Top 3 Worst MVP Selections

[QUOTE=Heavincent]Like I said...clown. Do you even watch the games, or do you just read box scores? You'd fit in perfectly with those idiot ESPN basketball writers like Hoolinger and Abbott who just pull meaningless advanced metrics out of their asses.

Treating basketball like it's a ****ing math equation. What a joke :facepalm[/QUOTE]

My bad. I should listen to the opinions of die hard fans of a player instead of watching for myself and looking at objective measures.

You are the same fan base that still insists Kobe is the best game winning shot maker!

I watch the games and see it differently than you....so how do we settle disputes? I'd say an objective measure that is the same for all players is a good place to start.

Like the following.

Dirk is factually a better performer in elimination games in the playoffs. That might not mean anything, but it's a fact. You can't dispute that.

And you appeal to math all the time. Every time you add up Kobe's points...you are doing math. That's all that matters though...we are stuck in the past in which ppg is all that matters.

But then we can't even bring up ppg for Kobe and Dirk in the playoffs because Dirk is higher. So we must throw out the most basic stat of them all.

Do you ever get tired of having to dodge simple facts all the time? It must get annoying...

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Kobe had more win shares than Shaq in the 2001 playoffs. He was more valuable. Those are facts! Derp.[/QUOTE]

Advanced stats man!

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Facts are facts.

Kobe's teams usually get worse on defense with him on the floor. Bitch gambles and misses assignments consistently.

Last time that ***** made a positive impact on defense...he was rocking the fro.[/QUOTE]

Kobe's last few All Defense selections were a joke. And, Kobe does cost his team with impromptu gambles, as well as just physically incapable of staying in front of the more athletic, quicker guards in the league the last 2-3 years.

However, Kobe still had more value on defense than Dirk, both in recent memory and, more importantly, over the span of both their careers. At one point Kobe was a premier defender in the league. That waned as he focused on being more of an offensive force, but the fact remains that he at one point in time was a top 2-3 defender at his position.

Dirk, at no point, ever was, not even close. Not even top 15 at his position.

That's both factual and empirical.

And apparently DMAVS didn't catch the 08 season when Kobe was one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. Also doesn't remember him locking up Westbrook in 2010 playoffs.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]My bad. I should listen to the opinions of die hard fans of a player instead of watching for myself and looking at objective measures.

You are the same fan base that still insists Kobe is the best game winning shot maker!

I watch the games and see it differently than you....so how do we settle disputes? I'd say an objective measure that is the same for all players is a good place to start.

Like the following.

Dirk is factually a better performer in elimination games in the playoffs. That might not mean anything, but it's a fact. You can't dispute that.

And you appeal to math all the time. Every time you add up Kobe's points...you are doing math. That's all that matters though...we are stuck in the past in which ppg is all that matters.

But then we can't even bring up ppg for Kobe and Dirk in the playoffs because Dirk is higher. So we must throw out the most basic stat of them all.

Do you ever get tired of having to dodge simple facts all the time? It must get annoying...[/QUOTE]

Dirk is, statistically and therefore otherwise, a better performer in elimination games than Kobe. This is true.

How many elimination games have both been in, btw?

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]Iverson, Nash, and Rose, since 1995 at least.[/QUOTE]
+1

[QUOTE=BlackVVaves]Dirk is, statistically and therefore otherwise, a better performer in elimination games than Kobe. This is true.

How many elimination games have both been in, btw?[/QUOTE]

I think around 20 each. Similar records as well I think...

:roll: :roll: Even without the All Defensive Teams Facts, Kobe is already in stone known for his Perimeter defense and will always be known for it. Dirk ain't no where near Kobe's level. Dudes a 0 impact defensively.

Dmavs wanna talk about opinions but prop LeBron's regular season MVPs up that's voted on by sports writer's, meanwhile All-Defensive Teams are voted by NBA coaches who watch tape, coach teams and know the game....U think I'm gonna listen to one ISH poster troll over the coaches in the NBA? Hellllllll No.:roll:

[QUOTE=Heavincent]And apparently DMAVS didn't catch the 08 season when Kobe was one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. Also doesn't remember him locking up Westbrook in 2010 playoffs.[/QUOTE]

I thought we were ignoring stuff that doesn't suit our agenda? Right?

So I guess Dirk didn't do anything to stop Aldridge from killing Chandler and the Mavs in the Blazers series?

You see my point? You claim he has 0 impact. And you want me to accept the Westbrook stuff, but you won't accept anything I offer.

So I'm left with solely looking at things that objectively exist. Like the on/off of Kobe on defense. And RAPM...defensive errors...etc. I'll post it all...and you'll say id doesn't matter.

And on top of it you want me to talk about Kobe's positive qualities on defense? Come on now...

[QUOTE=branslowski]:roll: :roll: Even without the All Defensive Teams Facts, Kobe is already in stone known for his Perimeter defense and will always be known for it. Dirk ain't no where near Kobe's level. Dudes a 0 impact defensively.

Dmavs wanna talk about opinions but prop LeBron's regular season MVPs up that's voted on by sports writer's, meanwhile All-Defensive Teams are voted by NBA coaches who watch tape, coach teams and know the game....U think I'm gonna listen to one ISH poster troll over the coaches in the NBA? Hellllllll No.:roll:[/QUOTE]

I'm just telling you certain facts. What you do with them is up to you.

What is a person supposed to do with the following...just ignore it?

[url]http://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/[/url]

You think coaches have time to watch and track every possession mid season? They don't. Why do all these measures always seem to properly rate just about everyone except Kobe?

You'll notice that when I make a claim...I back it up with at least something. You'll notice when you make a claim...it involves throwing in ad hominem attacks to distract and merely subjective opinions with usually very little in the way of backing things up.

Or this:
[url]http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time[/url]

Or this:
[url]http://chasing23.com/the-myth-of-playoff-kobe/[/url]

I'm supposed to just pretend this shit aint reality?

And this:
[url]http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/dirk-vs-kobe-in-elimination-games.202206832/[/url]

And this:
[url]http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?832847-Clutchness-in-elimination-games-stats-of-Jordan-Kobe[/url]

And this:
[url]http://www.mysportslegion.com/forums/showthread.php?24229-Game-7-stats-MJ-LBJ-Kobe-Wade-Duncan-Shaq-amp-Dirk[/url]

[QUOTE=toooo]Lebron isn't getting enough attention for you? :roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]
This is a funny zinger:oldlol:

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Do you even english?


:roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]
This is a lame come back:no:

Point, if you don't have a funny come backer, let it go:facepalm

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I'm just telling you certain facts. What you do with them is up to you.

What is a person supposed to do with the following...just ignore it?

[url]http://asubstituteforwar.wordpress.com/2011/05/09/kobe-bryant-the-most-overrated-defender-imaginable/[/url]

You think coaches have time to watch and track every possession mid season? They don't. Why do all these measures always seem to properly rate just about everyone except Kobe?

You'll notice that when I make a claim...I back it up with at least something. You'll notice when you make a claim...it involves throwing in ad hominem attacks to distract and merely subjective opinions with usually very little in the way of backing things up.

Or this:
[url]http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time[/url]

Or this:
[url]http://chasing23.com/the-myth-of-playoff-kobe/[/url]

I'm supposed to just pretend this shit aint reality?

And this:
[url]http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/dirk-vs-kobe-in-elimination-games.202206832/[/url]

And this:
[url]http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?832847-Clutchness-in-elimination-games-stats-of-Jordan-Kobe[/url]

And this:
[url]http://www.mysportslegion.com/forums/showthread.php?24229-Game-7-stats-MJ-LBJ-Kobe-Wade-Duncan-Shaq-amp-Dirk[/url][/QUOTE]

I didn't bother browsing through this thread to avoid the typical ****ery ISH posters spew amidst their un-calculated agenda. So, what exactly is your point, that Dirk was as valuable or not valuable as Kobe in terms to defense? Or...?

I agree bringing up specifics of Kobe being stellar on defense (like against Westbrook in the 2010 playoffs) while ignoring specifics of Dirk's efforts in particular situations is the guise of an ignoramus. However, since you deal in facts, it is a fact that Kobe overall in his career, in total (particularly the first half of his career) was heads and shoulders more profound in terms of defensive impact than Dirk ever was.

Like...ever.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Besides the fact the games greatest player ever was a 6'5 guard. Also odd considering there has been a number of people smaller than Dirk who were better than him. And for an exclusive playoff series in his MVP year, PG Baron Davis out performed him on both ends of the floor.

CP3, Wade, LeBron, Kobe all clear superior players than their contemporary big men counterparts. Hell peak for peak, and when they faced each other in the playoffs, even Nash was possibly better than Dirk. Awkward to say the least.[/QUOTE]
Top 10 players all time there is 1 person with a listed height below 6'8... (MJ)

[QUOTE=BlackVVaves]I didn't bother browsing through this thread to avoid the typical ****ery ISH posters spew amidst their un-calculated agenda. So, what exactly is your point, that Dirk was as valuable or not valuable as Kobe in terms to defense? Or...?

I agree bringing up specifics of Kobe being stellar on defense (like against Westbrook in the 2010 playoffs) while ignoring specifics of Dirk's efforts in particular situations is the guise of an ignoramus. However, since you deal in facts, it is a fact that Kobe overall in his career, in total (particularly the first half of his career) was heads and shoulders more profound in terms of defensive impact than Dirk ever was.

Like...ever.[/QUOTE]

My point was simple. Dirk isn't a 0 impact defender. He's been better than people say he is.

I'd say I think Kobe's impact defensively is absurdly over-stated...even in the early years, but it really doesn't matter to me.

If someone is going to make a claim...like Dirk being a 0 impact defender...or that Kobe is a great defender...you need more than a biased opinion.

When I say Kobe is over-rated defensively...I provide objective information for that.

I rarely see people provide objective information about Dirk on these claims. Although it's out there. Dirk is NOT a great defender. He's been a slightly above average individual defender and solid, but limited team defender.

I've never said otherwise. I just find it funny that he has supposed no impact...but when you look at all the objective data from Kobe all the way back in 02 to present. He's literally a no impact defender. Does that mean he is actually? I don't know...but it's enough to say that his supposed great defensive impact is grossly over-stated as all the truly elite defenders see real impact in the measurable things.

[QUOTE=TheMan]This is a lame come back:no:

Point, if you don't have a funny come backer, let it go:facepalm[/QUOTE]
It was an inside joke that I ended up being wrong on. The guy I said it to was the only person who would even understand it.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]Bingo.

Just from his generation I've seen better runs from: Wade, Kobe, LeBron, Duncan and probably soon Durant or Chris Paul.

Dirks 2011 was nice, it isn't legend status.

Mavs won as a team and got huge contributions from many guys who wouldn't ordinarily provide them on that level.[/QUOTE]
Let's also keep in mind that LeBron played terrible that Finals, if he played decent (not even great, just decent), Heat win.

Nash
Nash
Nash

Puts up Deron Williams numbers (along with no defense) and the guy wins TWO MVP awards...ridiculous.

Certaintly in recent memory, Steve Nash's MVP selections are ridiculous. Especially the 2nd one.

I'd probably say Nash in 06 was the worst if I had to choose. Didn't lead his team to an amazing record, only 3rd best in his conference and 4th overall, which is still pretty high but still 9 games behind first. Dirk led his team to a better record by 6 games, all while being just as good or better statistically and not having really that great of a supporting cast either. And Lebron and Kobe both had historically great individual seasons while overachieving with pretty bad supporting casts. There wasn't a great combination of individual dominance + team success that year, and in that case, I'd take either a player that led his team to great team success i.e. 60 or more wins, or the player that individually was historically amazing and still led his team to wins. I'm not sure there's another MVP in history where I'd say I would've chose 3 other players ahead of him.

CLEARLY Russell beating Chamberlain in '62. Wilt's '62 season was probably the greatest single season, by any player in a major professional team sport, in sports history.

Furthermore, Wilt not only won ROY in '60, he easily outvoted Russell for MVP. Take a look at Russell and Wilt's stats for that season, and their team records. Then, compare them again in '62. Aside from Chamberlain being considerably more dominant, everything else was the same. So how did Russell win in '62?

BTW, Chamberlain was voted first-team All-NBA ahead of Russell in that '62 season.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]CLEARLY Russell beating Chamberlain in '62. Wilt's '62 season was probably the greatest single season, by any player in a major professional team sport, in sports history.

Furthermore, Wilt not only won ROY in '60, he easily outvoted Russell for MVP. Take a look at Russell and Wilt's stats for that season, and their team records. Then, compare them again in '62. Aside from Chamberlain being considerably more dominant, everything else was the same. So how did Russell win in '62?

BTW, Chamberlain was voted first-team All-NBA ahead of Russell in that '62 season.[/QUOTE]
Showed how overrated Wilt was. 50 ppg for the season and Russell doesn't average half that and easily gets MVP.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You claim he has 0 impact. And you want me to accept the Westbrook stuff, but you won't accept anything I offer.
[/QUOTE]

When did I claim Dirk has 0 impact?

Are you retarded?

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Showed how overrated Wilt was. 50 ppg for the season and Russell doesn't average half that and easily gets MVP.[/QUOTE]

And yet a Wilt, just two seasons before that, averaged 38 ppg and blew away Russell for the MVP. Yep...makes perfect sense.