Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

[QUOTE=Nash]I'm not saying people will forget about what he has done, but he sure as hell doesn't want to be involved in missing the playoffs playing with these guys. As I said before, missing the playoffs with Nash, Gasol and Howard is a bigger feat than winning the championship.

And it doesn't really matter if Hakeem or Howard is better, that's not the point. Both Hakeem and Dwight were on top of the food chain, they were the best centers in their time.[/QUOTE]
Dwight hasn't played well this season and has been hurt. Pau has been hurt. Nash has been hurt. All the star players you're referencing are hurt. Kobe is running with..

Nash on low minutes
Artest
Clark
Jamison
And so on

And the defense is being coordinated by the man who drive the Knicks into the ground and has a track record for being terrible on that side of the ball where LA is having the most trouble.

ShaqAttack3234 already said it.. Kobe's defense isn't making or breaking anything. I've watched the past few games and kobe actually was giving good effort on D, not forcing shots, passing the ball.. Playing the right way. But the team is just beat up right now and not very good.

The fact that you think it would cancel out a championship run is absurd. Everyone here has seen your agenda and thinks you're a moron anyway though.

[QUOTE=Nash]
It would be like Jordan in 1997 joining up with Hakeem(Dwight best center in the NBA) + 2 other stars and missing the playoffs. If that happened for Jordan, it would be a HUGE negative in his career.[/QUOTE]
Good point, but more like Shaq (young like Dwight, best center in game by 1997) coming to the Bulls, along with old, but still good Tim Hardaway.

With George Karl as head coach to replace Phil Jackson.

MJ / Shaq / Pippen / Tim Hardaway and not making the playoffs. Having a horrific record, period. That's quite a negative accomplishment.

This + what happened in 04 and 07 would be three huge black marks on his legacy.

[QUOTE=Just2McFly]This + what happened in 04 and 07 would be three huge black marks on his legacy.[/QUOTE]

'07 or '06? He quit in game 7 vs the 2006 the Suns.

[QUOTE=Nash] As I said before, missing the playoffs with Nash, Gasol and Howard is a bigger feat than winning the championship.

.[/QUOTE]
LOL.

its a bit embarrassing isnt it

[QUOTE=Jacks3]LOL.[/QUOTE]
It is. Every time Kobe won the championships, the ones with Shaq and Gasol they were always one of the few favorites, and many of those they were the #1 favorite. But missing the playoffs with a team like that is harder. Do you understand how HARD it is for a good team, especially a team with 4 stars to miss the fecking playoffs? Not win or even advance through the 1st round, but actually miss the whole damn thing? When Kobe won his rings, his team was one of the teams we expected to win, but never in our wildest dreams did we ever expect a team with Kobe, Nash, Howard and Gasol to miss the whole damn playoffs.

It would be an utter embarrassment no matter how you slice it. Nash, Howard, Gasol are averaging their lowest PPG in years while Kobe being Kobe is preoccupied with leading the league in scoring. Even if Dwight was fully healthy I have a hard time seeing Kobe accepting a 1A/1B situation - he wants all the glory and it's painfully obvious.

[QUOTE=SCdac]It would be an utter embarrassment no matter how you slice it. Nash, Howard, Gasol are averaging their lowest PPG in years while Kobe being Kobe is preoccupied with leading the league in scoring. Even if Dwight was fully healthy I have a hard time seeing Kobe accepting a 1A/1B situation - he wants all the glory and it's painfully obvious.[/QUOTE]
Howards also averaging his lowest FT percentage and rebounds per game(over the past few years) .. His defense has also been noticeably less impactful. He's no longer an elite player in the game.. Really all that needs to be brought up.

Nash is scoring 1 less PPG than he did with the Suns as the #1 option. Big deal.

Pau's scoring is down because his efficiency is historically bad (48% TS).

I also love you clowns think you know what's going in Bryant's head. "He wants all the glory". "He wants the scoring title". ****ing clowns.

:facepalm

His legacy is pretty much set in stone already, the 04-05 Lakers season probably hurts his legacy more since he was still in prime atm.

He's played pretty well this year overall. Two weeks ago he would have still been in the top 5 current player list. Right now he still may be at 5.

If anything about Hislegacy changes, it's that his leadership has been terrible. Not taking much blame himself and making comments about his teammates... As well as walking off the court early about 5 times already or maybe even more... It's hilarious to think that this guy is actually a veteran in this league the way he's been acting.

[QUOTE=Jacks3]Nash is scoring 1 less PPG than he did with the Suns as the #1 option. Big deal.

Pau's scoring is down because his efficiency is historically bad (48% TS).

[B]I also love you clowns think you know what's going in Bryant's head. "He wants all the glory". "He wants the scoring title". ****ing clowns.
[/B]
:facepalm[/QUOTE]

Good point. He obviously doesn't want the "glory, otherwise the Lakers would be winning.

[IMG]http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif[/IMG]

It will definitely hurt it.

There are a bunch of reasons why the Lakers have been so terrible this year. Howard and Nash's injuries, poor coaching especially on defense, chemistry issues.

Kobe is part of the reason. Sure, 30-5-5 on 48% looks good on paper but his defense has been terrible, along with the rest of the team.

Maybe if he took fewer shots and allowed other guys to feel like they are important to the team the record would be different right now. I don't know for sure if that would have resulted in a better record, since defense is what the Lakers lack, but at least the chemistry issues could have been better.

[QUOTE=HardwoodLegend]Well, the stans would fall back on the "it's his 17th year" excuse and would claim a prime Kobe would push this team into the postseason by anchoring a stronger team defense.

Even though his stats are prime-esque, :lol[/QUOTE]
This

[QUOTE=Nevaeh]Good point. He obviously doesn't want the "glory, otherwise the Lakers would be winning.

[IMG]http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]
5 rings.

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=Jacks3]5 rings.

:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
5 rings and he'll only be in the top 20 after he misses the playoffs this season. lmao :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=tpols]ShaqAttack3234 already said it.. Kobe's defense isn't making or breaking anything. [B]I've watched the past few games and kobe actually was giving good effort on D[/B], not forcing shots, passing the ball.. Playing the right way. But the team is just beat up right now and not very good.

The fact that you think it would cancel out a championship run is absurd. Everyone here has seen your agenda and thinks you're a moron anyway though.[/QUOTE]

Then you're clearly not watching the games:

[url]http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2013/1/11/3864814/kobe-bryant-is-ruining-kobe-bryants-historic-season[/url]

[QUOTE=Lebron23]The Original Magnificent 7 is still the best western film of all time.[/QUOTE]

Nah.

[QUOTE=Artillery]Then you're clearly not watching the games:

[url]http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2013/1/11/3864814/kobe-bryant-is-ruining-kobe-bryants-historic-season[/url][/QUOTE]
This highlighted three plays in one game. :oldlol:

Anyone can take small snipits and try to make broad generalizations about them. Kobe last night guarded Westbrook and was actually giving good effort on defense.. Ever since this losing streak started he's been giving way more effort than he did to start the season where he was doing nothing.

against the spurs who are a great of the ball cutting screening and passing team it takes a whole defense to stick with your man. Lots of switching helping hedging etc.. The Lakers have none of this.

You have a very obvious agenda against Kobe Bryant. I actually acknowledge his shitty defensive effort for most of the start of the season.. Recently though he's been far more active on that side of the ball.

ISH after the 2011 Finals:

Lebron James has tarnished his legacy and there's no way he'll ever be in the top 5 all time!

ISH after the 2012 Fianls: OMG Lebron is the greatest ever! He's already better than Kobe and Bird have ever been and he'll end up being greater than Jordan

ISH where prisoners of the moment happen

[QUOTE=dbk123]5 rings and he'll only be in the top 20 after he misses the playoffs this season. lmao :roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]
The dude locked up top 10 spot in 2009.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]'07 or '06? He quit in game 7 vs the 2006 the Suns.[/QUOTE]
whenever that shit happened

:lol

[QUOTE=Heavincent]Most all time greats, in all team sports, have benefited from certain systems. How much success did Jordan have without Phil Jackson? [B]Then you have Duncan, who has played for one of the greatest coaches in sports for his entire career.[/B] Shaq won 4 rings with two legendary coaches. Different sport, but Tom Brady has definitely benefited from Belichick's system.[/QUOTE]

At the start of the year of Duncan's first championship, Popovich had an NBA win-loss record of 73-73 (hardly the record of a GOAT-type coach). Pop was very much a novice NBA coach unlike the coach Kobe and Shaq got who already had 6 NBA championships under his belt.

Most of you Kobe stans are spoiled - you expect instant gratification - big name team mates, big name coaches instead of doing it the old-fashioned way building from the draft, patience developing players and Kobe allowing these players to grow by passing them the ball.

Look at this Earl Clark - only through desperation and injuries is he getting his chance. And he's made the most of it. It makes for team chemistry when team mates know that you trust them to take the open shot instead of being hell-bent on scoring as many points as possible (sometimes when double- or triple-teamed) to break the all-time scoring record.

Like it or not, part of one's legacy is one's leadership. And in this area, Kobe is sadly lacking. What does it say about him when he is having one of his statistically best years but the record is 15-21? Where is the impact and should he not rally his team mates and lead them? It's ironic that Dwight has all this power in his hands. He basically holds the future of the franchise in his hands. Lakers either trade the best center in the league for spare parts (and not get back equal value) or take the chance that he'll re-sign.

Players are well aware of Kobe's ways from snitching to throwing team mates under the bus to his reluctance to pass the ball. It's no wonder so many of the free agents went to the Clippers and Heat - all the benefits of living in a big city and playing with willing passers in CP/Lebron.

So will DH stay in LA?

[QUOTE=Nash]With him, Howard, Nash and Gasol in same team? Man, not making the playoffs with those 4 stars in the same team is probably a bigger accomplishment than winning the championship with Shaq.[/QUOTE]

With exception of Howard and Bryant, nobody else is playing like a "star". Even Howard's productions has slipped off, mostly due to that injury.

So no, I don't think his legacy will be effected. A legacy is all about perception and how an individual views you. All Bryant can do now is add to it. As other have mentioned, this might effect Howard more but he's also been injured.

[QUOTE=Nash]With him, Howard, Nash and Gasol in same team? Man, not making the playoffs with those 4 stars in the same team is probably a bigger accomplishment than winning the championship with Shaq.[/QUOTE]

Kobe's already a consensus top 10 player of all-time and he's already proven that he doesn't need a team of Howard/Nash/Gasol to win. He won his first three rings with Shaq and role players. The 3-peat Lakers were a two man team. He won two more rings and made three straight Finals appearances with essentially just Gasol/Odom. Also like others already said the team has been dealing with significant injuries all year long and Gasol and even Howard haven't played up to their standards so far. Well Pau actually hasn

[QUOTE=Ne 1]Kobe's already a consensus top 10 player of all-time and he's already proven that he doesn't need a team of Howard/Nash/Gasol to win.[B] He won his first three rings with Shaq and role players.[/B] The 3-peat Lakers were a two man team. He won two more rings and made three straight Finals appearances with essentially just Gasol/Odom. Also like others already said the team has been dealing with significant injuries all year long and Gasol and even Howard haven't played up to their standards so far. Well Pau actually hasn

[QUOTE=NumberSix]No, Shaq won his first ring with himself and role players, Kobe being one of them.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://memecrunch.com/meme/5B5S/not-sure-if-trolling/image.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Ne 1][IMG]http://memecrunch.com/meme/5B5S/not-sure-if-trolling/image.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I take it you've never actually seen to 2000 finals.

I believe his ability to show leadership is what is going to take a hit and people will re-evaluate him when guys like Bron and Durant get a couple more seasons. Kobe can not slide right now, but it will make it easier to put those guys ahead of him if they continue to be successful and if this Lakers season continues to be a disaster.

[QUOTE=NumberSix]I take it you've never actually seen to 2000 finals.[/QUOTE]

I've watched all of the 2000 playoffs, including the entire Finals series. I take it you're the one who has never actually seen it.

[QUOTE=Calabis]I believe his ability to show leadership is what is going to take a hit and people will re-evaluate him when guys like Bron and Durant get a couple more seasons. Kobe can not slide right now, but it will make it easier to put those guys ahead of him if they continue to be successful and if this Lakers season continues to be a disaster.[/QUOTE]
Kobe has never been a player that leads with words and encouragement.. He leads with actions aka on court play like he did in 2008.. Once the play drops off the team loses faith.

Anything now is just gravy. Reality.

Nothing to prove. He doesn't need Howard, Gasol (twilight of career), Nash (twilight of career) to win a chip. He did it with Gasol and an injured bynum already.

Obviously to the haters this is not easy concept to grasp.

Well, we're talking about what would be probably the biggest disappointment in modern basketball history. It doesn't push him any lower for me, but it would probably cap Kobe in terms of climbing up my list. I have him at #8 behind Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Wilt and Duncan. If the Lakers miss the playoffs I can't see Kobe ever passing those guys for me.

Plus, it would make putting LeBron above him in a couple of years a lot easier. Say what you will about some of LeBron's playoff failures, but this Laker team not making the playoffs would be worse than any of them.

Oh man his legacy is gonna take a huge hit. If he doesnt make the finals it will still take a hit. But not making the playoffs? No one saw this coming

[QUOTE=talkingconch]Anything now is just gravy. Reality.

Nothing to prove. He doesn't need Howard, Gasol (twilight of career), Nash (twilight of career) to win a chip. He did it with Gasol and an injured bynum already.

Obviously to the haters this is not easy concept to grasp.[/QUOTE]

So u'r saying if he won his sixth this year it wouldn't have meant shit?

Kobe's accomplishment and achievements are there. His great play can't be undone. He in the top ten for me without question and won't fall out this year. The only blow he can take is that in a tight comparison - those who have him battling Bird, Oscar or Hakeem for a spot, is that his judgement, team play and leadership on the court isn't as good as the other top dozen. Those things usually get better as you age. Unfortunately these traits are getting exaggerated on the bad side for Kobe because of a great number of young players with these traits most noticeably Lebron, Wade, CP, Lillard, DWill, etc. With Durant and Rose showing noticeable improvements every year. I truly think only Lebron and Durant will threaten or achieve a spot in the top ten.

The number of years Kobe has had superior talent on his team will allso be used against him. Garnett, Duncan and Dirk all played well on older teams so people aren't going to be friendly when assessing Kobe in this matter either.

[QUOTE=Calabis]So u'r saying if he won his sixth this year it wouldn't have meant shit?[/QUOTE]
Anything now is just gravy.. Pretty straight forward.

Everyone now is just living in the moment. People don't take all the seasons a player came up short and subtract then from their winning seasons. Not how it works. If so hakeem would have a negative career ranking.. Lebron would still be getting hammered for 2011.. Etc. Kobe is in his 17th season playing very well and his best teammates are hurt and you want to act like the name on paper there means something. The Lakers aren't fielding a competitive team right now for a bunch of reasons not named kobe. No one will care five years down the road..No one remembered hakeem team blowing up with Barkley and drexler when they reunited in old age.. It just doesn't matter.

[QUOTE=tpols]Anything now is just gravy.. Pretty straight forward.

Everyone now is just living in the moment. People don't take all the seasons a player came up short and subtract then from their winning seasons. Not how it works. If so hakeem would have a negative career ranking.. Lebron would still be getting hammered for 2011.. Etc. Kobe is in his 17th season playing very well and his best teammates are hurt and you want to act like the name on paper there means something. The Lakers aren't fielding a competitive team right now for a bunch of reasons not named kobe. No one will care five years down the road..No one remembered hakeem team blowing up with Barkley and drexler when they reunited in old age.. It just doesn't matter.[/QUOTE]


Exactly :applause:


With regards to Kobe's leadership in 2008, do you think he exhibited the same type of leadership in 2009 and 2010? I wished he could have played liked he did in 2008 leadership wise for the majority of his career.

Not a top 5 player IMO