LeBron James right now is the best player of all time

[QUOTE=red1]Stfu knicksman, you are the dumbest poster on here. You still havent explained why you think drose is a cancer, why bronzy is a low impact star and why bosh is better than pippen.[/QUOTE]

bulls still got the best record without rose and bosh has proven to be a franchise player while pippen is not. Lebron might produce more wins on a bad team but not on a team with talent. I dont see lebron/westbrook producing as much as okc right now. In fact bosh and wade are both better than westbrook yet okc had more wins than heat 2 seasons in a row. And thats the reason why lebrons off rtg despite the stats is not as good as durant, dirk, magic, jordan, cp3 because he doesnt make the whole greater than the sum of its parts. Yet people want to rank him above jordan coz he is averaging triple doubles. But how come it doesnt translate to better off rtg or wins or rings. If you want to rank him above jordan, beat his off rtg first. Right now durant is matching jordans career high.

Is this dumbass actually trying to make an argument to prove that rose is a cancer, bosh is better than pippen, and bronzy is low impact? Do you even have eyes? Do you even have a brain? No one ranks bronzy over jordan that would be ALMOST as dumb as the shit that you say

This guy is seriously basing how good a player is by Offensive Rating? :roll:
Okay, Knicksman, by your logic, Steve Kerr is the GOAT and Tyson Chandler is the best player in the NBA.
Care to address this?

[QUOTE=RRR3]This guy is seriously basing how good a player is by Offensive Rating? :roll:
Okay, Knicksman, by your logic, Steve Kerr is the GOAT and Tyson Chandler is the best player in the NBA.
Care to address this?[/QUOTE]
He just gave me a new one "lebron is not as good as chris paul"

[QUOTE=red1]Is this dumbass actually trying to make an argument to prove that rose is a cancer, bosh is better than pippen, and bronzy is low impact? Do you even have eyes? Do you even have a brain? No one ranks bronzy over jordan that would be ALMOST as dumb as the shit that you say[/QUOTE]

So what this thread all about?

[QUOTE=RRR3]This guy is seriously basing how good a player is by Offensive Rating? :roll:
Okay, Knicksman, by your logic, Steve Kerr is the GOAT and Tyson Chandler is the best player in the NBA.
Care to address this?[/QUOTE]

yeah coz they have the same usage rate as the durants of the league.

[QUOTE=knicksman]So what this thread all about?[/QUOTE]
if you could read you would realize that the OP went out of his way to state that he does not rank bronzy over jordan

Red1, I guess this is what Knicksman's all-time list looks like:
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/off_rtg_career.html[/url]


Keep in mind Steve Kerr has the highest ORTG ever, for some reason they don't list him anymore they used to IIRC

[QUOTE=RRR3]Red1, I guess this is what Knicksman's all-time list looks like:
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/off_rtg_career.html[/url]


Keep in mind Steve Kerr has the highest ORTG ever, for some reason they don't list him anymore they used to IIRC[/QUOTE]
jose calderon 11th greatest all-time! legend!

Honestly Titles are a team accomplishment....Not an individual accomplishment....To ever bring titles into the argument when discussing individual accomplishments and skills is just plain wrong and dishonest. :confusedshrug:

lol

[QUOTE=red1]if you could read you would realize that the OP went out of his way to state that he does not rank bronzy over jordan[/QUOTE]

The best player means most impactful player. If you are impactful then you must produce the wins or eventually the rings. So no, lebron is too far from jordan, magic. And theres more to basketball than just stats. It also considers fit. Jordan, magic produces impact while not diminishing the impact of his teammates. While lebron on the other hand reduces his teammates impact. He may produce the biggest impact in the league but if you subtract it with the reduced impact caused by him, the net impact he produces is not as great as people make it seem to be. Thats why I judged them based on off rtg coz what makes lebron overrated is his assists and points total compare to jordan/magic. But unless you think assists and points are part of defense, how come lebron doesnt produce the same off rtg as magic, jordan, durant.

[QUOTE=knicksman]The best player means most impactful player. If you are impactful then you must produce the wins or eventually the rings. So no, lebron is too far from jordan, magic. And theres more to basketball than just stats. It also considers fit. Jordan, magic produces impact while not diminishing the impact of his teammates. While lebron on the other hand reduces his teammates impact. He may produce the biggest impact in the league but if you subtract it with the reduced impact caused by him, the net impact he produces is not as great as people make it seem to be. Thats why I judged them based on off rtg coz what makes lebron overrated is his assists and points total compare to jordan/magic. But unless you think assists and points are part of defense, how come lebron doesnt produce the same off rtg as magic, jordan, durant.[/QUOTE]

This is a bag of wind.

[QUOTE=knicksman]The best player means most impactful player. If you are impactful then you must produce the wins or eventually the rings. So no, lebron is too far from jordan, magic. And theres more to basketball than just stats. It also considers fit. Jordan, magic produces impact while not diminishing the impact of his teammates. While lebron on the other hand reduces his teammates impact. He may produce the biggest impact in the league but if you subtract it with the reduced impact caused by him, the net impact he produces is not as great as people make it seem to be. Thats why I judged them based on off rtg coz what makes lebron overrated is his assists and points total compare to jordan/magic. But unless you think assists and points are part of defense, how come lebron doesnt produce the same off rtg as magic, jordan, durant.[/QUOTE]
What? The only part of your paragraph I understood was the part where you called yourself a f*gg*t.

Jrong been hating on LeBron for couple years now. I'd bump all the sob story threads you made about how hard it is to be a heat fan and how doomed the team was with LeBron on it but I don't care enough to.

LeBron, at his peak, is certainly one of the best players this game has ever seen. Where he ranks exactly is hard to say, but there hasn't been such dominance on a nightly basis since Prime Shaq; in an era loaded with perimeter talent no less.

To the Original poster:

You're not crazy, or an idiot, or any of a number of insults people here might throw at you. I can see how someone might arrive at this conclusion.

You are however wrong and here is why.

First what do you mean by "best" and how do you quantify it?

Just to take Jordan for example (though there are others imo who's 'bests' are better than lebrons best). Jordan Clearly had a superior offensive game. In pretty much every way you can be superior. Better Shooter, Better footwork, better slasher, better post up player, better at the free throw line. the only place I see lebron being as good or better than Jordan (offensively speaking) is finishing at the rim.

Here is a fun game Ill make a list of every attribute by which you can measure or rate a player and you give the category to MJ or LBJ.... If you think of a category that I missed let me know. Ill list everything I can thiink of. Not just cherry pick stats that favor one player or another

Offense:
Shooting-
Midrange-
Distance-
At the Rim-
Free throw-
Post moves-
Foot work-
Reading the defender-
Clutch Scoring-
Drawing fouls
Open Court play-
Ball handling -
Playing off the Ball-
------------------------------------------
Defense:
Man to Man-
Team player on Defense-
Cutting off Driving lanes-
Shot Blocking-
Getting Steals-
Forcing Turnovers-
Full court Defense-
--------------------------------------------
Passing:
Open court passes-
Finding open team mates-
Fancy deceptive passes-
Driving and Kicking-
facilitating Ball rotation-
Small window passing-
-----------------------------------------
Misc:
Durablility-
Rebounding-
Consistency-
Cluth play -
Making teammates better-
Knowing Time and score situation-
Taking care of the ball-
Adaptability-
Athleticism-


... If you can think of other measures of a player please add them.

Scoring: MJ
Penetration: MJ
Post: MJ
Jumpshot: MJ
Open-court: Push
Finishing: MJ (combo of power, finesse, and creativity)
Offensive repertoire: MJ
Passing: Bron
Rebounding: Bron
Offensive rebounding: MJ
Defensive rebounding: Bron
Defense: MJ
On-ball defense (perimeter): MJ
On-ball defense (post): MJ
Off-ball defense: MJ
Team defense: Bron
Defensive versatility: Bron
Steals: MJ
Blocks: MJ
Shooting: MJ
Mid-range: MJ
Three-point: Push (MJ's 3 ball is now CRIMINALLY underrated)
Free-throws: MJ
Facilitating Offense: Bron
Handles: Push
Dribble Moves: MJ
Efficiency: Push
Clutch: MJ
Mental game: MJ
B-ball I.Q.: Push
Quicker Recognition: MJ
Better teammate: Bron
Leadership: MJ
Heart: MJ

MJ takes the vast majority of these categories, handily.

With that said, LeBron is easily the best player IMO since MJ retired (yes, better than Shaq) and will probably go down as the 2nd greatest perimeter talent of all-time, and a top five player depending on how man MVPs and Rings he racks up.

His game is this basketball melting pot of greats. The way he can switch from Magic mode, to Pippen mode, to the occasional SUPER SCARY game 6 Jordan mode, once he finally learned at times he has to dominate.

Jordan Stans are almost as bad as Kobe Stans. Jordan isn't the greatest ever. He is up there, but ****. For one, his defense is ****ing overrated.

I'm sorry people but at this moment I got LeBron.
Numbers stats etc are not everything.
And career wise LeBron is still far behind Jordan and Kobe for that matter.
But when it comes to physical skill, ability, style if play....it's LeBron IMO.
The man has Karl Malone's frame....Magic Johnson court vision and passing skills....hops like Dr J...and finishes hard at the rim like Wilkins.
Thing he can approve on is his footwork and post play...become more of a lock down defender...and his out side J. But those are intangibles he can work on and he is getting better.
Jordan was a scoring machine and a fierce competitor.....but physical skill and talent I would pick LeBron. It is a fair argent.

[QUOTE=Money 23]Scoring: MJ
Penetration: MJ
Post: MJ
Jumpshot: MJ
Open-court: Push
Finishing: MJ (combo of power, finesse, and creativity)
Offensive repertoire: MJ
Passing: Bron
Rebounding: Bron
Offensive rebounding: MJ
Defensive rebounding: Bron
Defense: MJ
On-ball defense (perimeter): MJ
On-ball defense (post): MJ
Off-ball defense: MJ
Team defense: Bron
Defensive versatility: Bron
Steals: MJ
Blocks: MJ
Shooting: MJ
Mid-range: MJ
Three-point: Push (MJ's 3 ball is now CRIMINALLY underrated)
Free-throws: MJ
Facilitating Offense: Bron
Handles: Push
Dribble Moves: MJ
Efficiency: Push
Clutch: MJ
Mental game: MJ
B-ball I.Q.: Push
Quicker Recognition: MJ
Better teammate: Bron
Leadership: MJ
Heart: MJ

MJ takes the vast majority of these categories, handily.

With that said, LeBron is easily the best player IMO since MJ retired (yes, better than Shaq) and will probably go down as the 2nd greatest perimeter talent of all-time, and a top five player depending on how man MVPs and Rings he racks up.

His game is this basketball melting pot of greats. The way he can switch from Magic mode, to Pippen mode, to the occasional SUPER SCARY game 6 Jordan mode, once he finally learned at times he has to dominate.[/QUOTE]
Heart isn't really a thing you can give MJ over lebron I would say equal. They both work heavily in the off season and play to their best nearly all the time if anything MJ slacked off more partying and shit lol. You can tell how much he ended up taking the 2011 finals result to heart. I mean when you say heart that's love for the game just because you're a better player doesn't mean you loved it more. Check that one as a push. Finishing is also a push creativity and finesse mean nothing in this that's just visually pleasing and lebron certainly brought more power to it. But for productivity in finishing which is all that matters, they are tied. I agree overall tho. LeBron although not near MJ career wise, he is one of the closest to him talent wise and has solidified to me to be a top 5 talent all time.

[QUOTE=Big#50]Jordan Stans are almost as bad as Kobe Stans. Jordan isn't the greatest ever. He is up there, but ****. For one, his defense is ****ing overrated.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
In 1988 he led the league in steals and had more blocks than 16 starting centers in the league. Overrated indeed...

[QUOTE=360crazy]Honestly Titles are a team accomplishment....Not an individual accomplishment....To ever bring titles into the argument when discussing individual accomplishments and skills is just plain wrong and dishonest. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Basketball is a team sport so what is exactly the point of even discussing and comparing individual player accomplishments or having all-time player lists in the first place?

[QUOTE=Kovach]:roll:
In 1988 he led the league in steals and had more blocks than 16 starting centers in the league. Overrated indeed...[/QUOTE]
16 Centers sucked?

Crisoner you been doing crack recently?

:banghead:

Reading this forum is like watching some trashy reality show. You feel like a genius afterwards. A genius with a concussion but a genius nevertheless.

Not yet. But he's gonna be a top 7-10 players of all time if he wins another Finals MVP, and MVP.

[QUOTE=360crazy]Honestly Titles are a team accomplishment....Not an individual accomplishment....To ever bring titles into the argument when discussing individual accomplishments and skills is just plain wrong and dishonest. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Because some players are better than their teammates, they contributed more to the "team success." They will get more credit as the team's best player and leader. They'll also get more blame for their team's failures.

If individual accomplishments are wrong and dishonest, then why even give out MVP awards, Finals MVP, DPOY, ROTY, and so forth.

Baseball, football, hockey all are team sports also, yet you hear the same argument about MVPs, all-time ranking. Maybe not as much as the NBA, but fans of those sports do debate about all-time list too.

Better than Michael Jordan lol?

The guy isn't even close to Jordan, he lacks the mentality that the icons like Jordan & Bird had.

That is a huge difference between him and the top 7 or so players all time.

[QUOTE=Money 23]Scoring: MJ
Penetration: MJ
Post: MJ
Jumpshot: MJ
Open-court: Push
Finishing: MJ (combo of power, finesse, and creativity)
Offensive repertoire: MJ
Passing: Bron
Rebounding: Bron
Offensive rebounding: MJ
Defensive rebounding: Bron
Defense: MJ
On-ball defense (perimeter): MJ
On-ball defense (post): MJ
Off-ball defense: MJ
Team defense: Bron
Defensive versatility: Bron
Steals: MJ
Blocks: MJ
Shooting: MJ
Mid-range: MJ
Three-point: Push (MJ's 3 ball is now CRIMINALLY underrated)
Free-throws: MJ
Facilitating Offense: Bron
Handles: Push
Dribble Moves: MJ
Efficiency: Push
Clutch: MJ
Mental game: MJ
B-ball I.Q.: Push
Quicker Recognition: MJ
Better teammate: Bron
Leadership: MJ
Heart: MJ

MJ takes the vast majority of these categories, handily.

With that said, LeBron is easily the best player IMO since MJ retired (yes, better than Shaq) and will probably go down as the 2nd greatest perimeter talent of all-time, and a top five player depending on how man MVPs and Rings he racks up.

His game is this basketball melting pot of greats. The way he can switch from Magic mode, to Pippen mode, to the occasional SUPER SCARY game 6 Jordan mode, once he finally learned at times he has to dominate.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't say that Bron is a better team defender than Jordan at all. Jordan is one of the best team defenders of all time (the only guys I've seen who are even in the same league are Pippen, Kidd, and Stockton).

Everyone talks about Bron and his "amazing passing"; Jordan's playmaking, when he REALLY wanted to get his guys involved, is so freaking underrated.

Guy is like a more skilled version of Lebron. Mike's arsenal was infinite - and when he picked apart a defense, he remained efficient in doing so.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM[/url]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM#t=0m55s"]:55[/URL]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM#t=1m05s"]1:05[/URL] (innate court-vision)
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiTOXUmsdoM#t=11m55s"]11:55[/URL]

If Miami wins another title w/ Bron playing at a high level, I'd maybe entertain the idea. Then again, rings are a TEAM accomplishment so I don't know.

[QUOTE=Big#50]16 Centers sucked?[/QUOTE]
Or your claim and reality have very little to do with each other?

[QUOTE=Money 23]

His game is this basketball melting pot of greats. The way he can switch from Magic mode, to Pippen mode, to the occasional SUPER SCARY game 6 Jordan mode, once he finally learned at times he has to dominate.[/QUOTE]

Yes, and choking 2 out of 3 finals mode.

[QUOTE=Magic 32]Yes, and choking 2 out of 3 finals mode.[/QUOTE]


Hello Mr. Troll!!!

[B]Kobe and LBJ Finals Stats[/B]

[B]Kobe Bryant: [/B]25.4 ppg 6rpg 5apg 2spg 1bpg 3.3TOV 41% 85%FT

[B]Lebron James:[/B] 22.5 ppg 8rpg 7apg 1spg 0.4bpg 4.4TOV 44% 76%FT

:facepalm Threads like this are so far off. He's barely in the top 10 right now. He needs [I]atleast[/I] 3 more rings to be in the same sentence as Duncan and Mamba.

[QUOTE=Lebron23]Hello Mr. Troll!!!

[B]Kobe and LBJ Finals Stats[/B]

[B]Kobe Bryant: [/B]25.4 ppg 6rpg 5apg 2spg 1bpg 3.3TOV 41% 85%FT

[B]Lebron James:[/B] 22.5 ppg 8rpg 7apg 1spg 0.4bpg 4.4TOV 44% 76%FT[/QUOTE]

Stats don't counter whether a player choked or not. Even though the poster you were quoting was incorrect. He only has choked in 1 of 3 Finals. His first he was just straight up shut down by an elite defensive team, and he had no help. The second was definitely one of the worst chokes in the history of professional sports though.

[QUOTE=TMT]:facepalm Threads like this are so far off. He's barely in the top 10 right now. He needs [I]atleast[/I] 3 more rings to be in the same sentence as Duncan and Mamba.[/QUOTE]

It's not like Timmy is in same question as Kobe, not sure if Kobe is top 10 and Duncan is easily and there is no question LeBron lands in top 10, question is where in top 10.

[QUOTE=Lebron23]Hello Mr. Troll!!!

[B]Kobe and LBJ Finals Stats[/B]

[B]Kobe Bryant: [/B]25.4 ppg 6rpg 5apg 2spg 1bpg 3.3TOV 41% 85%FT

[B]Lebron James:[/B] 22.5 ppg 8rpg 7apg 1spg 0.4bpg 4.4TOV 44% 76%FT[/QUOTE]


[IMG]http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/292/357/5cd.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=TMT]:facepalm Threads like this are so far off. He's barely in the top 10 right now. He needs [I]atleast[/I] 3 more rings to be in the same sentence as Duncan and Mamba.[/QUOTE]

Where do you currently have him ranked? Right now all-time I'd say he's in the same tier as Moses/West/Oscar/Dr. J/KG

[QUOTE]The best player means most impactful player. If you are impactful then you must produce the wins or eventually the rings. So no, lebron is too far from jordan, magic. And theres more to basketball than just stats. It also considers fit. Jordan, magic produces impact while not diminishing the impact of his teammates. While lebron on the other hand reduces his teammates impact. He may produce the biggest impact in the league but if you subtract it with the reduced impact caused by him, the net impact he produces is not as great as people make it seem to be. [/QUOTE]

:wtf:

Lebron came straight out of high school and elevated a 17 win team to 35 wins; Jordan came out of UNC and elevated a 27 win team to only 38 wins. The only losing season Lebron has ever had was his first year when he was fresh out of high school; Jordan recorded 5 losing seasons. Lebron reached the finals with scrubs in 2007 yet he had no impact? Cleveland has been a joke since Lebron left.

Jordan's impact on teammates? The year after he retired the first time most players who were on both the 1993 and 1994 teams saw their field goal percentages improve. :oldlol:

If Jordan is who you consider your GOAT, well, let's compare Lebron and Jordan through age 27 (it wouldn't be fair to include this season since we don't know if Lebron will win another ring or MVP yet).

Rings: Lebron 1, Jordan 1
NBA finals: Lebron 3, Jordan 1
MVP's: Lebron 3, Jordan 2
DPOY: Jordan 1, Lebron 0
All-NBA first team: Lebron 7, Jordan 5
Losing records: Jordan 3, Lebron 1
Best record in the NBA: Lebron 2, Jordan 0

Lebron definitely is on pace to surpass MJ. Whether that is sustainable is a question only time can tell but the notion that comparing them is absurd is itself absurd since Lebron at this point is ahead of where Jordan was. Lebron could have 4 MVP's and 2 championships by the age of 28.

Keep in mind Jordan achieved no accolades when he was 30
and 31. Unless Lebron too decides to bail on his team a month before the regular season, Lebron will have two years of his prime to achieve important things that Jordan lacked the motivation to do. Lebron could have something like 4-5 MVP's and 2-3 rings by the time he is 31.

Some may point out Lebron entered the league at 19 while Jordan did so at 21 and therefore Lebron has an extra two years so comparing them at age 27 is unfair. I disagree. First, the extra two years only help Lebron in terms of career statistical totals. It doesn't help him in terms of accolades. All he did in his first two seasons was make the all-NBA second team once.

Oh look, it's the Jordan hater Roundball Rock - say hi, everyone!

lol @ comparing them by age when Lebron has had 3 more seasons than MJ to accomplish what he did through the same age. 2 years plus the basically full season MJ missed in '86.

[quote]All he did in his first two seasons was make the all-NBA second team once.[/quote]

And, you know, get acclimated to playing at the NBA level. :rolleyes: