a whatever you need player moreso than a scorer as well. My bad on that.

Lebron play's point forward so his set up situation is perhaps more inherent in his game. Lebron has lead his team in more categories as much as any player since the 70's and this is before his prime. And lately he's been the best defender around as well. Bird was great in being able to lead his team in these categories but to suggest that he's had more years as the guy on his team to lead his team in a lot of categories he's not on Lebron level in that way.

Bird's major advantage over Lebron is that he's a shooter/scorer and rebounder. Bird rarely was as prolific as Lebron scoring and passing wise (playoffs or regular season already) so a lot of weight has to be put on Bird being a scorer/shooter and rebounder if the comparison evens out. So there is more weight on Bird to be a scorer then it is for Lebron is what I'm saying.

IIRC, only Pippen and Bird (Bird more times than Pippen) have led his team in several factors. Lebron is also versatile like that.

As I said to another poster: you're looking at it the wrong way. Lebron, both in Cleveland and in Miami, carries the ball a hell of a lot. He basically plays point guard for many plays. That gives him a big advantage in terms of accumulating assists (aggregate or average) so sheer numbers doesn't tell the story. Bird played SF, but a lot of the time was more a PF. He didn't carry the ball like Lebron, or as often as Lebron, and the fact that their assist average is so similar is a testament to his vision - he is essentially getting the same number of assists although carrying the ball far less. Another thing that doesn't get counted is that Bird often made the decisive pass that led to an easy assist for someone else. He wouldn't get the assist in his stats, but his vision created the basket.

That's as far as numbers go; as far as actual skills go: Lebron does not touch Bird in terms of vision. Just watch old videos of Bird and look at Lebron. Bird's basketball IQ is in a different world to Lebron. Look at the kinds of assists he gives, and how he gives them. What you're doing simply looking at numbers and coming up with a conclusion. It's like saying Jordan was as good of a passer as Bird - just because their assist tallies are similar. But for the same reasons as the above, Jordan isn't near Bird (nor Magic) when it comes to passing the ball.

Don't get me wrong, my username is LeBird for a reason. I think ability-wise Lebron is in the top tier of players ever. I think he is a fantastic combination of skills and physical prowess. But when it comes to fundamentals he doesn't touch Bird, and passing is one of the few things that have little to do with how athletic you are.

Here is a fantastic video giving you a glimpse of the brilliance of his passing.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhnRtgBGMl4[/url]

They say the league is more physical now, but in terms of technical brilliance you just don't see stuff like the above anymore (or at least consistently from players).

[QUOTE=ripthekik]lebron was also a better choker, as we all witnessed in the 2011 finals:bowdown:

[IMG]http://mavsmag.com/redirk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/258027_522846740410_162900200_30684324_6201276_o-500x373.jpg[/IMG]

the king:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:[/QUOTE]

:roll:

[QUOTE=LeBird]He basically plays point guard for many plays. That gives him a big advantage in terms of accumulating assists (aggregate or average) so sheer numbers doesn't tell the story.[/quote]

I've never really understood this argument. LeBron is ball dominant(or was, he's certainly NOT ball-dominant as a Heat) because he CAN be. He has the athleticism and dribbling ability for it. Bird did not. You wouldn't want him dribbling behind the 3pt line, trying to create possession-after-possession. He had to perfect his off-ball, triple-threat and post game to overcome his limited athleticism. Dribbling the ball more would have HURT his production, not help.

Not that I consider LeBron a superior passer to Bird, but his success in posting high assist numbers on Team USA over the years is enough testament to his passing prowess. He doesn't need to dominate the ball to be a high APG guy. He has also averaged 6.6 apg the last 2 seasons while sharing the ball with Wade. That's plenty impressive.

As far as the thread's concerned, I don't think Bird ever impacted the game at the level '09 and '10 LeBron did. LeBron's an equivalent offensive player while being significantly better defensively. He also has better numbers in both forms of the game. Does anyone think Bird could lead those Cavalier teams to back-to-back 60+ wins? I sure as heck can't, but I can certainly see LeBron matching Bird's success in Boston.

When it comes to Bird and Bron, they are actually very similar and yet very different. If u look at the stat sheet,their numbers are damn similar. Bird's boards are a bit higher because he played PF more often than Bron. I think in terms of passing vision, Bird and Bron are a tie. But Bron has point guard type handle and pace which gives him a unique twist over Bird. But from a stationery positon or one to two dribble scenario, Bird is as good of a passer as anybody EVER! It takes guys with PG type handle and pace like a Bron, Magic, Stockton, etc. to have a slight edge on Bird.

Peak value wise is a tossup between these two. But for me, I will narrowly lean to Bron because of the defensive versatility aspect. But that wasn't always the case and I would have went with Bird peak value wise 2 or 3 years ago. And to be frank, Bron has a great chance to pass LB on the GOAT SF list sooner than later. It won't take five years most likely. Im thinking as soon as a couple of years. Gotta realize Bron is entering his tenth year in the L while Bird played 13 seasons. It's EASILY fair game to compare a 10th year player to a 13 year career. Especially when it's a young stud as decorated as Bron.