#11 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Derrick Rose has an MVP and a ROTY. Isiah Thomas has neither.


Derrick Rose must be better than Isiah Thomas, using your logic.[/QUOTE]

Whoa!! How is that using my logic!!!? :oldlol:

Isiah Thomas has 2 championships and 1 FMVP (which Rose has neither of and which are more significant accomplishments in Isiahs context being the man of his team)... so no, that is not using my logic... the 1 MVP he has is not enough to overcome that...

But Lebron? He has it all compared to the likes of Moses...

My logic: Kobe has more accomplishments, therefore Kobe > Oscar
Your logic: Oscar has better stats, therefore Oscar > Kobe

Thats more closer to my and your logic...

Oscar

LeBron James

[QUOTE=RRR3]Like JLaubs says, stop giving West a pass for losing in the finals so many times when you don't give one to Wilt :no:[/QUOTE]

Are you kidding?

From '60 - '65, I do not blame Wilt for ANY of his losses in the post season. I give Wilt a big fat 6 year 'pass'. His teams were simply not as good as the Celtics. I don't give him enough praise for his '62 and '64 series against them. To take a pretty average supporting cast all the way to a game 7 against a loaded Boston team at the height of their powers is more than impressive. And his '64 Finals....He gave Russell the worst spanking of his career. I don't know the exact numbers, or what exactly happened to Russ (Injury? I'll have to find that out), but I do know that it wasn't pretty. Even though the Warriors lost 4-1, I would still have given the Finals MVP to Wilt.

I have repeatedly said over and over again: His '68 - '70 stretch is what I cannot simply forgive and forget. He was really poor in games 6 & 7 of both the '68 ECFs and the '69 Finals. He had AMPLE opportunity to win 2/3 more rings, and solidify himself as the greatest player of all time. He FAILED. I also think he chucked away a great chance at a title in '66, too. He switched to 'Russell mode' a season too late.


West was far from the perfect player that I make him out to be sometimes :oldlol: Not a good rebounder, not a GREAT leader (I don't think he was vocal or communicative enough), hugely injury prone (He seemingly couldn't go a full series without spraining an ankle, pulling a hamstring, hurting a hand etc).

The reason I call West 'unlucky', and abstain from granting Wilt the same courtesy, is because 1. Wilt was a much more talented all round player than West. 2. More often than not, West was great when he needed to be.....

-- The must-win game 5 of the '66 Finals (It was a must-win because the Lakers lost game 4 despite West putting up a 45/4/10 on 19/31 shooting). He hit a go-ahead/game winning jumper.
-- The must-win game 6 of the '66 Finals. Three crucial shots in crunch time.
-- The do-or-die game 7 in the '69 Finals. 42/13/12, including single handily bringing the Lakers back into it in the 4th as Wilt and Bread Kolff fueded on the bench.
--Game 2 of the '70 Finals. The game winning free throws to avoid going down 0-2.
-- Game 4 of the '70 Finals. Hitting his last 8 shots, including 6 points in the OT, to avoid going down 3-1.

His 2 main blemishes are the '66 Finals game 7 (Only 2 FGs in the first half as Boston romped away with it. To be fair Baylor only scored 2 points in the 1st half) and the '70 Finals game 7 (Frazier outplayed him in the first half as the Knicks romped away with it. West was playing with a badly jammed thumb). Other than that, West was really good.


Without the Wilt/Breda Kolff fued in '69 and Wilt shredding his knee in '70 West almost certainly would have finished his career with 3 rings and 2 FMVPs.

Ultimately, Wilt >>>> West, and no one will convince me otherwise, including myself :D

big mo

LeBron

[QUOTE=oolalaa]Are you kidding?

From '60 - '65, I do not blame Wilt for ANY of his losses in the post season. I give Wilt a big fat 6 year 'pass'. His teams were simply not as good as the Celtics. I don't give him enough praise for his '62 and '64 series against them. To take a pretty average supporting cast all the way to a game 7 against a loaded Boston team at the height of their powers is more than impressive. And his '64 Finals....He gave Russell the worst spanking of his career. I don't know the exact numbers, or what exactly happened to Russ (Injury? I'll have to find that out), but I do know that it wasn't pretty. Even though the Warriors lost 4-1, I would still have given the Finals MVP to Wilt.

I have repeatedly said over and over again: His '68 - '70 stretch is what I cannot simply forgive and forget. He was really poor in games 6 & 7 of both the '68 ECFs and the '69 Finals. He had AMPLE opportunity to win 2/3 more rings, and solidify himself as the greatest player of all time. He FAILED. I also think he chucked away a great chance at a title in '66, too. He switched to 'Russell mode' a season too late.


West was far from the perfect player that I make him out to be sometimes :oldlol: Not a good rebounder, not a GREAT leader (I don't think he was vocal or communicative enough), hugely injury prone (He seemingly couldn't go a full series without spraining an ankle, pulling a hamstring, hurting a hand etc).

The reason I call West 'unlucky', and abstain from granting Wilt the same courtesy, is because 1. Wilt was a much more talented all round player than West. 2. More often than not, West was great when he needed to be.....

-- The must-win game 5 of the '66 Finals (It was a must-win because the Lakers lost game 4 despite West putting up a 45/4/10 on 19/31 shooting). He hit a go-ahead/game winning jumper.
-- The must-win game 6 of the '66 Finals. Three crucial shots in crunch time.
-- The do-or-die game 7 in the '69 Finals. 42/13/12, including single handily bringing the Lakers back into it in the 4th as Wilt and Bread Kolff fueded on the bench.
--Game 2 of the '70 Finals. The game winning free throws to avoid going down 0-2.
-- Game 4 of the '70 Finals. Hitting his last 8 shots, including 6 in the OT, to avoid going down 3-1.

His 2 main blemishes are the '66 Finals game 7 (Only 2 FGs in the first half as Boston romped away with it. To be fair Baylor only scored 2 points in the 1st half) and the '70 Finals game 7 (Frazier outplayed him in the first half as the Knicks romped away with it. West was playing with a badly jammed thumb). Other than that, West was really good.


Without the Wilt/Breda Kolff fued in '69 and Wilt shredding his knee in '70 West almost certainly would have finished his career with 3 rings and 2 FMVPs.

Ultimately, Wilt >>>> West, and it's not that close.[/QUOTE]


oolalaa, what is your top 10 list like?

Adam Morrison. This list is already a joke :/

[QUOTE=Heilige]oolalaa, what is your top 10 list like?[/QUOTE]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Magic Johnson

4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Wilt Chamberlain

7. Tim Duncan
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Jerry West
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Hakeem Olajuwon

That's my top 11. Jordan is pretty set as my number 1. I would certainly entertain arguments for Russ and Magic to be over him, but they wouldn't be that hard to tear apart.

Kareem has NO case for GOAT whatsoever. Not after his inexcusable lack of team success in the NBAs weakest ever decade (Post 50s). His amazing longevity cannot be completely ignored though.

West over Kobe? Like I've said, despite what their respective ring totals indicate, West was a MUCH better Finals performer. It's basically a toss-up, but that's why I give the edge to West. Oh, and I also think Kobe is the most overrated 'clutch' performer in NBA history. :oldlol: With that being said, Kobe definitely could ened up in the top 7, maybe even as high as #4, if he holds off father time for a few more years....

Oscar Robertson

Moses.

at people choosing Lebron..:facepalm

[QUOTE=pauk]Love how BlackVVaves refuses to detail why he continues to use awards to compare Kobe to players such as Oscar or West [b]when he just voted a less awarded player over Lebron[/b]

You just have to throw in these delusional thoughts in your brain just to feel better about your blinded Lebron hatred huh?[/QUOTE]

Go ahead and find me a post of mine that uses awards to compare Kobe to anyone outside of MVP and FMVP. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Pauk, you're sad man. No amount of lying can ever cover up your agenda.

Oh, and by the way, I voted Duncan over Kobe at #7 and #8. So much for my delusion, huh? :roll:

[QUOTE=BlackVVaves]Go ahead and find me a post of mine that uses awards to compare Kobe to anyone outside of MVP and FMVP. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Pauk, you're sad man. No amount of lying can ever cover up your agenda.

Oh, and by the way, I voted Duncan over Kobe at #7 and #8. So much for my delusion, huh? :roll:[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:

What is the current tally? Without adding them up I am pretty sure that LeBron is in the lead at this point. Pretty impressive for a 27 year old.

LeBron

So far if i am not mistaken 27 votes for lebron of course owner of this thread will reveal the results probably later around evening

Oscar

[QUOTE=BlackVVaves]Go ahead and find me a post of mine that uses awards to compare Kobe to anyone outside of MVP and FMVP. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Pauk, you're sad man. No amount of lying can ever cover up your agenda.

Oh, and by the way, I voted Duncan over Kobe at #7 and #8. So much for my delusion, huh? :roll:[/QUOTE]

Lying? What did i lie about? You just voted a less accomplished player over Lebron didnt you? Thats the only thing i touched.... and its fine, its your opinion, i just showed you with facts its a stupid opinion while you retaliated with insults instead of proving to me/us with factual proof to why your opinion is as it is, but its your opinion, so what the hell...

[QUOTE=KOBE143]at people choosing Lebron..:facepalm[/QUOTE]

You hate that dont you... :rolleyes:
Put your Kobetardism aside for once and respect the game of basketball... Lebron has accomplished more than Moses, West and Oscar...

[QUOTE=pauk]You hate that dont you... :rolleyes:
Put your Kobetardism aside for once and respect the game of basketball... Lebron has accomplished more than Moses, West and Oscar...[/QUOTE]
You're the biggest homer on this site, you have no reason to talk about someone else.

[QUOTE=pauk]......................Lebron............Oscar..............West..........
MVP...................3...................1....................0..............
FMVP..................1..................0....................1...............
CHAMP...............1(the man).....1(sidekick)......1(sidekick)..
ROTY................Yes................Yes.................No.............
DPOY..............RunnerUp.........No..................No.............
1st All-NBA.........6...................9...................10.............
1st All-Def..........4...................0....................4..............
All-Star MVP........2...................3...................1..............
All-Star..............8...................12.................14..............
POTM................20..................0...................0...............
Best Player?.......Yes..............Never.............Never...........[/QUOTE]


So if you're going to count when Lebron was a runner up, don't you think you should count that for everybody else?

[QUOTE=pauk]You hate that dont you... :rolleyes:
Put your Kobetardism aside for once and respect the game of basketball... Lebron has accomplished more than Moses, West and Oscar...[/QUOTE]
Pauk, you're my homeboy, but you need to relax a bit, this ranking doesn't mean anything in the long run. LeBron will end up where he ends up regardless of what people think. :cheers:

[QUOTE=pauk]............................Lebron..........Moses.......
MVP..........................3.................3...........
FMVP........................1..................1..........
CHAMP......................1.................1...........
ROTY.......................Yes..............No..........
DPOY........................0.................0...........
1st All-NBA................6.................4...........
1st All-Def.................4.................1...........
All-Star.....................8................12...........
All-Star MVP..............2.................0............
POTM.......................20................4............
Best Player?.............Yes.............Never........

Do the right thing fellas............[/QUOTE]

I'm going to keep calling you out on this every time you do it and I see it. I don't even care that you voted for LeBron but...stop using Player of the Month! [B]The award didn't even exist the first SEVEN years of Malone's career[/B] and they never awarded to a player from each conference during his career.

[QUOTE=KG215]I'm going to keep calling you out on this every time you do it and I see it. I don't even care that you voted for LeBron but...stop using Player of the Month! [B]The award didn't even exist the first SEVEN years of Malone's career[/B] and they never awarded to a player from each conference during his career.[/QUOTE]
Co-sign.

Stop making LeBron fans look bad man. You're not helping his case at all. You're just like Kennethgriffin to Kobe. Probably not as bad, but still. Why make an unfair comparison?

[QUOTE=Dave3]Co-sign.

Stop making LeBron fans look bad man. You're not helping his case at all. You're just like Kennethgriffin to Kobe. Probably not as bad, but still. Why make an unfair comparison?[/QUOTE]
Agreed, ironically stans of a player who try to boost their favorite player on ISH often do exactly the opposite.

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]So if you're going to count when Lebron was a runner up, don't you think you should count that for everybody else?[/QUOTE]

I do and they were not DPOY runner ups... :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=pauk]......................Lebron............Oscar..............West..........
MVP...................3...................1....................0..............
FMVP..................1..................0....................1...............
CHAMP...............1(the man).....1(sidekick)......1(sidekick)..
ROTY................Yes................Yes.................No.............
DPOY..............RunnerUp.........No..................No.............
1st All-NBA.........6...................9...................10.............
1st All-Def..........4...................0....................4..............
All-Star MVP........2...................3...................1..............
All-Star..............8...................12.................14..............
POTM................20..................0...................0...............
Best Player?.......Yes..............Never.............Never...........[/QUOTE]

:facepalm

You use POTM here even though it was never an award during Robertson's or West's career.

I mean, of course, anyone that has a brain knows that POTM is pretty insignificant when it comes to ranking players, but it's the pettiness of using it that shows just how pathetic you are when it comes to defending your boy LeBron.

I'm going to start doing this when I compare Russell and Kareem and use Finals MVPs as one of my categories when I want people to rank Kareem higher.

[QUOTE=Lebronn23]You're the biggest homer on this site, you have no reason to talk about someone else.[/QUOTE]

Homer? Is that the best you could do with that alt-account? Prove it to me please... a homer is a player fan that will always favor his favorite player over others... biasness so to speak... a homer is not a guy favoring the player that deserves to be favored based ON FACTS...

Good try...

The King, LeBron James.

[QUOTE=KG215]:facepalm

You use POTM here even though it was never an award during Robertson's or West's career.

I mean, of course, anyone that has a brain knows that POTM is pretty insignificant when it comes to ranking players, but it's the pettiness of using it that shows just how pathetic you are when it comes to defending your boy LeBron.

I'm going to start doing this when I compare Russell and Kareem and use Finals MVPs as one of my categories when I want people to rank Kareem higher.[/QUOTE]

Well, skip the POTM and then try "facepalm" the other accomplishments...

POTM is not insignificant, its a hardware/trophy delivered to the MVP of the month by the MVP voters.... it has the MVP criterias and the guy that won the most POTM in a season most often also won the MVP...

i vote lebron


just to mess with the list

its already f*cked. can we end it already?

[QUOTE=pauk]Well, skip the POTM and then and try "facepalm" the other accomplishments...

POTM is not insignificant, its a hardware/trophy delivered to the MVP of the month by the MVP voters.... it has the MVP criterias and the guy that won the most POTM in a season most often also won the MVP...[/QUOTE]

It is insignificant because the award has only existed since they '79-'80 season and they didn't start awarding it to a player from each conference until '01-'02. You just have it in your mind that it's significant because it's a number you can put on LeBron's resume to make him look better.

Why even use it? Especially when comparing LeBron to Moses Malone (POTM didn't exist first seven years of his career and never played when they gave it to a player from both conferences) or LeBron to West and Oscar (the award never existed during either players career). I mean if you want to make one of those resume comparisons for LeBron, West, and Oscar why don't you just delete the POTM section? Is it that hard to do? Or do you just not want to because you think some people will see that and think "Wow, LeBron has been named POTM 20 times but neither of those other guys ever won the award."

[QUOTE]The triple double averaging Magic Johnson who just came of two championships and 2 FMVPs.... Then the 31-6-5 @ 56% FG Adrian Dantley made it tough to, Larry Bird, Kareem, George Gervin, Bernard King and so on...

Choosing the best player in that season was not as easy choosing the best player this season...[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]If you told a version of ISH in 1983 that Magic was better than Moses Malone they probably would have banned you.

Moses won 3 MVPs in 4 or 5 years totally dominated the playoffs/finals in 83 and was probably as respected as anyone in sports. I remember Bird saying the toughest opponent he ever had before Jordan....was Moses.

Moses just got disregarded over time.

And all NBA team numbers between a swingman and center never add up. He has one spot while Lebron has 2. Guys like Kareem would have been all nba first team 17 years in a row with 2 spots. Moses would have had 8 or 9 straight.[/QUOTE]

Seriously, this...

Moses was clearly the best in 83. Not even a debate.

I also believe he was considered he best player in the game for a good 3 years stretch.

[QUOTE=pauk]Well, skip the POTM and then try "facepalm" the other accomplishments...

POTM is not insignificant, its a hardware/trophy delivered to the MVP of the month by the MVP voters.... it has the MVP criterias and the guy that won the most POTM in a season most often also won the MVP...[/QUOTE]

Did your mother drop you as a baby? :roll:

I can't vote here. I believe Moses or Oscar would probably go next from Top 10 lists from the experts ...and i am too young to have seen them.

I will only be voting for players from circa 1995 and up, and i will only vote for them at spots that make sense for them (I won't be voting for Malone here, even though he's the next on my circa 1995 and up list).

I suggest a lot of you do the same.

[QUOTE=pauk]You hate that dont you... :rolleyes:
Put your Kobetardism aside for once and respect the game of basketball... Lebron has accomplished more than Moses, West and Oscar...[/QUOTE]

What's with all of your stupid made up words? Kobetardism? What the f[COLOR="Black"]u[/COLOR]ck? :facepalm

[QUOTE=pauk]Homer? Is that the best you could do with that alt-account? Prove it to me please... a homer is a player fan that will always favor his favorite player over others... biasness so to speak... a homer is not a guy favoring the player that deserves to be favored based ON FACTS...

Good try...[/QUOTE]

Dude, you're one of the biggest homers on ISH. No need to deny it. Everyone on here is biased.

Erm, christ this is where it gets tough and I start to be a little more indifferent. I'll vote for [b]West[/b] though

[QUOTE=Heavincent]Dude, you're one of the biggest homers on ISH. No need to deny it.[B] Everyone on here is biased.[/B][/QUOTE]
:applause: :applause:

Wait a minute :biggums:
This is ISH :no:
stop with all that realistic reasonable BS :rant
You're supposed to either say "HURR Kobe da GOAT LeChoke sucks" or "HURR LeBron da GOAT KoBrick sucks" :no: