Do people really believe KD is only a good scorer because of his free throws?

[QUOTE=Quintilianus][B]That's a very sad true.[/B] Sad because I rooted for him since he came into the NBA, always loved his game even when people were calling him mr. 5/25.
He got so caught up in his stats and trying to be lebron, that he forgot that he's the best scorer in the NBA by a large margin. Of couse he's a guy that doesn't talk much, so naturally a show-off like westbrook who naturally wants to win and doesn't care about anything else eventually takes over as the leader of this team.
I realize you're a Durant fan, I too have very strong appreciation for his game throughout his career, [B]but he's very weak mentally.[/B]
On the other hand, his path reminds me of lebron in some ways, so maybe he'll brake out of his weaknesses by meeting someone inferior to him mentally in the playoffs. I don't know who will that be, but it'll probably eventually happen[/QUOTE]
No, it's not. And no, he isn't.

[QUOTE=bluechox2]melo wud be putting up 10 more points a game if he got reffed like durant[/QUOTE]
Really? 10 whole more PPG? He'd be averaging 38 PPG if he got reffed the same way as Durant? That's how big the discrepancy is between how Durant is reffed and how Carmelo's reffed?

[QUOTE=KG215]No, it's not. And no, he isn't.


Really? 10 whole more PPG? He'd be averaging 38 PPG if he got reffed the same way as Durant? That's how big the discrepancy is between how Durant is reffed and how Carmelo's reffed?[/QUOTE]

Yes, Durant is a b1tch.

forget stats, just watch the games.

It's not about the amount of free throws, it's about fouls being called on the most minimal contacts, not even fouls.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You can't answer a simple question. How much better is Durant at drawing fouls than Carmelo. Please quantify it. Because that has to go into the formula. In fact...it is the biggest factor.

[/QUOTE]


How can this be quantified without knowing what is going on inside the refs head? This isn't a skill that you can train, unless you consider acting a basketball skill. This is something that comes down to how the refs want to call it that particular day.

He's one of the best shooters I've ever seen. His other skills are meh but he's realllllllly coordinated

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You can't answer a simple question. How much better is Durant at drawing fouls than Carmelo. Please quantify it. Because that has to go into the formula. In fact...it is the biggest factor.[/QUOTE]

Because that's an impossible thing to put an exact number on. It would be like saying one player is a better scorer and asking them to put a number on how much better.

If I had to, I'd say the difference between a 2.6 FGA/FTA ratio and a 2.9 FGA/FTA ratio. Around there.

[QUOTE]I told you that Carmelo has a 1.6 shot attempt advantage at the rim. But he also takes 4 more shots from 16 feet and beyond. That has to factor in as well.[/QUOTE]

Not much, or not nearly as much as shots at the rim.

[QUOTE]And obviously Durant is drawing fouls all over the place and not just at the rim...so the normal rules don't apply to him.[/QUOTE]

Again, Melo does a better job drawing fouls on mid-range shots with pump fakes than he does around the rim, relative to how common one is or the other. He did this throughout his shooting slump.

[QUOTE]What you are too dense to comprehend is that even with 6 shots at the rim, you have to account for the other 16. And you have to determine how often Carmelo is trying to get fouled or even in a position to get fouled. Melo takes a lot of threes (2 more than Durant per game)...and doesn't try to draw contact on his jumper as often.[/QUOTE]

You've tried this argument throughout the thread, it didn't work then, and it doesn't work now.

[QUOTE]Also, what you are forgetting, is that you don't have to be shooting to get to the line. Durant plays 1.5 more minutes per game as well...that needs to be factored in.[/QUOTE]

Melo is almost always on the court for the later minutes in the quarter when other teams will be in the penalty, and he takes his teams technicals just like Durant does. 1.5 minutes per game won't greatly alter the amount of technicals each player shoots.

[QUOTE]Why can't you use basic logic. Even with the 1.6 shots at the rim advantage, you still have to determine how likely each player is to get fouled on the other shots. And...you have to factor in things like minutes played and how often they shoot tech / defensive 3 second free throws.[/QUOTE]

Again, you're much less likely to get fouled on shots even in mid-range than you are at the rim so you can't pretend this is equal.

[QUOTE]And then, the kicker, how much better is Durant at drawing fouls. You need to quantify this so we can factor that in. Because even just a 10% difference in ability in this area goes a long way.[/QUOTE]

I did about as well as anyone can put a number on such things. But you can't say someone is 10% better at drawing fouls. How would you even come up with something like that? All I know is that Durant gets officiated differently than Melo. I can't remember seeing another player get as many questionable calls as Durant does.

[QUOTE]Do you have a problem with Kobe taking more free throws or roughly the same amount as carmelo...despite carmelo taking more shots...including more shots at the rim? So Melo takes 1.6 more shots and takes more shots at the rim...yet he shoots less free throws. Do you have an issue with this?[/QUOTE]

Not really. Kobe probably has the best pump fake and footwork in the game. Although The difference between Kobe and Melo is actually 1.3 shots at the rim. I would say that Melo is the most disrespected out of the major superstars. It use to be Yao, now it's Melo.

:roll:

I actually think Durant goes to the line about as much as he should. Guys like Kobe, Melo, and (especially)Lebron should be going more.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You are biased because you because the margins in this debate are incredibly small.
[/QUOTE]

The margins aren't all that small though. For example, comparing Lebron to Durant, you're looking at a ratio of .388 vs .525. Lebron with Durant's ft rate would put up 1.84 more ppg, and that's not even taking into account the fact that Lebron is probably fouled even more than Durant. Lebron would be putting up 29 ppg if he were getting called the way Durant is. That doesn't seem all that small to me.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Because that's an impossible thing to put an exact number on. It would be like saying one player is a better scorer and asking them to put a number on how much better.

If I had to, I'd say the difference between a 2.6 FGA/FTA ratio and a 2.9 FGA/FTA ratio. Around there.



Not much, or not nearly as much as shots at the rim.



Again, Melo does a better job drawing fouls on mid-range shots with pump fakes than he does around the rim, relative to how common one is or the other. He did this throughout his shooting slump.



You've tried this argument throughout the thread, it didn't work then, and it doesn't work now.



Melo is almost always on the court for the later minutes in the quarter when other teams will be in the penalty, and he takes his teams technicals just like Durant does. 1.5 minutes per game won't greatly alter the amount of technicals each player shoots.



Again, you're much less likely to get fouled on shots even in mid-range than you are at the rim so you can't pretend this is equal.



I did about as well as anyone can put a number on such things. But you can't say someone is 10% better at drawing fouls. How would you even come up with something like that? All I know is that Durant gets officiated differently than Melo. I can't remember seeing another player get as many questionable calls as Durant does.



Not really. Kobe probably has the best pump fake and footwork in the game. Although The difference between Kobe and Melo is actually 1.3 shots at the rim. I would say that Melo is the most disrespected out of the major superstars. It use to be Yao, now it's Melo.[/QUOTE]

So it all amounts to this.

You think Melo is disrespected. You think Kobe shooting more free throws despite shooting less at the rim and less overall doesn't matter because you think Kobe is great at drawing fouls.

That isn't enough mate. And you don't think any of the evidence to the contrary is acceptable because...well, you don't like it.

Guess what. You are not making any sense. You can't just talk about fga and shots at the rim without understanding if a said player is as good as the other at drawing fouls.

Here are the facts. Melo shoots over 4 more shots from long range a game. Melo also throws the ball wildly at the backboard on drives to get his own tip in. Which does two things;

1. It sometimes prevents from calling a foul because he's out of control
2. It inflates his shots at the rim because he's getting credit for a shot every time he tips it in. He does at least once a game. So that 1.6 shots at the rim logically becomes more like .6 if we are being fair, but of course we aren't because you are so biased

Then we get to Kobe. You have no issue with Kobe vs Melo...yet it is very similar. Why? Because you are biased against Durant...it's so obvious.

In Durant vs Kobe. Kobe shoots 2.3 more long range shots than Durant a game. He shoots .6 more shots at the rim. So that is a 1.7 difference. Kobe only shoots 2.5 more shots overall than Durant. Durant most likely takes more technical free throws as well. The margin is incredibly small...and we haven't even factored in the most important thing...

Durant is better at drawing fouls than Kobe.

You argument is flawed and biased and your refusal to acknowledge that the two guys you keep supporting are probably the two guys in the league that take the worst shots consistently. Durant doesn't settle that much...that is you answer. Those possessions where Kobe and Melo just take a long contested jumper...Durant is attacking and drawing fouls.

But again. What is more likely? That Kobe and Melo settle a little more and that Durant is just noticeably better at drawing fouls? Or that the NBA has a conspiracy against the likes of Melo and Kobe?

Please...

[QUOTE=DatAsh]I actually think Durant goes to the line about as much as he should. Guys like Kobe, Melo, and (especially)Lebron should be going more.



The margins aren't all that small though. For example, comparing Lebron to Durant, you're looking at a ratio of .388 vs .525. Lebron with Durant's ft rate would put up 1.84 more ppg, and that's not even taking into account the fact that Lebron is probably fouled even more than Durant. Lebron would be putting up 29 ppg if he were getting called the way Durant is. That doesn't seem all that small to me.[/QUOTE]

That is simply an argument for Durant being better at drawing fouls. He's called that way because of what he does. You might have a problem with that, but he's clearly doing something that the other players in this thread aren't doing.

And the margins are small. Anyone without huge bias would admit that Kobe and Melo take more bad shots. I just can't believe you people can't see this. Melo takes roughly 4 more shots per game. But how many more shots per game is he taking in which getting fouled is even likely. He already takes 2 more threes per game. We've seen he takes 1.6 more shots at the rim, but we've been over that. He also takes 2 more long jumpers a game. And, as everyone has admitted, he's better at drawing fouls.

So that side of the argument is not putting any context to the fga argument. Just because you shoot more does not mean deserve the same or more free throw attempts as another player.

Harden takes 6 threes a game...and 1 less shot overall than Durant...yet he averages 1 more free throw per game. If I was taking the other side...I'd be throwing my arms up in there bitching about fga and free throw rate for Harden compared to Durant. It's absurd...Harden is just really ****ing good at drawing fouls....way better than the likes of a Melo or Kobe. That is what you morons can't get through your thick skulls.

There is no conspiracy...it's simple. Durant and Harden are just noticeably better at drawing fouls. And when you factor that in...the margins are small.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234] A well expressed argument[/QUOTE]

You are wasting your time, I wasted mine not too long ago and many will waste their's in the future.

The part you're missing is LeBron and Melo don't get free throws for using the "moves to get free throws" that players that are "good at getting fouls" use.

Fouls aren't supposed to be something you create by swinging your arms and rushing into players. It's something that is called when OTHER players hit you.

Stop being a ****ing moron.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]How can this be quantified without knowing what is going on inside the refs head? This isn't a skill that you can train, unless you consider acting a basketball skill. This is something that comes down to how the refs want to call it that particular day.[/QUOTE]

Is that supposed to help your side? If it comes down to the refs and how they feel on a particular day...then if said player isn't noticeably better at something...we wouldn't see the results we've seen.

We have Durant consistently getting to the line more often per game. Because it is something he's very good at.

And the fga argument doesn't hold much water because anyone with a bit of objectivity knows that Kobe and Melo settle for bad shots way more often than Durant.

Forget the Melo side of it for a second. What argument does Kobe have? he takes 2.3 more long range shots a game and only .6 more at the rim. He settles for long jumpers often over trying to draw contact. If you stripped it down fairly...you'd get something like 17.9 vs 18.4...and your side already admitted that Durant is better at getting to the line. So on a similar amount of shots...I'd say it's perfectly reasonable for Durant to go to the line a little less than 1 more time per game than Kobe.

[QUOTE=ThatsGame]The part you're missing is LeBron and Melo don't get free throws for using the "moves to get free throws" that players that are "good at getting fouls" use.

Fouls aren't supposed to be something you create by swinging your arms and rushing into players. It's something that is called when OTHER players hit you.

Stop being a ****ing moron.[/QUOTE]

That is just a personal bias. Do you feel the same way about Harden?

[B]To put these numbers in perspective, Melo has 7 more total FGA all season and Durant has 243 more free throws. While Kobe has 149 more total FGA than Durant, and Durant has 141 more free throws.[/B]

Lets talk about the bold. Kobe has taken 149 more shots and 141 less free throws. Okay. Kobe has also taken 67 more threes on the year. And he's taken roughly 100 more shots from 16-23 feet. Kobe has taken roughly 35 more shots at the rim than Durant. We don't know who has taken more techs, but Durant shoots them for his team and Nash shot them for the Lakers often. Durant is on the floor more per game, .3 minutes...but everything, even small things, are factors. And we've already had your side concede that Durant is better at drawing fouls. So what would be acceptable to you? I mean...you are getting into those small margins between unacceptable and acceptable. Kobe takes 2.4 more shots per game. Kobe also takes more bad shots per game. Kobe is also worse at drawing fouls. I still don't see the outrage over Durant going to the line less than 1 more time per game given all the evidence.

And honestly that isn't even doing it justice.

Oh...and Shaq. Your argument about Melo shooting more late game free throws.

Durant takes 20 free throws per 36 minutes of crunch time.
Melo takes 10.5 free throws per 36 minutes of crunch time.

So, uhhh, no....

Here is my main issue with you. If Durant took 2 more 3's per game...and 1 more long jumper. He'd be taking 21 shots a game and his free throw attempts could conceivably not even go up given the nature of the shots.

And your entire argument would go out the window. Not to mention...I've been agreeing to argue this based on the premise that fga determines fta. Which I don't think is true at all to begin with...there are so many other factors that go into this in addition to fga. So you acting like fga vs fta is the only metric is absurd to begin with. But I've been arguing that way so we'll have somewhat common ground.

hate the game not the player. Stern wants the league to be soft so these guys are just taking advantage. Just look at harden.

This board is overran with illogical i**ots... Durants improved handle with his crossover and moves to the rim has aided him in getting to the line more often..he's breaking down defenses and getting to the rim even better this year than last year, you either foul him or get scored on. "Treated like Lebron"...How man fouls is lebron really gonna draw gettin easy fast break dunks and coming off of screens all season long?...Even still he gets BS calls and get away with charging alot.

Whether you guys want to admit it or not Durant is the best scorer in the NBA..spot up, pull up, off the dribble, dribble drive...he can and will score.

[QUOTE=I.R.Beast]This board is overran with illogical i**ots... Durants improved handle with his crossover and moves to the rim has aided him in getting to the line more often..he's breaking down defenses and getting to the rim even better this year than last year, you either foul him or get scored on. "Treated like Lebron"...How man fouls is lebron really gonna draw gettin easy fast break dunks and coming off of screens all season long?...Even still he gets BS calls and get away with charging alot.

Whether you guys want to admit it or not Durant is the best scorer in the NBA..spot up, pull up, off the dribble, dribble drive...he can and will score.[/QUOTE]

Yes. The notion that free throw attempts are only impacted by field goal attempts is non sense to begin with. But even if that were true...people still can't grasp that Durant takes better shots (doesn't settle) and is just better at drawing fouls.

Oh my god. Melo takes 4 more shots per game. Unfortunately what they don't realize is that Melo is worse at drawing fouls and settles for bad shots way more often

And then nobody can even give their opinion on how much more Durant should be shooting at the line if all things were equal.

So I'll try it that way. Durant, Kobe, and Melo all take 20 shots a game. How many more free throws should Durant shoot per game?

Lol dmavs you're a lost cause. Do you have LP? Wait no Fvck LP, just watch the nationally televised OKC games and you'll see it. Durant gets more no or almos no contact fouls than any superstar we've seen recently, while Melo is the modern day AI in terms of ref treatment.

You dont need numbers for this sh.it. KD is an elite foul drawer like every other superstar but the refs bail this kid out on literally every miss he acts shaken up on. You can even see opposing players just look at him in disgust sometimes, as if to say "wtf is this s.hit". Prime example would be a game you as an NBA fan couldnt have possibly missed, Christmas OKC VS Heat. Refs were swallowing his *** from all over the place to make the game close at the end, but then of course Bron came back in, dished out some assists and scored a nasty ass fadeaway right in KD's face to put it away

So ****in tired of everyone discrediting Durant because he gets to shoot two more FTs, not realizing the majority of throws he gets is due to OKC being in the bonus usually early. You know beside Durant we got this other player who attacks the rim relentlessly all game and averages 7.7FTA a game himself, so it's another major factor.

durant would be the NBA's leading scorer every single year easily if he had a chris paul pass first type player on his team instead of westbrook.

Didnt read through whole thread so sorry if already posted.
IMHO I think it's not the "amount" of freethrows, but rather the "ways" Durant get the freethrows that makes people complain. For a jumpshooter, Durant really does have excessive freethrows, though an argument can be made that because of his frail body structure, physical play does reflect quite well. Pair that up with him getting the benefit of the doubt in most calls, he is averaging a crazy amount of freethrows. It's not his fault that he gets superstar calls, that's just how the league is run, but when talking about superstar calls, its undeniable that Melo and Lebron, who drives much more that Durant, needs to be absolutely destroyed before they can get calls.

This takes nothing away from Durant though. Though I do think that he gets the benefit of the doubt a lot from watching OKC games, which is usually an freethrow fest:facepalm he is still an awesome scorer.

The fact that he gets more free throws than Russ doesn't really help his case and gtfo with that frail body s.hit. Did AI get to average 14 FTA (he should've) because he was skinny AND got hit hard? Nope. Had that guy been reffed like KD he would've eclipsed every free throw record in his prime, except for maybe most without a miss

[QUOTE=Element]The fact that he gets more free throws than Russ doesn't really help his case and gtfo with that frail body s.hit. Did AI get to average 14 FTA (he should've) because he was skinny AND got hit hard? Nope. Had that guy been reffed like KD he would've eclipsed every free throw record in his prime, except for maybe most without a miss[/QUOTE]

I also disagree with the frail body argument :cheers: , I'm only mentioning it as a comparison to guys like Melo and Bron who are built like tanks.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]So it all amounts to this.

You think Melo is disrespected. You think Kobe shooting more free throws despite shooting less at the rim and less overall doesn't matter because you think Kobe is great at drawing fouls.[/QUOTE]

Again, you're not using logic. Kobe doesn't get to the line at the same ridiculous rate Durant does, or even close. I pointed out Kobe has the best pump fake and footwork in the game, and for years, he's baited defenders into fouling him on jump shots.

[QUOTE]That isn't enough mate. And you don't think any of the evidence to the contrary is acceptable because...well, you don't like it.[/QUOTE]

If there was some evidence contrary to my opinion that was anywhere near as strong as what I've posted then I'd acknowledge it. But there isn't.

[QUOTE]Guess what. You are not making any sense. You can't just talk about fga and shots at the rim without understanding if a said player is as good as the other at drawing fouls.[/QUOTE]

I've said Durant is better at selling fouls and clearly looks to sell them more. That accounts for some, but not all of the huge disparity. This was true last year when Durant was averaging a far more reasonable 7.6 FTA on 19.7 FGA.

[QUOTE]Here are the facts. Melo shoots over 4 more shots from long range a game. Melo also throws the ball wildly at the backboard on drives to get his own tip in. Which does two things;

1. It sometimes prevents from calling a foul because he's out of control
2. It inflates his shots at the rim because he's getting credit for a shot every time he tips it in. He does at least once a game. So that 1.6 shots at the rim logically becomes more like .6 if we are being fair, but of course we aren't because you are so biased[/QUOTE]

You're assuming Melo intentionally does the Moses thing 1 time per game, and I wouldn't say that's accurate at all. Wouldn't surprise me if he averaged one offensive rebound per game on his own misses, maybe even more, but a lot of the time, it's because he tries to make the first shot and misses it, often because there's contact on his first attempt that would get Durant free throws 99% of the time.

[QUOTE]Then we get to Kobe. You have no issue with Kobe vs Melo...yet it is very similar. Why? Because you are biased against Durant...it's so obvious.[/QUOTE]

Again, Kobe has the best pump fake in the game, and the disparity isn't even close to as big. I have no bias against Durant. I've called him the best scorer in the game and the second best player in the game the last 2 years. I'm just not going to watch the games and pretend he deserves the excessive amount of free throws he gets.

[QUOTE]In Durant vs Kobe. Kobe shoots 2.3 more long range shots than Durant a game. He shoots .6 more shots at the rim. So that is a 1.7 difference. Kobe only shoots 2.5 more shots overall than Durant. Durant most likely takes more technical free throws as well. The margin is incredibly small...and we haven't even factored in the most important thing...[/QUOTE]

The long range shots doesn't make much more of a difference. If you want to we can look at shots 10 feet and in, which is closer with Melo at 7.3 and Durant at 7.0. Even so, Durant still gets to the line at a much higher rate.

[QUOTE]Durant is better at drawing fouls than Kobe.[/QUOTE]

Actually, no, he isn't. He flops, which Kobe doesn't do, but Kobe is definitely better at getting guys off their feet with his fakes, and Kobe is defended every bit as tight on his jump shots as Durant is, and probably gets fouled more on them than anyone in the league.

If you want to talk about biases, everyone on this board knows you're biased against Kobe, and it's obvious in probably 75% of your posts about him.

[QUOTE]You argument is flawed and biased and your refusal to acknowledge that the two guys you keep supporting are probably the two guys in the league that take the worst shots consistently. Durant doesn't settle that much...that is you answer. Those possessions where Kobe and Melo just take a long contested jumper...Durant is attacking and drawing fouls.[/QUOTE]

And you really think that disparity comes on mid-range jumpers? You think more of these fouls are coming there than at the rim? It's obvious what's going on here. You made a simple-minded argument posting just FTA, I provided context, you tried to do the same by eliminating 3s, I did you one better again, but you're too stubborn to admit it

[QUOTE]But again. What is more likely? That Kobe and Melo settle a little more and that Durant is just noticeably better at drawing fouls? Or that the NBA has a conspiracy against the likes of Melo and Kobe?

Please...[/QUOTE]

So you think that Melo and Durant are officiated the same way? Thanks, you've just told me that you don't watch Knick games which explains a lot.

You still haven't tried to explain why Durant's own FTA have increased so much from last year.

It's not Durant getting to the line more than Melo that bothers me, it's the enormous difference, and not just between them. Durant and virtually every other superstar I've seen.

You want to see a real comparison with Lebron and Durant too? Durant averages 17.9 FGA and Lebron averages 18. Virtually the same, yet Durant averages 9.4 FTA while Lebron averages 7.0.

Lebron takes 6.7 shots at the rim per game. That's 2.7 more than the Durant. And you can't even try to your flawed 3 point argument here either because Durant takes 4.2 threes while Lebron takes 3.5.

In this case, Lebron usually doesn't take technicals, but I can tell you that Durant isn't averaging anywhere near 2.4 technicals per game.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Oh...and Shaq. Your argument about Melo shooting more late game free throws.

Durant takes 20 free throws per 36 minutes of crunch time.
Melo takes 10.5 free throws per 36 minutes of crunch time.

So, uhhh, no....

Here is my main issue with you. If Durant took 2 more 3's per game...and 1 more long jumper. He'd be taking 21 shots a game and his free throw attempts could conceivably not even go up given the nature of the shots.

And your entire argument would go out the window. Not to mention...I've been agreeing to argue this based on the premise that fga determines fta. Which I don't think is true at all to begin with...there are so many other factors that go into this in addition to fga. So you acting like fga vs fta is the only metric is absurd to begin with. But I've been arguing that way so we'll have somewhat common ground.[/QUOTE]

I never mentioned anything about free throws in crunch time in particular. I simply stated that Melo is almost always on the court to end quarters in general, meaning all 4. His rests usually come to start the 2nd and to start the 4th. Durant actually often rests the last few minutes of the 1st and last few minutes of the 3rd.

And your argument is still invalid, in this post, I've expanded FGA from at the rim to inside 10 feet in general, and Melo still takes more.

Plus, there's a comparison between Lebron and Durant, and not only does Lebron take far more shots at the rim, but he takes fewer 3s.

DMAVS going full retard, but it's nothing new. :lol :roll:

Damn Shaq you just destroyed every facet of his "argument". Well done sir:applause:

overrated & stat paddar :banana:

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Again, you're not using logic. Kobe doesn't get to the line at the same ridiculous rate Durant does, or even close. I pointed out Kobe has the best pump fake and footwork in the game, and for years, he's baited defenders into fouling him on jump shots.



If there was some evidence contrary to my opinion that was anywhere near as strong as what I've posted then I'd acknowledge it. But there isn't.



I've said Durant is better at selling fouls and clearly looks to sell them more. That accounts for some, but not all of the huge disparity. This was true last year when Durant was averaging a far more reasonable 7.6 FTA on 19.7 FGA.



You're assuming Melo intentionally does the Moses thing 1 time per game, and I wouldn't say that's accurate at all. Wouldn't surprise me if he averaged one offensive rebound per game on his own misses, maybe even more, but a lot of the time, it's because he tries to make the first shot and misses it, often because there's contact on his first attempt that would get Durant free throws 99% of the time.



Again, Kobe has the best pump fake in the game, and the disparity isn't even close to as big. I have no bias against Durant. I've called him the best scorer in the game and the second best player in the game the last 2 years. I'm just not going to watch the games and pretend he deserves the excessive amount of free throws he gets.



The long range shots doesn't make much more of a difference. If you want to we can look at shots 10 feet and in, which is closer with Melo at 7.3 and Durant at 7.0. Even so, Durant still gets to the line at a much higher rate.



Actually, no, he isn't. He flops, which Kobe doesn't do, but Kobe is definitely better at getting guys off their feet with his fakes, and Kobe is defended every bit as tight on his jump shots as Durant is, and probably gets fouled more on them than anyone in the league.

If you want to talk about biases, everyone on this board knows you're biased against Kobe, and it's obvious in probably 75% of your posts about him.



And you really think that disparity comes on mid-range jumpers? You think more of these fouls are coming there than at the rim? It's obvious what's going on here. You made a simple-minded argument posting just FTA, I provided context, you tried to do the same by eliminating 3s, I did you one better again, but you're too stubborn to admit it



So you think that Melo and Durant are officiated the same way? Thanks, you've just told me that you don't watch Knick games which explains a lot.

You still haven't tried to explain why Durant's own FTA have increased so much from last year.

It's not Durant getting to the line more than Melo that bothers me, it's the enormous difference, and not just between them. Durant and virtually every other superstar I've seen.

You want to see a real comparison with Lebron and Durant too? Durant averages 17.9 FGA and Lebron averages 18. Virtually the same, yet Durant averages 9.4 FTA while Lebron averages 7.0.

Lebron takes 6.7 shots at the rim per game. That's 2.7 more than the Durant. And you can't even try to your flawed 3 point argument here either because Durant takes 4.2 threes while Lebron takes 3.5.

In this case, Lebron usually doesn't take technicals, but I can tell you that Durant isn't averaging anywhere near 2.4 technicals per game.



I never mentioned anything about free throws in crunch time in particular. I simply stated that Melo is almost always on the court to end quarters in general, meaning all 4. His rests usually come to start the 2nd and to start the 4th. Durant actually often rests the last few minutes of the 1st and last few minutes of the 3rd.

And your argument is still invalid, in this post, I've expanded FGA from at the rim to inside 10 feet in general, and Melo still takes more.

Plus, there's a comparison between Lebron and Durant, and not only does Lebron take far more shots at the rim, but he takes fewer 3s.[/QUOTE]


Your "rate" is solely based on fga. You are assuming that fga is what determines free throw attempts. It is a factor, but not the sole factor. Harden and Durant destroy that theory....unless you are claiming that both of them get special treatment that no other players in the league get.

How do you feel about Harden.

FGA does not solely determine FTA. However, even if it did. Take Kobe vs Durant. Here is what we've determined;

1. Durant is better at drawing fouls.
2. Kobe takes 2.4 more shots a game. I'm saying that Kobe takes at least 2 to 3 bad shots a game that he is very unlikely to get fouled on vs what Durant does. Hence Durant's superior efficiency. Durant doesn't have to take as many bail out shots as Kobe does...partly because his team...and partly because he doesn't chuck as much.

Durant should shoot at a higher rate. You still are avoiding the entire thing. FGA is not the sole factor. Kobe takes more long shots and more bail out shots. Kobe is worse at drawing fouls.

Hence you get a logical conclusion of Durant going to the line roughly .8 more times in the same amount of minutes. You can't just arbitrarily talk about rate when Kobe's field goal attempts in which he can get fouled on are less.

And you certainly can't just claim that Kobe is great at drawing fouls on jump shots like it means anything. We've already determined Durant is better at drawing fouls.

So..more long shots, not as good at drawing fouls. On 3's alone you have to remove 1 shot a game.

It is amazing how stupid people are on here if they think you are "winning" an argument when you are simply defining what free throw rate is based on your own absurd field goal attempt standard...when all the evidence flies in the face of that with Durant and Harden shooting the most in the league on limited attempts.

And even more. Kobe's extra fga are just more long bad shots. If Durant took 3 more shots a game....and those extra 3 were just 2 more long jumpers and 1 more 3. His free throws might not move at all. So what would you think then. That is why Durant is shooting at a higher rate this year. He's cut out some of his bad shots....he's taking 1 less three a game...and if you have watched at all, he's taking less bailout shots and trying to attack instead. Hence you see the difference. What? Crazy how logic and evidence works. Last year those extra 2 shots a game did nothing to impact his free throws because those 2 shots were bad long shots or a three. How can you not see that?

Please answer. Would you have a problem with Durant shooting the exact same amount of free throws if he shots 21 shots a game? Please answer.

As for Melo. It isn't only about where shots come from. But if it was, Melo also takes more from deep. 2 more threes and 2 more long jumpers. So please try to remotely stay even. I will say it again. FGA is not the only factor here. And Durant draws fouls in way that is different than other guys...obviously. That is what you can't figure out. Melo takes 4 more shots a game. And I'd say 3 of them he has no ability to even get fouled because they are bailout shots or threes...as he takes 2 more threes.

Still can't figure it out can you? Durant takes better shots. Less long bailout jumpers and threes...and is better at drawing free throws. And he's on the court more than both of them. And we are still worrying about .8 more trips to the free throw line per game? Seems right in line with everything you've said.

All this comes down to is that you keep saying that Durant is better at drawing fouls...but you aren't factoring that in at all. You also aren't giving any credit to Durant for his superior shot selection and lack of settling. The numbers alone show this. If you removed the "bad shots" that Kobe and Melo take...your fga argument falls apart. You can keep saying it doesn't, and you can mention shots within 10 feet, but that doesn't matter when you already admitted Durant was better at drawing fouls...and you are conveniently ignoring that. If we removed the fat of bad shots and 3's....

17.9 vs 18.4 vs 19

That is what the real fga would look like in reality in terms of when they can get fouled. And for a player that is superior at drawing contact...even on the limited and narrow minded fga vs fta rate....you would get nothing wrong with Durant going to the line a little less than 1 more time per game.

Explain Harden...you keep saying..every other superstar you've seen. The two leading free throw shooters take less shots than the other guys. So either the league has a conspiracy against the likes of Lebron, Melo, and Durant....or you are just wrong in your theory. Which one do you think it is?

Stop pretending like you brought context by solely bringing up fga. That is one of many factors in free throw attempts. And again...thank you for not admitting that Kobe and Melo don't take more bad shots. Clear you don't watch any Knicks or Thunder games. Those guys settle way more...hence the much worse efficiency. Crazy how that works.

And we haven't even determined how many tech free throws these guys have shot either. LOL

Oh, I forgot the shots within 10 feet argument.

So you have

7.3 for Melo
7.0 for Durant

But then...how about shots 16 feet and out

11.6 for Melo
8.0 for Durant

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Sorry, those extra 3.6 threes, bad, and bailout shots a game matter. It cuts way down on the fga Melo has in which a foul is reasonable...especially considering how Durant is far superior at drawing fouls on jumpers.

So, no more hiding. How many free throws per game... Not per fga...should Durant be shooting. Please answer. Give us an answer so we know how far off his current total of 9.4 a game is.

And in case you miss it. Please answer the Harden dilemma. Who shots more free throws and less shots than Durant. Not a good look for your fga vs fta rate nonsense.

And this has nothing to do with Kobe. We've been talking about Melo...mainly because your argument holds no water with Kobe. He's only taking 2.4 more shots per game and one of them is a three. And he's clearly worse at drawing fouls at this point in his career...and probably takes the most bad shots in the league. Doesn't shoot all the technicals and has nobody else on his team to take bailout shots...like Westbrook does for Durant. Durant should be going to the line more often and the rate at which he does isn't that big at all when you factor in reality.

And will you at least admit that field goal attempts is not the only factor in determining how many free throws a player should take?

Because if you aren't willing to do that...then this is all pointless.

Melo;

- Plays 1.3 less minutes per game
- Takes more bad shots and long shots
- Isn't as good at drawing fouls
- Most likely shoots less technicals

Just doesn't seem all that crazy that he goes to the line less than 1 more time per game. And this actually why the margins are small. You get two free throws when you go to the line. I'll ask again. Would Durant taking 21 shots....let's say the 3 extra shots are all 3's. Would you still bemoan all of this?

The reason FTA/FGA is used is because it's about the best measure we have. It's certainly a much better measure than one's (often biased)opinion.

From the games I watch, it's clear to me that Kobe and Wade are about the best at drawing shooting contact on jumpshots, and amongst the superstars who's games I regularly watch, Lebron and Harden get hacked the most. And therein lies the problem with personal opinion; just look at how much our opinion differs on this subject.

[QUOTE]And even more. Kobe's extra fga are just more long bad shots. If Durant took 3 more shots a game....and those extra 3 were just 2 more long jumpers and 1 more 3. His free throws might not move at all. So what would you think then. That is why Durant is shooting at a higher rate this year. He's cut out some of his bad shots....he's taking 1 less three a game...and if you have watched at all, he's taking less bailout shots and trying to attack instead. Hence you see the difference. What? Crazy how logic and evidence works. Last year those extra 2 shots a game did nothing to impact his free throws because those 2 shots were bad long shots or a three. How can you not see that?[/QUOTE]

This is a slippery slope here. Without evidence to back up these claims, they're all but meaningless, and we certainly shouldn't be trying to make absolute claims such as

[QUOTE]"That is why Durant is shooting at a higher rate this year."[/QUOTE]

or

[QUOTE]17.9 vs 18.4 vs 19

That is what the real fga would look like in reality in terms of when they can get fouled.[/QUOTE]

Without hard evidence, there's simply no way of substantiating claims such as these. For all we know, the circumstances could represent exactly the opposite. "Bad" shots are generally much more well contested, and more contested shots tend to draw more fouls. In all likelihood, Durant's better shot selection - which I agree with - could be working against him in this argument, but without statistical evidence, we simply can't say one way or the other - at least not in this case.

Also, you keep referring to these differences as "small", when they really aren't. 1-3 ppg game differences may be small in the grand scheme of things, but in arguments of generally minuscule margins to begin with, 27/8/7 on 64% vs 30/8/7 on 66% can mean the difference between a top 7-8 peak and a top 5 peak.

And here I am, thought DMAVS41 was a quality poster.
Guilty as charged

[QUOTE=DatAsh]The reason FTA/FGA is used is because it's about the best measure we have. It's certainly a much better measure than one's (often biased)opinion.

From the games I watch, it's clear to me that Kobe and Wade are about the best at drawing shooting contact on jumpshots, and amongst the superstars who's games I regularly watch, Lebron and Harden get hacked the most. And therein lies the problem with personal opinion; just look at how much our opinion differs on this subject.



This is a slippery slope here. Without evidence to back up these claims, they're all but meaningless, and we certainly shouldn't be trying to make absolute claims such as



or



Without hard evidence, there's simply no way of substantiating claims such as these. For all we know, the circumstances could represent exactly the opposite. "Bad" shots are generally much more well contested, and more contested shots tend to draw more fouls. In all likelihood, Durant's better shot selection - which I agree with - could be working against him in this argument, but without statistical evidence, we simply can't say one way or the other - at least not in this case.

Also, you keep referring to these differences as "small", when they really aren't. 1-3 ppg game differences may be small in the grand scheme of things, but in arguments of generally minuscule margins to begin with, 27/8/7 on 64% vs 30/8/7 on 66% can mean the difference between a top 7-8 peak and a top 5 peak.[/QUOTE]

Why is FGA a good measure? When youre fouled youre FGA is substracted and so the more you attempt FT, The less FGA you get.

[QUOTE=knicksman]Why is FGA a good measure? When youre fouled youre FGA is substracted and so the more you attempt FT, The less FGA you get.[/QUOTE]

But that's the case for everyone. It isn't exclusive to certain players in particular, though a valid argument could be made for certain players' ability to power through contact and thereby put themselves in more and-1 scenarios.

It's not a perfect measure by any means, but it's one of the best we have.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]The reason FTA/FGA is used is because it's about the best measure we have. It's certainly a much better measure than one's (often biased)opinion.

From the games I watch, it's clear to me that Kobe and Wade are about the best at drawing shooting contact on jumpshots, and amongst the superstars who's games I regularly watch, Lebron and Harden get hacked the most. And therein lies the problem with personal opinion; just look at how much our opinion differs on this subject.



This is a slippery slope here. Without evidence to back up these claims, they're all but meaningless, and we certainly shouldn't be trying to make absolute claims such as



or



Without hard evidence, there's simply no way of substantiating claims such as these. For all we know, the circumstances could represent exactly the opposite. "Bad" shots are generally much more well contested, and more contested shots tend to draw more fouls. In all likelihood, Durant's better shot selection - which I agree with - could be working against him in this argument, but without statistical evidence, we simply can't say one way or the other - at least not in this case.

Also, you keep referring to these differences as "small", when they really aren't. 1-3 ppg game differences may be small in the grand scheme of things, but in arguments of generally minuscule margins to begin with, 27/8/7 on 64% vs 30/8/7 on 66% can mean the difference between a top 7-8 peak and a top 5 peak.[/QUOTE]

How many shots you take is a factor...but it's not the sole factor. How can you not see that. You guys are acting like they go hand in hand.

There are so many opinions here. Shaq is claiming that Melo is the most disrespected star in the league and that Kobe is the best at drawing fouls on jump shots.

The difference is small when you consider all the evidence.

I am supposed to ignore that Melo takes 4 more shots per game from 16 feet and out...and clearly settles for tough jumpers more than Durant. And, as I've said, even that is flawed given the evidence of Harden...and Martin when you look at him in years past. How many shots these guys take and where they take them matters...but not nearly as much as how good a player is at drawing fouls and how often they try to draw them. But, you know, the evidence supports my side...so still don't get the point of all of this.

We've already all agreed that Durant is better at drawing fouls. He plays 1.3 more minutes per game. He takes less bad shots. He clearly "tries" to get to the line more than Melo.

For those of you not following. How can you claim that fga vs fta is the best measure when the two players leading the league in fta don't take as many fga as the other guys. Harden and Durant shoot more free throws yet they take less shots. That destroys the theory completely.

I was simply showing that even if you use fga...you have to account for things like long jumpers. Yes, shots at the rim are important as well...but Durant is a little different considering how he draws his fouls. Which is clear to anyone that watches him.

Basically Durant and Harden play to get fouled...and they are very good at it. Pretending otherwise is just silly. We saw this with Kevin Martin. Was the league conspiring in his favor the year he shot 8.4 free throws on 15.8 shots...while shooting 5.7 threes a game????? LOL...you people don't have a ****ing let to stand on.

Based on your conspiracy theory and favoritism nonsense...the league was cheating for Kevin ****ing Martin in 2011.

Certain players are really good at drawing fouls...and some of those players try to do it more than others. Durant, this year, has cut out a couple of his long bad shots a game and made a point to try to get to the line. That is why his "rate" has gone up and why it's perfectly reasonable given all the evidence.

And that is why fga is a factor, but not the sole factor.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]But that's the case for everyone; it isn't exclusive to certain players in particular.

It's not a perfect measure by any means, but it's one of the best we have.[/QUOTE]

You don't have to pick and choose what factor you use. You should use all the information. FGA should for sure be used. But we should look into other things as well. Minutes played matter as well. For example;

Durant plays 1.5 more minutes per game than Melo. That alone makes up a bit of the difference as Melo averages roughly .204 free throws per minute. So in that extra 1.5 minutes...Durant gains an average of .31 free throw attempts per game.

So if Melo played the same amount of minutes as Durant, he'd be shooting 7.9 free throws. A small difference, but like I've repeatedly said, everything counts.

So you get 7.9 vs 9.4 when you even up the minutes.

Again. So many factors...and acting like fga is the only one is hugely flawed...and made even worse by your side using it in the wrong way to begin with.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]But that's the case for everyone. It isn't exclusive to certain players in particular, though a valid argument could be made for certain players' ability to power through contact and thereby put themselves in more and-1 scenarios.

It's not a perfect measure by any means, but it's one of the best we have.[/QUOTE]

I dont think its a good measure coz as ive said, the more fta you get, the lesser the fga as long as your possessions per game remains the same.

[QUOTE=knicksman]I dont think its a good measure coz as ive said, the more fta you get, the lesser the fga as long as your possessions per game remains the same.[/QUOTE]

You're missing my point.

[QUOTE=SyRyanYang]And here I am, thought DMAVS41 was a quality poster.
Guilty as charged[/QUOTE]

I question your intelligence if you think that this discussion is somehow evidence to the contrary.

Do you think fga is the sole factor in determining how many free throws a player should shoot?