Dennis Rodman on the 2nd three-peat Bulls was so overrated

[quote=andgar923]I agree, and I know it seems as tho some of us are knocking him (I'm not), but when all he does is focus on rebounding his numbers are gonna be higher than somebody that's asked to do other things offensively.

Yes setting screens matter, but after that he positions to 'rebound' and nothing else. When other players set screens, they set them to possibly get the ball to shoot. We've seen Rodman pad his rebounding at least once every single game (often more). Not to say he wouldn't be a great rebounder or that he wasn't, but his stats are somewhat misleading.

There's no doubt that the Bulls don't win without his contributions, I don't think anybody has argued that (not to say you said it). But he wasn't the defensive juggernaut that he was when he was a Piston, and he never LOCKED DOWN anybody like some have even stated.[/quote]

Question...who...and I mean ever..."locks down" bigtime scorers who are bigmen?

Maybe Wilt when he was really up for a matchup?

Lets say from 75-now. Who ever just...locked down the Shaqs, Malones, Barkleys, Robinsons, Mchales, and so on?

Rodman(like a few others) got as close as can be expected but he didnt stop them...and it wasnt expected. A great one on one defender in the frontcourt isnt supposed to harrass a guy into a 6-19 shooting night like say...Gary Payton might to a point guard.

Rodman was the NBA version of a great man to man corner in the NFL. Hes not great because he can keep an all time great from a catch. Hes great because he can guard an all time great by himself and not allow that players presence to benefit his teammates as much as usual.

Hes not gonna stop Shaq. Or Malone. Or Barkley. Hes gonna get up for the matchup and guard them hard and get in their heads and kick and brawl and whatever he has to do. But he makes it personal. And that is the key.

When you dont have to collapse into the paint to keep a guy from dropping 40 he has to beat you himself because his teammates arent used to picking up the slack when they arent getting the open looks generated by having to rotate after a double team.

Karl can drop 40...Dennis can hold him to 20...or less. hes done both. But Dennis will not need help. If Karl drops 40 its a "Nothing you can do" 40. A jumper 40. A "Well...if hes gonna make that...." 40. Not a abusing the defender for easy looks 40.

And there is a difference.

Dennis did exactly what he was supposed to do. Not just...shut a guy down. That would be nice....but bigmen arent really shut down. They are bothered. And their impact can be minimized. He did both at an all time great level.

Oh and im reminded of one of my favorite plays of the 90s. Shaq had Dennis one on one. Kinda deep position. Shaq goes to his "black tornado" move as he came to call it. He spins...Dennis is still right in his face. Shaq looks a bit puzzled and just shoots what I guess id call a floater. And really I dont remember if it went in or not. It may well have. But watching him go to his trademark mega dropstep and have Dennis take it on the chest and not budge...and see him so thrown off he just gently lobs the ball in the general direction of the basket?

Its not like Dennis was strong enough to just oppose Shaq. He kinda..rolled with the punch so to speak. Shaq spins off and ends up right in front of Dennis...with no idea what to do.

As a lover of defense...that was beautiful. The footwork...the strength. The poise. 90% of guys go flying. Dennis is like 230 pounds...and he doesnt move an inch.

Shaq probably had his usual 25-30....but Dennis did what he always does. Find your comfort zone and fight you for it.

All you ask of a defender around the basket.

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]Why do Jordan stans slight alltime greats ( Rodman was the greatest defender /rebouder /energy guy of his generation) to prop up MJ???


silly...[/QUOTE]

It' for the same reason that you and other Kobe fans slight Shaq/Gasol/Odom. They're trying to push an agenda.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Question...who...and I mean ever..."locks down" bigtime scorers who are bigmen?

Maybe Wilt when he was really up for a matchup?

Lets say from 75-now. Who ever just...locked down the Shaqs, Malones, Barkleys, Robinsons, Mchales, and so on?

Rodman(like a few others) got as close as can be expected but he didnt stop them...and it wasnt expected. A great one on one defender in the frontcourt isnt supposed to harrass a guy into a 6-19 shooting night like say...Gary Payton might to a point guard.

Rodman was the NBA version of a great man to man corner in the NFL. Hes not great because he can keep an all time great from a catch. Hes great because he can guard an all time great by himself and not allow that players presence to benefit his teammates as much as usual.

Hes not gonna stop Shaq. Or Malone. Or Barkley. Hes gonna get up for the matchup and guard them hard and get in their heads and kick and brawl and whatever he has to do. But he makes it personal. And that is the key.

When you dont have to collapse into the paint to keep a guy from dropping 40 he has to beat you himself because his teammates arent used to picking up the slack when they arent getting the open looks generated by having to rotate after a double team.

Karl can drop 40...Dennis can hold him to 20...or less. hes done both. But Dennis will not need help. If Karl drops 40 its a "Nothing you can do" 40. A jumper 40. A "Well...if hes gonna make that...." 40. Not a abusing the defender for easy looks 40.

And there is a difference.

Dennis did exactly what he was supposed to do. Not just...shut a guy down. That would be nice....but bigmen arent really shut down. They are bothered. And their impact can be minimized. He did both at an all time great level.[/QUOTE]

I never said he locked down people tho.

I basically echoed some of the same sentiments you and others have stated regarding his impact and his defense.

The most most distinguished trait of Rodman is that he simply did what he was asked to do. On the pistons he was asked to be a lock down defender. With the Bulls he was asked to focus on rebounds. He trusted his coaches decisions based on who his teammates were and molded his game into what his TEAM at the time needed. Had he been asked to be a 3 point specialist or a swing-man, he would have undoubtedly been successful if that is what was asked and required of him. He was just that physically gifted and motivated to achieve whatever.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Question...who...and I mean ever..."locks down" bigtime scorers who are bigmen?

Maybe Wilt when he was really up for a matchup?
[/QUOTE]

Going by that definition, no one in the history of the game is a lock-down defender, not even Russell.

Wilt had plenty of huge games against Russell, as did Kareem against Wilt.

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Just so everyone is clear, "role player" is code for any player who doesn't provide volume scoring.

(Note that no one would ever a call a player who only volume scored and did absolutely nothing else of worth on a basketball court a "role player.")[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't say that. I would say more so a guy who doesn't make the allstar team is a role player.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Oh and im reminded of one of my favorite plays of the 90s. Shaq had Dennis one on one. Kinda deep position. Shaq goes to his "black tornado" move as he came to call it. He spins...Dennis is still right in his face. Shaq looks a bit puzzled and just shoots what I guess id call a floater. And really I dont remember if it went in or not. It may well have. But watching him go to his trademark mega dropstep and have Dennis take it on the chest and not budge...and see him so thrown off he just gently lobs the ball in the general direction of the basket?

Its not like Dennis was strong enough to just oppose Shaq. He kinda..rolled with the punch so to speak. Shaq spins off and ends up right in front of Dennis...with no idea what to do.

As a lover of defense...that was beautiful. The footwork...the strength. The poise. 90% of guys go flying. Dennis is like 230 pounds...and he doesnt move an inch.

Shaq probably had his usual 25-30....but Dennis did what he always does. Find your comfort zone and fight you for it.

All you ask of a defender around the basket.[/QUOTE]

Do you by chance remember what game that was?

Bulls - Rodman = falling to teams with muscle on the paint... watch 95 playoff series vs the Magic for an example.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Going by that definition, no one in the history of the game is a lock-down defender, not even Russell.

Wilt had plenty of huge games against Russell, as did Kareem against Wilt.[/QUOTE]


that's the whole point. you don't shut down a great player who plays 8 feet from the basket. You just bother him.

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but one of Rodman's many intangibles was his ability to get the home crowd into a game.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but one of Rodman's many intangibles was his ability to get the home crowd into a game.[/QUOTE]

Code name for 'role player' :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]that's the whole point. you don't shut down a great player who plays 8 feet from the basket. You just bother him.[/QUOTE]

I was disagreeing with the person you quoted. I should have made that more clear.

[QUOTE=andgar923]Code name for 'role player' :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

:wtf:

[QUOTE=DatAsh]It' for the same reason that you and other Kobe fans slight Shaq/Gasol/Odom. They're trying to push an agenda.[/QUOTE]


- How do I slight those guys?.....because I responded in the countless threads of [B]" Shaq , Gasol etc. etc. carried Kobe...without ____________ (fill in random player) Kobe can't win"[/B]

- it was mainly tongue in cheek comments.....posted in the [B]"Kobe slighting day of the week" threads[/B]

- When I create my own threads that are "hater proof".....you will see I talk real basketball and always rep each of the players and thier impact.

- I already created the greatest Shaq thread and recognized his greatness.....it's only when the basketball illiterate speak that I go full retard mode.


deal wit it.

[QUOTE=andgar923]Code name for 'role player' :oldlol:[/QUOTE]


Rodman = 96' Finals co FMVP.

One of my favorite Rodman on Shaq moments [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg3BiOw4TWo#t=08m20s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg3BiOw4TWo#t=08m20s[/URL]

for 95% of defenders, that would have been dunk or dunk-and-1.

that was beautiful. The black tornado got him that time but even if you win you don't win. Just grab him and piss him off

1996 Shawn Kemp and 1998 Karl Malone put up quality numbers againts Rodman in the Finals. Rodman was the Bulls 3rd best defender from 1996-1998.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]One of my favorite Rodman on Shaq moments [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg3BiOw4TWo#t=08m20s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg3BiOw4TWo#t=08m20s[/URL]

for 95% of defenders, that would have been dunk or dunk-and-1.[/QUOTE]

that whole clip is just destruction of the crap idea of this thread.

D Rod overpowered Shaquille O'Neal in every basketball term.

[quote=DatAsh]One of my favorite Rodman on Shaq moments [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg3BiOw4TWo#t=08m20s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg3BiOw4TWo#t=08m20s[/URL]

for 95% of defenders, that would have been dunk or dunk-and-1.[/quote]

I know this is a Rodman thread but how is it humanly possible for a 7-1, 330 pound person to spin like that? :wtf:

[quote]He's arguably the greatest role player ever, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a role player.[/quote]
Who says you can't be a superstar without being a scorer?

Was Ben Wallace a role player?

No.

Rodman was a star. He was a game-changer. He stuck out much more, and did much more for a team, than a guy like Joe Johnson who can be the #1 offensive option on a good team.

Would you rather have Rodman or a "generic" all-star type wing player like Rudy Gay or Joe Johnson or Danny Granger?

Those guys are a dime a dozen. Every team has one or two. But there aren't any Rodmans that I know of. There are poor man's Rodmans, like Reggie Evans, but that's not the same thing. There are thinking man's Rodmans, like Shane Battier, but that's not the same thing either. Rodman getting 20 boards does more for the team intangibly than Battier hitting 6 open 3s.

When I watch 90s Bulls games - which I will admit I was not there for that run, and have seen only a few - Rodman's personality and presence sticks out nearly as much as Pippen's. He was clearly #3, but he was much bigger than Ron Harper, and nobody would create a screen name today JordanPippenEvans.

A lot of Rodman's influence can not be found in the stat sheet. His presence at the end of games and in crucial situations was pretty impactful from what I remember. It was WHEN he got a big rebound and WHEN he made a great defensive play for the Bulls that mattered more than stats.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]Going by that definition, no one in the history of the game is a lock-down defender, not even Russell.

Wilt had plenty of huge games against Russell, as did Kareem against Wilt.[/QUOTE]

this.

there is no lock-down defender in the nba, because the quality of offense is too high. all the paytons, pippens, rodmans... will get scored on.
it's not like at your local gym where a half decent player will "lock down" a total scrub.

He also brought impactful intangibles, which you wont see on the statsheet...

If I was building a team, I would definitely have a specialist like Rodman.