Better Player: Scottie Pippen or John Havlicek?

[QUOTE=bizil]In comparison to Hondo, then YES Hondo has the clear edge scoring the rock. The comparison is Hondo vs. Pippen. And Hondo has more stage presence being a dominant scorer. If u ask most NBA experts in the know, they will tell u Hondo was a better number one option than Pippen. And it's not always how many points u score, it's also WHEN u score them. Hondo was far more CLUTCH willing a team scoring than Pip ever was. While ALSO being the blueprint for the style of Pippen went on to redefine.

And I can counter your scoring argument in terms of Hondo's minutes by saying he shot long 2 point FG's back then that would be 3 pointers today. Pip had the luxury of playing with the three point line. So that cancels that argument. And many guys couldn't be as durable playing all those minutes anyway. So it should be APPLAUDED that Hondo played all those minutes and not looked at as a crutch in terms of his scoring output. Which by the way peaked out at around 29 points a night. WITHOUT A THREE POINT LINE!!!!!

When did I EVER say scoring was the only thing that matters in bball. I NEVER SAID THAT SHIT! I have ALWAYS SAID scoring was the MOST premium asset in bball. Because the only GUARANTEED STAT which promises a W is points. If u are facing a great defensive team, u would be in great shape if u had a great scorer to combat that![/QUOTE]


Plus Hondo was also a great defensive player, lockdown defender.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Cut the excuses. If Hondo was so great he would gotten more MVP votes.


And he was considered one of the best by the late 60s/early 70s because the ABA was taking a lot of basketballs top players. Throw Malone, Dr.J, Hawkins, and a few others in the NBA, and he would've never sniffed an MVP vote[/QUOTE]

Guess Kareem, West (early 70's), Frazier, Wilt (early 70's), Cowens, McAdoo, Maravich, Rick Barry, Nate Archibald, Elvin Hayes... Mean sh*t.

[QUOTE=bizil]In comparison to Hondo, then YES Hondo has the clear edge scoring the rock. The comparison is Hondo vs. Pippen. And Hondo has more stage presence being a dominant scorer. If u ask most NBA experts in the know, they will tell u Hondo was a better number one option than Pippen. And it's not always how many points u score, it's also WHEN u score them. Hondo was far more CLUTCH willing a team scoring than Pip ever was. While ALSO being the blueprint for the style of Pippen went on to redefine.


And I can counter your scoring argument in terms of Hondo's minutes by saying he shot long 2 point FG's back then that would be 3 pointers today. Pip had the luxury of playing with the three point line. So that cancels that argument. And many guys couldn't be as durable playing all those minutes anyway. So it should be APPLAUDED that Hondo played all those minutes and not looked at as a crutch in terms of his scoring output. Which by the way peaked out at around 29 points a night. WITHOUT A THREE POINT LINE!!!!!
[B]the three point line has never increased scoring. In the mid 90s. The league even tried to increase scoring by moving it in and scoring still went down. All experts accept the fact that you can't compare stats from the 60s with modern basketball. Hondos not avg close to 30 ppg now a days. Its not different thain if I try to say Pippen is a better scorer by looing at their fg%. And I'm not penalizing Hondos minutes per. But to totally dismiis that fact is wrong.[/B]


When did I EVER say scoring was the only thing that matters in bball. I NEVER SAID THAT SHIT! I have ALWAYS SAID scoring was the MOST premium asset in bball. Because the only GUARANTEED STAT which promises a W is points. If u are facing a great defensive team, u would be in great shape if u had a great scorer to combat that![/QUOTE]
Lol reread my post. I believe I stated that your stance is that the most important facet of basetball is scoring. And that's WRONG. No coach puts offense at a premium over the other facets of basketball. NONE. Other than Dantoni and Nelson. And its no coincidence that they have a combined no championships.

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT]Guess Kareem, West (early 70's), Frazier, Wilt (early 70's), Cowens, McAdoo, Maravich, Rick Barry, Nate Archibald, Elvin Hayes... Mean sh*t.[/QUOTE]
You ought to be ashamed of yourself making this dumb post.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol I'm looking at his stats and accolades when he played in the 60s, he only was able to break the top 10 in MVP voting once. And that year he was 10th. Then the highest he ever got was 4th when the ABA was at its apex and took some of the big name players from the NBA and had some big name players.


Just from looking, Hondo was never considered on West or Robinsons level.


And the two years he avg 28 ppg, he played 45 minutes per.[/QUOTE]

Well many MVPs did West? MVPs are not everything - otherwise Nash would be in the top 10 right?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol reread my post. I believe I stated that your stance is that the most important facet of basetball is scoring. And that's WRONG. No coach puts offense at a premium over the other facets of basketball. NONE. Other than Dantoni and Nelson. And its no coincidence that they have a combined no championships.[/QUOTE]

U are missing the point! If whoever scores the most points is the ONLY WAY to win a game, then it HAS to be the most premium asset. And for every Dantoni and Nelson u show me, I can show a team like the Showtime Lakers. Or teams that have 2-3 alpha HOFers.

U are putting words in my mouth. I never said the way Nelson and Dantoni play bball is the ultimate way to play. What I MEAN is most of the premier players in basketball are DOMINANT SCORERS:

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron-Big O-Hakeem

In my book, these are the top 12 players of all time. Other than Russell what do these guys have in common? It's the fact that THEY ARE ALL DOMINANT SCORERS. Or in the case of a PG like Magic, can become one at the drop of a hat. Russell is the rare breed who is the exception. Many of these guys on my list WERE ALSO epic defenders. So it's not just scoring that matters.

But don't get it twisted, the Spurs as great a defensive team that they were had Timmy. Those Bulls teams had MJ. Those Pistons teams had Isiah. The Rockets had Hakeem and Drexler. The Knicks had Frazier, Reed, and Monroe. The Heat got Bron and Wade. All of teams I named were GREAT DEFENSIVE TEAMS who ALSO had immortals who were DOMINANT SCORERS! U need guys who can put the ball in the hole AGAINST ALL ODDS! The way u talk, u would take Eddie Jones over George Gervin! Or Mutumbo over Bob McAdoo! Or Dumars over George Gervin! LOL

[QUOTE=nycelt84]That's not why his scoring went up. His scoring went up because all the other high scorers on the team faded away or retired. He was the Celtics leading scorer by his 2nd season. And he would finish 1st or 2nd for the next several years.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. During his seasons 2-5, he averaged 18-21 points a game while playing only 28-32 minutes. To this day, he remains Boston's all-time scoring leader. AND he actually raised his level of play in the playoffs. He averaged 26-9-8 in 1968, 25-10-6 in 1968, and 27-6-6 in 1974 - all years when Boston won. And he had tons of clutch moments from "Havlicek steals the ball" in 1965 to his shot in the famuous triple overtime finals game in 1976, when he was 36 and injured.

Sorry, but he is on a different level than Pippen. To the extent you can compare the two, he was Pippen plus - same great all around game (Russell called him the best all around player ever) and defense but better scoring, leadership, and clutch ability.

[QUOTE=kizut1659]Well many MVPs did West? MVPs are not everything - otherwise Nash would be in the top 10 right?[/QUOTE]
I'm not even talking about winning. He didn't. Come close until half the players capable of winning were playing in the ABA. And even then the best he could do was fourth. Pippen placed third in 94. And had top ten finishes playing alongside Jordan.

[QUOTE=kizut1659]Well many MVPs did West? MVPs are not everything - otherwise Nash would be in the top 10 right?[/QUOTE]

Excellent point! And I guess Shaq and Kobe are inferior to Nash as well! lol MVPs ultimately are OPINIONS that turn into an award. If a reporter doesn't like u or has an agenda, they won't vote for u a lot of the time. Hell Jordan could have been a 10 time MVP! Shaq and Kobe were certainly capable of having three MVPs like Bron does today. The only awards that are FLAT OUT FACTS THROUGH AND THROUGH are championships, gold medals, scoring titles, rebounding titles, assists titles, etc.

[QUOTE=kizut1659]Exactly. During his seasons 2-5, he averaged 18-21 points a game while playing only 28-32 minutes. To this day, he remains Boston's all-time scoring leader. AND he actually raised his level of play in the playoffs. He averaged 26-9-8 in 1968, 25-10-6 in 1968, and 27-6-6 in 1974 - all years when Boston won. And he had tons of clutch moments from "Havlicek steals the ball" in 1965 to his shot in the famuous triple overtime finals game in 1976, when he was 36 and injured.

Sorry, but he is on a different level than Pippen. To the extent you can compare the two, he was Pippen plus - same great all around game (Russell called him the best all around player ever) and defense but better scoring, leadership, and clutch ability.[/QUOTE]

Nothing that I've read about Havlicek would lead me to believe that he was a better leader than Pippen. What have you read that would cause you to believe otherwise?

[QUOTE=bizil]U are missing the point! If whoever scores the most points is the ONLY WAY to win a game, then it HAS to be the most premium asset. And for every Dantoni and Nelson u show me, I can show a team like the Showtime Lakers. Or teams that have 2-3 alpha HOFers.

U are putting words in my mouth. I never said the way Nelson and Dantoni play bball is the ultimate way to play. What I MEAN is most of the premier players in basketball are DOMINANT SCORERS:

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron-Big O-Hakeem

In my book, these are the top 12 players of all time. Other than Russell what do these guys have in common? It's the fact that THEY ARE ALL DOMINANT SCORERS. Or in the case of a PG like Magic, can become one at the drop of a hat. Russell is the rare breed who is the exception. Many of these guys on my list WERE ALSO epic defenders. So it's not just scoring that matters.

But don't get it twisted, the Spurs as great a defensive team that they were had Timmy. Those Bulls teams had MJ. Those Pistons teams had Isiah. The Rockets had Hakeem and Drexler. The Knicks had Frazier, Reed, and Monroe. The Heat got Bron and Wade. All of teams I named were GREAT DEFENSIVE TEAMS who ALSO had immortals who were DOMINANT SCORERS! U need guys who can put the ball in the hole AGAINST ALL ODDS! The way u talk, u would take Eddie Jones over George Gervin! Or Mutumbo over Bob McAdoo! Or Dumars over George Gervin! LOL[/QUOTE]
You know why those guys are top 10? CHAMPIONSHIPS. All those players were great at at least two or more aspects of basketball. They were much more than just scoring. You have the mindset of an occasional fan.


Why isn't Gervin or Iverson ranked higher? Two guys that have multiple seasons leading the league in scoring. And more seasons in the high 20s/low 30s? Ill tell you why. They were one dimensional, and didn't win any championships.


I also notice you love to stress the importance of "clutch" scoring. Well clutch defense is just as important and even more difficult.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]I'm not even talking about winning. He didn't. Come close until half the players capable of winning were playing in the ABA. And even then the best he could do was fourth. Pippen placed third in 94. And had top ten finishes playing alongside Jordan.[/QUOTE]

U can put whatever spin u want to on this. MVP votes are opinons that are then awarded. The NBA was mad deep in the 60s, even though their weren't as many teams. U are talking about Wilt, West, Baylor, Pettit, Russell, etc. Their is no shame in finishing behind those guys. And a lot of Pippen's top ten finishes got helped out because he was playing alongside MJ winning rings. MJ had more to do with Pippen getting those votes before MJ needing Pippen for MVP votes. MJ was already league MVP and Defensive Player of the year BEFORE Pippen was even ready for primetime in 1988. This was in the L with Magic, Bird, Isiah, etc. When Pippen went on his run, guess what? NO ISIAH, NO MAGIC, NO BIRD, and NO MJ. So don't knock Hondo for his MVP shit, when Pippen's best chance came when four immortals were outta the picture HYPOCRITE!!!

[QUOTE=97 bulls]I'm not even talking about winning. He didn't. Come close until half the players capable of winning were playing in the ABA. And even then the best he could do was fourth. Pippen placed third in 94. And had top ten finishes playing alongside Jordan.[/QUOTE]

It doesn't seem that there were many seasons in the 60s that had top 10 mvp voting - only top 5. Also if the MVP voters can get the MVP winner wrong (which they did many many times), they can also get the top 5-10 wrong. By your logic Isiah Thomas, who never finished as high as Pippen in MVP voting, is a worse player than him. Finally, like I said, Havlicek's best performances came in the playoffs.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Nothing that I've read about Havlicek would lead me to believe that he was a better leader than Pippen. What have you read that would cause you to believe otherwise?[/QUOTE]

He functioned as an assistant coach under Russel in 1968 and 1969. He was the undisputed leader in the 70s - see the SI article i linked above. Pippen was only a leader in 1993-1994 and his most famous moment from that season is refusing to enter the game when the final shot was called for Kukoc. He showed zero leadership in Houston in 1999. In 2000, it was Portland's lack of leadership among other things that led to the worst 4th collapse in league history up to that time. Wasn't Pippen 0 for 2 in that quarter? I know Pippen was older then but he was younger than Havlicek in 1976, when he led an aging Boston team to a final championship and made clutch shots along the way.

[QUOTE=kizut1659]Exactly. During his seasons 2-5, he averaged 18-21 points a game while playing only 28-32 minutes. To this day, he remains Boston's all-time scoring leader. AND he actually raised his level of play in the playoffs. He averaged 26-9-8 in 1968, 25-10-6 in 1968, and 27-6-6 in 1974 - all years when Boston won. And he had tons of clutch moments from "Havlicek steals the ball" in 1965 to his shot in the famuous triple overtime finals game in 1976, when he was 36 and injured.

Sorry, but he is on a different level than Pippen. To the extent you can compare the two, he was Pippen plus - same great all around game (Russell called him the best all around player ever) and defense but better scoring, leadership, and clutch ability.[/QUOTE]
Scottie Pippen has had more clutch moments in the playoffs than Hondo. How bout the blocks on charles smith? Or his defense on Magic? Or his leading the Bulls back from that 15 point deficit vs the Blazers? Or the game clinching steal vs the Jazz? Or the two clutch shots he hit vs the jazz with that bad back?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]You know why those guys are top 10? CHAMPIONSHIPS. All those players were great at at least two or more aspects of basketball. They were much more than just scoring. You have the mindset of an occasional fan.


Why isn't Gervin or Iverson ranked higher? Two guys that have multiple seasons leading the league in scoring. And more seasons in the high 20s/low 30s? Ill tell you why. They were one dimensional, and didn't win any championships.


I also notice you love to stress the importance of "clutch" scoring. Well clutch defense is just as important and even more difficult.[/QUOTE]

U are insane for real! If titles are everything and Pippen is that great, why isn't Pippen in the top 10? How about the top 20? Pippen is more in that 30 range. If rings mean everything, then why is Pippen that low while Hondo STAYS in most people's top 13-20? Pippen has more rings than Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Wilt, Bird, Bron, Big O, and Hakeem. He has just as many as MJ and Kareem and stands only behind Russell. Those players are that high because of rings AND they were SIMPLY ON ANOTHER LEVEL OR TWO THAN PIPPEN! Get Pip's dick outta ya mouth and face facts!!! U wanna get personal now I gonna really expose your ass.

It's because the perception of Pippen is that he can't will a team scoring the rock like other legendary SG's or SF's. U keep avoiding the damn issue. But why is Pippen rated that low with his resume? Answer that for me PLEASE if u got any balls. Give me conclusive proof why Pippen should be a top 20 player of all time instead of a top 30 player. Guys with NO RINGS like Barkley and Malone are ALWAYS RATED AHEAD OF PIPPEN! LMBAO!!! Guys with less rings than Pippen (like nine outta my top 12 players ever) have less rings than Pippen.

If u give Lebron James six rings, he battling it out with MJ for GOAT or damn close to it. Certainly MORE CLOSE than Pip ever got to MJ's level. How about giving Wilt six rings? He would be the GOAT and not MJ most likely. Six rings is a shitload of rings that can really boost GOAT standing. The sad part is it only boosted Pippen to top 30 all time status. I LOL to think were Pip would be WITHOUT ANY RINGS! I know where guys like Nique, Stockton, Mailman, Ewing, Barkley, and Mullin ended up. And that's the Hall of Fame bitch! I'm not sure Pippen makes the HOF if he doesn't have all of those rings.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Scottie Pippen has had more clutch moments in the playoffs than Hondo. How bout the blocks on charles smith? Or his defense on Magic? Or his leading the Bulls back from that 15 point deficit vs the Blazers? Or the game clinching steal vs the Jazz? Or the two clutch shots he hit vs the jazz with that bad back?[/QUOTE]

LOl thats the stupidest post i've ever read and i don't want waste time or energy rebutting everything that you've said. . . i must say though that "defense" on Magic is not "clutch" -Pippen was just a great defender and so was Havlicek, both of their defense were instrumental to their team's championships. And Pippen never had the equivalent of 1965 Havlicek steals the ball moment. Also I think the only game winning shot Pippen ever made was a dunk on MJ's missed shot against Washington in 1997. And what freaking 2 clutch shots against the Jazz are you talking about?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]You know why those guys are top 10? CHAMPIONSHIPS. All those players were great at at least two or more aspects of basketball. They were much more than just scoring. You have the mindset of an occasional fan.


Why isn't Gervin or Iverson ranked higher? Two guys that have multiple seasons leading the league in scoring. And more seasons in the high 20s/low 30s? Ill tell you why. They were one dimensional, and didn't win any championships.


I also notice you love to stress the importance of "clutch" scoring. Well clutch defense is just as important and even more difficult.[/QUOTE]

Gervin got the Spurs on deep playoff runs. Sometimes the better team wins u can't knock George for that. AI got that Sixers (i guarantee one of the five worst Eastern Conference Champion Teams EVER) to the Finals. That's not a small feat. AI was far from a one dimensional player. He was a great passer at SG, one of the premier SG passers of all time. AI could EASILY run point better than scoring first PG's like Rose, Parker, and Westbrook. AI had WAY MORE OF AN UNDERSTANDING running point those two do currently. AI was just more killer scoring oriented and shifted to SG, which was a genius move by Larry Brown.

I realize u have clutch defense too. I NEVER DOUBTED PIP ON THAT!! I'm talking about clutch scoring!! And I doubt Pippen on that. Shit i would rather have PG's willing me to victory scoring such as CP3, Rose, DWill, Westbrook, and Parker before Pippen. Or if u wanna go old school Isiah, Clyde Frazier, or Tiny. Magic and Big O go without saying.

The guy who won a Finals MVP.

[QUOTE=bizil]U can put whatever spin u want to on this. MVP votes are opinons that are then awarded.
[B]a few post earlier, you were taking those "experts" word as gospel. Now you want to trivialize them when it doesn't agree with your POV? [/B]

The NBA was mad deep in the 60s, even though their weren't as many teams. U are talking about Wilt, West, Baylor, Pettit, Russell, etc. Their is no shame in finishing behind those guys.
[B]I'm not diminshing Hondos inability to get an MVP. But posters have said he was on par with West and Robinson. That's not true.[/B]

And a lot of Pippen's top ten finishes got helped out because he was playing alongside MJ winning rings. MJ had more to do with Pippen getting those votes before MJ needing Pippen for MVP votes.
[B]This makes no sense[/B]

MJ was already league MVP and Defensive Player of the year BEFORE Pippen was even ready for primetime in 1988. This was in the L with Magic, Bird, Isiah, etc. When Pippen went on his run, guess what? NO ISIAH, NO MAGIC, NO BIRD, and NO MJ.
[B]Pippen had to compete with Jordan, Barkley, Olajuwon, Shaq, Malone, Robinson. That's nothing to scoff at. [/B]

So don't knock Hondo for his MVP shit, when Pippen's best chance came when four immortals were outta the picture HYPOCRITE!!![/QUOTE]
The only hypocrite here is you. I even said I can see why Hondo would be ranked higher. He accomplished more in the league. You on the other hand allude to experts when it convientient for you but then belittle the same experts when the theory doesn't follow your pov. I've seen you say Pippen wasn't a franchise player because he couldn't lead the Bulls to a championship in 94. Then call Mchale a franchise player in spite of the fact he failed miserably in 89.

Pippen, because he was the better player.

[QUOTE=bizil]U are insane for real! If titles are everything and Pippen is that great, why isn't Pippen in the top 10? How about the top 20? Pippen is more in that 30 range. If rings mean everything, then why is Pippen that low while Hondo STAYS in most people's top 13-20?
[B]Hold on, are you referring to the "experts" again? Don't know. Maybe they dislike Pippen more than they dislike Hondo. [/B]

Pippen has more rings than Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Wilt, Bird, Bron, Big O, and Hakeem. He has just as many as MJ and Kareem and stands only behind Russell. Those players are that high because of rings AND they were SIMPLY ON ANOTHER LEVEL OR TWO THAN PIPPEN! Get Pip's dick outta ya mouth and face facts!!! U wanna get personal now I gonna really expose your ass.

It's because the perception of Pippen is that he can't will a team scoring the rock like other legendary SG's or SF's. U keep avoiding the damn issue. But why is Pippen rated that low with his resume? Answer that for me PLEASE if u got any balls. Give me conclusive proof why Pippen should be a top 20 player of all time instead of a top 30 player. Guys with NO RINGS like Barkley and Malone are ALWAYS RATED AHEAD OF PIPPEN! LMBAO!!! Guys with less rings than Pippen (like nine outta my top 12 players ever) have less rings than Pippen.
[B]Pippen doesn't have an MVP. If he won and MVP in 94 (which some fell he would've had he not missed those ten game), he's top 15 easily. [/B]

If u give Lebron James six rings, he battling it out with MJ for GOAT or damn close to it. Certainly MORE CLOSE than Pip ever got to MJ's level. How about giving Wilt six rings? He would be the GOAT and not MJ most likely. Six rings is a shitload of rings that can really boost GOAT standing. The sad part is it only boosted Pippen to top 30 all time status. I LOL to think were Pip would be WITHOUT ANY RINGS! I know where guys like Nique, Stockton, Mailman, Ewing, Barkley, and Mullin ended up. And that's the Hall of Fame bitch! I'm not sure Pippen makes the HOF if he doesn't have all of those rings.[/QUOTE]
That's all players bro. Strip any player of their rings and they're rank would plummet. Both James and Jordan were considered losers before they won their championships. Inspite of the amazing stats both players put up.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]That's all players bro. Strip any player of their rings and they're rank would plummet. Both James and Jordan were considered losers before they won their championships. Inspite of the amazing stats both players put up.[/QUOTE]

But Pip's standing would plummet WAY MORE THAN MJ's or Bron' ranking! Because MJ and Bron are simply in another universe than Pippen. Take rings away and MJ and Bron would be first ballot HOF. I can't say the same about Pippen. Especially when a guy like Worthy with three rings wasn't first ballot. It's unfortunate many felt Bron and MJ were losers. U gotta look at the sum of the parts as well. I feel gotta blame the surrounding cast MORE than you would MJ or Bron. MJ ran into the Celtics and Pistons early in his career. MJ and the Bulls were NEVER favored to beat those teams initially.

It was when Pippen and Grant came of age that the Bulls became a force. Everybody doesn't have the luxury to join a team with KAJ, Nixon, and Wilkes like Magic. Bron got one of the worst Eastern Conference Title teams ever to the Finals in the Cavs. Though should have been applauded instead of hated on. Bron ran into the Pistons and later the Celtics. Two teams the were clearly better.

In terms of MVPs, they can be overrated at times. GOAT standing takes WAY MORE INTO ACCOUNT than an MVP vote. Therefore, I feel u can come to a more logical conclusion GOAT wise as opposed to MVP. Both are based on opinion, but GOAT or HOF type stuff gives u a larger body of work to choose from. MVP is just for that 1 year. GOAT-HOF can take into account possibly 20 years of accolades both solo and team, longevity being great, numbers, and impact on the L. (redefining position, a face of the L casual fan wise) So I have more ammo to throw at somebody in terms of debating a legacy INSTEAD of a one season. Sure Pippen in '94 was the best perimeter player in the world. But legacy wise, Pippen is FAR FROM THAT DISTINCTION, VERY FAR!

[QUOTE=fpliii]Who do you think was better, and why?[/QUOTE]
There should only be 3-5 people that should have a legit opinion. Most of us have never seen Havlicek play outside of a few highlights.

[QUOTE=kizut1659]LOl thats the stupidest post i've ever read and i don't want waste time or energy rebutting everything that you've said. . . i must say though that "defense" on Magic is not "clutch" -Pippen was just a great defender and so was Havlicek, both of their defense were instrumental to their team's championships. And Pippen never had the equivalent of 1965 Havlicek steals the ball moment. Also I think the only game winning shot Pippen ever made was a dunk on MJ's missed shot against Washington in 1997. And what freaking 2 clutch shots against the Jazz are you talking about?[/QUOTE]
The double standard is just incredible. So Pippens defense on Magiic doesn't matter because he was a great defender? Let me show you the magnitude of Pippens ability to defend Magic. As we all know, Pippen switched on to Magic because Jordan got into foul trouble defending him. Let say instead of Pippen, George Gervin is the Bulls SF. A 30 ppg scorer. The Bulls have noone capable of assuming the. Responsibility of defending Magic. Two things are gonna happen.

1. Jordan must stay on him and just be loose. Magic shreds the Bulls defense and while Jordan offense is minimized because he must spend time on the bench. Something very similar to what happened to the thunder this past Finals. Durants impact was. Minimized because he stayed in foul trouble trying to defend James.

2. They switch Gervin on to Magic in an effort to keep Jordan out of foul trouble. Magic get Gervin in foul trouble while shredding the Bulls with his offense and passing.


In both scenarios the Bulls probably lose game 2 because both Jordans and Gervins effectiveness would be minimzied due to fouls. And thus the Bulls go to LA down 0-2 with three straight games in LA.

What Pippen did was clutch

[QUOTE=97 bulls]The double standard is just incredible. So Pippens defense on Magiic doesn't matter because he was a great defender? Let me show you the magnitude of Pippens ability to defend Magic. As we all know, Pippen switched on to Magic because Jordan got into foul trouble defending him. Let say instead of Pippen, George Gervin is the Bulls SF. A 30 ppg scorer. The Bulls have noone capable of assuming the. Responsibility of defending Magic. Two things are gonna happen.

1. Jordan must stay on him and just be loose. Magic shreds the Bulls defense and while Jordan offense is minimized because he must spend time on the bench. Something very similar to what happened to the thunder this past Finals. Durants impact was. Minimized because he stayed in foul trouble trying to defend James.

2. They switch Gervin on to Magic in an effort to keep Jordan out of foul trouble. Magic get Gervin in foul trouble while shredding the Bulls with his offense and passing.


In both scenarios the Bulls probably lose game 2 because both Jordans and Gervins effectiveness would be minimzied due to fouls. And thus the Bulls go to LA down 0-2 with three straight games in LA.

What Pippen did was clutch[/QUOTE]

A peak Gervin and MJ at the same time would have been devastating, but in a different way. The Bulls could have possibly wheeled and dealed and got a perimeter defender to still take the heat off of MJ in terms of having to check Magic. But I will give Pip this, he was the perfect compliment to MJ. He took pressure off of MJ in terms of being the main perimeter defender and assist guy. And Pip was a very good scorer who could get his 20-23 a night. If it was MJ and Gervin, they would be tougher to stop scoring wise. But MJ would have to take on more of the passing and defensive duties. So the Bulls would have to win a different way. Pip was the perfect compliment, but peak Gervin and peak MJ would have been devastating! It would just be different and hopefully the Bulls would have acquired a defensive wing to go with it.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]The double standard is just incredible. So Pippens defense on Magiic doesn't matter because he was a great defender? Let me show you the magnitude of Pippens ability to defend Magic. As we all know, Pippen switched on to Magic because Jordan got into foul trouble defending him. Let say instead of Pippen, George Gervin is the Bulls SF. A 30 ppg scorer. The Bulls have noone capable of assuming the. Responsibility of defending Magic. Two things are gonna happen.

1. Jordan must stay on him and just be loose. Magic shreds the Bulls defense and while Jordan offense is minimized because he must spend time on the bench. Something very similar to what happened to the thunder this past Finals. Durants impact was. Minimized because he stayed in foul trouble trying to defend James.

2. They switch Gervin on to Magic in an effort to keep Jordan out of foul trouble. Magic get Gervin in foul trouble while shredding the Bulls with his offense and passing.


In both scenarios the Bulls probably lose game 2 because both Jordans and Gervins effectiveness would be minimzied due to fouls. And thus the Bulls go to LA down 0-2 with three straight games in LA.

What Pippen did was clutch[/QUOTE]

I love how you ignored basically everything in my post and the one point you've adressed you completely miscarecterized what i've said. I AGREED with you that Pippen is a great defender! The only point i was making is that great defense is not "clutch" - its a freaking skill. BOTH Pippen and Havlicek had it, just like both of them had excellent all-around game with passing and rebounding. What separates Havlicek from Pippen is superior scoring and clutch play. I don't care how much you want to twist the facts but that cannot be disputed by anyone who has any objectivity.

BTW this is very secondary and i am not saying that Pippen's defense in 1991 did not help and that he did not do a good job but Magic still averaged 18.6/8/12.4 in the finals. This was not quite the 1987 version of Magic so yes, Pippen should get the credit, but Jordan was BY FAR the mvp of that series.

I've constantly said this and will say it again: Havlicek is the most underrated player on ISH.

[QUOTE=bizil]But Pip's standing would plummet WAY MORE THAN MJ's or Bron' ranking! Because MJ and Bron are simply in another universe than Pippen. Take rings away and MJ and Bron would be first ballot HOF. I can't say the same about Pippen. Especially when a guy like Worthy with three rings wasn't first ballot.
[B]I can't disagree with this. But I'm not trying to compare Pippen with James and Jordan. [/B]

It's unfortunate many felt Bron and MJ were losers. U gotta look at the sum of the parts as well. I feel gotta blame the surrounding cast MORE than you would MJ or Bron. MJ ran into the Celtics and Pistons early in his career. MJ and the Bulls were NEVER favored to beat those teams initially.
[B]But neither was Pippen. And yet you penalize him for not winning in 94. Saying he didn't do enough to win. Well no one did enough to win if they lose. And James did lose to teams his Cavs teams should've beat. But he gets a pass right?[/B]


It was when Pippen and Grant came of age that the Bulls became a force. Everybody doesn't have the luxury to join a team with KAJ, Nixon, and Wilkes like Magic. Bron got one of the worst Eastern Conference Title teams ever to the Finals in the Cavs. Though should have been applauded instead of hated on. Bron ran into the Pistons and later the Celtics. Two teams the were clearly better.
[B]Oh please. James and his Cavs teams played in a conference that was terrible. That Pistons team was injury riddled.[/B]


In terms of MVPs, they can be overrated at times. GOAT standing takes WAY MORE INTO ACCOUNT than an MVP vote. Therefore, I feel u can come to a more logical conclusion GOAT wise as opposed to MVP. Both are based on opinion, but GOAT or HOF type stuff gives u a larger body of work to choose from. MVP is just for that 1 year. GOAT-HOF can take into account possibly 20 years of accolades both solo and team, longevity being great, numbers, and impact on the L. (redefining position, a face of the L casual fan wise) So I have more ammo to throw at somebody in terms of debating a legacy INSTEAD of a one season. Sure Pippen in '94 was the best perimeter player in the world. But legacy wise, Pippen is FAR FROM THAT DISTINCTION, VERY FAR![/QUOTE]
Well, you asked me and I gave you my opinion. Championships and MVPs are the most important criteria when ranking players in my opinion.

[QUOTE=bizil]A peak Gervin and MJ at the same time would have been devastating, but in a different way. The Bulls could have possibly wheeled and dealed and got a perimeter defender to still take the heat off of MJ in terms of having to check Magic. But I will give Pip this, he was the perfect compliment to MJ. He took pressure off of MJ in terms of being the main perimeter defender and assist guy. And Pip was a very good scorer who could get his 20-23 a night. If it was MJ and Gervin, they would be tougher to stop scoring wise. But MJ would have to take on more of the passing and defensive duties. So the Bulls would have to win a different way. Pip was the perfect compliment, but peak Gervin and peak MJ would have been devastating! It would just be different and hopefully the Bulls would have acquired a defensive wing to go with it.[/QUOTE]
Think about what your saying, Pippens impact is tantamount to two players. In this case Gervin and a solid wing defender.

Funny thing is, whenever someone wants to replace Pippen, its always with a center. Like Ewing or Robinson

[QUOTE=kizut1659]I love how you ignored basically everything in my post and the one point you've adressed you completely miscarecterized what i've said. I AGREED with you that Pippen is a great defender! The only point i was making is that great defense is not "clutch" - its a freaking skill. BOTH Pippen and Havlicek had it, just like both of them had excellent all-around game with passing and rebounding. What separates Havlicek from Pippen is superior scoring and clutch play. I don't care how much you want to twist the facts but that cannot be disputed by anyone who has any objectivity.
[B]So if I'm understanding you, defense can never be clutch because its a skill, but offense or the ability to score isn't? Ok[/B]


BTW this is very secondary and i am not saying that Pippen's defense in 1991 did not help and that he did not do a good job but Magic still averaged 18.6/8/12.4 in the finals. This was not quite the 1987 version of Magic so yes, Pippen should get the credit, but Jordan was BY FAR the mvp of that series.
[B]You cant go off stats solely. However, Magic shot a terrible percentage, had a lot of TOs, and the Lakers offense was flustered. During the regular season, the Lakers avg 106 ppg. In the finals, it dropped to 90. [/B]
[/QUOTE]
Jus outta curiousity, what would Pippen stats look like had he played in the 60s?

[QUOTE=bizil]

I realize u have clutch defense too. I NEVER DOUBTED PIP ON THAT!! I'm talking about clutch scoring!! And I doubt Pippen on that. Shit i would rather have PG's willing me to victory scoring such as CP3, Rose, DWill, Westbrook, and Parker before Pippen. Or if u wanna go old school Isiah, Clyde Frazier, or Tiny. Magic and Big O go without saying.[/QUOTE]

scottie brought a lot more to the table than any of those guys, that's what made him great. you just happen to rank shooting above everything else.

Wait, I know Pippen switched to Magic in game two and I think guarded him most of or for a half of game three, but I'm pretty sure Jordan was his primary defender the rest of the series.

[QUOTE=kizut1659]He functioned as an assistant coach under Russel in 1968 and 1969. He was the undisputed leader in the 70s - see the SI article i linked above. Pippen was only a leader in 1993-1994 and his most famous moment from that season is refusing to enter the game when the final shot was called for Kukoc. He showed zero leadership in Houston in 1999. In 2000, it was Portland's lack of leadership among other things that led to the worst 4th collapse in league history up to that time. Wasn't Pippen 0 for 2 in that quarter? I know Pippen was older then but he was younger than Havlicek in 1976, when he led an aging Boston team to a final championship and made clutch shots along the way.[/QUOTE]

ask phil jackson about pippen as a leader

[QUOTE=KG215]Wait, I know Pippen switched to Magic in game two and I thin guarded him most of or for a half of game three, but I'm pretty sue Jordan was his primary defender the rest of the series.[/QUOTE]
Jordan was. I was talking about game two exclusively.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Cut the excuses. If Hondo was so great he would gotten more MVP votes.


And he was considered one of the best by the late 60s/early 70s because the ABA was taking a lot of basketballs top players. Throw Malone, Dr.J, Hawkins, and a few others in the NBA, and he would've never sniffed an MVP vote[/QUOTE]

This is circa 70-73. Dr. J and Malone weren't even playing pro basketball then and Hawkins was in the NBA. But what should I expect from the guy who claims Pippen has more clutch moments in the playoffs than Havlicek and who knows nothing about Havlicek's clutch playoffs moments lol. Havlicek stealing the ball in Game 7 of the '65 ECF is more clutch than anything Pippen ever did. And that's not even before bringing up what Havlicek did in the '68, '69, and '76 Finals among several other years.

Pippen was better defensively, but Havlicek was better overall especially during his peak.

During their peaks the statistics/productions werent that close either. At two points in his career Havlicek was flirting with almost 30 point triple double averages (29-9-8 and then 28-8-8). Havlicek was the alpha dog in at least 1 championship run, arguably 2.

[QUOTE=Gifted Mind]I've constantly said this and will say it again: Havlicek is the most underrated player on ISH.[/QUOTE]

One of the most underrated players ever at that.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]You ought to be ashamed of yourself making this dumb post.[/QUOTE]


LOL what dumb post? The only one I'm seeing making dumb posts is you. You probably 13 though, I forgive

Scottie Pippen.