Because it's very hard to throw a perfect punch while wearing skates. And it's part of their Hockey cultures.
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Because it's very hard to throw a perfect punch while wearing skates. And it's part of their Hockey cultures.
[QUOTE=STATUTORY]because white men fighting on skates is a better optic than black men brawling in shorts, tats, and headbands, the latter is too reminiscent of real life while the former has a surrealistic comedic element
this is about as REAL a response as u gonna get Go Getter[/QUOTE]
What about Brasher? Evander Kane had a nice scrap a few nights ago. Look at basketball fights, they look more like women fighting than anything sans the Pistons Brawl and some punches thrown back in the 70's and 80's. NHL fights are waaaay more brutal, NBA scuffles just involve alot of people crowding together and somebody throwing a punch and backing up.
People don't care about the NHL fights because it happened last night, will happen the next night and happened 15 years ago. People care about fighting in the NBA because it has never been allowed and has no place in the game.
Has NOTHING to do with race.
[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]Uhh because there different sports? If fighting had been legal or had happened consistently since the start of the NFL and across all levels than people wouldn't call it classless.
I remember playing hockey as like a 8 year old and hitting eachother in the face with gloves/helmets on in the dressing rooms. When you played with adults people would always jokingly try to drop the mitts. Have you ever heard the term jersey'd? That stems from hockey.
There's alot of people that want it out of the game. They are struggling too because it's such apart of hockey culture. Fighting isn't apart of the NFL or NBA. Infact the NFL has been trying to make the game less physical by protecting the QB's and WR's and simply changed the rules. People who want fighting gone can't do that.
Not trying to be a dick but can't understand why you can't see this.[/QUOTE]
I understand that it is part of the game but it isn't necessary to progress the game. They are different sports but the same country categorizes the players.
We see hockey players as tough guys, but NBA players as punks....in the NBA players like Blake Griffin get targeted and hit more than the average player but he is supposed to keep his composure or he is called a thug for small skirmishes. But hockey players are lauded...it's hypocritical to me.
Not trying to be a dick but can't understand why you can't see this.
[QUOTE=Lebron23]Because it's very hard to throw a perfect punch while wearing skates. And it's part of their Hockey cultures.[/QUOTE]
It's a part of basketball and football culture to talk trash but if it finds it's way to TV people get their panties all in a bunch.
[QUOTE=Go Getter]I understand that it is part of the game but it isn't necessary to progress the game. They are different sports but the same country categorizes the players.
We see hockey players as tough guys, but NBA players as punks....in the NBA players like Blake Griffin get targeted and hit more than the average player but he is supposed to keep his composure or he is called a thug for small skirmishes. But hockey players are lauded...it's hypocritical to me.
Not trying to be a dick but can't understand why you can't see this.[/QUOTE]
What's your question? Why is there fighting in hockey or why do basketball players get labelled as thugs while NHL players don't?
[QUOTE=Go Getter]In light of tonight's brawl between the Flames & Canucks I wanted to ask the question: why is it that hockey players get away with fighting yet in basketball [and other major sports] small scuffles are treated like major offenses?[/QUOTE]
Because when non-colored folks do it, its toughness, competitive, part of the game, needed for the sport, etc etc. When colored folks do it, its ghetto, poor sportsmanship, dangerous colored folks acting up for no reason, thugs, gangsters, etc.
No one can explain why hockey needs fighting. If they ban people from NHL forever for fighting, after the first 5 guys get banned, the rest will get in line and stop fighting. Money > anything when it comes to professional sports.
[QUOTE]I understand that it is part of the game but it isn't necessary to progress the game. They are different sports but the same country categorizes the players.[/QUOTE]
The same country? Hockey is waaay more dominant in Canada than the USA where in some markets it's practically dead. Where as with basketball some areas in Canada could careless about it. So yeah North America but different areas and totally different fans. Not to mention LeBron James is everywhere, probably some people in L.A who don't know who Crosby is.
You said it yourself tho, different sports.
Fighting in a sport where it's allowed and has been always = Nobody caring.
Fighting in a sport where fighting isn't allowed = get called a thug.
Kinda like breaking the law, thug. Follow the rules of the law, not a thug. Like I said tho that incident last night will have people putting players on the hot seat. For example I've seen somebody call Kevin Bieska who fought last night a "spot picker". Which fans do because you know fighting it apart of hockey.
[QUOTE]We see hockey players as tough guys, but NBA players as punks....in the NBA players like Blake Griffin get targeted and hit more than the average player but he is supposed to keep his composure or he is called a thug for small skirmishes. But hockey players are lauded...it's hypocritical to me.[/QUOTE]
Seriously? How can't you understand that fighting isn't apart of basketball like hockey. What Blake Griffin is doing is suspendable. People do call players names when they do something similar in hockey. Matt Cooke is considering a piece of shit because he does dirty things that get him suspended. Tie Domi wasn't because he dropped the gloves with other players who also wanted to drop the gloves and did something that has been apart of hockey for ages. Even than Domi got his fairshare of hate from opposing fans, esp the over the glass thing.
Also compare the two. A large group of players, nobody goes toe to toe. You have guys like Melo who sucker people and run. Guys who talk shit and never actually throw a punch and just look like immature kids since you know, it's not legal to fight in basketball. With hockey when somebody lays a dirty hit and a guy steps up and defends his teammate you can feel the momentum sway. Two guys going at it you've seen since you started watching the game, it's like a crossover. It's apart of the game, with basketball seeing Kobe swing his arms at somebody looks stupid because your like this is basketball.
[QUOTE]Not trying to be a dick but can't understand why you can't see this[/QUOTE]
Yeah your a complete fool. It'd be like me trying to talk about baseball. I don't even know what your trying to get at. You don't even realize how laughable what your saying is, which is crazy. This is up there for people blindly thinking whats coming out of there mouth isn't completely ridiculous. Even the people trying to get rid of fighting in hockey understand what I'm saying.
BTW somebody calling an NBA player a punk is no different than somebody calling a hockey player a goon :roll:
I don't watch hockey often, but when I do I hope for a fight.
[QUOTE=Jameerthefear]because no one gives a shit about hockey[/QUOTE]
Hockey games have sold out more arenas than Basketball has this season. Fact.
[QUOTE=Go Getter]It's a part of basketball and football culture to talk trash but if it finds it's way to TV people get their panties all in a bunch.[/QUOTE]
LOL and you don't think they do the same with the NHL? You don't think fans aren't calling Torts or what Hartley did bush league? .. It just appears you have no fcking idea about hockey and came on ISH to be like uhhhh why do people not give hockey players shit for fighting and talking about something you have no idea about.
Look up Sean Avery. Check out Don Cherry. Fighting is simply apart of the game but people still call players goons, give them shit when they do something stupid. John Scott was crucified by some because he's a 6'6 enforced which is rare today because enforcers are deff a dying breed, who tried to fight Phil Kessel. People tore that situation apart because Kessel swung his stick at him, and you know what? He was called a PUNK. People called Scott an idiot too.
People just don't hate on LEGAL hockey plays that are apart of the game, just like people don't hate Kobe for knocking down a 3.
Trash talk isn't in the rulebook you fcking moron.
[QUOTE=moe94]NuggetsFan, not trying to be a dick or whatever, but why is the fighting necessary? Did you already go through it?[/QUOTE]
Yeah dude. Instead of rambling :lol
- Police the game themselves, players are held accountable for the plays they make, protect the stars.
- Momentum. 82 game season. Team is playing lazy and you get a scrap going it can completely change the game.
- Emotion. Venting, rivalries etc.
- History/Tradition. It's been around since what like the 20's? Every player watched it on TV since they were kids and have grown up with it in there leagues as well.
[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]LOL and you don't think they do the same with the NHL? You don't think fans aren't calling Torts or what Hartley did bush league? .. It just appears you have no fcking idea about hockey and came on ISH to be like uhhhh why do people not give hockey players shit for fighting and talking about something you have no idea about.
Look up Sean Avery. Check out Don Cherry. Fighting is simply apart of the game but people still call players goons, give them shit when they do something stupid. John Scott was crucified by some because he's a 6'6 enforced which is rare today because enforcers are deff a dying breed, who tried to fight Phil Kessel. People tore that situation apart because Kessel swung his stick at him, and you know what? He was called a PUNK. People called Scott an idiot too.
People just don't hate on LEGAL hockey plays that are apart of the game, just like people don't hate Kobe for knocking down a 3.
Trash talk isn't in the rulebook you fcking moron.[/QUOTE]
You said culture and I pointed to a cultural aspect of the game.
What I hear from you is justification of violence in hockey simply "because it's tradition."
That doesn't really answer the question for me.
The sport could be more hockey and little to no fighting but that's the way people like it.
Again, I'm not downing hockey just the perception of fighting in hockey vs. other sports.
Also, the NHL is an American corporation...no matter how popular the sport is in Canada or other areas, the N in NHL stands for the US.
[QUOTE=moe94]Why is it more needed in this sport than any other sport? It would seem like all those things you said could apply to any team sport yet they absolutely frown upon fighting and it's certainly not part of the game. I figured there was a deeper meaning.[/QUOTE]
The physicality maybe. They didn't even use helmets when hockey first started. Hockey is body contact, NBA is not. NFL has hit obviously but has a much slower pace and less risk of "dirty" plays. I don't even know how NFL could have fighting? Inbetween plays and just give out 5 minute penalties? Just give a flag and let the players stay in the game? Hockey has a penalty box. Fighting is in the rule book right down to an instigator penalty. NFL has fighting as an ejection similar to minor leagues of hockey.
It's not needed more probably, actually some people these days who think it should be outta the game. It's just apart of the sport, it's how the game was made. I guess you don't get to pick and choose the rules. I find it entertaining so I'm happy with it. It's like how you can't kick the ball in basketball, it's just not allowed.
I personally don't see how it could be any other way as person who's watched it/played it for a pretty long time.
[QUOTE=moe94]Why is it more needed in this sport than any other sport? It would seem like all those things you said could apply to any team sport yet they absolutely frown upon fighting and it's certainly not part of the game. I figured there was a deeper meaning.[/QUOTE]
Deeper meaning is this....when white folks do it, its part of the game, when colored folks do it, they are thugs and gangsters.
You mean to tell me that fighting is needed more in NHL versus NFL?
[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]The physicality maybe. They didn't even use helmets when hockey first started. Hockey is body contact, NBA is not. NFL has hit obviously but has a much slower pace and less risk of "dirty" plays. I don't even know how NFL could have fighting? Inbetween plays and just give out 5 minute penalties? Just give a flag and let the players stay in the game? Hockey has a penalty box. Fighting is in the rule book right down to an instigator penalty. NFL has fighting as an ejection similar to minor leagues of hockey.
It's not needed more probably, actually some people these days who think it should be outta the game. It's just apart of the sport, it's how the game was made. I guess you don't get to pick and choose the rules. I find it entertaining so I'm happy with it. It's like how you can't kick the ball in basketball, it's just not allowed.
I personally don't see how it could be any other way as person who's watched it/played it for a pretty long time.[/QUOTE]
Football (American) started it without head gear protection too.
[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]The physicality maybe. They didn't even use helmets when hockey first started. Hockey is body contact, NBA is not. NFL has hit obviously but has a much slower pace and less risk of "dirty" plays. I don't even know how NFL could have fighting? Inbetween plays and just give out 5 minute penalties? Just give a flag and let the players stay in the game? Hockey has a penalty box. Fighting is in the rule book right down to an instigator penalty. NFL has fighting as an ejection similar to minor leagues of hockey.
It's not needed more probably, actually some people these days who think it should be outta the game. It's just apart of the sport, it's how the game was made. I guess you don't get to pick and choose the rules. I find it entertaining so I'm happy with it. It's like how you can't kick the ball in basketball, it's just not allowed.
I personally don't see how it could be any other way as person who's watched it/played it for a pretty long time.[/QUOTE]
NFL has less chance of dirty plays?:biggums:
Idk about that.
There is no gear in rugby either but they don't fight from what I've seen.
[QUOTE=Go Getter]NFL has less chance of dirty plays?:biggums:
Idk about that.[/QUOTE]
Dudes just trying to justify a point to support his argument
NHL fight supporters are like those dudes that try to explain how evolution is wrong and creationism is more real.
Fun fact, NFL started without helmets so that rules out NHL playing without protection. Cheap shots in NFL can be had in every play, in fact happen more often than you would think. Ever heard of tripping, clipping, gouging???
[QUOTE=Go Getter]There is no gear in rugby either but they don't fight from what I've seen.[/QUOTE]
:applause: :applause: :applause:
[QUOTE]You said culture and I pointed to a cultural aspect of the game.[/QUOTE]
Correct. It's also apart of the rules of the sport tho, trash talk is not. Fighting is both apart of the culture and in the rule book.
[QUOTE]What I hear from you is justification of violence in hockey simply "because it's tradition."[/QUOTE]
It's hockey. If you think it's too violent or fighting shouldn't be allowed that's completely fair to say. You would not be alone. Just don't compare it to sports where fighting is illegal and not apart of the game. That's stupid, what you said here is not. That's a legit opinion.
[QUOTE]That doesn't really answer the question for me.
The sport could be more hockey and little to no fighting but that's the way people like it.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah that's fine. It's the way I like it. Like I said there are the hockey fans that dislike it and think it should be removed. It has been to some degree too, mostly because of enforcers post hockey. Concussions, quality of life etc.
[QUOTE]Again, I'm not downing hockey just the perception of fighting in hockey vs. other sports.[/QUOTE]
This is what's ridiculous. Too lazy to continue to ramble but just doesn't make sense. Basketball and football fighting isn't allowed, so why compare it to a sport where fighting is apart of? ..
[QUOTE]Also, the NHL is an American corporation...no matter how popular the sport is in Canada or other areas, the N in NHL stands for the US.[/QUOTE]
This is where you can tell your lack of hockey knowledge is exposed.
464 players in the NHL are from Canada.
215 from USA
69 from Sweeden
37 from Czech Rebuplic
31 from Russia
27 from Finland.
NHL is dominant in Canada. It's Canada's game, TSN is the main media and that's from Canada. The media coverage in Canada compared to the states is insane. The main route to the NHL is playing in the CHL, other would be playing in Europe of Div 1 in America.
I don't care if the N stands for national how the NBA/NFL is viewed is dominant in America like hockey is dominant in Canada. PERIOD.
[QUOTE=Go Getter]NFL has less chance of dirty plays?:biggums:
Idk about that.[/QUOTE]
IMO yeah. What do you have? Late hits? Horse collar? Cheap shots obviously, not hockey is filled with cheap shit.
[IMG]http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/3885803/eratspear_medium.gif[/IMG]
Latest incident in the NHL that's getting ripped apart by the media/fans. Basically getting called a "punk"
[QUOTE=Solidape]:applause: :applause: :applause:[/QUOTE]
I have no knowledge of rugby so won't speak on it. Something you two should learn from.
[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]IMO yeah. What do you have? Late hits? Horse collar? Cheap shots obviously, not hockey is filled with cheap shit.
[IMG]http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/3885803/eratspear_medium.gif[/IMG]
Latest incident in the NHL that's getting ripped apart by the media/fans. Basically getting called a "punk"[/QUOTE]
NHL can always make rules to suspend that guy for 20 (or XX games) games without pay!
After a while this sort of behavior will go down, not away, money talks.
[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]IMO yeah. What do you have? Late hits? Horse collar? Cheap shots obviously, not hockey is filled with cheap shit.
[IMG]http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/3885803/eratspear_medium.gif[/IMG]
Latest incident in the NHL that's getting ripped apart by the media/fans. Basically getting called a "punk"[/QUOTE]
Yeah but the pile ups in football are frequent and it is very easy to do all sorts of cheap stuff without getting caught.
[QUOTE=Solidape]NHL can always make rules to suspend that guy for 20 (or XX games) games without pay!
After a while this sort of behavior will go down, not away, money talks.[/QUOTE]
They could and he will get suspended, and a player like Erat won't even have to drop the gloves usually. Like I said the game has changed.
Your issue seems to be with how stupid fighting in hockey is. Which I understand completely. Tons of people are like wait a minute why do they fight? That's alright, even hockey fans who believe that.
It's the comparing to the likes of NFL/NBA that's funny. It's like a non basketball fan being like hey they kick the ball in soccer, why can't they in basketball?
Take your issue with the creators/innovators/pioneers of the sports because are who formed the game. People with hockey just so happened to include fighting right or wrong how it is and why it's different from the NBA and NFL both of which I like just as much if not more :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=Go Getter]Yeah but the pile ups in football are frequent and it is very easy to do all sorts of cheap stuff without getting caught.[/QUOTE]
Every sport has their cheap shot opportunities, only difference is that some hockey fans try to justify the use of those in their sport because hockey is magically a different sport and must have fighting or the game cannot work.
Start blacklisting players that fight from NHL and in a few years no one will fight, at least the smart ones wont.
[QUOTE=Go Getter]Yeah but the pile ups in football are frequent and it is very easy to do all sorts of cheap stuff without getting caught.[/QUOTE]
True. I feel with football the craziest hits are the legal ones tho and players don't care because that's football, just like fights are hockey. Really tho that's subjective, I feel I see more dirty plays in hockey. I could be wrong.
[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]They could and he will get suspended, and a player like Erat won't even have to drop the gloves usually. Like I said the game has changed.
Your issue seems to be with how stupid fighting in hockey is. Which I understand completely. Tons of people are like wait a minute why do they fight? That's alright, even hockey fans who believe that.
It's the comparing to the likes of NFL/NBA that's funny. It's like a non basketball fan being like hey they kick the ball in soccer, why can't they in basketball?
Take your issue with the [B]creators/innovators/pioneers[/B] of the sports because are who formed the game. People with hockey just so happened to include fighting right or wrong how it is and why it's different from the NBA and NFL both of which I like just as much if not more :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Those dudes are long dead man.
[QUOTE=Solidape]
Start blacklisting players that fight from NHL and in a few years no one will fight, at least the smart ones wont.[/QUOTE]
This is actually kinda getting funny now :oldlol:
[QUOTE=NuggetsFan]True. I feel with football the craziest hits are the legal ones tho and players don't care because that's football, just like fights are hockey. Really tho that's subjective, I feel I see more dirty plays in hockey. I could be wrong.[/QUOTE]
I know it seems like I want to tear down hockey but I don't. I'm challenging people's perception of hockey players compared to the perception of other athletes.
[QUOTE=Solidape]Those dudes are long dead man.[/QUOTE]
Yup. Ask the people in charge now how hard it is to change the past. There's players/coaches/GM's even who probably want fighting gone. I'm sure someday it will too, but not anytime soon because as it stands now it's just such apart of hockey.
All tho they've added new rules. Ugly goalie fight this year with one player who didn't wanna drop them that resulted in a new rule, Emery I believe was the idiot. He got called out for it by the media, fans tho. Not sure how Go Getter didn't see it.
[QUOTE=Solidape]Every sport has their cheap shot opportunities, only difference is that some hockey fans try to justify the use of those in their sport because hockey is magically a different sport and must have fighting or the game cannot work.[/QUOTE]
I kind of get this feeling as well.
[QUOTE=Go Getter]I know it seems like I want to tear down hockey but I'm not. I'm challenging people's perception of hockey players compared to the perception of other athletes.[/QUOTE]
Which is easily answered. One sport it's allowed. Why it's allowed or should it be allowed? Say what you will. It is tho. Other sports it's not allowed. That's why people perceive them different. With that being said people/media do give NHL players shit for certain stuff surrounding fights, guess you miss it.
I'm sure other factors come into play, not that naive. NHL players make waaaaay less money, aren't in the media as much in America, come from different backgrounds, don't have as much off the court issues such as the Kobe incident, obviously racist people out there and it's mostly white guys. Compare Crosby, Duchene, Doughty to LeBron, J.R Smith etc. or whatever and yeah people are douchebags about it.
That's subjective tho, not concrete. Whats concrete is the rule book allows for players to fight in hockey and than get sent to the penalty box, NBA/NFL don't allow that.
Seriously, I've never seen a thread go in this many circles :lol
I guess what it boils down to is this (not directed at you Go getter)
Humans are ignorant when it comes to things they are unfamiliar with. That's really the explanation to why hockey fights are not accepted outside the hockey culture.
Let's look at it another way.
What if someone up in Flin Flon, Manitoba, Canada who has never seen a lick of basketball in his life catches an NBA game. He notices that when a shot goes up from deep nobody goes up and challenges it before it goes in the net. We explain it's called goal tending, it's not a new rule, it's been around forever, it gives the other team a shot at scoring from far. The guys says, well in every other sport you can contest a ball/puck from the goal line in any spot on the field/court/ice, why is it different in basketball? Is it hypocrisy?
Is there something wrong with his perception? That's the way he sees it in other sports? What makes basketball any different? It all boils down to accepting different cultures
[QUOTE=hateraid]Seriously, I've never seen a thread go in this many circles :lol
I guess what it boils down to is this (not directed at you Go getter)
Humans are ignorant when it comes to things they are unfamiliar with. That's really the explanation to why hockey fights are not accepted outside the hockey culture.
Let's look at it another way.
What if someone up in Flin Flon, Manitoba, Canada who has never seen a lick of basketball in his life catches an NBA game. He notices that when a shot goes up from deep nobody goes up and challenges it before it goes in the net. We explain it's called goal tending, it's not a new rule, it's been around forever, it gives the other team a shot at scoring from far. The guys says, well in every other sport you can contest a ball/puck from the goal line in any spot on the field/court/ice, why is it different in basketball? Is it hypocrisy?
Is there something wrong with his perception? That's the way he sees it in other sports? What makes basketball any different? It all boils down to accepting different cultures[/QUOTE]
:biggums: what kind of analogy is that. Fighting is not enabled by the rules of the sport, it's prohibited in Hockey just as it is in basketball. what we are discussing is why society and audience tacitly acknowledge and accept fighting between players in hockey while abhor it in basketball. it's decidedly not an issue of rules but perception
[QUOTE=STATUTORY]:biggums: what kind of analogy is that. Fighting is not enabled by the rules of the sport, it's prohibited in Hockey just as it is in basketball. what we are discussing is why society and audience tacitly acknowledge and accept fighting between players in hockey while abhor it in basketball. it's decidedly not an issue of rules but perception[/QUOTE]
You've just agreed with me and didn't realize it
Baseball has dugout clearing brawls every year, that result in only cupcake penalties, lets add them into the discussion.
ahhh can't wait to watch this flyers and islanders game in an hour, hopefully wayne simmonds(he's black since this is really what this thread is about) beats the shit out of an islander.
[QUOTE=Styles p]ahhh can't wait to watch this flyers and islanders game in an hour, hopefully wayne simmonds(he's black since this is really what this thread is about) beats the shit out of an islander.[/QUOTE]
Man sit yo simple ass down.:facepalm
[QUOTE=Norcaliblunt]Baseball has dugout clearing brawls every year, that result in only cupcake penalties, lets add them into the discussion.[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
Cupcake penalties? People get suspended for games that results in the loss of thousands of dollars.
Hockey players are the only athletes that get a slap on the wrist for fighting.