[QUOTE=jzek]Media always gets tired of giving the MVP trophy to the same guy. If they didn't, Jordan would have won every year in the 90s[/QUOTE]
Jordan should have won 7 in the 90s. He didn't play for 3 years.
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[QUOTE=jzek]Media always gets tired of giving the MVP trophy to the same guy. If they didn't, Jordan would have won every year in the 90s[/QUOTE]
Jordan should have won 7 in the 90s. He didn't play for 3 years.
[QUOTE=LosScandalous]some people say Dwight shoulda won too.
[/QUOTE]
I am one of those people. He got the best results with the least amount of help. Bulls and Heat would've made the playoffs that year without Rose and LeBron. Magic would've been a lottery team without Dwight. Then those numbers he was putting up were unmatched by anybody. The dominance on both ends of the floor. Shit pisses me off all over again.
It was a tough year to pick an MVP.
Statistically, without taking all the context and narrative into account, LeBron was the "normal" choice. A player that averages 27, 7.5 and 7 on 51% shooting with his team winning 58 games (11 more wins than the previous year, but more importantly, the team that played was with the year before had 42 less wins) should be a relatively uncontroversial choice for MVP. However, LeBron had already won 2 in a row, was underachieving by his own standards, and needed to be "punished" by the media for his actions, so not giving him the trophy made sense... but it's clear, looking at it as objectively as possible, that any other player than LeBron, with the same stats and same record, would have won it.
Dwight had the stats, but was handicapped by a 50 win record. Interestingly, he would've been the second MVP in four years to lose in the first round. Dirk had the record (as someone pointed out the Mavs had the best record in the league when he was healthy), but was having a below average statistical regular season by his standards due to injury... Dirk was undoubtedly the playoffs MVP and the player that made the biggest mark on the 2011 season in the end, but his regular season was nothing spectacular for MVP standards.
[QUOTE=nathanjizzle]rose was nothing special at all? i can guarantee the only play youve seen from derrick that season were top ten on espn:roll: yea only winning 4 more games then the heat, but then you look at my stats against elite teams then its more telling, but you dont want to look at them or consider them because "oh no there just stats against elite teams and not what my player does again non competition."
lebron was a loser that season. he played good for 3 quarters and disappeared in the 4th, everyone that watched remembers this. having a losing record against elite teams isnt mvp worthy, especially losing most of the last 9 games against elite teams, and having rose win 12 straight against these elite teams, isnt going to make you mvp over rose. sorry try again.
ohyea, remember at the end of the season the heat falling apart and had a streak of losing games? they were the laughing stalk of the nba. crygate? yea, lebron should have been mvp. smh[/QUOTE]
The Bulls defense is the reason why they even got the best record. The mental midget would've shit the bed if it wasn't for the Thibs and the defense. The Bulls were down in all those games because of Rose's shot jacking. He put them in the hole in the first place. If he played like a proper PG, they wouldn't even have needed all those 4th quarter heroics. 44% for the field? Let not even talk about his defense. As I said, Rose isn't anything special. Put him on a team which is not a defensive powerhouse, he's be a glorified Jennings. Also, the Heat didn't gel properly during the '11 season and yet they won 58 games and went to the Finals.
And for the millionth time, Lebron was a better scorer, passer, rebounder, and defender. The Bulls won only 4 games more than the Heat, thanks to Thibs and the defense, not Rose. Lebron averaged more than Rose and was a better player on a 58 win team and should've been the MVP. If not Lebron, DH deserved it more than Rose as well. The 2011 MVP award is the biggest sports gaffe EVER.
Oh yeah, remember the Heat winning 14 of 17 after that incident?
Side note: Rose got properly exposed in the playoffs. Shot 37% against the Pacers. Nothing worse than a shot jacking PG. 7% in the 4th quarters against the Heat. Glorified Brandon Jennings is what he is.
[QUOTE=aj1987]
Side note: Rose got properly exposed in the playoffs. Shot 37% against the Pacers. Nothing worse than a shot jacking PG. 7% in the 4th quarters against the Heat. Glorified Brandon Jennings is what he is.[/QUOTE]
Classic April 2013er representing. :oldlol:
By the way what did Lebron shoot in the 4th quarters of the 2011 Finals again? Was it even 7%? I recall it being 0% at times because he didn't even make a shot. He sure proved to everyone he deserved the MVP award with his flawless performance against Dirk. :applause:
[QUOTE=Graviton]Classic April 2013er representing. :oldlol:
By the way what did Lebron shoot in the 4th quarters of the 2011 Finals again? Was it even 7%? I recall it being 0% at times because he didn't even make a shot. He sure proved to everyone he deserved the MVP award with his flawless performance against Dirk. :applause:[/QUOTE]
Haha, tough guy eh? What's your favorite player's PER? He doesn't even break 30? Not so tough now eh? :lol
[COLOR="White"]Westbrook is a cripple[/COLOR]
[QUOTE=Psycho]Haha, tough guy eh? What's your favorite player's PER? He doesn't even break 30? Not so tough now eh? :lol
[COLOR="White"]Westbrook is a cripple[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
My favorite player is Wilt actually, so I am not insecure about PER, unlike Perkins fans such as yourself. :cheers:
All I remember is him shooting 6% with LeGod guarding him :oldlol:
Lebron stats in 2011 - 26.7 - 7 -7.5 on 51% FG
Wade stats in 2011 - 25.5-4.6-6.4 on 50% FG
It was the decision year, and lebron could not even separate himself that much from his teamate. Heat underachieved, could not beat a top team in a regular season with a lot of drama ("There were a couple guys crying in the locker room").
No way lebron would have won MVP that year, even if he had the best stats and was the best player. Rose was a new guy and his team won 60+ games, so even if undeserving, he was the right guy to win the mvp by the media standards.
[QUOTE=Graviton]Classic April 2013er representing. :oldlol:
By the way what did Lebron shoot in the 4th quarters of the 2011 Finals again? Was it even 7%? I recall it being 0% at times because he didn't even make a shot. He sure proved to everyone he deserved the MVP award with his flawless performance against Dirk. :applause:[/QUOTE]
25% is what Lebron shot in the 4th, in the Finals. As I said before, I don't care much for Lebron at all. He was a passive bitch and cost Wade a ring and a FMVP. Still, Lebron deserved the MVP that year over Rose.
[QUOTE=aj1987]25% is what Lebron shot in the 4th, in the Finals. As I said before, I don't care much for Lebron at all. He was a passive bitch and cost Wade a ring and a FMVP. Still, Lebron deserved the MVP that year over Rose.[/QUOTE]
Howard maybe, not Lebron.
Wade was a Top 3 player that year on Lebron's own team and put up 25/5/5 on 50%, how the **** can you get an MVP award when arguably the second best player in NBA was on your team and you had another all-star big man? And yet failed to win more games than some all-star PG with defensive role players and no other all-stars. Thibs alone isn't that godly, without Rose Bulls won like 45 games, so the fact you attribute everything to Thibs is retarded.
Howard himself carried absolute scrubs to like 50 wins and had no other all-stars.
Lebron had no case whatsoever over those 2 with prime Wade putting up nearly the same stats as him on the same team. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Graviton]Howard maybe, not Lebron.
Wade was a Top 3 player that year on Lebron's own team and put up 25/5/5 on 50%, how the **** can you get an MVP award when arguably the second best player in NBA was on your team and you had another all-star big man? And yet failed to win more games than some all-star PG with defensive role players and no other all-stars. Thibs alone isn't that godly, without Rose Bulls won like 45 games, so the fact you attribute everything to Thibs is retarded.
Howard himself carried absolute scrubs to like 50 wins and had no other all-stars.
Lebron had no case whatsoever over those 2 with prime Wade putting up nearly the same stats as him on the same team. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
I'm actually a bit conflicted when it comes to DH and Lebron. I wouldn't care if he won it. But Rose winning it was horseshit.
[QUOTE=aj1987]The Bulls defense is the reason why they even got the best record. The mental midget would've shit the bed if it wasn't for the Thibs and the defense. The Bulls were down in all those games because of Rose's shot jacking. He put them in the hole in the first place. If he played like a proper PG, they wouldn't even have needed all those 4th quarter heroics. 44% for the field? Let not even talk about his defense. As I said, Rose isn't anything special. Put him on a team which is not a defensive powerhouse, he's be a glorified Jennings. Also, the Heat didn't gel properly during the '11 season and yet they won 58 games and went to the Finals.
[/QUOTE]
right, thats why rose has this kind of impact on his team
"here are the bulls records against the top 8 teams in the league for 3 seasons one with a healthy rose, one with a semi healthy rose, and one with no rose.
2010-2011 (healthy rose)
14-7
2011-2012 (semi healthy rose)
9-6
2012-2013 (no rose)
5-12"
but but its all thibs and the bulls defense:facepalm
the clear indicator of you not knowing what you are talking about is the fact you said "rose wasnt anything special that season" :facepalm you clearly dont know what you are talking about. youre not even providing any points superseding my stats that i have given you. you keep reverting back to lebrons overall stats, and then i keep telling you he has a losing record against elite teams but you dont want to accept that? youre an idiot.
[QUOTE]The Bulls defense is the reason why they even got the best record. The mental midget would've shit the bed if it wasn't for the Thibs and the defense.[/QUOTE]
The Bulls from 2010 to now have a 64.4 win pace in games Derrick Rose plays. 45 or 46 win pace when he doesnt. They played at a 62 win pace with Noah and rose....63 with Rose and no Noah the year Noah missed half the year. They won 62 with Boozer/Noah combining to miss like 70 games. They went 33-7 with Rose the next year and were average without him.
The defense/coach/supporting cast is the reason they win.
But no Rose...they go from #1 to being average.
They go from....a 67.65 win pace with Rose in 2012.
Win 45 without him the next year. They win at a 60-70 win pace even with injuries to Noah, Boozer, and so on when Rose is there. Hes out....they cant maintain.
We are talking a 20+ win difference maker.
But hes a problem due to shooting percentages....
Care to explain how all his destructive misses makes the team win at an all time great rate but without them they become the Atlanta Hawks?
Enlighten me.
[QUOTE=nathanjizzle]right, thats why rose has this kind of impact on his team
"here are the bulls records against the top 8 teams in the league for 3 seasons one with a healthy rose, one with a semi healthy rose, and one with no rose.
2010-2011 (healthy rose)
14-7
2011-2012 (semi healthy rose)
9-6
2012-2013 (no rose)
5-12"
but but its all thibs and the bulls defense:facepalm
the clear indicator of you not knowing what you are talking about is the fact you said "rose wasnt anything special that season" :facepalm you clearly dont know what you are talking about. youre not even providing any points superseding my stats that i have given you. you keep reverting back to lebrons overall stats, and then i keep telling you he has a losing record against elite teams but you dont want to accept that? youre an idiot.[/QUOTE]
Hey dumbass, the Bulls were the best defensive team in the NBA in 2011 and were 11th offensively. They were really good defensively. Guess what's the one thing that Rose can't do at all? PLAY DEFENSE. Of course, the Bulls are going to be better with Rose. He is a shot jacker, but he can score. They do not have a reliable scorer other than Rose and they need him for his scoring. [B]Replace the mental midget with Lebron and they win over 68 games that year. Hell, replace Rose with any other good scorer and they win over 66 games.[/B]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2011.html[/url]
I'd like to see Rose on a team like the Bucks. He's be nothing more than a rich man's version of Brandon Jennings. The fact is Lebron had the best stats in the NBA on a 58 win team and as Gravitron pointed out, DH was a better MVP candidate than Srubrick Rose.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]
Enlighten me.[/QUOTE]
No need to. Just replace him with a good scorer. Wade, Lebron, Kobe, Durant, etc. in place of Rose on the 2011 Bulls team would've led them to over 66 wins. Lebron or Wade or Kobe would've won the Bulls their first ring since MJ.
[QUOTE=aj1987]No need to. Just replace him with a good scorer. Wade, Lebron, Kobe, Durant, etc. in place of Rose on the 2011 Bulls team would've led them to over 66 wins. Lebron or Wade or Kobe would've won the Bulls their first ring since MJ.[/QUOTE]
You just completely ignored his question and started deflecting to some irrelevant hypothetical fantasy territory. :oldlol:
[B]"Care to explain how all his destructive misses makes the team win at an all time great rate but without them they become the Atlanta Hawks?"[/B]
How old are you? Your debating skills, use of logic and critical thinking to form objective conclusions based on actual facts/evidence is non existent. :facepalm
I thought this was 2013? Are you guys really THAT bored? Wow.
[QUOTE=Graviton]You just completely ignored his question and started deflecting to some irrelevant hypothetical fantasy territory. :oldlol:
[B]"Care to explain how all his destructive misses makes the team win at an all time great rate but without them they become the Atlanta Hawks?"[/B]
How old are you? Your debating skills, use of logic and critical thinking to form objective conclusions based on actual facts/evidence is non existent. :facepalm[/QUOTE]
Retard, re-read my post. The only thing the Bulls needed was a decent scorer. And hence,..:facepalm
Since you might be a little slow, let me explain in detail. The Bulls were tremendous defensively in 2011. The only thing they needed was a scorer, who could score at an average clip. That's exactly what Rose did. He was a scored and he did it at an average clip (25 on 44%). The Bulls lost because they were missing the 25PPG that Rose delivered. Is that so hard to figure out? It's not like they traded Rose. He was hurt and no one replaced him. They didn't have anyone who could step up enough offensively. And hence, replace Rose with Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Durant, etc (a good scorer). they would do better. I don't expect a Chuckbrick fan to understand this though.
[QUOTE=aj1987]Retard, re-read my post. The only thing the Bulls needed was a decent scorer. And hence,..:facepalm
Since you might be a little slow, let me explain in detail. The Bulls were tremendous defensively in 2011. The only thing they needed was a scorer, who could score at an average clip. That's exactly what Rose did. He was a scored and he did it at an average clip (25 on 44%). The Bulls lost because they were missing the 25PPG that Rose delivered. Is that so hard to figure out? It's not like they traded Rose. He was hurt and no one replaced him. They didn't have anyone who could step up enough offensively. And hence, replace Rose with Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Durant, etc (a good scorer). they would do better. I don't expect a Chuckbrick fan to understand this though.[/QUOTE]
You seem like a very mature and level headed boy, I am sure you have many friends in real life that discuss lot of interesting topics with you.
Carry on.
[QUOTE=Graviton]You seem like a very mature and level headed boy, I am sure you have many friends in real life that discuss lot of interesting topics with you.
Carry on.[/QUOTE]
Yes I do and yes we do. Have a good day.
It's not a travesty, enough already. It's been beaten to death and he was a top candidate that year to grab it.
I certainly didn't lose any sleep over it when he won it.
To be honest, there have been many MVPs who were probably questionable, and many that went to players who would not be considered the best player in the game, too.
[QUOTE=Graviton]Howard maybe, not Lebron.
Wade was a Top 3 player that year on Lebron's own team and put up 25/5/5 on 50%, how the **** can you get an MVP award when arguably the second best player in NBA was on your team and you had another all-star big man? And yet failed to win more games than some all-star PG with defensive role players and no other all-stars. Thibs alone isn't that godly, without Rose Bulls won like 45 games, so the fact you attribute everything to Thibs is retarded.
Howard himself carried absolute scrubs to like 50 wins and had no other all-stars.
Lebron had no case whatsoever over those 2 with prime Wade putting up nearly the same stats as him on the same team. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Totally gets it.
Kobe in '08 and Nash in '06 were worse
[QUOTE=Graviton]Howard maybe, not Lebron.
Wade was a Top 3 player that year on Lebron's own team and put up 25/5/5 on 50%, how the **** can you get an MVP award when arguably the second best player in NBA was on your team and you had another all-star big man? And yet failed to win more games than some all-star PG with defensive role players and no other all-stars. Thibs alone isn't that godly, without Rose Bulls won like 45 games, so the fact you attribute everything to Thibs is retarded.
Howard himself carried absolute scrubs to like 50 wins and had no other all-stars.
Lebron had no case whatsoever over those 2 with prime Wade putting up nearly the same stats as him on the same team. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
" he has good teammates " is without a doubt the worst argument possible. People punish players for being on good teams. Its almost like they would br better off playing on bad teams. Such a ridiculous argument
2011 was definitely one of the closest years individually EVER...
You could have made an MVP argument for FOUR guys: LeBron, Dirk, Howard, Rose...
In that order (really close), hence Rose had the weakest, IMO.
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]2011 was definitely one of the closest years individually EVER...
You could have made an MVP argument for FOUR guys: LeBron, Dirk, Howard, Rose...
In that order (really close), hence Rose had the weakest, IMO.[/QUOTE]
Dirk was not in serious MVP discussions. People say he was the best that year because of his epic playoff run, but if you look at his regular season in a vaccuum, it didn't really stand out. He finished 6th in MVP voting without a single 1st place vote for a reason. Personally I was most impressed with Dwight, but his team's win total didn't match historically with the trend of the award. Lebron declined all around from the previous year and was missed a TON of game winners as well. A bit disappointing relative to his previous two seasons, especially with the expectations of the Heat going into the year and the result being 2nd place in their conference. If you judge it based on the historical trend of the MVP, Rose winning it is not surprising at all. Unsuspecting, great numbers, #1 seed overall.
[QUOTE=chazzy]Dirk was not in serious MVP discussions. People say he was the best that year because of his epic playoff run, but if you look at his regular season in a vaccuum, it didn't really stand out. He finished 6th in MVP voting without a single 1st place vote for a reason. Personally I was most impressed with Dwight, but his team's win total didn't match historically with the trend of the award.[B] Lebron declined all around from the previous year and was missed a TON of game winners as well.[/B] A bit disappointing relative to his previous two seasons, especially with the expectations of the Heat going into the year and the result being 2nd place in their conference. If you judge it based on the historical trend of the MVP, Rose winning it is not surprising at all. Unsuspecting, great numbers, #1 seed overall.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I remember this. Dwight had a chance of winning over him but LeBron and Dirk not so much.
Travesty to anyone not a Bulls fan. Yet, it remains history. Eat it.
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]2011 was definitely one of the closest years individually EVER...
You could have made an MVP argument for FOUR guys: LeBron, Dirk, Howard, Rose...
In that order (really close), hence Rose had the weakest, IMO.[/QUOTE]
Why did you bump this? Don't we have enough idiotic posts on this subject?
It wasnt. Rose was the best player on the best team.
He wasnt a top 5 player though, but it happens.
[QUOTE=navy]It wasnt. Rose was the best player on the best team.
He wasnt a top 5 player though, but it happens.[/QUOTE]
this comment is ignorant. derrick rose made the bulls the best team, he just wasnt "the best player on best team":facepalm i guess jordan only won mvps because he was the best player on the best team right?
arguing a "top 5 player" accounts for prior seasons. so in concensus thinking in 2011 top 5 players would be lebron duncan kobe dirk and who ever else. But the player that played the best that season, rose was top 2, he just played better than everyone else whether you believe it or not, the only person you can argue is dwight really.
at the end of the day, in reality, he won the mvp because he out performed everyone. you making statements otherwise almost 4 years removed is just false and ignorant.
Not a travesty. It was a weak year for the MVP...I would've gone Dwight but D-rose winning it wasn't that bad.
Why do people still make these threads? LeBron had no case for MVP in 2011. If you're going to complain, at least do it with a little historical accuracy and talk about Howard maybe even deserving it, and even that's a debatable point. Calling it a "travesty" though is straight up trolling.
[QUOTE=SpecialQue]Why did you bump this? Don't we have enough idiotic posts on this subject?[/QUOTE]
Its a contest.
[QUOTE=nathanjizzle]this comment is ignorant. derrick rose made the bulls the best team, he just wasnt "the best player on best team":facepalm [/quote]
Exactly. Look at how all the best players played when they should have been the best team, when they were in Rose's situation with a new team. Lebron/Wade/Bosh a super team, Kobe/DH/Nash a super team, CP3/Blake/Crawford/DJ a super team, Durant/Brook/Baka a super team. The biggest difference - outside of the injuries, experience, age or knowing each other which all worked against Rose was that Rose made his team the best team with the best record. Not one of them overachieved.
[quote] he just played better than everyone else whether you believe it or not, the only person you can argue is dwight really.
at the end of the day, in reality, he won the mvp because he out performed everyone. you making statements otherwise almost 4 years removed is just false and ignorant.[/QUOTE]
Well said again. Howard had two teams, lost the first one because the GM thought they were gutless. Nobody will win the MVP of two teams and the GM thinking one of the teams was gutless and the second team just wasn't good. And neither was Howard when it counted most. NOT EVER GOING TO HAPPEN and rightfully so.
[QUOTE=SpecialQue]Why did you bump this? Don't we have enough idiotic posts on this subject?[/QUOTE]
Felt like pointed out the 4-man race it was/should have been... Maybe get some mentions on other years where it's been that close, or at least a 3-headed duel.
@ chazzy: I'm aware Dirk wasn't in the talks at the time... Well aware. I just think it's unfair.
These numbers present a HUGE argument:
Mavericks were 57-25 for the season, good for 4th best record and 3rd in the West.
Dallas was 2-7 (.222) without Dirk, 1-3 (.250) with a getting-into-shape Dirk, and 54-15 (.783) with a healthy Dirk. That record with him healthy would've been good for BEST in the NBA.
[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]Felt like pointed out the 4-man race it was/should have been... Maybe get some mentions on other years where it's been that close, or at least a 3-headed duel.
@ chazzy: I'm aware Dirk wasn't in the talks at the time... Well aware. I just think it's unfair.
These numbers present a HUGE argument:
Mavericks were 57-25 for the season, good for 4th best record and 3rd in the West.
Dallas was 2-7 (.222) without Dirk, 1-3 (.250) with a getting-into-shape Dirk, and 54-15 (.783) with a healthy Dirk. That record with him healthy would've been good for BEST in the NBA.[/QUOTE]
They don't present a huge argument at all.
They were on a road trip against 6 teams that [B]beat them at home WITH Dirk! [/B] Plus they lost their number 2 scorer to further unbalance the team. There isn't a team in the league that wouldn't go through major problems without their top two scorers on the road. Its a joke to bring it up.
You have to at least get one first place vote to really be considered. If you don't get one vote then you have to chalk it up to just not knowing how the system works. Rose had over 110 first place votes and nobody else got five. Most people here on this board knew it. The only travesty is that literate fans don't know how it works. Different if it was close like most years - but it wasn't.
[QUOTE=Lakers2877]" he has good teammates " is without a doubt the worst argument possible. People punish players for being on good teams. Its almost like they would br better off playing on bad teams. Such a ridiculous argument[/QUOTE]
way to take it out of context, Rose had worse teamates and managed to get more wins than Lebron with 2 other all star players. Hows that so hard to understand? You need to think about what MVP actually means.