prime dirk vs current durant?

[QUOTE=Pointguard]You are the one who jumped at me when I said he was never the premier/top tier scorer in the league. Its not the reverse.


Scoring is scoring - the second you start qualifying it, its a distortion. I never said anything accenting RS over PS.


I have always said Kidd had the best defensive stand ever (and I said this over and over again) I once said show me any player that had a tougher and as successful perimeter assignment in the history of the playoffs. And I was telling you that Tyson Chandler was a stellar defensive player during that year and you tried to make a joke of it. I've recently said he's more important to my team winning right now than Mello is. A player who is arguably, the premier scorer in the league.

I never said anything in regards to the Spurs, sorry wrong guy.[/QUOTE]


So you can't have it both ways. You can't say the Mavs forced other stars to play worse...then turn around and say it was a silent year for superstars. You see?

It was a combination of solid defense and Dirk going off in close games to force others to keep up...and nobody could. Nobody of this era could actually...nobody has done what Dirk did in the playoffs in crunch time before since we started tracking this shit.

Dirk was a top tier scorer in the league...you just value RS over playoffs. I don't. I don't qualify it at all...playoffs are what matters to me. From 08 through 12...that is 5 years...Dirk averaged something like 27 ppg on 61% TS. If that isn't first tier...I don't know what is...

So I want to hear how 27 ppg on 61% TS or whatever it is over a 5 year period in the playoffs while leading a team to the title on 28 ppg 61% TS isn't top tier. Tier implies more than one...so I want to know the players that are better scorers than Dirk when it matters. You could argue Kobe, Durant, and Lebron...and all of it is debatable...

It seems that people are 50/50 right now?

If Durant had a ring 80/20 probably?

Durant's position as number 2 in the league is beginning to be threatened. By a versatile player who is whose defense puts him in contention for the two spot. If George had three years at his current level I it would be very tight at the second spot, but I would be leaning toward George if he had the same amount of battle scars.

In a way the argument would be very similar to the Garnett/Dirk debate (in their primes the ppg difference is about the same as well) but KG was better than Dirk in everything outside of scoring where as George would only be better than Durant in defense. And Durant would be the premier scorer in the league.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]So you can't have it both ways. You can't say the Mavs forced other stars to play worse...then turn around and say it was a silent year for superstars. You see? [/quote]
It was definitely a case of both. Duncan didn't play the Mavs. Lebron's mind state wasn't because of Marion.
[quote]
It was a combination of solid defense and Dirk going off in close games to force others to keep up...and nobody could. Nobody of this era could actually...nobody has done what Dirk did in the playoffs in crunch time before since we started tracking this shit. [/quote]
What Wade did was more impressive. It was the finals, they were down two zip. He goes on to average like 40ppg shot over 550% in three of the wins in a duel with prime Dirk. That was crunch time of all crunch times. Down 0-2 in the finals is crunch time.
[quote]
Dirk was a top tier scorer in the league...you just value RS over playoffs. I don't. I don't qualify it at all...playoffs are what matters to me. From 08 through 12...that is 5 years...Dirk averaged something like 27 ppg on 61% TS. If that isn't first tier...I don't know what is... [/quote]
Dirk has done very well but if you play 100 games in a year, you are responsible for 100 games. You get paid millions of dollars from fans, you are responsible to earn your check like the other players/scorers. You can't cherry pick, or decide the standard - a scorer scores over the course of the year. There is no question in my mind that if Lebron, Wade and Kobe cut back on defense and played only to score, that all three are doing better than 27 ppg being that they have all done it multiple times with a load of other work.

Dirk scores more and rebounds more in the playoffs because he's less spent than other players. His responsibilities are minimal in comparison.
[quote]
So I want to hear how 27 ppg on 61% TS or whatever it is over a 5 year period in the playoffs while leading a team to the title on 28 ppg 61% TS isn't top tier. Tier implies more than one...so I want to know the players that are better scorers than Dirk when it matters. You could argue Kobe, Durant, and Lebron...and all of it is debatable...[/QUOTE]
When it matters??? Jason Terry should rank very high. Robert Horry would also be top rank. The second you start qualifying things it can land everywhere.

Kareem has the record for most points scored and is known as a the best scorer. Gretsky regular season mark is known to hockey fans. Mayweather is closing in on 50 and 0. Nobody knows their championship marks. You can't change the rules because Dirk laid back game hurts him the RS. Sorry scoring encompasses it all. Dirk was never like what Durant has been the last three years. All of the guys mentioned in this paragraph have great endurance. Its part of the game. If you don't have it, you get excluded when talking about the elite in every sport - there are no exceptions. Dirk doesn't play hard on defense either... .

[QUOTE=Pointguard]It was definitely a case of both. Duncan didn't play the Mavs. Lebron's mind state wasn't because of Marion.

What Wade did was more impressive. It was the finals, they were down two zip. He goes on to average like 40ppg shot over 550% in three of the wins in a duel with prime Dirk. That was crunch time of all crunch times. Down 0-2 in the finals is crunch time.

Dirk has done very well but if you play 100 games in a year, you are responsible for 100 games. You get paid millions of dollars from fans, you are responsible to earn your check like the other players/scorers. You can't cherry pick, or decide the standard - a scorer scores over the course of the year. There is no question in my mind that if Lebron, Wade and Kobe cut back on defense and played only to score, that all three are doing better than 27 ppg being that they have all done it multiple times with a load of other work.

Dirk scores more and rebounds more in the playoffs because he's less spent than other players. His responsibilities are minimal in comparison.

When it matters??? Jason Terry should rank very high. Robert Horry would also be top rank. The second you start qualifying things it can land everywhere.

Kareem has the record for most points scored and is known as a the best scorer. Gretsky regular season mark is known to hockey fans. Mayweather is closing in on 50 and 0. Nobody knows their championship marks. You can't change the rules because Dirk laid back game hurts him the RS. Sorry scoring encompasses it all. Dirk was never like what Durant has been the last three years. All of the guys mentioned in this paragraph have great endurance. Its part of the game. If you don't have it, you get excluded when talking about the elite in every sport - there are no exceptions. Dirk doesn't play hard on defense either... .[/QUOTE]


Dude. Dirk does all those things. He rebounds and defends and makes plays for others. He just isn't great at some of those things. If you think Dirk doesn't try hard on defense or rebounding...you are nuts.

Not to mention that Durant's defense to date has been nothing. It's utterly average. Kobe, rests on defense more than just about any player in the league.

And there it is. You value the regular season and playoffs the same. The reason Dirk's numbers are less in the regular season is because he plays less minutes. that is all. his per 36 numbers are identical outside of Dirk getting 1 more rebound in the playoffs for his career per 36 in the playoffs.

That is elite scoring. He's 8th all time in playoff ppg on the 2nd highest overall efficiency of anyone scoring over 25 ppg for their playoff career. LOL...how is that not elite? There is MJ...and then a whole host of guys on that next tier. dirk is one of them.

So this is your argument;

Yea, Dirk is certainly an elite scorer when it matters in the playoffs, but he doesn't stat pad in the regular season against bad teams...so he's not an elite scorer.

I hope you realize that is how silly your argument is.

And Terry is elite for his career? How? Now scoring 16.5 ppg make you an elite scorer? :facepalm


And back to the whole Durant vs Dirk thing...Dirk's impact goes way beyond numbers if you knew anything about the game. But the way you scoff at 26/10/3 58.4% TS career playoff averages with 2 trips to the finals, 3 trips to the WCF, a title, and a finals MVP is just hilarious. And he did that all never having the kind of properly built quality teams Durant has had since 2011. Like seriously...WB is clearly better than any player Dirk ever played with...

So if Durant wants to get on the Dirk tier (top 20 all time for me)...he has to win a title first. I'm sure he will, but he has to do it before we can talk.

It's like Kevin Love. Something is missing. Prime Dirk is winning like 55 games on the current Wolves...that's how good he actually was and you sell him short hugely by claiming he doesn't try hard in the regular season. I guess those utterly average rosters for top teams all those years were winning close to 60 because Dirk didn't try.

Dirk is a living legend. Durant isn't.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]There was maybe an 8 year stretch where not one person on the planet said that and an 11 year stretch nobody should have.


That said....

Probably Dirk. There are teams id take Durant on but generally if I didnt know who I could pair him with id take Dirk in 01-11 form.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, in most threads all the kids here should just wait til KBlaze responds and then just end the thread. Anyone over 35 would be allowed in the thread but everyone under age should be locked out. That would apply to all real basketball threads not to " who has the most swag" and threads like that.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
And there it is. You value the regular season and playoffs the same.
[/quote]
Scorers are measured on how they score in the game. The game is the the standard measure. Most players play between 70 - 90 games. The bulk of the games are RS. James Worthy was another player that saved himself for the post season where he played on the level of the super scorers. Chauncey Billups played allstar level in the playoffs. Had they played 90 stellar games history would be kind to those guys. In every sport the measure is for the regular season - basketball included. Its not just me.

[quote]
The reason Dirk's numbers are less in the regular season is because he plays less minutes. that is all. his per 36 numbers are identical outside of Dirk getting 1 more rebound in the playoffs for his career per 36 in the playoffs.[/quote]
Which I find really impressive. But Dirk never having to be a top three scorer in the league, Dirk never averaging 10 plus rebounds per game, Dirk rarely defending the superstars at his position even in regular season games, now should be given leniency when talking about overall scoring. How many breaks can somebody be given? The top scorers Kobe, Wade, Lebron and Iverson were way more relentless in their scoring as well. Dirk was never as creative as any of them either.

[quote]
That is elite scoring. He's 8th all time in playoff ppg on the 2nd highest overall efficiency of anyone scoring over 25 ppg for their playoff career. LOL...how is that not elite? There is MJ...and then a whole host of guys on that next tier. dirk is one of them.

So this is your argument;

Yea, Dirk is certainly an elite scorer when it matters in the playoffs, but he doesn't stat pad in the regular season against bad teams...so he's not an elite scorer.

I hope you realize that is how silly your argument is. [/quote]
Ohhh right. Scorers are not suppose to be the best scorers over the course of a season. Just post season. Scorer's score. Its silly to suggest otherwise. In every sport, basketball included there are no exceptions.

[quote]
And Terry is elite for his career? How? Now scoring 16.5 ppg make you an elite scorer? :facepalm [/quote]
I said Terry because you [B]can qualify[/B] his scoring like you are doing with Dirk. Dirk is a great scorer in the playoffs and falls off some in the finals. So Dirk has his niche and Terry has his. Terry in the last three games of each finals is a better scorer than his teammate Dirk. And Horry is also a great niche scorer.

[quote]
And back to the whole Durant vs Dirk thing...Dirk's impact goes way beyond numbers if you knew anything about the game. [/quote]

I coach. Dirk does have impact beyond his scoring. But Durant scores from the same places on the floor as Dirk does and passes better. He is also more creative and a more persistent scorer as well. Take persistent out of scorers like Wade, Iverson and Kobe and they aren't going to be elite anymore, so its a quality that makes a difference (see Blake Griffin)
[quote]
But the way you scoff at 26/10/3 58.4% TS career playoff averages with 2 trips to the finals, 3 trips to the WCF, a title, and a finals MVP is just hilarious. And he did that all never having the kind of properly built quality teams Durant has had since 2011. Like seriously...WB is clearly better than any player Dirk ever played with... [/quote]
Durant doesn't have have the wisdom on the court like Dirk, KD is about 3 years away from his prime so I give Dirk that. I think those numbers will definitely be surpassed by Durant who is already near a comparable stature. Will he do it before his prime or during it is the only question.
[quote]
So if Durant wants to get on the Dirk tier (top 20 all time for me)...he has to win a title first. I'm sure he will, but he has to do it before we can talk.

It's like Kevin Love. Something is missing. Prime Dirk is winning like 55 games on the current Wolves...that's how good he actually was and you sell him short hugely by claiming he doesn't try hard in the regular season. I guess those utterly average rosters for top teams all those years were winning close to 60 because Dirk didn't try.[/QUOTE]
Dirk never had to put up great PF numbers because his teams were able to take the weight. KG had three years of 1100 rebounds and 8 years of over 900 rebounds while being on the all defensive teams while leading or second on the team in every major statistical category. Dirk has no years of 800 or more rebounds and no all defensive teams. Dirk rarely even had to shoot as good as other PF's as well. Only the team can compensate for lack of blocked, shots, steals, assist. Dirk had a convenience that Karl Malone, Barkley and Garnett didn't have. If they cut back there was no way a team could compensate. Dirk played less, was less productive and won more.

Not sure its a good thing and is definitely an indication of the team doing more than other great PF's.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
And back to the whole Durant vs Dirk thing...Dirk's impact goes way beyond numbers if you knew anything about the game. But the way you scoff at 26/10/3 58.4% TS career playoff averages with 2 trips to the finals, 3 trips to the WCF, a title, and a finals MVP is just hilarious. [B]And he did that all never having the kind of properly built quality teams Durant has had since 2011. [/B] Like seriously...WB is clearly better than any player Dirk ever played with...
[/QUOTE]

I have to disagree with you there man. Once upon a time Dirk had Michael Finley, Steve Nash, a young Juwan Howard, and Shawn Bradley. OKC would love Shawn Bradley over Perkins anyday of the week. His defense and rebounding is just much better. His offense is too, though he is inconsistent, but it's better than nonexistent. They would also love a prime Michael Finley as a third option. The Mavs problem, imo, was that they didn't figure out how to make it all worked with their talent. And their bench sucked. While Don Nelson is a very good coach, they needed a different coaching staff to make all fit. They definitively had the pieces.

Regardless, I always found Dirk had more talent in his earlier Mavs team than the 2011 and onwards OKC team.

[QUOTE=Micku]I have to disagree with you there man. Once upon a time Dirk had Michael Finley, Steve Nash, a young Juwan Howard, and Shawn Bradley. OKC would love Shawn Bradley over Perkins anyday of the week. His defense and rebounding is just much better. His offense is too, though he is inconsistent, but it's better than nonexistence. They would also love a prime Michael Finley as a third option. The Mavs problem, imo, was that they didn't figure out how to make it all worked with their talent. And their bench sucked. While Don Nelson is a very good coach, they needed a different coaching staff to make all fit. They definitively had the pieces.

[B]Regardless, I always found Dirk had more talent in his earlier Mavs team than the 2011 and onwards OKC team[/B].[/QUOTE]

That still doesn't make Durant better than Prime Dirk tho

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Scorers are measured on how they score in the game. The game is the the standard measure. Most players play between 70 - 90 games. The bulk of the games are RS. James Worthy was another player that saved himself for the post season where he played on the level of the super scorers. Chauncey Billups played allstar level in the playoffs. Had they played 90 stellar games history would be kind to those guys. In every sport the measure is for the regular season - basketball included. Its not just me.


Which I find really impressive. But Dirk never having to be a top three scorer in the league, Dirk never averaging 10 plus rebounds per game, Dirk rarely defending the superstars at his position even in regular season games, now should be given leniency when talking about overall scoring. How many breaks can somebody be given? The top scorers Kobe, Wade, Lebron and Iverson were way more relentless in their scoring as well. Dirk was never as creative as any of them either.


Ohhh right. Scorers are not suppose to be the best scorers over the course of a season. Just post season. Scorer's score. Its silly to suggest otherwise. In every sport, basketball included there are no exceptions.


I said Terry because you [B]can qualify[/B] his scoring like you are doing with Dirk. Dirk is a great scorer in the playoffs and falls off some in the finals. So Dirk has his niche and Terry has his. Terry in the last three games of each finals is a better scorer than his teammate Dirk. And Horry is also a great niche scorer.



I coach. Dirk does have impact beyond his scoring. But Durant scores from the same places on the floor as Dirk does and passes better. He is also more creative and a more persistent scorer as well. Take persistent out of scorers like Wade, Iverson and Kobe and they aren't going to be elite anymore, so its a quality that makes a difference (see Blake Griffin)

Durant doesn't have have the wisdom on the court like Dirk, KD is about 3 years away from his prime so I give Dirk that. I think those numbers will definitely be surpassed by Durant who is already near a comparable stature. Will he do it before his prime or during it is the only question.

Dirk never had to put up great PF numbers because his teams were able to take the weight. KG had three years of 1100 rebounds and 8 years of over 900 rebounds while being on the all defensive teams while leading or second on the team in every major statistical category. Dirk has no years of 800 or more rebounds and no all defensive teams. Dirk rarely even had to shoot as good as other PF's as well. Only the team can compensate for lack of blocked, shots, steals, assist. Dirk had a convenience that Karl Malone, Barkley and Garnett didn't have. If they cut back there was no way a team could compensate. Dirk played less, was less productive and won more.

Not sure its a good thing and is definitely an indication of the team doing more than other great PF's.[/QUOTE]

You really over-rate the regular season and the strength of Dirk's teams.

Karl Malone never had the convenience Dirk did? Yea..because Dirk has had a pass first elite defensive high IQ pg managing games for him his entire career and getting him easy baskets constantly....:facepalm

Dirk had better teams than KG and Barkley...don't think he had better teams on the whole than Malone though. So what? That doesn't make Dirk worse...Shaq had far better teams than Dirk ever did...does that somehow make Shaq worse? What do KG, Barkley, and Malone have to do with this? Barkley was a joke on defense...never tried half as hard as Dirk did. Yet Barkley was as good or better than Dirk offensively and they are a toss up. KG was nowhere near the offensive force Barkley and Dirk were, but was an elite level defender. Malone is a mix of it all and again...it's a toss up between them.

But...the argument that those guys had it "harder"...is just silly. Especially because one could argue that Dirk on bad teams would play more minutes and take more shots...driving up his numbers. That wouldn't make Dirk better...if he played on those wolves teams like KG did...Dirk's career averages would all be higher...he'd probably be a little less efficient (maybe) and he'd have better totals. But who cares about that? You really care about Dirk playing 3 more mpg and averaging 25/9/3 in the regular season for his career instead of 23/8/3? Who cares? Especially when Dirk was leading teams to great regular season after great regular season.

These arguments that Dirk got to take it easy and still win are silly...you again sell Dirk short. Just look at 2010, for example, Mavs went 55-27...take a look at the roster...LOL...take a good look at it. I'm supposed to get a hard on for a guy like Kobe in 10 leading a far superior Lakers team to 57 wins...only 2 more...and turn around and say Kobe had it harder? It's a joke dude. Kobe missed 9 games and his team went 6-3 without him...Or Lebron the last few years. He's a do everything player...I'm supposed to go nuts about him winning games with a far superior roster than Dirk ever had? At some point this shit needs to come back to reality. Hell, in 07, Dirk won 67 games...more than Lebron has ever won in a season...with much less help than Lebron has had since joining the Heat. Who had it easier? Lebron also plays in a historically weak conference...while prime Dirk was doing this shit in one of the best conferences the NBA has seen. Who had it tougher? LOL

Who had it harder that season? Seriously...I'd love to know.

Dirk just didn't stat pad like so many guys do. Dirk could easily have stayed in an average 3 or so more minutes per game against shit teams his entire career and scored 2-3 more ppg. As someone that watched his entire career...it would have been easy...like...super easy.

That is why I care about the playoffs. I understand you take it all in more...and I take it all in as well, but I'm just not getting excited about some guys because they drop 35 on a bad team when Dirk drops 25 and takes the 4th qtr off.


You were the one that claimed Dirk isn't an elite scorer. And you are using meaningless regular season games...LOL

Don't you find it funny that you give Dirk no credit for winning 50 or more 11 straight seasons as the clear cut best player of the franchise during that time? Doing it with only 1 all nba player during that whole stretch...and a couple all-stars as well. No leader of a franchise has done more in the regular season over a decade plus with less than Dirk. All while putting up great overall efficiency and leading the Mavs as the best close game team from 04 through 11.

Then...in the playoffs...he's able to play big minutes and score at a rate on par with just about anyone in history other than MJ.

All you are doing is saying that ball dominant wings that shoot more than Dirk are better scorers. And I disagree. I'd take Dirk over Kobe, for example, as a scorer. I want the guy that impacts the game like Dirk without the ball as often...all while being more efficient by a large margin and scoring like 2.2 ppg less prime vs prime in the playoffs.

What Dirk could do in his prime as an offensive player was truly special. Hell, what he can do now is still special.

And if you want to look at the regular seasons so much...take a look at what Dirk does to his teams offense for his career.

When Dirk is on the floor...his teams get 9.3 points better per 100 possessions on offense

Let's compare that to some elite offensive players all time and some guys you have mentioned;

Kobe 7.7
KG 5.5
Lebron 10.1
Durant 5.1
Nash 8.7
Paul 9.1

This a good measure of some of that hidden offensive impact that Dirk has that Durant is somewhat missing so far in his career.

Now lets look at offensive ratings;

Dirk 117
Durant 114
Kobe 112
Nash 118
KG 110
Lebron 116

No matter how you slice it, Dirk is an elite offensive force/scorer in NBA history.

It's just even more impressive considering a career of 26/10/3 58.4% TS in the playoffs over such a long time frame. I'll while doing it that without the kind of help almost every other guy you are bringing up has had...especially at the 2nd option position.

[QUOTE=Micku]I have to disagree with you there man. Once upon a time Dirk had Michael Finley, Steve Nash, a young Juwan Howard, and Shawn Bradley. OKC would love Shawn Bradley over Perkins anyday of the week. His defense and rebounding is just much better. His offense is too, though he is inconsistent, but it's better than nonexistent. They would also love a prime Michael Finley as a third option. The Mavs problem, imo, was that they didn't figure out how to make it all worked with their talent. And their bench sucked. While Don Nelson is a very good coach, they needed a different coaching staff to make all fit. They definitively had the pieces.

Regardless, I always found Dirk had more talent in his earlier Mavs team than the 2011 and onwards OKC team.[/QUOTE]

The only year that would be true was in 03...and even then it was a somewhat poorly constructed team for winning in the playoffs with solely run and gun...etc.

And did you just list Bradley and Juwan Howard as positives? ROFL...Howard put up 13/8/1 on 36% shooting in the 01 playoffs...and was beyond bad against the Spurs. Just horrendous.

The 12 Thunder were better than any team Dirk has ever had...by a clear margin as well.

But I don't care to really debate that...my point in bringing that up was to show that at the very least Durant is getting Dirk level help or better...so if he wants to be on the Dirk level all time...he needs to win a title.

But let me put it this way for you. Give prime Dirk...Westbrook and the center equivalent of Ibaka (not sure who that is...maybe a healthy Tyson Chandler or Marc Gasol)...in the league today...and I'd bet a ton of money the Mavs win multiple titles from 11 through 15.

Yeah, Malone had some #1 ranked defenses at the time, DPOY player in Mark Eaton, best pure PG in John Stockton from 18 years (16 as a starter), former all-star wings like Jeff Malone and Jeff Hornacek, and Jerry Sloan as his coach for just as long too. His late-80's-90's Jazz, especially the ones from 96-99 (some could even say the late 80's too) were definitely deep teams.

Don't know how Malone didn't have the convenience Dirk did.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]The only year that would be true was in 03...and even then it was a somewhat poorly constructed team for winning in the playoffs with solely run and gun...etc.

And did you just list Bradley and Juwan Howard as positives? ROFL...

The 12 Thunder were better than any team Dirk has ever had...by a clear margin as well.

But I don't care to really debate that...my point in bringing that up was to show that at the very least Durant is getting Dirk level help or better...so if he wants to be on the Dirk level all time...he needs to win a title.

But let me put it this way for you. [B]Give prime Dirk...Westbrook and the center equivalent of Ibaka (not sure who that is...maybe a healthy Tyson Chandler or Marc Gasol[/B])...in the league today...and I'd bet a ton of money the Mavs win multiple titles from 11 through 15.[/QUOTE]

Prime Dirk + Westbrook + A defensive stopper like Chandler??? Game over :bowdown:

That floor spacing would be insane. I would predict about 2 titles in 4 years

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Yeah, Malone had some #1 ranked defenses at the time, DPOY player in Mark Easton, best pure PG in John Stockton from 18 years (16 as a starter), former all-star wings like Jeff Malone and Jeff Hornacek, and Jerry Sloan as his coach for just as long too. His late-80's-90's Jazz, especially the ones from 96-99 (some could even say the late 80's too) were definitely deep teams.

Don't know how Malone didn't have the convenience Dirk did.[/QUOTE]

Don't you get it...Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Devin Harris, Avery Johnson...LOL

Shit...I just heard that about how great Shawn Bradley and Juwan Howard were...

The arguments about how much each has won are kind of irrelevant because the leagues they played in were much different. The West now provides a much better opportunity for KD to win a ring than Dirk from 2002-2006 (and the Mavs were robbed in 06).

Dirk had the 3-peat Lakers with an uberdominant Shaq, Prime C-Webb Kings, Prime Duncan Spurs, & Prime Sheed Jailblazers to battle. The West is still really competitive but it is nowhere near as top heavy as it was from like 2000-2005. The competition got a little more reasonable as Dirk reached the end of his prime and he made it to 2 finals and won 1.

[QUOTE=Jailblazers7]The arguments about how much each has won are kind of irrelevant because the leagues they played in were much different. The West now provides a much better opportunity for KD to win a ring than Dirk from 2002-2006 (and the Mavs were robbed in 06).

Dirk had the 3-peat Lakers with an uberdominant Shaq, Prime C-Webb Kings, Prime Duncan Spurs, & Prime Sheed Jailblazers to battle. The West is still really competitive but it is nowhere near as top heavy as it was from like 2000-2005. The competition got a little more reasonable as Dirk reached the end of his prime and he made it to 2 finals and won 1.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, Dirk never had to face the Lakers in the playoffs until 11. Now, it impacted seedings and all that stuff and definitely made it tougher, but luckily we never faced the Shaq/Kobe Lakers.

But yea...there are no 02 Kings and dominant Spurs teams running around the West right now. The competition is definitely worse right now than it was from like 00 through 11.

[QUOTE=Black and White]That still doesn't make Durant better than Prime Dirk tho[/QUOTE]

It doesn't. But it also doesn't make Dirk better either.

[quote=DMAVS41]
The only year that would be true was in 03...and even then it was a somewhat poorly constructed team for winning in the playoffs with solely run and gun...etc.

And did you just list Bradley and Juwan Howard as positives? ROFL...[/quote]

Hey now, come on. Bradley was a much better player than Perkins and I'm sure OKC would love to have him. His defense and rebounding was better. His offense is meh, but do you not agree he was better than Perkins? And Juwan Howard was solid scoring piece. He wasn't a scrub. A bad fit? Sure, you can argue that.

And it goes back to what you say about a constructed team, but it was mainly coaching than it was the players. Dirk had a talented team around him in his early Mavs years.

[quote=DMAVS41]
The 12 Thunder were better than any team Dirk has ever had...by a clear margin as well.

But let me put it this way for you. Give prime Dirk...Westbrook and the center equivalent of Ibaka (not sure who that is...maybe a healthy Tyson Chandler or Marc Gasol)...in the league today...and I'd bet a ton of money the Mavs win multiple titles from 11 through 15.
[/quote]

The Thunder 12 was a better team than most that Dirk had. But I think the early Mavs team could compare with Nash, Finley and Dirk at the core. Finley could give you 20, 5, 5.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Don't you get it...Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Devin Harris, Avery Johnson...LOL

[B]Shit...I just heard that about how great Shawn Bradley and Juwan Howard were...[/B][/QUOTE]

Haha! Wow. You're acting like Juwan Howard was a scrub. He did give the team 18/7 and 15/8. He once had 22 and 8 before the Mavs. And they brought in Shawn Bradley to improve the defense and rebounding of the Mavs. And Shawn Bradley was supposed to provided defense, good rebounding and he was a solid rim protector. Much better than Perkins.

You can say that they didn't fit well or whatever. But you are just disregarding their play completely. Dirk did have talent. They weren't the best in the league obviously, but lets not act OKC would trade over Perkins to Shawn Bradley or have Michael Finley as their third option currently.

[QUOTE=Micku]Haha! Wow. You're acting like [B]Juwan Howard was a scrub[/B]. He did give the team 18/7 and 15/8. He once had 22 and 8 before the Mavs. And they brought in Shawn Bradley to improve the defense and rebounding of the Mavs. And Shawn Bradley was supposed to provided defense, good rebounding and he was a solid rim protector. Much better than Perkins.

You can say that they didn't fit well or whatever. But you are just disregarding their play completely. Dirk did have talent. They weren't the best in the league obviously, but lets not act OKC would trade over Perkins to Shawn Bradley or have Michael Finley as their third option currently.[/QUOTE]

Who would you rather have tho, Juwan Howard or Serge Ibaka?

[QUOTE=Micku]It doesn't. But it also doesn't make Dirk better either.



Hey now, come on. Bradley was a much better player than Perkins and I'm sure OKC would love to have him. His defense and rebounding was better. His offense is meh, but do you not agree he was better than Perkins? And Juwan Howard was solid scoring piece. He wasn't a scrub. A bad fit? Sure, you can argue that.

And it goes back to what you say about a constructed team, but it was mainly coaching than it was the players. Dirk had a talented team around him in his early Mavs years.



The Thunder 12 was a better team than most that Dirk had. But I think the early Mavs team could compare with Nash, Finley and Dirk at the core. Finley could give you 20, 5, 5.[/QUOTE]

I really don't think Bradley is better than Perkins, but it doesn't matter considering Bradley made no impact on the team in the playoffs any year in question. Well, he was awful in 03 when he put up a solid 3/4/0 on 44% TS in the playoffs for us in 14.5 mpg.

Howard only played on the 01 Mavs...and that 01 team was nowhere near as good as the 12 Thunder.

See, this is my problem. I totally agree Dirk has had some very good teams around him. Nobody is saying otherwise...

I said 03 would be your best bet...and it's tough for some reasons. 1 being that Dirk got hurt in the WCF in game 3. Another being that is was a run and run team with no center that played no defense...and another being that we didn't have a player as good as Westbrook outside of Dirk.

The Thunder, on the other hand, had a much better built roster for the playoffs in my opinion.

[QUOTE=Micku]Haha! Wow. You're acting like Juwan Howard was a scrub. He did give the team 18/7 and 15/8. He once had 22 and 8 before the Mavs. And they brought in Shawn Bradley to improve the defense and rebounding of the Mavs. And Shawn Bradley was supposed to provided defense, good rebounding and he was a solid rim protector. Much better than Perkins.

You can say that they didn't fit well or whatever. But you are just disregarding their play completely. Dirk did have talent. They weren't the best in the league obviously, but lets not act OKC would trade over Perkins to Shawn Bradley or have Michael Finley as their third option currently.[/QUOTE]

Nobody is saying Dirk didn't have talent, but you are propping up a guy that did this in the playoffs the year in question

13/8/1 36% fg 43% TS...and played shit defense.

And we were talking about the 12 team...but if you go down that road. Trust me...I'd much rather have a defensive big than Finley on either of those teams. Please give me the center equivalent of Ibaka in 03 over Finley. Please...we would have been so much better.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I really don't think Bradley is better than Perkins, but it doesn't matter considering Bradley made no impact on the team in the playoffs any year in question. [B] Well, he was awful in 03 when he put up a solid 3/4/0 on 44% TS in the playoffs for us in 14.5 mpg.[/B][/QUOTE]

If I can recall (correct me if I'm wrong), he was injured throughout the playoffs that year. He was always injury prone tho.

And he did made an impact on the team though. His rebounding and rim protection was worth it whenever he was healthy, and he was the center that the Mavs really needed because they were lacking in the middle. The dude was a big time shot blocker despite playing little minutes and he was pretty good rim protector and defender. But he was injury prone, inconsistent on offense (but much better than Perkins) and constant rotation by the coaching staff just ruin that. As I said before, you can blame the coach.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Howard only played on the 01 Mavs...and that 01 team was nowhere near as good as the 12 Thunder.

See, this is my problem. I totally agree Dirk has had some very good teams around him. Nobody is saying otherwise...

I said 03 would be your best bet...and it's tough for some reasons. 1 being that Dirk got hurt in the WCF in game 3. Another being that is was a run and run team with no center that played no defense...and another being that we didn't have a player as good as Westbrook outside of Dirk.

The Thunder, on the other hand, had a much better built roster for the playoffs in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

I agree that the Thunder was better. But not based upon talent or help that Durant had. Dirk did have help. More help than he did in the 06 team and the 11 team. Imo, it was more the coaching and the ability to make the talent work.

The early Mavs team reminds me of the late 90s Lakers team. Full of talent with no direction. They got Phil Jackson and Tex Winter and lead a less talented team to championships. While Don Nelson was a good coach, but give them Rick Carlisle from the beginning and they'll probably do better.

I don't even like Durant's free throw centric, padded game. And I think it's kind of obvious he's a superior version of Dirk. A black, better ball handling, more athletic version of Dirk. It's pretty obvious he's better.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Nobody is saying Dirk didn't have talent, but you are propping up a guy that did this in the playoffs the year in question

13/8/1 36% fg 43% TS...and played shit defense.

And we were talking about the 12 team...but if you go down that road. Trust me...I'd much rather have a defensive big than Finley on either of those teams. Please give me the center equivalent of Ibaka in 03 over Finley. Please...we would have been so much better.[/QUOTE]

And he was still better than Perkins. Especially healthy.

And Bradley was supposed to be that defensive presence for the Mavs. It just didn't work out. The Mavs in 03 were dealing with some injury problems (including Bradley I believe) got injured and Dirk as well. So they didn't have any depth. If Dirk didn't get injured, then it may have been a closer series.

People forgetting how good Michael Finley was.

[QUOTE=Micku]And he was still better than Perkins. Especially healthy.

And Bradley was supposed to be that defensive presence for the Mavs. It just didn't work out. The Mavs in 03 were dealing with some injury problems (including Bradley I believe) got injured and Dirk as well. So they didn't have any depth. If Dirk didn't get injured, then it may have been a closer series.[/QUOTE]

Of course. That is why I said 03 was your best bet. If Dirk doesn't go down...I actually think the mavs would have won.

Again...they had talent...it was the wrong kind though. It would be like having Durant, Harden, Westbrook, and Curry on the Thunder in 12. Although that's better than what the Mavs had in 03...you get the point.

It's not always just about raw talent. Winning with no center or defense is really hard. the Mavs might have been able to do it in 03, but my point was that I would have gladly traded finley for a defensive big. The thunder team had loads of talent and was properly built for playoff success.

And I honestly don't know what you are talking about with Bradley in 03.

He gave us 7/6/1 in the regular season and 3/4/0 in the playoffs. Perkins gave the Thunder 5/7/1 in the regular season and 5/6/1 in the playoffs. I just don't think there is any difference at all in those guys...

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]People forgetting how good Michael Finley was.[/QUOTE]
Finley was a shotjacker and the mavs wouldve done better if they put the ball in Nashs hands more than Finley

DMAVS...........Ibaka is not close to Marc Gasol WTF:wtf:
Tyson is also better Ibaka is overrated defender all he does is block shots he has a good midrange shot but he needs creation he cant do anything off ball either. Tyson set screens, moves good, creates space on O for mates Marc initiates offense can pass, shot handle the rock. They both better defenders and far better offnsive

Perkins is worst player in the league. Hes EASY worst offensive player this nikka turns it over 30% of the time and the other times he bricks it

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]People forgetting how good Michael Finley was.[/QUOTE]

Not really...he just wasn't as good as Westbrook.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]People forgetting how good Michael Finley was.[/QUOTE]

Except he's actually one of the more overrated players, at least by the time the Mavs started to make the playoffs.

By the time the Mavs started to become really good (2003) he already was a has-been, a former borderline all star without defense. The guy had like 1 good playoffs run (2002), one kinda good (but nowhere near all star worthy (2003) and all the rest was mediocre and worse.

I'll never understand why Cuban gave him that big contract, especially in contrast to trying to save money on Nash a few years later.

[QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG]Finley was a shotjacker and the mavs wouldve done better if they put the ball in Nashs hands more than Finley

DMAVS...........Ibaka is not close to Marc Gasol WTF:wtf:
Tyson is also better Ibaka is overrated defender all he does is block shots he has a good midrange shot but he needs creation he cant do anything off ball either. Tyson set screens, moves good, creates space on O for mates Marc initiates offense can pass, shot handle the rock. They both better defenders and far better offnsive

Perkins is worst player in the league. Hes EASY worst offensive player this nikka turns it over 30% of the time and the other times he bricks it[/QUOTE]

Who is the center equivalent to Ibaka? I don't care who it is...give me a center that can average 10/10/1 and play good defense and that team is raping people.

Ibaka fits perfectly next to Durant and Westbrook. A pf that can space the floor and defend and rebound. I agree about Gasol...not so much about Chandler. The point was just getting a player that fits perfectly next to them...Ibaka is the ideal pf for the Thunder. Just like a defensive minded solid rebounding center would be for the a WB/Dirk team.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Who is the center equivalent to Ibaka? I don't care who it is...give me a center that can average 10/10/1 and play good defense and that team is raping people.

[B]Ibaka fits perfectly next to Durant and Westbrook. A pf that can space the floor and defend and rebound[/B].[/QUOTE]

This, how is Ibaka getting underrated here? Is it just to prop up Durant?

Mavs wouldve beat Spurs in 03 if Dirk didnt get injured. They still won game with LaFrentz in place of Dirk by 12:roll: :roll:
Timmy got fvcking lucky any playoff team coming out west wouldve dominated the Nets

Dirk carry one of worst teams to 67:wtf: look at that roster:wtf:
Dirks dad was dying when they fought Warriors and he wasnt himself ppl forgot how good Dirk was

[QUOTE=Black and White]This, how is Ibaka getting underrated here? Is it just to prop up Durant?[/QUOTE]
Ibaka is good player but he isnt close to Marc Gasol who won DPOY and was best player on team that made WCF and won 56 games plz Ibaka can never do that hes 3rd option at best Marc is 1st

[QUOTE=NLZ]Durant... better stats while playing better defense.
Durant is the 2nd best player after LeBron.

Dirk was what, top 6-7? Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Garnett, Duncan etc etc were always better.[/QUOTE]

Current Durant wouldn't be considered the 2nd best player amongst those players either, so not sure of your point.

[QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG]Ibaka is good player but he isnt close to Marc Gasol who won DPOY and was best player on team that made WCF and won 56 games plz Ibaka can never do that hes 3rd option at best Marc is 1st[/QUOTE]
Z-Bo was the first option and quite clearly.

[QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG]Ibaka is good player but he isnt close to Marc Gasol who won DPOY and was best player on team that made WCF and won 56 games plz Ibaka can never do that hes 3rd option at best Marc is 1st[/QUOTE]

I never said he was in the same league as Gasol. But is Tyson Chandler in the same league as Gasol aswell? No. But that shouldn't discredit how good Ibaka can be. All DMavs is trying to say is this line up of

Westbrook + Prime Dirk + Tyson

Is similar to

Westbrook + Durant + Ibaka

and that the first lineup would have been able to win the title

[QUOTE=moe94]Z-Bo was the first option and quite clearly.[/QUOTE]

And yes, i was going to mention this also

[QUOTE=moe94]Z-Bo was the first option and quite clearly.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: this isnt 2011 nikka

Playoff
Marc-17/9 45% shoot w/ 3asts and 1to
Zbo-17/10 46% shoot w/ 2asts and 2to

they close offensively but Marc is WAYYYYYYYYY better defense he was easy their best player

[QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG]Mavs wouldve beat Spurs in 03 if Dirk didnt get injured. They still won game with LaFrentz in place of Dirk by 12:roll: :roll:
Timmy got fvcking lucky any playoff team coming out west wouldve dominated the Nets

Dirk carry one of worst teams to 67:wtf: look at that roster:wtf:
Dirks dad was dying when they fought Warriors and he wasnt himself ppl forgot how good Dirk was[/QUOTE]

Link to article about Dirk's dad? I never heard that before...

[QUOTE=Hamtaro CP3KDKG]:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: this isnt 2011 nikka

Playoff
Marc-17/9 45% shoot w/ 3asts and 1to
Zbo-17/10 46% shoot w/ 2asts and 2to

they close offensively but Marc is WAYYYYYYYYY better defense [B]he was easy their best player[/B][/QUOTE]

Wrong, it is not clear cut, they were both as good as each other, but on the offensive end i think z-bo was the first option, gasol was second