Larry Bird vs. Magic Johnson - Complete Career Head-to-Head Stats

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Well, I can respect your opinion...even if I might disagree with it. But, I'm sure that you would at least be able to provide some actual research to back up your stance. Unfortunately, on this Forum, the majority of the Bird-lovers can only use opinions (and laced with EXCUSES), with absolutely nothing to back them up.[/QUOTE]
Well, I don't have a GOAT list, as you know, so I'm just rating in terms of quality as a player. If this is a resume battle Magic will win out.

Just from watching games of Bird though, from 79-80 through 87-88, I just think he was on a higher level entirely as a player than Magic ever was. This is entirely subjective and hard to describe, but it's just the impression I get.

I don't have a problem with anybody's opinion on the matter, as I'm sure each person came to his conclusions on his own. I just don't see it, from watching their games or looking at the data.

Again, I haven't researched it too much so I probably shouldn't comment, just the impression I get.

:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]Sorry man, not sure how old you are, but I watched it all. And what you're saying sounds pretty good on paper, but doesn't pass the eye test.

Bird was definitely considered the better player before '86. I remember that clearly. For the thousandth time, Bird was going up against Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, and the most intimidating playoff defense of all time with long rangy forwards in the bad boys Pistons, Rodman, etc..
You can't go with head to head stats here, because of THAT alone, and because it's easier to pass over small guards and rack up assists than it is to score in these series.
Think of yourself going into a gym, and the guy guarding you is your D3 little brother. You're gonna put up numbers. Now they switch up and put a D1 guy whose just as big as you, quick, and has one sole purpose of stopping you, and he looks like Michael Cooper. You ain't gonna put up numbers.

And if you think the East wasn't tougher than the West back then, you're high.
Magic's Lakers always cruised through high scoring series to rack up stats and be fresher for the finals. Always.
[B]I always thought Magic had the much better supporting cast too. Jabbar, Worthy, and much more athletic, longer scorers and defenders.
If you put Bird with Jabbar and Worthy and Cooper and Scott and Wilkes, etc.,forget it they would have kicked the Celtics a**. You may not think that, I know that.[/B]

All said I have no agenda, I'll take Magic. But it is barely.[/QUOTE]

You must know jacks**t then my friend. Rookie Magic was able to carry a team to a clinching blowout road win, withOUT Kareem.

He also led a Laker team to a 63-19 record withOUT Kareem, and then followed that up by taking an injury-riddled and rapidly declining roster to a 58-24 record, and a trip to the Finals, in his LAST season.

And for the record, I am CONVINCED that they could have plugged Stanley Hudson into Kareem's slot in the '88 post-season and won a title. Kareem was absolutely AWFUL in that post-season, and then was even WORSE in the Finals (and I can't recall any other GOAT candidate ever having a worse game seven.) They won a title that season, DESPITE Kareem.

And I will contend that they were deep and talented enough to have won a title in '87 without him, too. Thompson and Green proved they could fill his shoes.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]kareem is overrated....but your post is laughable. you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

btw, bill Russell was better than wilt....no question about it.....wilt rebounded like a schoolgirl in the entire 60s and road jerry west's coattails....the lakers were better without wilt.....that's why in game 7 of the 1969 finals they made a run with him on the bench.[/QUOTE]
Did somebody just fart?

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Who is this "alt", and who is "owning me?"

jlauber? He is dead according to your alt, Millwad.

And have you read any of his posts here lately?

Goota love it. When someone agrees with me, they have to be an "alt."

You need to get find another hobby. Something that doesn't require any knowledge.[/QUOTE]

I don't think he's Millwood, Millwood would debate and know how create his own arguments rather than imagining other people are doing it impressively for him.

[QUOTE=fpliii]Well, I don't have a GOAT list, as you know, so I'm just rating in terms of quality as a player. If this is a resume battle Magic will win out.

Just from watching games of Bird though, from 79-80 through 87-88, I just think he was on a higher level entirely as a player than Magic ever was. This is entirely subjective and hard to describe, but it's just the impression I get.

I don't have a problem with anybody's opinion on the matter, as I'm sure each person came to his conclusions on his own. I just don't see it, from watching their games or looking at the data.

Again, I haven't researched it too much so I probably shouldn't comment, just the impression I get.

:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

I saw both of them play in their entire careers. Other than the three-peat Bird, (and again, Magic was MUCH better in their Finals H2H that season, and in the playoffs in general), I had Magic over him every single season the two were in the league together.

The problem for Magic, was that he was asked to run the offense. Could he scored more? Absolutely. He proved that time-and-again in his career. Hell in the BIRD-MAGIC career H2H's, it was MAGIC with the TWO highest scoring games. I have no doubt that Magic could have put up 30 ppg seasons in the 80's. My god, look at his FG% and TS%'s. Until Lebron came along, Magic had, by far, the most efficient seasons by a guard in NBA history (although, using eFG% league averages, Oscar had equal seasons in the 60's.)

And Magic was simply a more productive player in the post-season. Bird had some legendary AWFUL shooting series in his post-season career. He actually shot below the league average in his post-season career.

H2H Magic was better, and think about this...had Worthy not made ONE ill-advised pass in the '84 Finals, the Lakers would have won that series in six. And, had Magic not missed ONE FT, the Lakers would have SWEPT Boston in that series. They were one of those plays or shots away, from having a 3-0 record against Bird's Celtics in their three Finals' H2H's. Where do you think Bird would be on most of these "lists" under those circumstances?

I have provided their post-season info...and it is UGLY for Bird.

Again, Bird has a case for being better in '81 (but, he was awful in the Finals), '84 (again, ONE play away from Magic winning yet another FMVP), and solidly in '86. Magic RUNS AWAY with the better post-seasons in '80, '82, '83, '85, '87, '88, '89, '90, and '91.

Same number of MVPs, Magic with more FMVPs (and was robbed in '88), more Rings, More Finals, did more with less. Right down the line. Magic's RESUME is CLEARLY better than Bird's.

I understand where you're coming from, but for each of these seasons, who was better in your opinion (not better season or playoffs run, per se, but who the superior player)?

79-80
80-81
81-82
82-83
83-84
84-85
85-86
86-87
87-88

[QUOTE=fpliii]Well, I don't have a GOAT list, as you know, so I'm just rating in terms of quality as a player. If this is a resume battle Magic will win out.

Just from watching games of Bird though, from 79-80 through 87-88, I just think he was on a higher level entirely as a player than Magic ever was. This is entirely subjective and hard to describe, but it's just the impression I get.

I don't have a problem with anybody's opinion on the matter, as I'm sure each person came to his conclusions on his own. I just don't see it, from watching their games or looking at the data.

Again, I haven't researched it too much so I probably shouldn't comment, just the impression I get.

:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
On the strength, Bird was a great combination of smarts, skills, full offensive repertoire, passing, rebounding, scoring, disarming the defense, and team play there are very few that could be as effective in his many ways.

[QUOTE=fpliii]I understand where you're coming from, but for each of these seasons, who was better in your opinion (not better season or playoffs run, per se, but who the superior player)?

79-80
80-81
81-82
82-83
83-84
84-85
85-86
86-87
87-88[/QUOTE]

ENTIRE seasons, and covering the post-season?

Magic in '80
Bird in '81
Magic in '82 (BTW a near triple-double regular AND post-season)
Magic in '83
Bird in '84
Magic in '85
Bird in '86
Magic in '87
Magic in '88
and beyond...

Again, research has clearly shown us that Magic could have scored far more in his career. So, using scoring against Johnson won't fly. Bird was a better rebounder, but Magic was among the greatest rebounding guards of all-time. And Magic was clearly a better passer (albeit, Bird, along with Lebron, are probably the two greatest passing Forwards of all-time.) Magic was MUCH more efficient, in... REGULAR season, POST-SEASON, and FINALS, as well as H2H.

And I have already debunked this ridiculous theory that he had better rosters. He won a title clinching game, on the road, without the regular season MVP. He led two teams, both on the decline BTW, and after KAJ, had retired, to records of 63-19 and 58-24 (and a trip to the Finals.) And I'm sorry KAJ fans, but he would have won a ring in '88 with ME at center, and likely would have won a ring in '87 with Green and Thompson splitting all the minutes at center.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]ENTIRE seasons, and covering the post-season?

Magic in '80
Bird in '81
Magic in '82 (BTW a near triple-double regular AND post-season)
Magic in '83
Bird in '84
Magic in '85
Bird in '86
Magic in '87
Magic in '88
and beyond...

Again, research has clearly shown us that Magic could have scored far more in his career. So, using scoring against Johnson won't fly. Bird was a better rebounder, but Magic was among the greatest rebounding guards of all-time. And Magic was clearly a better passer (albeit, Bird, along with Lebron, are probably the two greatest passing Forwards of all-time.) Magic was MUCH more efficient, in... REGULAR season, POST-SEASON, and FINALS, as well as H2H.

And I have already debunked this ridiculous theory that he had better rosters. He won a title clinching game, on the road, without the regular season MVP. He led two teams, both on the decline BTW, and after KAJ, had retired, to records of 63-19 and 58-24 (and a trip to the Finals.) And I'm sorry KAJ fans, but he would have won a ring in '88 with ME at center, and likely would have won a ring in '87 with Green and Thompson splitting all the minutes at center.[/QUOTE]
Interesting, thanks for your breakdown.

BTW I still have to finish "When the Game Was Ours", but here are a couple of good anecdotes from early on:

[QUOTE]When Kelser and Magic arrived back at their hotel, Kelser gathered the team together and told them to start locking into their game assignments.

"This Bird guy is really serious," Kelser reported. "He's already got his game face on."

Heathcote spent his entire practice before the championship game devising ways to slow Bird. His frustration grew as one after another of his subs impersonated number 33, yet failed to duplicate the kind of offensive firepower Heathcote knew was coming.

"This isn't working," Heathcote said. "You guys don't play anything like Bird. Earvin, you be Larry

[QUOTE=fpliii]Interesting, thanks for your breakdown.

BTW I still have to finish "When the Game Was Ours", but here are a couple of good anecdotes from early on:





There's also the story about the World Invitational Tournament, but this video does it better justice:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjYuKvJS55E[/url][/QUOTE]

Great stuff, as always.

BTW, I get crushed by the Bird fans here, but in all honesty, could you rank Bird higher (if you had a GOAT list), in terms of carrer success, with solid criteria, over these players?

MJ
Wilt
Russell
Magic
KAJ
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron
Kobe

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Great stuff, as always.

BTW, I get crushed by the Bird fans here, but in all honesty, could you rank Bird higher (if you had a GOAT list), in terms of carrer success, with solid criteria, over these players?

MJ
Wilt
Russell
Magic
KAJ
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron
Kobe[/QUOTE]
I don't rate in terms of career success though, just in terms of ability, impact and who I'd take in what order an all-time draft.

Apologies, legacy/GOAT lists don't interest me TBH.

[QUOTE=fpliii]I don't rate in terms of career success though, just in terms of ability, impact and who I'd take in what order an all-time draft.

Apologies, legacy/GOAT lists don't interest me TBH.[/QUOTE]

At least you are consistent.

As for myself, I try to use a combination of criteria (of which I provided in a post above.) And in terms of overall career resumes, I don't see Bird having a case, (or at best, a flimsy one) over those players I listed.

For example, did he have the IMPACT that Shaq had? Did he perform as brilliantly in the post-season, as Shaq did? How about their Finals? Was he a better scorer (how many scoring titles?) Was he a better rebounder? He did have more MVPs, but in reality, Shaq was the best player in the league in probably five seasons, while Bird could never claim that many. FMVP's? Rings? I mean, if you go right down the list, Shaq had a better overall resume.

Lebron? Scoring? Both in regular season and post-season? FMVP's? MVPs? Rings (yes, Bird is still clinging to an edge here), Finals performances, including game seven's? Team success (Lebron did more with less in Cleveland for sure.) Again, overall, and Lebron has a solid edge...and it will only get bigger.

In any case, I just don't see Bird having a case over any of those guys...

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]At least you are consistent.

As for myself, I try to use a combination of criteria (of which I provided in a post above.) And in terms of overall career resumes, I don't see Bird having a case, (or at best, a flimsy one) over those players I listed.

For example, did he have the IMPACT that Shaq had? Did he perform as brilliantly in the post-season, as Shaq did? How about their Finals? Was he a better scorer (how many scoring titles?) Was he a better rebounder? He did have more MVPs, but in reality, Shaq was the best player in the league in probably five seasons, while Bird could never claim that many. FMVP's? Rings? I mean, if you go right down the list, Shaq had a better overall resume.

Lebron? Scoring? Both in regular season and post-season? FMVP's? MVPs? Rings (yes, Bird is still clinging to an edge here), Finals performances, including game seven's? Team success (Lebron did more with less in Cleveland for sure.) Again, overall, and Lebron has a solid edge...and it will only get bigger.

In any case, I just don't see Bird having a case over any of those guys...[/QUOTE]
Where do Oscar and Dr. J fit into all of this?

[QUOTE=fpliii]Where do Oscar and Dr. J fit into all of this?[/QUOTE]

You tell me.

Using Dr. J's prime seasons in the ABA, and then he has a case over Bird.

Oscar gets slammed for team success, but to be fair, he played in the Russell-Celtic Dynasty years (as well as the Wilt-Philly era). But think about this. He was traded to the Bucks in 70-71, and they went 66-16 and won a dominating world title. In 71-72 they went 63-19. In 72-73 they went 60-22. And in his last season, they went 59-23, and lost a game seven in the Finals. He retired, and they dropped to 38-44, and missed the playoffs. Not all of it was Oscar, but clearly his departure had a major impact.

In terms of statistical success, it is not even close. So, yes, Oscar has a case. And for those that like quotes, I am sure I could find plenty which had Oscar with at least a GOAT argument.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]You tell me.

Using Dr. J's prime seasons in the ABA, and then he has a case over Bird.

Oscar gets slammed for team success, but to be fair, he played in the Russell-Celtic Dynasty years (as well as the Wilt-Philly era). But think about this. He was traded to the Bucks in 70-71, and they went 66-16 and won a dominating world title. In 71-72 they went 63-19. In 72-73 they went 60-22. And in his last season, they went 59-23, and lost a game seven in the Finals. He retired, and they dropped to 38-44, and missed the playoffs. Not all of it was Oscar, but clearly his departure had a major impact.

In terms of statistical success, it is not even close. So, yes, Oscar has a case. And for those that like quotes, I am sure I could find plenty which had Oscar with at least a GOAT argument.[/QUOTE]
I have Oscar in the discussion for GOAT offensive peak.

The thing about Doc is, I actually think he contributed a good deal of his value on the defensive end. Tremendous help defender, one of the best ever perhaps.

His G6 of the 76 Finals (against Bobby Jones) has to be one of the all-time performances on that stage, along with Russ in G7 of 62 and Magic in G6 of 81.

I do think coming into the NBA without a 3pt shot (meaning there were always two bigs in the paint, preventing the drive), and playing with black holes on those Sixers teams made life hell for him in what should've been his peak seasons (though he had that knee brace as well). Regardless, he still showed up in the playoffs, dominating on the big stage.

[QUOTE=fpliii]I have Oscar in the discussion for GOAT offensive peak.

The thing about Doc is, I actually think he contributed a good deal of his value on the defensive end. Tremendous help defender, one of the best ever perhaps.

His G6 of the 76 Finals (against Bobby Jones) has to be one of the all-time performances on that stage, along with Russ in G7 of 62 and Magic in G6 of 81.

I do think coming into the NBA without a 3pt shot (meaning there were always two bigs in the paint, preventing the drive), and playing with black holes on those Sixers teams made life hell for him in what should've been his peak seasons (though he had that knee brace as well). Regardless, he still showed up in the playoffs, dominating on the big stage.[/QUOTE]
Just looked up Doc's 76 finals...

1976 ABA Finals: [b]37.7 ppg, 14.2 rpg, 6.0 apg, 3.0 spg, 2.2 bpg, 59.0% FG, 78.6% FT[/b]

:eek: :bowdown:

And these Lebron kids want to put him over the great Doctor J when Lebron is the worst finals performer of a top 20 player alltime :oldlol:

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Great stuff, as always.

BTW, I get crushed by the Bird fans here, but in all honesty, could you rank Bird higher (if you had a GOAT list), in terms of carrer success, with solid criteria, over these players?

MJ
Wilt
Russell
Magic
KAJ
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron
Kobe[/QUOTE]


[B]Here you go:[/B]


[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT]:oldlol: :oldlol:
[B]
Bird's top5 with a top5 peak. All the explanations have been made and you've "ditched them" all the time :facepalm

You know what would be better? If you explain how Wilt is top8 and above

MJ
KAreem
Russell
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Duncan

Should be fun and almost impossible :oldlol: Most people have Bird in their top5 and Wilt out so good luck with that. (and you know it)[/B][/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]How about Bird, in the 1984 playoffs? Leading his team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT% (how ****ing crazy is that :eek:), with some epic performances raising his regular-season level - not even "only" maintaining it -, while the majority of his teammates were considerably underperforming, playing clearly below their standards (check the stats, watch the games, read the reports), Larry just willing that team to the title, doing more of the same in the Finals, leading them over a better team (Magic with a clearly better cast, Kareem as 1a too). Would've most likely been the same in 1985 though, had he didn't have an injured hand and elbow (fck those injuries though lmao, Wilt played with a broken fingernail :bowdown:), and again in 1987 if the team was somewhat close - not even that close to the same - to their 1986 level. Crazy that he was even better in 1986 :bowdown:
Shit, 3 titles as #1, 3 MVPS (only once not top3), 8 all-nba, ridiculous stats, ridiculous peak, ridiculous play, in 8 healthy years, actually maintaining or elevating in the playoffs more often than not, all of it in the GOAT most competitive era, turning a franchise completely around.. :bowdown: Wilt can't **** with that.

I guess you don't know nothing about that (or that ignorant dude you so love to quote, wtf lol).. If that was Wilt it would've been the GOAT post-season, with Bird I guess it counts as a choke. Stay mad.

And just one example out of many, all the while, on the other hand, Wilt was choking like a mother****er more often than not, pretty much always dropping below his regular-season standards, in the playoffs :roll: [/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Nearly doesn't count.

Robert Allen Cherry, journalist and author of the biography Wilt: Larger than Life accused Wilt of choking, because if "Chamberlain had come up big and put up a normal 30 point scoring night", L.A. would have probably won its first championship". (in game 6 of the 1969 Finals where Chamberlain only scored 8 points.

I can also quote some random shit.

Wilt's choking resume:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7610721#post7610721[/url]

Now that's something to be proud of :roll: , but let's compare him to LArry Legend, one of the greatest clutch performers and more often than not raised/maintained his level in the post-season.[/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow][B]1973 NBA Finals[/B]
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In the Game 5, Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

[B]1970 NBA Finals[/B]
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7, Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

[B]1969 NBA Finals[/B]
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in game 2. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

[B]1968 Divisional Finals[/B]
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

[B]1966 Divisional Finals[/B]
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-68 (41.2%)

[B]1965 Divisional Finals[/B]
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

[B]1964 NBA Finals[/B]
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

[B]1962 Divisional Finals[/B]
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Just looked up Doc's 76 finals...

1976 ABA Finals: [b]37.7 ppg, 14.2 rpg, 6.0 apg, 3.0 spg, 2.2 bpg, 59.0% FG, 78.6% FT[/b]

:eek: :bowdown:

And these Lebron kids want to put him over the great Doctor J when Lebron is the worst finals performer of a top 20 player alltime :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://noblecountygold.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/9-julius-erving-nba-style-gq1.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=fpliii][IMG]http://noblecountygold.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/9-julius-erving-nba-style-gq1.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Mah niggah

[QUOTE=fpliii]
There's also the story about the World Invitational Tournament, but this video does it better justice:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjYuKvJS55E[/url][/QUOTE]
Bird said what I've been saying the whole post. "Something about Magic made you want to rebound and make the extra pass." He was infectious and could feature players unlike any other player. Stockton and Isiah were great point guard but on those Olympic teams and all star teams you could see a drop off when they played. Magic was one of the few players that could make others around him better. Kareem was talking retirement before Magic joined the team. He stayed beyond his welcome a full 9 years later.

Scott and Worthy barely looked good and looked like they wanted to retire when Magic left. Worthy's shooting percentage immediately went down 50% points and his game totally plummeted within a year. He had a crazy effect on players and they definitely played a more joyous and refined game with Magic. No other player in any other sport rewarded players for good discipline and had his teammates aware, excited and a key part of the team.

[QUOTE=fpliii]Damn, I rate Bird way higher than most. Maybe I need to rewatch some tape.[/QUOTE]

Whenever I rewatch some of Bird tapes, I realize how good he is in terms of off the ball movement and being able to get a shot off a times. I always thought he was a bit overrated as a shooter. Like MJ seemed to be a better mid range shooter than Bird. By the 92 season, all MJ did was shoot jumpers it seems Nobody could stop it because how high he jumped and how quick he was and he constantly shot 50%. I probably need to watch more tapes of Bird tho.

It would interesting somebody would check this, but I swore I saw Magic Johnson in 84 Finals to hit more jumpers than Bird in the entire series. Magic was more open due to the Celtics letting him taking it and the Celts doubling Kareem. Bird seemed to miss the a bunch of midrange shots, but made his points inside the paint from rebounds or post. Bird seemed to fall in love with the jumper when he should've took it inside more, while Magic was more selective at it.

Even in the 87 Finals, Bird was much better at scoring the paint and it seems most of his misses were anything outside the paint. But I have rewatch it again.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Bird said what I've been saying the whole post. "Something about Magic made you want to rebound and make the extra pass." He was infectious and could feature players unlike any other player. Stockton and Isiah were great point guard but on those Olympic teams and all star teams you could see a drop off when they played. Magic was one of the few players that could make others around him better. Kareem was talking retirement before Magic joined the team. He stayed beyond his welcome a full 9 years later.

Scott and Worthy barely looked good and looked like they wanted to retire when Magic left. Worthy's shooting percentage immediately went down 50% points and his game totally plummeted within a year. He had a crazy effect on players and they definitely played a more joyous and refined game with Magic. No other player in any other sport rewarded players for good discipline and had his teammates aware, excited and part of the team.[/QUOTE]

[B]Again, proving you don't know shit.

Scott played just about the same immediately after Magic's retirement and Worthy injured his ankle in the 1991 playoffs then in 1992 he severely injured his knee and needed season-ending surgery, he was never the same after all of that.

Now, am I saying Magic didn't make teammates better? **** no, he was one of the very best at that, but don't take it tooo far, and don't post lies.[/B]

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Here you go:[/B][/QUOTE]

All already handled and clearly debunked. Thanks for trying though.

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=323753&page=4[/url]

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Bird said what I've been saying the whole post. "Something about Magic made you want to rebound and make the extra pass." He was infectious and could feature players unlike any other player. Stockton and Isiah were great point guard but on those Olympic teams and all star teams you could see a drop off when they played. Magic was one of the few players that could make others around him better. Kareem was talking retirement before Magic joined the team. He stayed beyond his welcome a full 9 years later.

Scott and Worthy barely looked good and looked like they wanted to retire when Magic left. Worthy's shooting percentage immediately went down 50% points and his game totally plummeted within a year. He had a crazy effect on players and they definitely played a more joyous and refined game with Magic. No other player in any other sport rewarded players for good discipline and had his teammates aware, excited and a key part of the team.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, didn't Worthy battle a bunch of injuries? He was already injured in 91, and then more injured in the Finals. In 92 he got injured again. He was banged up after that to perform as good. But I think Magic did give him a bunch of easy shots. Especially in the fastbreak.

[QUOTE=Micku]Whenever I rewatch some of Bird tapes, I realize how good he is in terms of off the ball movement and being able to get a shot off a times. I always thought he was a bit overrated as a shooter. Like MJ seemed to be a better mid range shooter than Bird. By the 92 season, all MJ did was shoot jumpers it seems Nobody could stop it because how high he jumped and how quick he was and he constantly shot 50%. I probably need to watch more tapes of Bird tho.

It would interesting somebody would check this, but I swore I saw Magic Johnson in 84 Finals to hit more jumpers than Bird in the entire series. Magic was more open due to the Celtics letting him taking it and the Celts doubling Kareem. Bird seemed to miss the a bunch of midrange shots, but made his points inside the paint from rebounds or post. Bird seemed to fall in love with the jumper when he should've took it inside more, while Magic was more selective at it.

Even in the 87 Finals, Bird was much better at scoring the paint and it seems most of his misses were anything outside the paint. But I have rewatch it again.[/QUOTE]

[B]Phila should do Bird's shotchart, I'm telling you.

If anything, imo, Bird's the GOAT overall shooter, just because he could score and bang inside, also great at post-up, doesn't mean he wasn't also an amazing shooter, that's from everywhere else and in any way (3pters too obviously).
I've watched countless of Bird's games and always seemed "easily" a 50% shooter from mid-range, playing ways and stats suggest the same more than enough.

From watching through the years, what's improved mostly over his career (regarding scoring) was his post-game and shot-selection, in his early years he settled more for long range jumpers and went inside and attacked the rim a bit less than after it, took more ill-advised 3's (of course his shooting improved and still had a pretty good shot-selection before). Always great without the ball but always managed to improve on that, just terrific to see.

What you've said about the 84 Finals is somewhat true though. Magic had and took plenty of mid-range shots, Celtics were giving him the shot since he wasn't an established reliable shooter and they had to double Kareem. And Bird was doing more damage on the inside yea, also because he was smart, that was the thing to do with Cooper on him.[/B]

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Phila should do Bird's shotchart, I'm telling you.

If anything, imo, Bird's the GOAT overall shooter, just because he could score and bang inside, also great at post-up, doesn't mean he wasn't also an amazing shooter, that's from everywhere else and in any way (3pters too obviously).
I've watched countless of Bird's games and always seemed "easily" a 50% shooter from mid-range, playing ways and stats suggest the same more than enough.

From watching through the years, what's improved mostly over his career (regarding scoring) was his post-game and shot-selection, in his early years he settled more for long range jumpers and went inside and attacked the rim a bit less than after it, took more ill-advised 3's (of course his shooting improved and still had a pretty good shot-selection before). Always great without the ball but always managed to improve on that, just terrific to see.[/B][/QUOTE]

And yet, overall he had a less-than-average career playoff FG%, and was way below the league norms in FG% (and especially eFG%'s) in his Finals.

GOAT shooter my a$$.

GOAT choker my son.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]And yet, overall he had a less-than-average career playoff FG%, and was way below the league norms in FG% (and especially eFG%'s) in his Finals.

GOAT shooter my a$$.

GOAT choker my son.[/QUOTE]

[B]:roll: :roll: Shit you so mad right now.

We ain't talking about Wilt here, take that to the Wilt's choking resume thread.[/B]

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Phila should do Bird's shotchart, I'm telling you.

If anything, imo, Bird's the GOAT overall shooter, just because he could score and bang inside, also great at post-up, doesn't mean he wasn't also an amazing shooter, that's from everywhere else and in any way (3pters too obviously).
I've watched countless of Bird's games and always seemed "easily" a 50% shooter from mid-range, playing ways and stats suggest the same more than enough.

From watching through the years, what's improved mostly over his career (regarding scoring) was his post-game and shot-selection, in his early years he settled more for long range jumpers and went inside and attacked the rim a bit less than after it, took more ill-advised 3's (of course his shooting improved and still had a pretty good shot-selection before). Always great without the ball but always managed to improve on that, just terrific to see.

What you've said about the 84 Finals is somewhat true though. Magic had and took plenty of mid-range shots, Celtics were giving him the shot since he wasn't an established reliable shooter and they had to double Kareem. And Bird was doing more damage on the inside yea, also because he was smart, that was the thing to do with Cooper on him.[/B][/QUOTE]

You're right, lol. Phila or somebody needs to do a shot chart on the 84 Finals. Magic didn't seem to miss anything jumpers while Bird missed a lot, but he did his damage inside. I'm curious in Bird percentage in that finals and in one of his seasons.

Imo, Bird in 84 was pretty awesome because how much he attacked. Him battling the boards against Kareem was amazing to watch. Basically willed the team to keep in the games. When I watched it, the Lakers were obviously the better team. They had the better 2nd and 3rd option and Kareem was right up there with Bird. They shot themselves in the foot, but Bird gave them a lot of chances for the Celtics to keep them in the game. And it's always a pleasure to watch Magic control the game. I said this before but he probably is the smartest shot taker I ever seen play. And it's amazing how he and Bird could control the pace of the game without taking a shot sometimes.

Amazing finals. One of my favorites.

/praise

Anyway, Bird in 86 was pretty unstoppable. I would imagine he wouldn't have a weakness in the shot chart. I need to watch more games of his prior to 84 tho. I stared, but didn't finish the 76ers vs Celtics series in 81. I watched a few in games of his rookie year in 80. It was amazing how skilled he was as rookie, especially off the ball and his footwork even back then.

We need a shot chart to see how good Bird was with the midrange. I know guys like Worthy and Dr. J had better FG%, but they weren't better shooters, but better finishers. Like Dr. J never develop a smooth jumper because he could just attack the basket. Bird shot a lower percentage, but he could attack the basket and shoot it in your face. Although I don't know if he is better than MJ with the midrange or not. As I said, it just seem like MJ was better imo. Bird could be better tho. Especially at his peak. We don't know the percentage tho.

Except past prime MJ in 97 and 98. He shot 49% midrange (shorten 3pt line) and 43% in 98 in the regular season. I'm curious if Bird had better numbers than that.

[QUOTE=Micku]Whenever I rewatch some of Bird tapes, I realize how good he is in terms of off the ball movement and being able to get a shot off a times. I always thought he was a bit overrated as a shooter. Like MJ seemed to be a better mid range shooter than Bird. By the 92 season, all MJ did was shoot jumpers it seems Nobody could stop it because how high he jumped and how quick he was and he constantly shot 50%. I probably need to watch more tapes of Bird tho.

It would interesting somebody would check this, but I swore I saw Magic Johnson in 84 Finals to hit more jumpers than Bird in the entire series. Magic was more open due to the Celtics letting him taking it and the Celts doubling Kareem. Bird seemed to miss the a bunch of midrange shots, but made his points inside the paint from rebounds or post. Bird seemed to fall in love with the jumper when he should've took it inside more, while Magic was more selective at it.

Even in the 87 Finals, Bird was much better at scoring the paint and it seems most of his misses were anything outside the paint. But I have rewatch it again.[/QUOTE]

I remember certain situations but I can't recall much from '84. In general Magic had the best judgement of when to shoot, thread the needle, or make the extra pass. Most of the time Magic would rather feature other players and only take a shot as the defense allowed it. Except late in the game he would push for his shot. Magic had better judgment than any player ever. His mental game to gauge where to engage, take risk, go inside, or take the open shot was pristine. Magic knew how to dish a steady diet of all things and keep his teammates happy.

Bird had more comfortable long range than Jordan. Jordan knew his limitations and rarely seemed to go for three pointers unless very hot. Bird usually did the whole gamut of scoring but as the series would get longer he would take more jumpers. Cooper was lighter in weight but would fight like crazy to deny the entry pass in the deeper post. Bird's shot wasn't unlike any other shooter's, it is subject to good defense, pressure and fatigue. Ray Allen, Reggie Miller or Dirk's shot never stayed on course through a complete playoff run either. Bird had a superior post game than they did tho. However, like Magic perhaps, he might have been en-crouching on McHale's and Parrish's ground and decided not to go there.

[QUOTE=Micku]You're right, lol. Phila or somebody needs to do a shot chart on the 84 Finals. Magic didn't seem to miss anything jumpers while Bird missed a lot, but he did his damage inside. I'm curious in Bird percentage in that finals and in one of his seasons.

Imo, Bird in 84 was pretty awesome because how much he attacked. Him battling the boards against Kareem was amazing to watch. Basically willed the team to keep in the games. When I watched it, the Lakers were obviously the better team. They had the better 2nd and 3rd option and Kareem was right up there with Bird. They shot themselves in the foot, but Bird gave them a lot of chances for the Celtics to keep them in the game. And it's always a pleasure to watch Magic control the game. I said this before but he probably is the smartest shot taker I ever seen play. And it's amazing how he and Bird could control the pace of the game without taking a shot sometimes.

Amazing finals. One of my favorites.

/praise

Anyway, Bird in 86 was pretty unstoppable. I would imagine he wouldn't have a weakness in the shot chart. I need to watch more games of his prior to 84 tho. I stared, but didn't finish the 76ers vs Celtics series in 81. I watched a few in games of his rookie year in 80. It was amazing how skilled he was as rookie, especially off the ball and his footwork even back then.

We need a shot chart to see how good Bird was with the midrange. I know guys like Worthy and Dr. J had better FG%, but they weren't better shooters, but better finishers. Like Dr. J never develop a smooth jumper because he could just attack the basket. Bird shot a lower percentage, but he could attack the basket and shoot it in your face. Although I don't know if he is better than MJ with the midrange or not. As I said, it just seem like MJ was better imo. Bird could be better tho. Especially at his peak. We don't know the percentage tho.

Except past prime MJ in 97 and 98. He shot 49% midrange (shorten 3pt line) and 43% in 98 in the regular season. I'm curious if Bird had better numbers than that.[/QUOTE]

[B]Good post.

Yea I would love to see Bird's short-chart at his peak, even asked Phila about it at some point.

From watching him, at his best, most likely he was shooting 50% from mid or very very close.. plus he posted-up, banged and scored inside, even attacked the rim scoring from close but was always more of a jump-shooter, at his best he was shooting 50+% FG and 40+ 3P (both RS and PS) and he was taking like 3 3's per game, and I doubt that he was scoring over 70% at the rim. I would say something like 50% or really really close from mid, over 50% in the paint, and 60 percentile at the rim, taking more shots from mid but not that much less inside because he kept it all-around, also over 40% from 3 while taking around 3 (that's a give though).

I most definitely think that, at both their best from there, Bird was better from mid-range than Jordan.[/B]

[QUOTE=Micku]To be fair, didn't Worthy battle a bunch of injuries? He was already injured in 91, and then more injured in the Finals. In 92 he got injured again. He was banged up after that to perform as good. But I think Magic did give him a bunch of easy shots. Especially in the fastbreak.[/QUOTE]
Yeah he was banged up some but in '92 he played more minutes per game than he ever did and shot as much as he did the year before, rebounded and block shots as good or better than the year before (rebounding and blocking shots are the best indicators of health). So when he played in '92 he was himself. After that he seemingly never got it back together.

Scott wasn't injured and was still in his prime.

[QUOTE=Micku]
We need a shot chart to see how good Bird was with the midrange. I know guys like Worthy and Dr. J had better FG%, but they weren't better shooters, but better finishers. Like Dr. J never develop a smooth jumper because he could just attack the basket. Bird shot a lower percentage, but he could attack the basket and shoot it in your face. Although I don't know if he is better than MJ with the midrange or not. As I said, it just seem like MJ was better imo. Bird could be better tho. Especially at his peak. We don't know the percentage tho.

Except past prime MJ in 97 and 98. He shot 49% midrange (shorten 3pt line) and 43% in 98 in the regular season. I'm curious if Bird had better numbers than that.[/QUOTE]

Bird was a better midrange shooter than Dr. J and Worthy without question. The both of them had great first steps and were rarely contested but still missed more than Bird did. Before the second threepeat, I felt Bird was a better midrange shooter than MJ except in fourth quarters when MJ seemed never to miss if he was playing your team. In the last three peat Jordan's midrange was one of the best ever. It seemed more dependable than Shaq's deep post game if it was a close game.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]I remember certain situations but I can't recall much from '84. In general Magic had the best judgement of when to shoot, thread the needle, or make the extra pass. Most of the time Magic would rather feature other players and only take a shot as the defense allowed it. Except late in the game he would push for his shot. Magic had better judgment than any player ever. His mental game to gauge where to engage, take risk, go inside, or take the open shot was pristine. Magic knew how to dish a steady diet of all things and keep his teammates happy.

Bird had more comfortable long range than Jordan. Jordan knew his limitations and rarely seemed to go for three pointers unless very hot. Bird usually did the whole gamut of scoring but as the series would get longer he would take more jumpers. Cooper was lighter in weight but would fight like crazy to deny the entry pass in the deeper post. Bird's shot wasn't unlike any other shooter's, it is subject to good defense, pressure and fatigue. Ray Allen, Reggie Miller or Dirk's shot never stayed on course through a complete playoff run either. Bird had a superior post game than they did tho. However, like Magic perhaps, he might have been en-crouching on McHale's and Parrish's ground and decided not to go there.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. I agree with you with Magic. Whenever I watched him, I was amazed in how much control he would have in the game. Like when to pass, when to drive, when to shoot (one of the best shot selection player I've seen).

And I would love to see a shot chart with peak Bird. MJ did seem to know his limits, and perfected his skills with his shot selection. When I first saw a few tapes of his play in the early 90s, I was amazed at how many jumpers he would take because I always thought of him as driver first. In 92 it seemed almost all of his shots were mid range jumpers and he shot 50%.

And it's interesting that you said that MJ secondpeat midrange was one of the best ever, because I thought he was a bit better during the first threepeat. But that's just the eye test, so I might be wrong at it.

From what I watched of Bird, he had more range definitely. And in 86 he was threat everywhere on the floor and had great offensive versatility. Catch and shoot, post up, and could drive. But all of this talk makes me want a shot chart even more to compare. I'm interested to see how good was Bird as a finisher as well. Like SHAQisGOAT said, I would say the percentage would be about 50% from the paint and 60% of the rim. I don't know about midrange. Could be close to or around 50% there too at his peak.

[QUOTE=Micku]
And I would love to see a shot chart with peak Bird. MJ did seem to know his limits, and perfected his skills with his shot selection. When I first saw a few tapes of his play in the early 90s, I was amazed at how many jumpers he would take because I always thought of him as driver first. In 92 it seemed almost all of his shots were mid range jumpers and he shot 50%.

And it's interesting that you said that MJ secondpeat midrange was one of the best ever, because I thought he was a bit better during the first threepeat. But that's just the eye test, so I might be wrong at it.

From what I watched of Bird, he had more range definitely. And in 86 he was threat everywhere on the floor and had great offensive versatility. Catch and shoot, post up, and could drive. But all of this talk makes me want a shot chart even more to compare. I'm interested to see how good was Bird as a finisher as well. Like SHAQisGOAT said, I would say the percentage would be about 50% from the paint and 60% of the rim. I don't know about midrange. Could be close to or around 50% there too at his peak.[/QUOTE]

Well the Knicks and Detroit were bombing on Jordan when he drove so while he did buff up, he also knew he couldn't keep going down the middle. So in '92 he did take a lot of jumpers. But he was driving like crazy the first couple of years. I never seen a player since do as many reverse lay ups as Jordan did the first three or four years. People don't know the energy it takes to drive all year long (AI was the only guy like Jordan, and Derrick Rose is the only one in this generation to exhibit something close to them). Jordan wasn't super comfortable with jumpers during the first ring. But he came back with confidence the second year but still drove a lot in pressure situations. By 92 he was taking a lot of jumpers. But Jordan was super efficient for the second threepeat and took the path of least resistance.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Well the Knicks and Detroit were bombing on Jordan when he drove so while he did buff up, he also knew he couldn't keep going down the middle. So in '92 he did take a lot of jumpers. But he was driving like crazy the first couple of years. I never seen a player since do as many reverse lay ups as Jordan did the first three or four years. People don't know the energy it takes to drive all year long (AI was the only guy like Jordan, and Derrick Rose is the only one in this generation to exhibit something close to them). Jordan wasn't super comfortable with jumpers during the first ring. But he came back with confidence the second year but still drove a lot in pressure situations. By 92 he was taking a lot of jumpers. But Jordan was super efficient for the second threepeat and took the path of least resistance.[/QUOTE]
It's a myth that MJ wasn't a good shooter early on. Sure, he hadn't perfected his fadeaway, but his midrange game was already sublime by the 89-90 season. In his first threepeat you basically have MJ at the total peak of his powers. He was great during the second threepeat as well, but you could see that he had lost some explosiveness, and his fadeaway jumper was a natural counter to that. But he wasn't as effective anymore, which is clearly evident if you compare his playoffs stats from 91-93 to 96-98. The first threepeat MJ edges second threepeat MJ in every possible way.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I have said it before, but I will reiterate it now, you simply can't look at Magic's scoring, and hold it against him. He was certainly capable of 30+ point games anytime he wanted them. Again, he had the TWO highest scoring games in the Bird-Magic H2H.

How about this: You already are aware of Magic, in his ROOKIE season, putting up that incredible clinching game six in the Finals (42 pts, 15 rebs, 7 ast, 14-23 from the floor, and 14-14 from the line.) Again, in his ROOKIE season. In his LAST season, in 90-91, and in theseries clinching first round game against Hakeem's Rockets, he hung a 38 point, 6 reb, 7 ast, 14-20 FG/FGA, 9-9 FT/FTA game.

It was EVERYTHING that Magic brought to the table that set him apart. And I mean everything. He made his teammates much more efficient. He kept them happy. He made players like Byron Scott into 20 ppg scorers. Hell, he took Michael Cooper, and made him into one of the best three point shooters of his era. And KAJ was certainly a huge beneficiary. He had staggering FG%'s in the 80's. And, then look at Magic's teammates after he retired.

He could dominate games even without scoring in double figures. He forced the pace in his career. He made teammates better. He was super clutch. He was highly efficient. His IMPACT went FAR beyond just scoring. But again, he could have scored MUCH more in his career, had he been tasked to do so.[/QUOTE]To say that Magic was super clutch is certainly stretching it, since his failures come Playoff time in the mid 80s are pretty well documented. And I have a very hard time believing that Magic could score 30 points at will. He simply didn't have that type of scoring capacity on a consistent basis. Bird was the better player of the two until 86-87 when you could say that Magic finally eclipsed him.

[QUOTE=navy]Why do people say Bird was better than Magic?[/QUOTE]

Because they saw them both play.

great thread

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I have said it before, but I will reiterate it now, you simply can't look at Magic's scoring, and hold it against him. He was certainly capable of 30+ point games anytime he wanted them. Again, he had the TWO highest scoring games in the Bird-Magic H2H.

How about this: You already are aware of Magic, in his ROOKIE season, putting up that incredible clinching game six in the Finals (42 pts, 15 rebs, 7 ast, 14-23 from the floor, and 14-14 from the line.) Again, in his ROOKIE season. In his LAST season, in 90-91, and in theseries clinching first round game against Hakeem's Rockets, he hung a 38 point, 6 reb, 7 ast, 14-20 FG/FGA, 9-9 FT/FTA game.

It was EVERYTHING that Magic brought to the table that set him apart. And I mean everything. He made his teammates much more efficient. He kept them happy. He made players like Byron Scott into 20 ppg scorers. Hell, he took Michael Cooper, and made him into one of the best three point shooters of his era. And KAJ was certainly a huge beneficiary. He had staggering FG%'s in the 80's. And, then look at Magic's teammates after he retired.

[B]He could dominate games even without scoring in double figures.[/B] He forced the pace in his career. He made teammates better. He was super clutch. He was highly efficient. His IMPACT went FAR beyond just scoring. But again, he could have scored MUCH more in his career, had he been tasked to do so.[/QUOTE]
Solid post as usual.

Magic was the best at dominating a game without scoring. Magic could have scored at least 8 more points per game on fast breaks alone but he felt the need to get others involved unlike any other player. And another 4 ppg if he didn't feature other players. Magic could back anybody down but he deferred to Kareem. Magic was either too big or too quick for every body.

Jason Kidd was another that could dominate without stats and he was phenomenal with it. Kidd took a last place team 26 wins, replaced the most prolific point guard (24ppg and 8 assist) in the league, and took that exact same team to the finals two years in a row. Kidd only averaged 15ppg and 10 assist and 7.3 rebounds. Nobody on the team averaged 16ppg or got 8 rebounds per game or made the all defensive team outside of Kidd. [SIZE="4"][B]This is why you can't do the points mean everything argument on guys that have control of the game.
[/B][/SIZE]

Magic could morph into all types of positions. When Rodman was offensive rebounding like crazy on the Lakers Magic said let me me get him. And Rodman was controlled. When Kareem's 34 ppg was missing Magic added 8 more points to it and rebounded like crazy. Worthy couldn't play, Magic took up post scoring and fast break load. 16 assist 12 rebounds 8 points dominant game. 12 assist 10 rebounds 8 points dominant game. Lakers as a franchise were not winners, Magic converted minuses into pluses all the time. Could turn nothing into something all the time. He was very different and more intriguing to watch than even Jordan.

magic was better than bird but it is really close:coleman: