Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]What I hate about these lists is that it will be flooded with big men, just because they're big. And that means I'm gonna see Kareem and even Shaq on lists...and that's atrocious.

Russell, Hakeem, Robinson, Walton, Howard, Wilt, Thurmond, Garnett, Pippen, Jordan.


I think that's my 10.[/QUOTE]

That's not a bad list (I'm not sure what my order would be, but there's a very good chance those ten comprise a good deal of the ten most impactful; from my understanding Thurmond should be ahead of Wilt, possibly second overall). I think I'd sub in either Duncan, Ewing, or Wallace for Jordan (where do you have those three, btw?) but it's not a deal breaker.

[QUOTE=fpliii]That's not a bad list (I'm not sure what my order would be, but there's a very good chance those ten comprise a good deal of the ten most impactful; from my understanding Thurmond should be ahead of Wilt, possibly second overall). I think I'd sub in either Duncan, Ewing, or Wallace for Jordan (where do you have those three, btw?) but it's not a deal breaker.[/QUOTE]



Not sure...I think Oakley is forgotten about. He was usually considered a top 5 defender in the game, tho he has only two All-Defensive selections (one 1st Team) to show for it. Wallace is the best defender of those 3. I think Ewing is abetter defender than Duncan. He was a better shot-blocker and he really deterred guys from driving to the lane. He guarded that rim so well, guarded the post so well, was such a smart help defender (like Duncan). He was physically limited after 1992 but he was still elite. Prior to that he was so much better.

They may be in the top 15 but there could be guys I'm forgetting. I've seen enough of Moncrief to know he's great but maybe not enough to rank him. I'd have to include Dennis Rodman. I think Gary Payton deserves placement. And, I forgot, Mutombo was better than the 3 you listed...at least for me he was.

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]Not sure...I think Oakley is forgotten about. He was usually considered a top 5 defender in the game, tho he has only two All-Defensive selections (one 1st Team) to show for it. Wallace is the best defender of those 3. I think Ewing is abetter defender than Duncan. He was a better shot-blocker and he really deterred guys from driving to the lane. He guarded that rim so well, guarded the post so well, was such a smart help defender (like Duncan). He was physically limited after 1992 but he was still elite. Prior to that he was so much better.

They may be in the top 15 but there could be guys I'm forgetting. I've seen enough of Moncrief to know he's great but maybe not enough to rank him. I'd have to include Dennis Rodman. I think Gary Payton deserves placement. And, I forgot, Mutombo was better than the 3 you listed...at least for me he was.[/QUOTE]

Hm I think we differ on Deke (we'll have to agree to disagree, since from the last thread we were both firmly entrenched in our stances), but I agree about everything else.

Let me also throw Bobby Jones' name out there.

Duncan
KG
Pippen
Bowen
Payton

Ain't nobody scoring on this team.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Shawn Marion should at least be on the short list.


but my top ten would be:

by position, it's too hard just doing a ten. I can narrow it to ten latter.


[B]Center[/B]
1 Bill Russell
2 Wilt Chamberlain
3 Nate Thurmond
4 Hakeem Olajuwon
5 Dikembe Mutombo
6 Lew Alcindor
7 Bill Walton
8 Ben Wallace
9 David Robinson
10 Alonzo Mourning



[B]Forward[/B]
1 Dennis Rodman
2 Scottie Pippen
3 Kevin Garnett
4 Tim Duncan
5 Gus Johnson
6 Dave Debusschere
7 Michael Cooper
8 Ron Artest
9 Bobby Jones
10 Maurice Lucas


[B]Guards[/B]
1 Walt Frazier
2 Sidney Moncrief
3 Gary Payton
4 Dennis Johnson
5 Michael Jordan
6 Norm Van Lier
7 Joe Dumars
8 K.C. Jones
9 Jerry West
10 Jason Kidd[/QUOTE]


You can't possibly leave McHale off your forward list.

Didn't see this post.

[QUOTE=fpliii]Hm I think we differ on Deke (we'll have to agree to disagree, since from the last thread we were both firmly entrenched in our stances), but I agree about everything else.

Let me also throw Bobby Jones' name out there.[/QUOTE]


I don't remember having a discussion Mutombo...what were you feelings there?

Bobby Jones is a good addition...as is Kevin McHale...in fact, remembering him is gonna make this tough on me.

I forgot Alonzo. I think he's also better than any of those 3. I saw someone put Kareem on the list, but listed him as Lew Alcindor. I don't know if he was implying anything, but that would be one way I could consider Kareem for the list...tho I still wouldn't put him in the top 20.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Pat Ewing anchored one of the top defenses of all time, and no one has him on their list. You are all just haters or just dumb. Which is it?

Mourning ahead of Pat :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Walton ahead of Pat :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]


In a list more specific than a GOAT list, leeway is given for actual games played...to a point. I think Walton does enough to qualify and it's legitimate to suggest he's the best defender to play, after Bill Russell. Thurmond and Wilt would be up for discussion and I think Hakeem and Robinson are clearly ahead of them both. And while people won't acknowledge it, Dwight Howard deserves a ton of mention. He's as good as I've seen since I've been watching.


When he was healthy Walton was better than Pat. Alonzo and Dikembe are closer. I have too much of a memory of post 92 Ewing, who was all-time but not nearly as good a defender as he was before. I think Alonzo could very well be in front of him. Tho I would take Ewing over Duncan.

[B]10 best defensive bigs i have seen (PF/C):[/B]

Hakeem Olajuwon (He is my #1, the rest is in no order)
Dennis Rodman
Dikembe Mutombo
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
David Robinson
Alonzo Mourning
Kevin Garnett
Ben Wallace
Dwight Howard
Tim Duncan

[B]10 best defensive perimeter guys i have seen (PG/SG/SF):[/B]

Scottie Pippen (He is my #1, the rest is in no order)
Bobby Jones
Sidney Moncrief
Lebron James
Gary Payton
Dennis Johnson
Michael Jordan
Joe Dumars
Michael Cooper
Ron Artest

PS: Shame on you for disregarding Lebron, he is as versatile of a defender as anybody was in NBA history, infact only one guy was that versatile defensively and his name was Scottie Pippen...

[QUOTE=pauk][B]10 best defensive bigs i have seen (PF/C):[/B]

Hakeem Olajuwon (He is my #1, the rest is in no order)
Dennis Rodman
Dikembe Mutombo
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
David Robinson
Alonzo Mourning
Kevin Garnett
Ben Wallace
Dwight Howard
Tim Duncan

[B]10 best defensive perimeter guys i have seen (PG/SG/SF):[/B]

Scottie Pippen (He is my #1, the rest is in no order)
Bobby Jones
Sidney Moncrief
[B][SIZE="4"]Lebron James[/SIZE][/B]
Gary Payton
Dennis Johnson
Michael Jordan
Joe Dumars
Michael Cooper
Ron Artest[/QUOTE]


:roll: :lol :oldlol:

[QUOTE=dh144498]:roll: :lol :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Lebron is a soon 7 x 1st all-defensive team player who was a runner-up for defensive player of the year and in talks for that award ever since, a guy who last year had the most 1st all-defensive team votes (even more than the guy who won the DPOY that year).... a guy who defends PG-SG-SF-PF-C like nobody else could, his defensive versatility can only be matched by Scottie Pippen in NBA history...... speaking of Pippen, he said that Lebron is the best defensive player in the NBA.... im sure what is the best defensive perimeter guy i ever seen knows slightly what he is talking about better than at least you?

No, the only one that needs to be laughed at is yourself dh11414444343439434989849888

[QUOTE=pauk]Lebron is a soon 7 x 1st all-defensive team player who was a runner-up for defensive player of the year and in talks for that award ever since, a guy who last year had the most 1st all-defensive team votes (even more than the guy who won the DPOY that year).... [B] a guy who defends PG-SG-SF-PF-C like nobody else could, his defensive versatility can only be matched by Scottie Pippen in NBA history.[/B]..... speaking of Pippen, he said that Lebron is the best defensive player in the NBA.... im sure what is the best defensive perimeter guy i ever seen knows slightly what he is talking about better than at least you?

No, the only one that needs to be laughed at is yourself dh11414444343439434989849888[/QUOTE]

:lol

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOMKqwsEm8g[/url]

never forget,baby

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0WVneiYHjM[/url]

pip rodman and jordan have to be serious candidates

[QUOTE=10x91= 5 Rings]:lol

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOMKqwsEm8g[/url]

never forget,baby

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0WVneiYHjM[/url][/QUOTE]

Rodman didnt & couldnt guard PGs/SGs.... especially not shut down speedy gonzaleses like Derrick Rose... Pippen & Lebron could...

My point is simply that i think its not ludicrous to mention Lebron when talking about the best perimeter playing defenders of all time, Lebron isnt/wasnt the best guy to defend the perimeter nor the best guy to defend the interior, he isnt the best guy to defend strictly PGs or SGs or SFs or PFs or Cs..... but he can do what neither of those guys could, which is to defend them ALL, any player..... its the overall/allround defense in its entirety, the versatility, being able to defend almost all positions/players (except for the likes of Shaq) which makes him a great overall defender and one of the greatest overall/allround defenders of all time... because of this it makes Lebron probably the greatest team / help defender you can have today, he can ballhawk and help cover any man on the floor, interior or perimeter or hunt down any speed demon in the open court and he has great IQ/leadership (extremly vocal) on the defensive end....

[QUOTE=pauk]Rodman didnt & couldnt guard PGs/SGs.... especially not shut down speedy gonzaleses like Derrick Rose... Pippen & Lebron could...
[/QUOTE]

:facepalm

Maybe that's the case with 90's Rodamn, but 80's Rodman was every bit - and then some - the perimeter defender that Lebron is. Rodman is easily the most versatile defender I've seen in my lifetime, and I say that with very little hesitation.

[QUOTE=pauk]Rodman didnt & couldnt guard PGs/SGs.... especially not shut down speedy gonzaleses like Derrick Rose... Pippen could...[/QUOTE]

You must be a little kid . You didn`t see Rodman with the Bad Boys. He could make every players life miserable. And he would make even your favorite player`s life miserable. No matter if he is a pg,sg or c.

Here is just a little new york times article i found from 1990.

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/08/sports/rodman-is-the-key-to-piston-defense.html[/url]

[QUOTE]
Rodman will inevitably be a pivotal player in the four-of-seven-game Eastern Conference playoff series between the Pistons and the Knicks, which begins here Tuesday night. On a team that prides itself on defense, Rodman is the master. Standing 6 feet 8 inches tall, with a wiry but deceptively strong 210-pound build, [B]Rodman has the lateral movement to defend quick players[/B], the strength to defend physical players and the leaping ability to defend taller players. He is also one of the league's most tenacious rebounders, a player capable of grabbing 20 or more rebounds in a game....[/QUOTE]

Don`t make me embarrass you,son.

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]What I hate about these lists is that it will be flooded with big men, just because they're big. And that means I'm gonna see Kareem and even Shaq on lists, which is where the problem lies.
[/QUOTE]

I don't really see the problem with that. Big men are almost always your most impactful defensive players, just like guards are almost always your most impactful offensive players.

My list of "top" offensive players would be mostly guards and forwards

Magic, Bird, Jordan, Oscar, Lebron, Nash, ect.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]I don't really see the problem with that. Big men are almost always your most impactful defensive players, [B]just like guards are almost always your most impactful offensive players[/B].

My list of "top" offensive players would be mostly guards and forwards

Magic, Bird, Jordan, Oscar, Lebron, Nash, ect.[/QUOTE]

Have you conveniently forgotten KAJ, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan? If not, then you should probably qualify your statement with "in (very) recent years."

[QUOTE=rmt]Have you conveniently forgotten KAJ, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan? If not, then you should probably qualify your statement with "in (very) recent years."[/QUOTE]

I have not.

Based on heavy statistical research into this exact subject, Shaq is the only player from that list that's in the same category as the guys I mentioned, and he'd be at the bottom of that pack.

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]rebounds are great. i'm just saying you get more when your a big man. and its totally different than offense or defense. its grabbing a basketball thats in the air. its niether stopping a guy from shooting or shooting over someone

its favored towards big men because theyre taller

so to just say someones a better defender because theyre taller and their position is beside the basket is kind of absurd


and blocks are verry usefull aswell. but its mainly a big mans game. you cant judge perimeter defense on blocks because coaches teach you not to try and block three point shooters or jump shooters because theyel bait you into the foul

contesting shots and staying infront of your defender is guard defense. and thats verry hard to measure in the box score other than the apposing team players points/fg%/turnovers

when it comes down to it you cannot compare big men to guards in terms of defense because its 2 completely different types of defense.

big men almost always win the DPOTY award because of this unfair advantage in recorded statistics and rebounding counting


[B]when infact a guard who averages 6-7 rebounds is more impressive than a center who averages 9-10[/B]

and blocking a shot 2 times a game is not more valuable that stopping a great scorer from putting up 30 points


its actually harder to be a perimeter defender because the best scorers are guards/small forwards[/QUOTE]

It's not about what's more impressive. It never has been. This is something you clearly don't get.

If you have two players, one who averages 10 rebounds and one who averages 7, the first player has more of an impact on the boards, regardless of anything else. It's more impressive when Rondo averages 5.6 boards than when Lopez averages 7, but Lopez has more of an impact on the boards.

This goes for all areas of basketball. A 20-foot fadeaway is WAY more impressive than a layup 3 point play, but the layup is more effective.

Yeah, big men have an unfair advantage when it comes to DPOY awards and defensive all-time rankings, but that doesn't mean we have to adjust by putting players up there who don't have as big of an impact simply because "it's more impressive" what they do with less.

Even in today's NBA, a dominant defensive big can impact the game more than a perimeter defender. You can isolate the great perimeter defender on the weakside and keep him out of the play, but any path to an easy shot in the paint has to go through a your dominant defensive big (assuming you have one).

Edit: Didn't see that someone had brought this up.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]You bring up an interesting point here. It's related to a question I've asked on here before, but for which I really didn't get a response. What helps a team more: a pg who grabs 7 rebounds a game, or a center who grabs 9 rebounds a game? Is the center even helping his team at all?[/QUOTE]

I think it's clearly the center, ceteris parabis.

How the hell is Kobe nominated. His defense is the worst among those listed.

[QUOTE=Djahjaga]It's not about what's more impressive. It never has been. This is something you clearly don't get.

If you have two players, one who averages 10 rebounds and one who averages 7, the first player has more of an impact on the boards, regardless of anything else. It's more impressive when Rondo averages 5.6 boards than when Lopez averages 7, but Lopez has more of an impact on the boards.

This goes for all areas of basketball. A 20-foot fadeaway is WAY more impressive than a layup 3 point play, but the layup is more effective.

Yeah, big men have an unfair advantage when it comes to DPOY awards and defensive all-time rankings, but that doesn't mean we have to adjust by putting players up there who don't have as big of an impact simply because "it's more impressive" what they do with less.

Even in today's NBA, a dominant defensive big can impact the game more than a perimeter defender. You can isolate the great perimeter defender on the weakside and keep him out of the play, but any path to an easy shot in the paint has to go through a your dominant defensive big (assuming you have one).

Edit: Didn't see that someone had brought this up.



I think it's clearly the center, ceteris parabis.[/QUOTE]

So a center that makes the average team worse at rebounding is better than a guard who improve's the average team's rebounding?

Is the purpose of a great rebounder to put up good stats or is it to help his team?

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]Didn't see this post.




I don't remember having a discussion Mutombo...what were you feelings there?

Bobby Jones is a good addition...as is Kevin McHale...in fact, remembering him is gonna make this tough on me.

I forgot Alonzo. I think he's also better than any of those 3. I saw someone put Kareem on the list, but listed him as Lew Alcindor. I don't know if he was implying anything, but that would be one way I could consider Kareem for the list...tho I still wouldn't put him in the top 20.[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=283177[/url]

McHale was great.

I think Zo has a solid case for a top 10 spot as well. Kareem 70-74 from what I understand was great defensively, but as I said in the Magic thread 75-78 seems to have been subpar.

[QUOTE=fpliii][url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=283177[/url]

McHale was great.

I think Zo has a solid case for a top 10 spot as well. Kareem 70-74 from what I understand was great defensively, but as I said in the Magic thread 75-78 seems to have been subpar.[/QUOTE]

77' Kareem was a very good defender.

[QUOTE=fpliii][url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=283177[/url]

McHale was great.

I think Zo has a solid case for a top 10 spot as well. Kareem 70-74 from what I understand was great defensively, but as I said in the Magic thread 75-78 seems to have been subpar.[/QUOTE]



Oh that was you who created that thread :oldlol:


I wonder if there is an argument to be made for evaluating Kareem, the Alcindor days.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]77' Kareem was a very good defender.[/QUOTE]

I think so, but based on what I've seen/read about his time in Milwaukee (through the 74 Finals) he was much more of a dominant presence.

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]Oh that was you who created that thread :oldlol:


I wonder if there is an argument to be made for evaluating Kareem, the Alcindor days.[/QUOTE]

:cheers:

[QUOTE=DatAsh]So a center that makes the average team worse at rebounding is better than a guard who improve's the average team's rebounding?

Is the purpose of a great rebounder to put up good stats or is it to help his team?[/QUOTE]

Having an above average rebounding PG is only worth it if you have at least average rebounding at every other position. The problem is, having a great rebounding PG doesn't say anything about the rebounding of the rest of the players on your team. You can have the best rebounding PG of all time, but if you have anemic rebounders at every other position, it won't make you a good rebounding team.

Good rebounding guards are such a commodity because even average rebounding bigs can be relied upon to grab like 7 boards, so this offers you a huge advantage, assuming you can get average rebounding bigs. You're definitely right on this point. Practically, you would want someone like Rondo over a 7-boards-per-game big because you can just sign an average center to grab 7 boards, but you won't find a guard like Rondo on the waiver wire.

But that's not the argument we're having. We're asking, is a below average rebounding big more impactful on the boards than an above average rebounding small?

If you make no other assumptions about the rest of the team, the big is more impactful on the boards.

Yeah, sure, maybe Rondo has more talent for boarding than Lopez does, and the only reason Brook gets more boards is because he's a foot taller, but the fact remains that he gets more boards. It doesn't matter why. You said it well in your other post, "such is life."




Anyway, the original point stemmed from Kennethgriffin's continuous "this is more impressive, so it's better" argument. Bigs are almost always more impactful on D than smalls. Yes, they have a huge, unfair advantage. Yes, I'm frankly way more impressed when someone like MJ or GP or Bowen can dominate a game defensively than when Roy Hibbert or even Mutombo do it. But that doesn't make them better defenders than the bigs (though, I'm not sure MJ and GP aren't better than Hibbert lol I'm just saying, more impressive doesn't necessarily mean better/more impactful).

[QUOTE=pauk]Lebron is a soon 7 x 1st all-defensive team player who was a runner-up for defensive player of the year and in talks for that award ever since, a guy who last year had the most 1st all-defensive team votes (even more than the guy who won the DPOY that year).... a guy who defends PG-SG-SF-PF-C like nobody else could, his defensive versatility can only be matched by Scottie Pippen in NBA history...... speaking of Pippen, he said that Lebron is the best defensive player in the NBA.... im sure what is the best defensive perimeter guy i ever seen knows slightly what he is talking about better than at least you?

No, the only one that needs to be laughed at is yourself dh11414444343439434989849888[/QUOTE]

why you neg me? :(
I'm only simply stating something that is potentially laughable, his defense is slightly overrated. especially that part about him defending every position...

[QUOTE=dh144498]why you neg me? :(
I'm only simply stating something that is potentially laughable, his defense is slightly overrated. especially that part about him defending every position...[/QUOTE]

negged.

I'm skipping Wilt and Russell so I can give more players shine for once.
1. Olajuwon
2. David Robinson
3. Gary Payton
4. Scottie Pippen
5. Tim Duncan
6. Patrick Ewing
7. Ben Wallace
8. Dennis Rodman
9. Michael Jordan
10. Dikembe Mutumbo

HM: Dwight Howard, Prime Kobe, Mark Eaton, Metta World Peace, Kevin Garnett, S. Moncrief, McHale, Prime Shaq,Kareem, Bruce Bowen, Marcus Camby.

1 - Bill Russell
2 - Ben Wallace
3 - Nate Thurmond
4 - Hakeem Olajuwon
5 - Tim Duncan
6 - Bill Walton
7 - Wilt Chamberlain
8 - David Robinson
9 - Dwight Howard
10 - Patrick Ewing

Kobe

Dennis Rodman. Not to many nba players took on the challenge on guarding Shaq and having success add it. Playing defense for almost all 48min.

1. Bill Russell
2. Dennis Rodman
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Gary Payton
5. Ben Wallace
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Tim Duncan
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Bill Walton
10. Scottie Pippen

next in line:
Kawhi Leonard
Kareem Abdul Jabbar

I think perimeter defense is greatly underrated. It's easy for big guys to send shots back and tower over people, how GP and Blaylock lock down and hound ball-handlers are the best i've seen, so special mention to them.

wtf is Moses doing on that list?

[QUOTE=wally_world]1. Bill Russell
2. Dennis Rodman
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Gary Payton
5. Ben Wallace
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Tim Duncan
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Bill Walton
10. Scottie Pippen

next in line:
Kawhi Leonard
Kareem Abdul Jabbar

I think perimeter defense is greatly underrated. It's easy for big guys to send shots back and tower over people, how GP and Blaylock lock down and hound ball-handlers are the best i've seen, so special mention to them.

wtf is Moses doing on that list?[/QUOTE]

Your point like thinking Centers underrated on passing/playmaking . It's nature of the game , bigs always has more impact on defensive side . Rim protection is main reason of that .

[QUOTE=feyki]Your point like thinking Centers underrated on passing/playmaking . It's nature of the game , bigs always has more impact on defensive side . Rim protection is main reason of that .[/QUOTE]

They do have bigger impact on the defensive end, but that doesn't mean they're the better defender ;) which is why i have a few guards/wings in there

[QUOTE=wally_world]They do have bigger impact on the defensive end, but that doesn't mean they're the better defender ;) which is why i have a few guards/wings in there[/QUOTE]

I agree with that . Gary Payton,Pippen,Rodman were one of the greatest man to man defenders .

:cheers:

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Shawn Marion should at least be on the short list.


but my top ten would be:

by position, it's too hard just doing a ten. I can narrow it to ten latter.


[B]Center[/B]
1 Bill Russell
2 Wilt Chamberlain
3 Nate Thurmond
4 Hakeem Olajuwon
5 Dikembe Mutombo
6 Lew Alcindor
7 Bill Walton
8 Ben Wallace
9 David Robinson
10 Alonzo Mourning



[B]Forward[/B]
1 Dennis Rodman
2 Scottie Pippen
3 Kevin Garnett
4 Tim Duncan
5 Gus Johnson
6 Dave Debusschere
7 Michael Cooper
8 Ron Artest
9 Bobby Jones
10 Maurice Lucas


[B]Guards[/B]
1 Walt Frazier
2 Sidney Moncrief
3 Gary Payton
4 Dennis Johnson
5 Michael Jordan
6 Norm Van Lier
7 Joe Dumars
8 K.C. Jones
9 Jerry West
10 Jason Kidd[/QUOTE]

This is a really good list. I would put the Big O on ahead of Jason Kidd.