Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

Barkley is an idiot. He used to be funny but now he actually takes himself seriously and comes across as ignorant more often than not.

MJ is the GOAT. Kobe will end up close but unless he wins like 2-3 more rings and passes MJ on the scoring list it's just not gonna happen.

LeBron? :facepalm :no:

:kobe:

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]This. NBATV is trying to sell the current NBA. They can't keep paying guys to say, "No, the best has already come. Sorry you missed out. But stick around for some of these other guys."
[/QUOTE]

^^This

Kobe will never be better than MJ

LeBron will never be better than MJ

[QUOTE=ILLsmak]

His stats are sexier than Shaqs, but Shaq had a larger impact.

-Smak[/QUOTE]

Shaq's peak/MVP years were 29/13/3/3/60% shooting. That's pretty damn sexy lol....

It is silly - even the moderate and no biased Lakers fans (and over 30 years old) could tell you that Jordan was better than Kobe and Shaq was the best player during 01-03 three peat - although it is not Kobe fault that it happens during Shaq's prime. However As I wrote several times it is not fair to compare best players only by championships. The simple fact is that MJ was better than KB in amost every aspect at the game.

Lebron is awesome BUT i don't think he has MJ mentality. Maybe he can prove me wrong during the next 3-4 years, which will be defining for his career overall.
Thins year he was more determine and concentrated than previous years. He has the skills, the athletism, the first championship, second olympic gold.
Anyway the everlasting memores for me of him will be a playoff game with Pistons(considered the best defensive team at the time), while with CAVS, where he literally destroy the entire Pistons alone in the 4th quarter with several consecutive baskets, all of them power drives to the basket over 3-4 opposing players. In that sense it was the first time I thought that somebody could surpass Jordan (which I consider the best player from the time I starting watching basketball).

[QUOTE=Money 23]Bron has never been faster or quicker than MJ. Never.

As for strength? Bron is bigger, I don't know if he's STRONGER. People always comment on MJ's unusual strength for his size.

And it doesn't always come from sheer muscle mass, or size.[/QUOTE]
You're an idiot.

jordan is GOAT for many reasons and one of those is his incredible SKILL and TECHNIQUE which lebron lacks severely when compared to the great one

[QUOTE=Da_Realist] How many people are going to watch because they want to hear Barkley explain himself? How many would tune in to hear him say the status quo "Jordan's the best. These guys aren't on that level, but they're good so watch them anyway."?[/QUOTE]

Well for years he would say that about Kobe had no shot even though it was the popular thing to say. I completely disagree with him, but I'm not sure he's just saying it to say it.

Lmao some of you guys are getting all defensive for no reason. Barkley's just trying to bring in ratings.

[QUOTE=ihoopallday]Lmao some of you guys are getting all defensive for no reason. Barkley's just trying to bring in ratings.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I sensed a mile away. I think a lot of people follow the game know that a lot of players are said to say some of these things for ratings. Not to say LeBron isn't off pace, but this a part of that hype and overrating, to an extent.

Just a re-post as to why I consider MJ the GOAT, and why his already legendary resume has built in hypotheticals that would've put him even further away from the nearest competitor.

[QUOTE=Money 23]
MJ's career has the built in mystique of like say a Barry Sanders. Guy retired just a 1,000 or so yards from the all-time rushing title. Which for him was a little less than one full season. He walked away that close to it, and it took Emmitt Smith extra years to pass it, and with a much better offensive line.

By walking away that close, he will forever be attached to the award, while never actually holding it. He walked away at the right time to retain a mystique, to be a legend. Everyone will always comment on how he could've got it if he wanted it.

Same goes for MJ. The man was the UNDISPUTED best player in basketball from '89 - '98. Actually should've been the MVP award winner in '89, '90, '93, and '97.

The man walked away from the sport at the pinnacle of his dominance of it, where he had an unquestionable strangle hold on the throne. Left after just 8 seasons, after the first three peat in decades .. got a statue REAL QUICK outside of a stadium that his grosses got built for the city of Chicago.

He left two years of his absolute peak / prime on the table, which adds even more mystique to his legend.

We could assume (and it is very probable) that there would've been more MVPs, Championships, Finals MVPs, All NBA 1st Teams, Scoring Titles, All NBA 1st Team Defense, Steals Leader, etc. added to his already STUD like resume.

He could've REALISTICALLY been the first alpha dog superstar since the Russell / Cousy Celtics to lead a team to 4x straight championships in 1994. A feat unheard of ... and still yet to be duplicated.

If he played in '94 and the full season of '95, his career point totals would have him sitting pretty near the top next to Kareem, or above him. Along with probable addittional MVPs.

His career as it stands is the best, and then you throw in the missing years of his prime / peak, and even the years of his twilight (1999, 2000, and 2001) and you have a career resume that will never be duplicated.

If he played for the Bulls in '99, 2000, and 2001 ... given his averages in '98 as a 35 year old (28 ppg), add in residual regression. I say in '99 he averages 27 ppg, while also possibly winning another championship if the Bulls core was held together ... then in 2000 he averages 26 ppg, and in 2001 averages 25 ppg.

And mind you, in 2002 as a 39 year old and before that devastating knee injury he was putting up 25 / 5 / 5 ... so these numbers aren't asinine or pulled from the anus.

And don't give me the AlphaDog24 / eliteballer stan response of he wouldn't have been able to hold up. And that he got some magic rest trying to re-invent his body at 30 to work hard daily, trying to master ANOTHER professional sport.

MJ was more durable than Kobe ever has been. As durable as current LeBron, and only had two major injuries in his career. One a freak accident as a young man, and another a lingering knee injury on an old man's body, that just didn't allow him to recover.

With those years ('94, '95) and then twilight years ('99, '00, '01) he's EASILY the all-time leader in scoring. So as it stands his current resume is GOAT, then throw in the mystique of PROBABLE hypotheticals and it isn't even CLOSE.

Guy already should've had like 7 or 8 MVPs, then include the '94 and '95 seasons. Maybe add 2 - 3 rings to his total, bringing his ring count to 8 or 9 (depending if the Bulls stay together in '99) an MVP or two and then the addition of the twilight years where he'd no longer be the best in the league, but still ELITE and putting up big numbers compared to league averages. It's borderline INSANE how great this man was. His athleticism dominated the league, his skill dominated the league, his will power dominated the league, and his intelligence dominated the league.

:biggums:

He re-invented himself and re-molded his game, time and time again to stay relevant, and dominant. There will be no one like this man ever again, and as great as LeBron is ... he doesn't have a lot of the stuff MJ had in his overall arsenal. From a skills or intangibles perspective.

No one's prime / peak touches MJs. His prime arguably lasted from '89 - '98. Almost a full decade. And if he played, I'm pretty sure he still would've been the best player in the game in the lock out shortened 1999 season as well.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Money 23]Just a re-post as to why I consider MJ the GOAT, and why his already legendary resume has built in hypotheticals that would've put him even further away from the nearest competitor.[/QUOTE]


- sons like a bunch of if' and but's....Those of us who actually watched MJ's whole career actually know his place.

- He was the greatest player of the 90's....and probably the greatest player at getting his own shot from anywhere he wanted.

was he the greatest scorer ever? - NO

was he the greatest shooter ever? - NO

was he the greatest defensive player ever? - NO

was he the greatest winner ever ever? - NO ( Not even close actually)

was he the most impactful player ever? - NO ( he actually impacted his teams win/loss column less then any of the top 10 players alltime)

was he the greatest dunker ever? - NO

was he the geratest passer ever? - NO

was he one of the most exciting players ever? - absolutley...and he moved alot of shoes.



but your tired rants about "MJ was the bestest GOAT ...he left 2 years on the table"....is just silly.

He was one of the greatest players ever...no doubt....but I watched his whole career and know too much basketball to say he was better then Magic , or Bird or other alltime greats.

[B]heck...without Pippen( and Phil becoming the true greatest NBA coach ever)..he was real close to becoming a baldheaded Dominique Wilkins.[/B]

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]

He was one of the greatest players ever...no doubt....but I watched his whole career and know too much basketball to say he was better then Magic , or Bird or other alltime greats.

[/QUOTE]

So out of genuine interest, where would he fall on your personal all-time list? I recall you saying to me some time ago, that Bird shouldn't be over Kobe( can't recall if you said that about Magic). Above you say that Jordan wasn't better than Bird or Magic, which would mean you also feel Kobe is above Jordan. But I've never seen you outright declare that Kobe is better than Jordan, just in the same ballpark.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]So out of genuine interest, where would he fall on your personal all-time list? I recall you saying to me some time ago, that Bird shouldn't be over Kobe( can't recall if you said that about Magic). Above you say that Jordan wasn't better than Bird or Magic, which would mean you also feel Kobe is above Jordan. But I've never seen you outright declare that Kobe is better than Jordan, just in the same ballpark.[/QUOTE]


- cot damn...why do the Jordan Mouskateer's get all butthurt when anyone compares or says someone is better?

- I was replying to the silly post above me....Jordan is one of the greatest ever..."by acclamation ( majority opinion)" he is the greatest...but that's the only criteria someone could use......not a bunch of hypothetical "what if's"...or other made up stats......that's all I was saying.

- and once again...my personal alltime lists....does not include players I never watched ( live or followed)...only an idiot would try to rank players they never watched or followed closely.

I never watched Wilt , Russell , Oscar or West...trying to act like I know if they are better then _______ or __________ is silly..( just as I was trying to explain about the post above mine....Poster was trying to use silly criteria to justifyu MJ as bestest)

- From the players I did watch since the early 80's...he probably is Number 1...I could easily see why someone would put Magic ahead of him ( Magic simply impacted his teams more)...

and I don't think one could place Kobe above Jordan yet...but both are very similar players with very similar results...

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]- cot damn...why do the Jordan Mouskateer's get all butthurt when anyone compares or says someone is better?

- I was replying to the silly post above me....Jordan is one of the greatest ever..."by acclamation ( majority opinion)" he is the greatest...but that's the only criteria someone could use......not a bunch of hypothetical "what if's"...or other made up stats......that's all I was saying.

- and once again...my personal alltime lists....does not include players I never watched ( live or followed)...only an idiot would try to rank players they never watched or followed closely.

I never watched Wilt , Russell , Oscar or West...trying to act like I know if they are better then _______ or __________ is silly..( just as I was trying to explain about the post above mine....Poster was trying to use silly criteria to justifyu MJ as bestest)

- From the players I did watch since the early 80's...he probably is Number 1...I could easily see why someone would put Magic ahead of him ( Magic simply impacted his teams more)...

and I don't think one could place Kobe above Jordan yet...but both are very similar players with very similar results...[/QUOTE]

Butthurt? What about my post implies I was offended by anything you said? I was simply curious about where he fell on your all-time ranking, taking into account various things you've said before. Why do you automatically go on the defensive? Fukk, didn't I say 'out of genuine interest'?

For the record, while I personally think Jordan is the best I've seen, I'm not one of those who thinks he's several cuts above guys like Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc. To me they're on the same plane. I don't look at Jordan as being in his own tier of greatness beyond those guys.

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]- sons like a bunch of if' and but's....Those of us who actually watched MJ's whole career actually know his place.

- He was the greatest player of the 90's....and probably the greatest player at getting his own shot from anywhere he wanted.

was he the greatest scorer ever? - NO

was he the greatest shooter ever? - NO

was he the greatest defensive player ever? - NO

was he the greatest winner ever ever? - NO ( Not even close actually)

was he the most impactful player ever? - NO ( he actually impacted his teams win/loss column less then any of the top 10 players alltime)

was he the greatest dunker ever? - NO

was he the geratest passer ever? - NO

was he one of the most exciting players ever? - absolutley...and he moved alot of shoes.



but your tired rants about "MJ was the bestest GOAT ...he left 2 years on the table"....is just silly.

He was one of the greatest players ever...no doubt....but I watched his whole career and know too much basketball to say he was better then Magic , or Bird or other alltime greats.

[B]heck...without Pippen( and Phil becoming the true greatest NBA coach ever)..he was real close to becoming a baldheaded Dominique Wilkins.[/B][/QUOTE]
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
ISH at its best :facepalm

That bolded part is going into that "Stupidest things said at ISH" thread

This is the thing that people do not realize.... Jordan had the complete package, both mental and physical.

On one hand, we have Kobe... who has Jordan's killer mentality, he wanted to kill his opponents and had the balls to put everything on his shoulders, basically go down shooting with no fear of failure. But he was never as physically gifted as Jordan, I'm not saying head to head... but in respect to their peers and eras. Jordan was probably quicker, jump higher, stronger, and bigger hands, etc. This is Kobe's limitation... he always tries to achieve more than he is capable off, hence the lower efficiency.

On the other hand we have Lebron, who is physical freak. I would say more of a freak than Jordan when he first came into the league. But what Lebron lacks is the all in the head... he has this fear of failure, it could be from the product of the world's expectations, but he genuinely cares to much about his perception, like getting the tape confiscated when he got dunked on? Are you kidding me, Jordan would of wanted to kill that guy instead of trying to hide the evidence. That might be the difference between old school and new school mentality... Basically the only thing that can stop Lebron from achieving GOAT status is himself, and usually that is the hardest to overcome. He already ruined himself in my eyes and many others by jumping ship in Cleveland. Tell yourself whatever you want, but that is a HUGE failure in my eyes... joining forces with other top players from your ERA, that is something someone as competitive as Jordan would NEVER DO.

My point is, when it comes to the OVERALL package... Jordan is untouchable..

AlphaPup24 is so cute ...

Jordan not being better than Bird and Magic. That's too funny.

No need to even validate it.

[QUOTE=Money 23]Just a re-post as to why I consider MJ the GOAT, and why his already legendary resume has built in hypotheticals that would've put him even further away from the nearest competitor.[/QUOTE]
True story, MJ is the GOAT not because he was the best scorer, not because he is the most decorated, not because he is the most complete. MJ is the goat because he was the most consistent, managed to convince everyone watching in the 90s that he was unbeatable.

[QUOTE=SpecialQue]Jordan isn't god. I'm pretty sure another player WILL pass him up at some point.[/QUOTE]

The odds of someone passing Jordan is like someone winning the 6 ball lottery twice.

It's funny how Kobe fans try to run down Jordan's achievements, and in doing so they actually push Kobe further down the "all-time great" rankings by exposing his short-comings.

P.S. Jordan never missed the playoffs in his prime, lost a NBA Finals game at home after being up 24 in the first half or lost a deciding NBA Finals game by 39 points. He also won his first title without an all-star teammate. Kobe fans, please rebut.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]This. NBATV is trying to sell the current NBA. They can't keep paying guys to say, "No, the best has already come. Sorry you missed out. But stick around for some of these other guys."

Jordan was so good that... if Lebron becomes better (level of play, not accolades) EVERYONE will know it. Even people that won't want to admit it will have to. He's just not there right now. The NBA and it's television partners are selling the current NBA, not the NBA from 20 years ago. Around the Horn, PTI, Sports Reporters, Halftime shows all exist because arguments and teaser quotes are arranged behind the scenes. You can't get people to watch by saying the best has already happened, stay tuned anyway. How many people are going to watch because they want to hear Barkley explain himself? How many would tune in to hear him say the status quo "Jordan's the best. These guys aren't on that level, but they're good so watch them anyway."?[/QUOTE]

These are great points Realist, but I also think the blame goes to these "Halftime Shows" for insisting on even comparing past players to current ones in the first place. You can't start a topic asking "Can Lebron or Durant ever match Larry Bird's legacy"?, have a panelist say "I believe Lebron's [I]already[/I] past Bird's legacy". and not expect Bird fans to speak up about it.

These shows do this because they know it's a sure shot way to keep both old and new school fans interested in the game; old schoolers watching Lebron to see if he really [I]does[/I] measure up to Bird, and new schoolers believing there's no way Bird can match what Lebron's currently doing. It's a "win-win" business (key word) for them.

[QUOTE]He also won his first title without an all-star teammate.[/QUOTE]

There's nothing to rebut about the Kobe statements and nobody with their head on straight think Kobe > Jordan...

But what's this about ? Yeah, Pippen wasn't an all-star that year. Doesn't mean he was any less of a player, nor does it mean he wasn't an all-star talent.

Pippen was better in 1991 than he was 1990, when he did make the all-star team. And the numbers back that up too. Besides, he could have been replaced on the team instead of Hersey Hawkins that year too when Bird got injured.

Also, clearly stepped his game more in the playoffs in 1991, puts up 22/9/6/2.5/1 on 50%. That's also better than Pippen's 1990 playoff run. So really, what if he didn't make the all-star team that year ? Doesn't make his contributions any less and doesn't make Pippen any less of a player.

I know your trying to get at the Kobe stans, but that point is way off when not looked into context.

Lebron is the only one that has any shot to surpass MJ, so if you want another GOAT, you better hope Lebron can do it cause I doubt anyone else will come close any time soon.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]There's nothing to rebut about the Kobe statements and nobody with their head on straight think Kobe > Jordan...

But what's this about ? Yeah, Pippen wasn't an all-star that year. Doesn't mean he was any less of a player, nor does it mean he wasn't an all-star talent.

Pippen was better in 1991 than he was 1990, when he did make the all-star team. And the numbers back that up too. Besides, he could have been replaced on the team instead of Hersey Hawkins that year too when Bird got injured.

Also, clearly stepped his game more in the playoffs in 1991, puts up 22/9/6/2.5/1 on 50%. That's also better than Pippen's 1990 playoff run. So really, what if he didn't make the all-star team that year ? Doesn't make his contributions any less and doesn't make Pippen any less of a player.

I know your trying to get at the Kobe stans, but that point is way off when not looked into context.[/QUOTE]

I'm not trying to run down Pippen, he was one of my favorite players growing up. It's just interesting that this forum is one of the only places that tries to elevate Pippen to an elite first option in the attempt to belittle Jordan's accomplishments. And yes, he wasn't an all-star in the year the Bulls won their first title so technically Jordan won without an all-star teammate that year.

I like that you mentioned context though, do Kobe stans look at the context of Pippen's rookie/early career stats and his lack of leadership on teams he played on without Jordan as a teammate? No, they don't. They're the republicans of NBA fans.

[QUOTE=ripthekik]:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
ISH at its best :facepalm

That bolded part is going into that "Stupidest things said at ISH" thread[/QUOTE]


you must have never watched Nique in the mid 80's....Most fans thought Nique was better then MJ....or at least equals.

I remember still having arguements who was a better dunker/finisher in traffic..anything Jordan could do...Dominique could do..and Nique's Hawks looked to be a legit contenders ...meanwhile Jordan's teams looked lost.

anyone saying Jordan and Nique were not comparible from 84' - 89' are kidding themselves. ( or there are basketball illiterate kids who never saw Nique play)

[QUOTE=DJ Leon Smith]I'm not trying to run down Pippen, he was one of my favorite players growing up. It's just interesting that this forum is one of the only places that tries to elevate Pippen to an elite first option in the attempt to belittle Jordan's accomplishments. And yes, he wasn't an all-star in the year the Bulls won their first title so technically Jordan won without an all-star teammate that year.

I like that you mentioned context though, do Kobe stans look at the context of Pippen's rookie/early career stats and [B][SIZE="4"]his lack of leadership on teams he played on without Jordan as a teammate[/SIZE]?[/B] No, they don't. They're the republicans of NBA fans.[/QUOTE]


:confusedshrug: WTF?...he was on many great teams without MJ..and did a better job of leading the Bull's without Jordan...then vice versa.

:facepalm @ Bull's fans who degrade Pippen's leadership without MJ....but disregard Jordan horrible leadership without Pippen...:lol (just look at his time in Washington as the Vet leader)

sad

[QUOTE=DJ Leon Smith]I'm not trying to run down Pippen, he was one of my favorite players growing up. It's just interesting that this forum is one of the only places that tries to elevate Pippen to an elite first option in the attempt to belittle Jordan's accomplishments. And yes, he wasn't an all-star in the year the Bulls won their first title so technically Jordan won without an all-star teammate that year.

I like that you mentioned context though, do Kobe stans look at the context of Pippen's rookie/early career stats and his lack of leadership on teams he played on without Jordan as a teammate? No, they don't. They're the republicans of NBA fans.[/QUOTE]

Okay, fair enough. Like you said, technically, Jordan did win without an all-star teammate that year... that's if we don't actually put into context. My bad, it just kinda bugs me, since he was better than some players that did make the all-star team that year, regardless. I agree, people saying Pippen in an elite first option to be belittle Jordan's accomplishments don't have a proper argument to back it up. He will always be a great second option from both ends, not the undeserved propping up he gets.

Yeah, Kobe stans kinda miss out on the context part. I've also stated in the past that they were teammates before rookie Pippen that were playing better around that season and the playoffs (namely Charles Oakley), so it's dumb to say statements like "Jordan never got out of the first round with Pippen", when Oakley and arguably Horace Grant were better than Pippen that year.

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]you must have never watched Nique in the mid 80's....Most fans thought Nique was better then MJ....or at least equals.[/QUOTE]

No one thought that, ever.

Great forum you've got here Jeff.

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]:confusedshrug: WTF?...he was on many great teams without MJ..and did a better job of leading the Bull's without Jordan...then vice versa.[/QUOTE]

How many titles did Pippen win with Portland and Houston?

P.S. Learn how to use apostrophes. Or as you might say it, "apostrophe's".

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Okay, fair enough. Like you said, technically, Jordan did win without an all-star teammate that year... that's if we don't actually put into context. My bad, it just kinda bugs me, since he was better than some players that did make the all-star team that year, regardless. I agree, people saying Pippen in an elite first option to be belittle Jordan's accomplishments don't have a proper argument to back it up. He will always be a great second option from both ends, not the undeserved propping up he gets.

Yeah, Kobe stans kinda miss out on the context part. I've also stated in the past that they were teammates before rookie Pippen that were playing better around that season and the playoffs (namely Charles Oakley), so it's dumb to say that "Jordan never got out of the first round with Pippen", when Oakley and arguably Horace Grant were better than Pippen that year.[/QUOTE]


Honest question....did you even watch Pippen's Rookie season?

the man played great in the Post season...and was a much better post season player then Grant....in fact he was a starter putting up nearly double double's..and coming up huge against the Cavs.

sirously..did you watch him play?

[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]Lebron is the only one that has any shot to surpass MJ, so if you want another GOAT, you better hope Lebron can do it cause I doubt anyone else will come close any time soon.[/QUOTE]

Jordan swept all of his Finals appearances against direct peers. No old players in their twilight years, no young bucks who didn't know how to handle the big stage. Jordan didn't choke, he "stepped up" or at the very least, still made his presence known through all of his title runs.

Lebron went invisible in 2 Finals already during his career. Those things tend to affect a player's overall ranking in a GOAT discussion. He'll be "One of Greats", but GOAT is already too late for Lebron.

[QUOTE=DJ Leon Smith]How many titles did Pippen win with Portland and Houston?

P.S. Learn how to use apostrophes. Or as you might say it, "apostrophe's".[/QUOTE]


none...the same amount Jordan won without Pippen....

except Pippen's teams wern't stepping stone's...L'MAO'

back in my pocket's you goe's

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]the man played great in the Post season...and was a much better post season player then Grant....in fact he was a starter putting up nearly double double's..and coming up huge against the Cavs.[/QUOTE]

Were just talking about the Cavs series in 1988 ?

Yes, Pippen started... 1 game... the last game of that series, which turned out great for the Bulls. Before that, he didn't have a game anywhere close to his game 5 or had no impact at all.

I never said Grant was better. I said it was arguable between them THAT year. Charles Oakley was better that series though.

[QUOTE]sirously..did you watch him play?[/QUOTE]

Yes I did watch him play, he was one of my favourite players growing up.

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]none...the same amount Jordan won without Pippen....

except Pippen's teams wern't stepping stone's...L'MAO'

back in my pocket's you goe's[/QUOTE]

How many NBA Finals MVPs did Pippen win, with our without Jordan?

We can play this game all day. Keep digging that hole.

Also, how many NBA Finals games did Jordan lose at home after being up 24 points at half-time and how many NBA Finals deciding games did he lose by 39 points? You still haven't answered those questions.

Oh and how many times did Jordan miss the playoffs in his prime. Feel free to answer that one as well. I've got all day.

[QUOTE=DJ Leon Smith]How many NBA Finals MVPs did Pippen win, with our without Jordan?

We can play this game all day. Keep digging that hole.

Also, how many NBA Finals games did Jordan lose at home after being up 24 points at half-time and how many NBA Finals deciding games did he lose by 39 points? You still haven't answered those questions.

Oh and how many times did Jordan miss the playoffs in his prime. Feel free to answer that one as well. I've got all day.[/QUOTE]


how many all defensive teams did MJ make without Pippen?...what about vice versa?

How many playoff games did MJ win without Pippen?....what about vice versa?

how many times did MJ get swept in the first round without Pippen?...what about vice versa?

come at me bro.....I forgot more hoop destroying Brain cell's after double dribble marathons....then you will ever know.

we can do this all dey ( thumps chest)

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]how many all defensive teams did MJ make without Pippen?

How many playoff games did MJ win without Pippen?....what about vice versa?

how many times did MJ get swept in the first round without Pippen?...what about vice versa?

come at me bro.....I forgot more hoop destroying Brain cell's after double dribble marathons....then you will ever know.

we can do this all dey ( thumps chest)[/QUOTE]

You didn't answer one Kobe question.

I rest my case.

Jeff, the floor is yours.

P.S. "how many all defensive teams did MJ make without Pippen?" LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[QUOTE=Nevaeh]Jordan swept all of his Finals appearances against direct peers. No old players in their twilight years, no young bucks who didn't know how to handle the big stage. Jordan didn't choke, he "stepped up" or at the very least, still made his presence known through all of his title runs.

Lebron went invisible in 2 Finals already during his career. Those things tend to affect a player's overall ranking in a GOAT discussion. He'll be "One of Greats", but GOAT is already too late for Lebron.[/QUOTE]
See I don't understand this logic because since when was not making the Finals better than making the Finals?

I understand if you want to give Lebron a blackmark for his 2011 Finals but why his 2007 Finals?

Nobody expected him to go there and nobody really even expected him and his team to compete in that series. It is serious revisionist history to blame Lebron for his 2007 Finals loss.

Jordan's resume is practically perfect but my GOAT ranking is not based on resume/accomplishments. It is based on how good you are and Lebron could very well be better than MJ ever was.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Were just talking about the Cavs series in 1988 ?

Yes, Pippen started... 1 game... the last game of that series, which turned out great for the Bulls. Before that, he didn't have a game anywhere close to his game 5 or had no impact at all.

I never said Grant was better. I said it was arguable between them THAT year. Charles Oakley was better that series though.



Yes I did watch him play, he was one of my favourite players growing up.[/QUOTE]


- he played Great in Games 4 and 5 ( the deciding game 5 he was the difference)..Game 4 he played 30 minutes and had 15 points 5rebs and 2 Blk's...

no impact ?...especially for a rook?..RUserial?

- he started all of the games vs the Pistons.

recap:

By the end of the season Pippen was good enough to start in the playoff's...and come up huge for the Bull's in the Game 5 vs the Cavs...to help get them past the first round...

for the first time in what ...like 18 seasons

[QUOTE=DJ Leon Smith]You didn't answer one Kobe question.

I rest my case.

Jeff, the floor is yours.

[B]P.S. "how many all defensive teams did MJ make without Pippen?" LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL[/B][/QUOTE]


none....meanwhile Pippen made multiple all defensive teams without MJ...

The Bull's without Pippen and just MJ...were a horrible defensive team...and had no defensive presence what so ever.


(opens pocket)...get back son.

[QUOTE=Nevaeh]Jordan swept all of his Finals appearances against direct peers. No old players in their twilight years, no young bucks who didn't know how to handle the big stage. Jordan didn't choke, he "stepped up" or at the very least, still made his presence known through all of his title runs.

[B][U]Lebron went invisible in 2 Finals[/U][/B] already during his career. Those things tend to affect a player's overall ranking in a GOAT discussion. He'll be "One of Greats", but GOAT is already too late for Lebron.[/QUOTE]

OK...Lebron performed inexcusably horribly in the '11 Finals. We get that. But seriously are we going to hold his legacy responsible for losing in the '07 Finals in which he was literally the leader at the age of 22 of a team that few people outside of Cleveland even expected to get that far? Would his legacy be better if he had dominated the '07 ECF but lost there in order to maintain a good Finals win %?