the only man to win multiple championships without another NBA HOF team mate

[QUOTE=HurricaneKid]<-- Watches Pau led the Lakers in PER, WS, Postseason PER, Postseason WS, Finals WS in 2010.

<-- Watches Laker fans crush Pau.

<-- Watches D12 leave LA.

<-- UNDERSTANDS.[/QUOTE]
Be careful of that Playoff Win Share stat. Remember Kobe led one of the Shaq/Kobe rings in playoff Win Shares.

Shaq won 4 titles without a HoF player.

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]......[/QUOTE]


Without a HOF teammate for NOW, dude. Gasol will be in the Hall.

And as I said, at the time they won, Bird, Magic and Jordan won multiple titles WITHOUT HOF teammates, too.

Man, Pau gets hated on so much. No one thinks Gasol is that great of a pf/c from an all-time perspective. Obviously Drobb, Hakeem, Ewing, Zo, Shaq, etc would demolish him no one is arguing that. He's more Rony Seikaly or Brad Daugherty than those guys.

But... [B]THERE ARE NO HAKEEMS, EWINGS, ETC IN GASOL'S ERA.[/B] Kobe got the best 7 footer available in the market and you have to think about it that way. Who else was Kobe going to get? Dwight? You guys all think he's an "exposed scrub". Plus Gasol outplayed him straight up in the finals.

I don't see why we can't just agree that Gasol with his own team and no quality teammates is 1st round fodder or missing the PO's, but guess what... so is Kobe! Kobe needed Gasol as much as Gasol needed him.

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]you just owned yourself

btw thanks for pointing out [B]kobe is the only 100% guaranteed hof'er[/B] in the nba


1. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
2. Tim Duncan 0.9999
3. LeBron James 0.9995
4. Dwyane Wade 0.9991
5. Kevin Garnett 0.9990
6. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9867
7. Paul Pierce 0.9827
8. Ray Allen 0.9663
9. Chris Bosh 0.9484
10. Chris Paul 0.8911
11. Tony Parker 0.8319
12. Carmelo Anthony 0.8167
13. Dwight Howard 0.8072
[B]14. Vince Carter 0.7678[/B]
15. Kevin Durant 0.7203
16. Pau Gasol 0.6127
[B]17. Tracy McGrady 0.5822[/B]
18. Steve Nash 0.5627
[B]19. Amar'e Stoudemire 0.5560[/B]

the bold wont make the HOF


and dont you find it funny how durant has .10 more points on his HOF possibility than gasol when gasols nearly finished his career and durant has barely started his

plus.. durant hasnt done anything yet except win scoring titles. and even if his career ended tomorrow he'd have no chance ( with .10 points more than gasol )


infact. nash without his 2 mvps would have no shot at the HOF either


only guys who are hall of famers if they retired tomorrow on that list are

1. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
2. Tim Duncan 0.9999
3. LeBron James 0.9995
4. Dwyane Wade 0.9991
5. Kevin Garnett 0.9990
6. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9867
7. Paul Pierce 0.9827
8. Ray Allen 0.9663
9. Chris Bosh 0.9484
10. Chris Paul 0.8911
11. Tony Parker 0.8319

with a wild card exception for nash due to his mvps

which basically means you need around 0.80+ to make it


gasols nowhere close as far as NBA accolades


sorry. thanks for proving my point for me

:cheers:[/QUOTE]

The reason why Kobe is the only 100% HOFer is because Duncan, KG, Dirk AND GASOL are being penalized in that stat for [B]HEIGHT[/B].

After trying numerous models, my final model had seven predictor variables:

[B][U]height (in inches)[/U][/B]
last season indicator (1 if 1959-60 or before, 0 otherwise)
NBA points per game
NBA rebounds per game
NBA assists per game
[B]NBA All-Star game selections[/B]
NBA championships won
All of the predictors listed above were significant at the 0.05 level. [B]Other than height, all of the predictors had positive coefficients[/B].

Using the author's method, the taller a player is, the more that's [B]SUBTRACTED[/B] from this author's probability of being in the HOF. Note also that all-star game selections (basically a popularity contest) is used as a predictor but not MVPs or Finals MVPs. Please read author's criteria before using this as Gospel.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Yea.

Before coming to the Lakers. Gasol was a career 19/9/3 on around 57% TS 22 PER player capable of being the clear cut best player on a 50 win team.

The way Kobe fans talk about Gasol is just shocking.[/QUOTE]

Why is it shocking to you?

Before coming to the Heat. Bosh was a career 20/9/2 on around 57% TS 21 PER player capable of being the clear cut best player on a 47 win team.

Yet you like to pretend he's on par with Lamar Odom. :roll:

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Why is it shocking to you?

Before coming to the Heat. Bosh was a career 20/9/2 on around 57% TS 21 PER player capable of being the clear cut best player on a 47 win team.

Yet you like to pretend he's on par with Lamar Odom. :roll:[/QUOTE]
I could of sworn he was talking about his role has a 3rd best player in the Heat system. The same system that has Gosh shoot jumpsuits all game every game. More specifically it was playoff performance.

Gotta give credit to the OP

Getting you clowns to qualify Pau Gasol as a HOFer as if that changes anything.

Even counting Pau as a HOFer you are left with Kobe ringing not once, not twice, not three times, not four times but five times with just one HOF teammate per title team.

Unmatched in history.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Why is it shocking to you?

Before coming to the Heat. Bosh was a career 20/9/2 on around 57% TS 21 PER player capable of being the clear cut best player on a 47 win team.

Yet you like to pretend he's on par with Lamar Odom. :roll:[/QUOTE]

In his 3rd option role in 2012 and 2013...he's been as impactful or less than Odom on the 09 and 10 Lakers

Also, Bosh isn't producing great like Gasol did in the playoffs. You think anyone would be saying anything about Bosh if he had a 20/11/4 playoffs? LOL

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]another person that has a problem with reading comprehension

:roll:


[SIZE="4"]anyone can make the hall of fame

as an ambassador, coach, owner, executive, sponsor, international contributor, pioneer, nba player, wnba player etc...
[/SIZE]


kobe had no other legit nba hall of famer

gasols nba hof rating is 0.621

[B][U]
the minimum to make the hall of fame is 0.83-0.84[/U][/B][/QUOTE]

Steven Nash will for sure make the Hall. His rating is less than Gasol's.

Look at some of the other players on that list that made the Hall;

Dumars with a .4673

The fact that Dumars is in the Hall destroys you. It's over.

Gasol has better numbers...same number of titles...Dumars only played 14 seasons total

Dumars is in. That means Gasol is a lock on NBA play alone. End of story. There is no way you could have Dumars in the Hall of Fame and Gasol not in...would be idiotic.

Sorry.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]In his 3rd option role in 2012 and 2013...he's been as impactful or less than Odom on the 09 and 10 Lakers

Also, Bosh isn't producing great like Gasol did in the playoffs. You think anyone would be saying anything about Bosh if he had a 20/11/4 playoffs? LOL[/QUOTE]


Not to mention the main reason Bosh hasn't been himself since the 11 playoffs was being forced out of his comfort zone by Wade and then Lebron.

He was a 24/11/2 59% TS 25 PER guy in the 2010 regular season.

And I bet you see him get back to producing very well if his idiotic coach can put him in the right position to excel.

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9035099&postcount=30[/url]

:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Not to mention the main reason Bosh hasn't been himself since the 11 playoffs was being forced out of his comfort zone by Wade and then Lebron.

He was a 24/11/2 59% TS 25 PER guy in the 2010 regular season.

And I bet you see him get back to producing very well if his idiotic coach can put him in the right position to excel.

:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

I don't think Bosh can perform well enough defensively to get the minutes that would get him back to performing like that.

But yes, actually, Bosh put into a better position could easily get back to producing 18/8/2 like he did in 11.

But you are confusing yourself. Gasol actually did play great in the playoffs. Bosh has yet to play on that Gasol level on both ends in the playoffs since coming to the Heat.

So it's not a good comparison at all. And Bosh didn't take heat much for the 11 playoffs when he performed well enough I guess.

But stop comparing a 20/11/4 player that also plays quality interior defense to a 13/8/1 player these last two years in the playoffs that struggles defensively.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Not to mention the main reason Bosh hasn't been himself since the 11 playoffs was being forced out of his comfort zone by Wade and then Lebron.

He was a 24/11/2 59% TS 25 PER guy in the 2010 regular season.

And I bet you see him get back to producing very well if his idiotic coach can put him in the right position to excel.

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9035099&postcount=30[/url]

:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Doesn't matter. His role on the offense is hit the open jumper and defense/rebs. Odom did Betterr or equal those specific years with Kobe.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Doesn't matter. His role on the offense is hit the open jumper and defense/rebs. Odom did Betterr or equal those specific years with Kobe.[/QUOTE]


This.

People are either just dumb...or they play dumb.

I have never said Odom is better than Bosh as the best player on a team. I've said that in the role of the third best player on a contender...they have a similar impact. I'd probably rather have Odom.

That is the argument. Not that Odom is a better player overall. It's about the role they play now.

You don't get extra points in a game because your 3rd option used to be better player or something. You dont' get extra points because he makes the all star game.

I want these morons to tell me how 12 and 13 Bosh in the playoffs is any better than 09 and 10 Odom.


They won't be able to. They'll have to talk about some nonsense about allstar games and what Bosh used to do.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I don't think Bosh can perform well enough defensively to get the minutes that would get him back to performing like that.

But yes, actually, Bosh put into a better position could easily get back to producing 18/8/2 like he did in 11.

But you are confusing yourself. Gasol actually did play great in the playoffs. Bosh has yet to play on that Gasol level on both ends in the playoffs since coming to the Heat.

So it's not a good comparison at all. And Bosh didn't take heat much for the 11 playoffs when he performed well enough I guess.

But stop comparing a 20/11/4 player that also plays [B]quality interior defense[/B] to a 13/8/1 player these last two years in the playoffs that [B]struggles defensively[/B].[/QUOTE]

I'm going to have see some "evidence" to support these statements.

As usual you are already off on some bizarre tangent.

In what way do Pau Gasol's regular season stats prior to joining the Lakers differ from Chris Bosh's prior to joining the Heat such that criticising one is "shocking" while the other is one of your favorite targets?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]This.

People are either just dumb...or they play dumb.

I have never said Odom is better than Bosh as the best player on a team. I've said that in the role of the third best player on a contender...they have a similar impact. I'd probably rather have Odom.

That is the argument. Not that Odom is a better player overall. It's about the role they play now.

You don't get extra points in a game because your 3rd option used to be better player or something. You dont' get extra points because he makes the all star game.

I want these morons to tell me how 12 and 13 Bosh in the playoffs is any better than 09 and 10 Odom.


They won't be able to. They'll have to talk about some nonsense about allstar games and what Bosh used to do.[/QUOTE]

I would say in this instance I am playing dumb since I completely used your own words and just substituted stats and names. You are arguing against yourself and calling yourself stupid in the process. Good job.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]I would say in this instance I am playing dumb since I completely used your own words and just substituted stats and names. You are arguing against yourself and calling yourself stupid in the process. Good job.[/QUOTE]

Nope.

You just can't understand a simple argument and are confusing things as usual.

I have compared Bosh in 12 and 13 in the playoffs to Odom in 09 and 10.

Do you dispute that? Please answer.

What Gasol previously did is brought up because many Kobe fans act like he was nothing without Kobe. That is not similar at all to the Bosh stuff.

I really just think you don't have the intellect to follow simple conversations.

Kobe stan: "Gasol sucked before Kobe...0-12 in the playoffs...bla bla bla"

Rational person: "Gasol was actually really good before coming to the Lakers...he put up quality numbers and proved he was capable of being the clear cut best player on teams making the playoffs...and won 50 games"


That is not at all what is going on with Bosh. Nobody ever says that Bosh sucked before he joined the Heat. Bosh gets hammered for his play in the playoffs these last two years.

Again I ask. Are you really this stupid or are you just acting like a moron?

Gasol is a hall of famer. You're just going to have to come to terms with that.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Nope.

You just can't understand a simple argument and are confusing things as usual.

I have compared Bosh in 12 and 13 in the playoffs to Odom in 09 and 10.

Do you dispute that? Please answer.

What Gasol previously did is brought up because many Kobe fans act like he was nothing without Kobe. That is not similar at all to the Bosh stuff.

I really just think you don't have the intellect to follow simple conversations.

Kobe stan: "Gasol sucked before Kobe...0-12 in the playoffs...bla bla bla"

Rational person: "Gasol was actually really good before coming to the Lakers...he put up quality numbers and proved he was capable of being the clear cut best player on teams making the playoffs...and won 50 games"


That is not at all what is going on with Bosh. Nobody ever says that Bosh sucked before he joined the Heat. Bosh gets hammered for his play in the playoffs these last two years.

Again I ask. Are you really this stupid or are you just acting like a moron?[/QUOTE]

Isn't this thread about Gasol's HOF chances ignoring his international resume?

Why is it "shocking" to question that?

Bosh gets hammered for following coaches orders and being played suboptimally for his individual stats. The same excuse you volunteered already for Gasol in recent years. Your cognitive dissonance is amazing.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Isn't this thread about Gasol's HOF chances ignoring his international resume?

Why is it "shocking" to question that?

Bosh gets hammered for following coaches orders and being played suboptimally for his individual stats. The same excuse you volunteered already for Gasol in recent years. Your cognitive dissonance is amazing.[/QUOTE]

It's shocking that Kobe fans refuse to acknowledge how good Gasol was before and during his time on the Lakers up until the 11 playoffs. He was great.

12 and 13 Gasol and 12 and 13 Bosh are in similar situations in that they are being forced out of their comfort zone.

So I don't follow. We all know Bosh is better than what he's been able to do these last 2 years. The problem is that he can't play the role the Heat need him to all that well. that is why his minutes have been drastically reduced...and his value as a player has dropped from what it once was.

very similar to Gasol...

So again I don't follow. We aren't comparing 12/13 Gasol to 12/13 Bosh. Gasol didn't win in 12 and 13.

He won in 09 and 10...when he was great.

You really need to take a logic and reasoning class or something. This is getting out of hand.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]It's shocking that Kobe fans refuse to acknowledge how good Gasol was before and during his time on the Lakers up until the 11 playoffs. He was great.

12 and 13 Gasol and 12 and 13 Bosh are in similar situations in that they are being forced out of their comfort zone.

So I don't follow. We all know Bosh is better than what he's been able to do these last 2 years. The problem is that he can't play the role the Heat need him to all that well. that is why his minutes have been drastically reduced...and his value as a player has dropped from what it once was.

very similar to Gasol...

So again I don't follow. We aren't comparing 12/13 Gasol to 12/13 Bosh. Gasol didn't win in 12 and 13.

He won in 09 and 10...when he was great.

You really need to take a logic and reasoning class or something. This is getting out of hand.[/QUOTE]

Link?

Who said he wasn't any good? I see Laker fans volunteering his pre Lakers awards and accolades. At worst someone called him a "soft playoff choker" prior to joining the Lakers which is undoubtedly true. Then "good" in 2009 and 2010. And "fell off" since then. Which part of that is shocking?

You stay throwing out logic class insults while making strawman arguments. :facepalm

So besides Dwight, who on the 09 magic is a hof? What about melo and the 09 nuggets? What about Lebron and the 09 cavs?

Sure Kobe and the lakers won, but they were easily the best all around talented and coached team.

Same goes for 2010 outside of the celtics. Suns two hall of farmers? Nope. Magic? Perhaps with Vince. Still, Pau was playing top grade basketball at his peak. Vince was right at the end of whatever prime was left.

Beating the celtics was epic though.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Link?

Who said he wasn't any good? I see Laker fans volunteering his pre Lakers awards and accolades. At worst someone called him a "soft playoff choker" prior to joining the Lakers which is undoubtedly true. Then "good" in 2009 and 2010. And "fell off" since then. Which part of that is shocking?

You stay throwing out logic class insults while making strawman arguments. :facepalm[/QUOTE]

Strawman? Check this very thread.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Strawman? Check this very thread.[/QUOTE]

Show me the quotes. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]Show me the quotes. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

What quotes? The point of this thread is to diminish Gasol...

Why do we have to play dumb all the time? This thread's sole purpose is to diminish Gasol and prop up Kobe...get real.

Kobe stans are so two faced. :facepalm

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]What quotes? The point of this thread is to diminish Gasol...

Why do we have to play dumb all the time? This thread's sole purpose is to diminish Gasol and prop up Kobe...get real.[/QUOTE]

"Shocking" quotes that show "Kobe fans" "refusing to acknowledge how good Gasol was".

Gasol is 0-16 without Kobe. He was a playoff choker. He has put up poor numbers recently. These statements shouldn't be shocking. It's simply the truth.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]"Shocking" quotes that show "Kobe fans" "refusing to acknowledge how good Gasol was".

Gasol is 0-16 without Kobe. He was a playoff choker. He has put up poor numbers recently. These statements shouldn't be shocking. It's simply the truth.[/QUOTE]

I'm talking about the stance that Gasol was nothing without Kobe. A common stance.

I'm talking about people making threads about Kobe winning without a hall of fame teammate in 09 and 10. Which simply ISN'T the truth.

I'm talking about people like you that go off on tangents about Bosh on the Heat while Bosh has done nothing remotely approaching what Gasol did in 09 and 10...etc.

You want the facts?

Simple. Pau Gasol is a sure fire Hall of Famer on his NBA career alone.

End thread

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm talking about the stance that Gasol was nothing without Kobe. A common stance.

I'm talking about people making threads about Kobe winning without a hall of fame teammate in 09 and 10. Which simply ISN'T the truth.

I'm talking about people like you that go off on tangents about Bosh on the Heat while Bosh has done nothing remotely approaching what Gasol did in 09 and 10...etc.

You want the facts?

Simple. Pau Gasol is a sure fire Hall of Famer on his NBA career alone.

End thread[/QUOTE]

Nobody said he was nothing without Kobe. That's why its called a strawman argument. You claim Kobe fans said something extreme that they never said and attempt to argue against the extreme stance that you just created out of thin air.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
And on NBA alone...it's very close.
[/QUOTE]

Which is it? "Sure fire"? or "very close"? You can't even maintain consistency on the same topic within the same thread and you wonder why nobody takes you seriously?

Don't bother arguing with "Yao Ming's Foot".
He's another Kobe nutrider troll.
Straight to the ignore bin.

I feel bad for Gasol. Even though he can play extremely soft, I feel like he's a very likable player and guy in general. Dude has great basketball fundamentals, isn't a diva f@ggot like a certain other elite big man who wore purple and gold last year, and seems like a very down to earth guy.

Not only that, but his playoff performances during '09, '10, and even '08 sans that Boston series are largely overlooked. Guy was a phenomenal second option and was huge for the Lakers year after year.

Even management treats him like shit, constantly putting him on the trading block despite all he has given to the franchise. I realize that the NBA is a business, but the amount of times the dude has been rumored to be in a trade is absurd.

Yet he doesn't make a big scene about it like a loser such as Dwight would, he just continues to play basketball. Gotta respect the man for being a professional at the very least.

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]"Shocking" quotes that show "Kobe fans" "refusing to acknowledge how good Gasol was".

Gasol is 0-16 without Kobe. He was a playoff choker. He has put up poor numbers recently. These statements shouldn't be shocking. It's simply the truth.[/QUOTE]

Just like Kobe missed the playoffs or was one and done without a top front court and a playoff choker as well, as he let a 3-1 strong hold slip away.

[QUOTE=qrich]Just like Kobe missed the playoffs or was one and done without a top front court and a playoff choker as well, as he let a 3-1 strong hold slip away.[/QUOTE]

Your team has never played a meaningful game in their entire franchise's existence, what would you know about the playoffs? :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Doranku]Your team has never played a meaningful game in their entire franchise's existence, what would you know about the playoffs? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Great response to bring in something irrelevant to the post that was made :bowdown:

Shall we talk about ancestors now? :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=qrich]Great response to bring in something irrelevant to the post that was made :bowdown:

Shall we talk about ancestors now? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

In what world is a 7 seed losing to a 2 seed "choking"? Yeah, they were up 3-1.. because Kobe hit a game tying shot and a game winning shot in Game 4 to put the series there.

Then he proceeded to shoot 50+% in the remaining 3 games including a 50 point outburst in a game that they were one rebound away from winning.

That's not choking, sorry.

[QUOTE=Doranku]In what world is a 7 seed losing to a 2 seed "choking"? Yeah, they were up 3-1.. because Kobe hit a game tying shot and a game winning shot in Game 4 to put the series there.

Then he proceeded to shoot 50+% in the remaining 3 games including a 50 point outburst in a game that they were one rebound away from winning.

That's not choking, sorry.[/QUOTE]

Three opportunities to close out a series.

Three strike-outs including a 17 point loss and a 21 point loss.

But hey, I guess only higher seeds can choke, not lower ones, so even if an 8th seed is up by 19 with 3 minutes left, it wouldn't be considered a choke :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=qrich]Three opportunities to close out a series.

Three strike-outs including a 17 point loss and a 21 point loss.

But hey, I guess only higher seeds can choke, not lower ones, so even if an 8th seed is up by 19 with 3 minutes left, it wouldn't be considered a choke :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

Being up 19 with 3 minutes left and losing two games on the road and one at home to a superior team are two different things.

Do you realize how bad that Lakers team was, and what a miracle it was for them to even win 3 games in the first place?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Steven Nash will for sure make the Hall. His rating is less than Gasol's.

Look at some of the other players on that list that made the Hall;

Dumars with a .4673

The fact that Dumars is in the Hall destroys you. It's over.

Gasol has better numbers...same number of titles...Dumars only played 14 seasons total

Dumars is in. That means Gasol is a lock on NBA play alone. End of story. There is no way you could have Dumars in the Hall of Fame and Gasol not in...would be idiotic.

Sorry.[/QUOTE]

The average player who makes the hall is .83

Nash has 2 mvps and is top 5 all time in assists. Made multiple 1st teams

Hes also statistically the greatest shooter ever.

Dumars is a defensive legend and finals mvp


Pau gasol is not top 50 at any aspect of basketball. Nore does he have any awards or 1st teams. He only has 1 second team


Theres ways to make the hall without a great rating. But pau doesnt have any of them


Keep trying ;)

love your threads, topics are always so diverse

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]The average player who makes the hall is .83

Nash has 2 mvps and is top 5 all time in assists. Made multiple 1st teams

Hes also statistically the greatest shooter ever.

Dumars is a defensive legend and finals mvp


Pau gasol is not top 50 at any aspect of basketball. Nore does he have any awards or 1st teams. He only has 1 second team


Theres ways to make the hall without a great rating. But pau doesnt have any of them


Keep trying ;)[/QUOTE]


It doesn't matter what the average is if you have guys well below him on that formula.

Dumars has a finals mvp, but Gasol has better career numbers.

You really think the people voting will just ignore everything and only focus on the limited stuff you are looking at?

Nah...Gasol would make it on his NBA career alone.

I'd love to hear the argument for Dumars in and Gasol out. Solely because a finals MVP? Not good enough for people that actually know basketball.