Why did the bulls still win 55 games without jordan?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Pippen helped Jordans game evolve as well

Here's an excerpt from an interview with Phil Jackson


Jordan himself stated that Pippen made him a better player

[B]"I know he makes me a better player. Unfortunately, it may take awhile, after we both retire, for people to realize just how good Scottie Pippen really was." -[/B]

This crazy notion that Pippen was made by Jordan needs to die.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Jordan also benefit from pippen in their 2nd 3peat, because MJ got rusty and he's getting old, Pippen already a matured player and fully developed in 94-95 and that pippen help Jordan enhance and remake his game no doubt that's also the reason why MJ is so refine, BUT still MJ made pippen from his skinny bench warmer years up to his first ring.

[QUOTE=Droid101]Wow, someone who clearly didn't watch the playoffs that year. Pip and Chuck went crazy. Hakeem averaged 13 PPG in the playoffs. He was terrible.

You're a joke of a person.

In the third game of that series Pip had 37-13-4 and Chuck had 30-23-5. Hakeem had 5 points.[/QUOTE]

So the **** what? That's not my point. I couldn't careless if they both score 100ppg 100rpg that series. The fact is that they still lost 1st Round and the pippen that they say impact the bulls couldn't even save the rockets no matter what stat he produce

[QUOTE=TheMarkMadsen]Magic isn't better than Jordan and [B]neither is Wilt [SIZE="4"]and it's not even close[/SIZE][/B].[/QUOTE]

What makes Jordan better than Stilt? Chamberlain's the better scorer, passer, defender, rebounder. Wilt has 56 NBA single-season records to Jordan's 4. Wilt nearly QUADRUPLED the number of 50 point games Jordan had in his career. Wilt led the league in assists, fg%, minutes and rebounds 29 times to Jordan's Zero. He also led the league in assists one year, averaging 8.6 apg. Jordan never led the league in apg (and mind you, this is when assists were easier to accumulate for Jordan). He owns 6 of the 9 70+ point games in history - Jordan has zero. He topped Jordan's best scoring season three times and Wilt's best scoring season is 13 ppg higher than Jordan's.

Player top 6 prime years averages:
Michael Jordan(1986-1987 season to 1991-1992 season)
33.3ppg, 6.3rpg, 6.1apg, 52.2%FG, 29.6%3PT, 84.7%FT

Wilt Chamberlain(1959-1960 season to 1964-1965 season)
40.6ppg, 24.9rpg, 3.1apg, 50.7%FG, 55.3%FT

And at his peak, he averaged about 24/24/9, and took out the stacked Boston team, with a strong GOAT candidate leading it, Jordan has nothing on that.

[QUOTE=MadSolar]Yea the Bulls with MJ were UNBEATABLE in the 90's. That 1996 Bulls team went 72-10 GOAT Team.


Is that supposed to hurt MJ? Hell yea they'd spank this heat team. MJ, Pippen, Rodman > LBJ, Wade, Bosh[/QUOTE]
They lost in 95 with Jordan.

[QUOTE=hadAudio One]What makes Jordan better than Stilt? Chamberlain's the better scorer, passer, defender, rebounder. Wilt has 56 NBA single-season records to Jordan's 4. Wilt nearly QUADRUPLED the number of 50 point games Jordan had in his career. Wilt led the league in assists, fg%, minutes and rebounds 29 times to Jordan's Zero. He also led the league in assists one year, averaging 8.6 apg. Jordan never led the league in apg (and mind you, this is when assists were easier to accumulate for Jordan). He owns 6 of the 9 70+ point games in history - Jordan has zero. He topped Jordan's best scoring season three times and Wilt's best scoring season is 13 ppg higher than Jordan's.

Player top 6 prime years averages:
Michael Jordan(1986-1987 season to 1991-1992 season)
33.3ppg, 6.3rpg, 6.1apg, 52.2%FG, 29.6%3PT, 84.7%FT

Wilt Chamberlain(1959-1960 season to 1964-1965 season)
40.6ppg, 24.9rpg, 3.1apg, 50.7%FG, 55.3%FT

jordan has the highest ppg average in nba history has more rings and never lost in the finals. there are legitimate candidates vs jordan but wilts not one of them

And at his peak, he averaged about 24/24/9, and took out the stacked Boston team, with a strong GOAT candidate leading it, Jordan has nothing on that.[/QUOTE]

jordan averaged more points has more rings and never lost in the finals.

[QUOTE=PsychoBe]jordan averaged more points has more rings and never lost in the finals.[/QUOTE]

Oh please, those padded-stats must look nice, getting his ass handed to him in the first round for 3 straight years, and another 2nd round exit. 1-9 playoff record w/o Pippen, and missed the playoffs more often. The teams he beat wouldn't even make the top-20 teams of all-time. Chamberlain consistenly got his teams further in the post-season, and spent half his career in the Finals, can Jordan say that?

Russell
Thurmond
Alcindor
Lovellette
Reed
Gilmore
Cowens
Heinsohn
Lanier
Unseld

Who was Jordan's competition, Drexler? :lol

Everybody knows Chicago only started winning because of Father Time. Stilt took out his comtemporary in his prime, in a strong era, can't say the same for Mike

And can anyone find me evidence of Wilt quitting in a game like Jordan did against Detroit in 89? Game 5, Doug Collins complained that Mike was ball-hogging, so he mails it in that game, look it up. Always hear how Pippen quit on a play, how Kobe quit in a half, and how Wilt chokes, but this ****** quits on an entire GAME! :roll:

[QUOTE=Audio One]What makes Jordan better than Stilt? Chamberlain's the better scorer, passer, defender, rebounder. Wilt has 56 NBA single-season records to Jordan's 4. Wilt nearly QUADRUPLED the number of 50 point games Jordan had in his career. Wilt led the league in assists, fg%, minutes and rebounds 29 times to Jordan's Zero. He also led the league in assists one year, averaging 8.6 apg. Jordan never led the league in apg (and mind you, this is when assists were easier to accumulate for Jordan). He owns 6 of the 9 70+ point games in history - Jordan has zero. He topped Jordan's best scoring season three times and Wilt's best scoring season is 13 ppg higher than Jordan's.

Player top 6 prime years averages:
Michael Jordan(1986-1987 season to 1991-1992 season)
33.3ppg, 6.3rpg, 6.1apg, 52.2%FG, 29.6%3PT, 84.7%FT

Wilt Chamberlain(1959-1960 season to 1964-1965 season)
40.6ppg, 24.9rpg, 3.1apg, 50.7%FG, 55.3%FT

And at his peak, he averaged about 24/24/9, and took out the stacked Boston team, with a strong GOAT candidate leading it, Jordan has nothing on that.[/QUOTE]
wow u just went in hard on them:bowdown: :bowdown: :applause:

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]It's very simple for the un-educated:

The 1994 Bulls sans MJ were 3x deep worth of championship experience. Were doubted from the start without Jordan, so the entire roster played with a chip on their shoulder to prove their value without Mike. Little brother syndrome. They added Kukoc off the bench to give added firepower. Pippen made the leap to his peak value.

That's why they won 55 games, and then got booted in the 2nd round. [B]Why does everyone act like that is such a miraculous feat? [/B]The difference between the Bulls w/o Jordan is 2nd round knock out, and with him they were breaking records winning consecutive three peats, the most dominating dynasty of the modern post Bill Russell era?

Umm, ok. You got us, Jordan didn't mean very much to the Bulls success. It was all the role players, and Scottie Pippen !!![/QUOTE]
Because far too many posters act as if the Bulls were Jordan and a bunch of mediocre players. If posters would stop trying so hard to belittle his teammates, then this wouldn't come up.

Think about it. How many teams have been that successful without their best player? And no legitimate replacement for him.

It's very simple for the un-educated:

The 1994 Bulls sans MJ were 3x years deep worth of winning championship experience. Were doubted from the start without Jordan, so the entire roster played with a chip on their shoulder to prove their value without Mike. Little brother syndrome. They added Kukoc off the bench to give added firepower. Pippen made the leap to his peak value.

That's why they won 55 games, and then got booted in the 2nd round. Why does everyone act like that is such a miraculous feat? The difference between the Bulls w/o Jordan is 2nd round knock out, and with him they were breaking records winning consecutive three peats, the most dominating dynasty of the modern post Bill Russell era?

Umm, ok. You got us, Jordan didn't mean very much to the Bulls success. It was all the role players, and Scottie Pippen !!!

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Because far too many posters act as if the Bulls were Jordan and a bunch of mediocre players. If posters would stop trying so hard to belittle his teammates, then this wouldn't come up.

Think about it. How many teams have been that successful without their best player? And no legitimate replacement for him.[/QUOTE]

People recognize the 1992 and 1996 Bulls as two of the most dominant teams to ever play....in any sport. TEAMS.

Without Jordan, those Bulls would be your ordinary run-in-the-mill playoff squad. With Jordan, as Swish eloquently put it, they're breaking records and winning championships.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]
Think about it. How many teams have been that successful without their best player? And no legitimate replacement for him.[/QUOTE]
What's so successful about winning 55 games and losing in the 2nd round?

A bunch of decent role players, Kukoc off the bench, and a peak Scottie Pippen TOTALLY motivated by the naysayers thinking they'd miss the playoffs with the GOAT achieved the un-thinkable?

No one ever said MJ played with total scrubs like he was doing pre 1990.

Certain factions: Kobe stans, and LeBron stans make it out to sound like the '94 Bulls won a championship w/o Jordan. They lose Horace Grant the next season (Pippen's Scottie Pippen) and before Jordan came back they were STRUGGLING to maintain a .500 record.

Was '94 Horace Grant worth 13 wins from the Bulls being barely .500 without him?

Jesus, Yao Ming and Ron Artest went to the second round and lost in 7 games too. Chris Paul took the Hornets to the second round and lost. So CP3 = Pippen in your book?

[QUOTE=Audio One]And can anyone find me evidence of Wilt quitting in a game like Jordan did against Cleveland inApparently, his tea? Game 5, Doug Collins complained that Mike was ball-hogging, so he mails it in that game, look it up. Always hear how Pippen quit on a play, how Kobe quit in a half, and how Wilt chokes, but this ****** quits on an entire GAME! :roll:[/QUOTE]
If I remember correct, there was a playoff game that Wilt reportedly faked an injury and said he couldn't play. Apparently, his team was losing. Wilt took himself out. His team rallied together and got back in the game. The Chamberlain wanted to come back in. Even Bill Russell publicly called him out on it. As well as his coach

[QUOTE=tragicbronson]1993 Knicks Bulls series game 5 was rigged.[/QUOTE]

Even if its rigged, if MJ play that series, they would've won just like the next season. LOL

Do you think they would still lost if MJ play that time?

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMighTy]People recognize the 1992 and 1996 Bulls as two of the most dominant teams to ever play....in any sport. TEAMS.

Without Jordan, those Bulls would be your ordinary run-in-the-mill playoff squad. With Jordan, as Swish eloquently put it, they're breaking records and winning championships.[/QUOTE]
I concur. I just don't get the constant bashing Jordan's teammates have to endure by his fans.

If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, and only go by what some of these posters say, I'd be led to believe the Bulls were at best a 500 team that would barely make the playoffs without Jordan. That's just not the case. And we don't have to speculate, WE SAW IT UNFOLD.

[QUOTE=SamuraiSWISH]What's so successful about winning 55 games and losing in the 2nd round?

A bunch of decent role players, Kukoc off the bench, and a peak Scottie Pippen TOTALLY motivated by the naysayers thinking they'd miss the playoffs with the GOAT achieved the un-thinkable?

No one ever said MJ played with total scrubs like he was doing pre 1990.

Certain factions: Kobe stans, and LeBron stans make it out to sound like the '94 Bulls won a championship w/o Jordan.[B]They lose Horace Grant the next season (Pippen's Scottie Pippen) and before Jordan came back they were STRUGGLING to maintain a .500 record. [/B]

Was '94 Horace Grant worth 13 wins from the Bulls being barely .500 without him?

Jesus, Yao Ming and Ron Artest went to the second round and lost in 7 games too. Chris Paul took the Hornets to the second round and lost. So CP3 = Pippen in your book?[/QUOTE]
But they didn't just lose Grant Swoosh. They lost Williams, King, Cartwright, and Grant. Then factor that Longley was hurt most of the year. They literally lost their whole interior defense.

They had Greg Foster, Dickey Simpkins, Larry Krystowiak, and Corie Blount as their bigman rotation.

I mean consider this. The 95 Bulls with Jordan won at a pace that extrapolated over a regular season would've netted 63 games. And got eliminated in the second round in six games.

The 94 Bulls won 55 games with Scotte Pippen missing ten. Then got eliminated in the second round in seven games.

That team was just great.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]If I remember correct, there was a playoff game that Wilt reportedly faked an injury and said he couldn't play. Apparently, his team was losing. Wilt took himself out. His team rallied together and got back in the game. The Chamberlain wanted to come back in. Even Bill Russell publicly called him out on it. As well as his coach[/QUOTE]

Game 7 of the '69 Finals, yes Chamberlain was pulled for his knee, so he could rest it. Wilt wanted to come back in, yet Butch Van Brenda refused to let him back in. It's well known that Van Brenda cost LA the title that year with the move, as he was subsequently FIRED after that series.

And Russell's comment can be taken either way. The relationship between those two was strained at an all-time high by that point, and of course they wouldn't speak for YEARS afterwards.[U] He did of course admit he was wrong [/U]in the interview with Costas and Chamberlain sitting right next to him almost 30 years later

Because Lebron sucks.

It was a shitty season. Winning 5 more games than Golden State Warriors isn't much of an achievement. :confusedshrug:

The reason why is because u had an HOF coach, an HOFer in Pippen, an All Star PF in Grant, a great offensive scheme, and great defense. Kukoc also added a lot too. Pippen could fill so many holes for your team that it made life easier. From there u had an array of shooters and defenders who knew their roles. So 55 wins wasn't really a shock to me. But I didn't expect them to win a title without MJ. MJ put them over the top.

And the Bulls NEVER had truly great depth on their teams. They were very top heavy with two superstars who could do it all on both sides of the rock. Then they had HOF support in Rodman or All-Star level or close to All Star kind of help in Grant and Kukoc. Pretty much all the teams the Bulls beat for rings had more talent depth on their rosters with the exception of the Jazz. Sonics, Suns, Lakers, and Blazers all had more depth than the Bulls.

[QUOTE=c5terror]Even if its rigged, if MJ play that series, they would've won just like the next season. LOL

Do you think they would still lost if MJ play that time?[/QUOTE]

MJ played in that series :lol

[QUOTE=Audio One]Game 7 of the '69 Finals, yes Chamberlain pulled for his knee, so he could rest it. Wilt wanted to come back in, yet Butch Van Brenda refused to let him back in. It's well known that Van Brenda cost LA the title that year with the move, as he was subsequently FIRED after that series.

And Russell's comment can be taken either way. The relationship between those two was strained at an all-time high by that point, and of course they wouldn't speak for YEARS afterwards.[U] He did of course admit he was wrong [/U]in the interview with Costas and Chamberlain sitting right next to him almost 30 years later[/QUOTE]
He wasn't pulled. He took himself out. Many people also believed Wilt took himself out because he didn't want to shoulder the blame for another Laker loss.

I do believe he took himself out to save face. So yes Wilt had his moment as well.

[QUOTE=bizil]The reason why is because u had an HOF coach, an HOFer in Pippen, an All Star PF in Grant, a great offensive scheme, and great defense. Kukoc also added a lot too. Pippen could fill so many holes for your team that it made life easier. From there u had an array of shooters and defenders who knew their roles. So 55 wins wasn't really a shock to me. But I didn't expect them to win a title without MJ. MJ put them over the top.

And the Bulls NEVER had truly great depth on their teams. They were very top heavy with two superstars who could do it all on both sides of the rock. Then they had HOF support in Rodman or All-Star level or close to All Star kind of help in Grant and Kukoc. Pretty much all the teams the Bulls beat for rings had more talent depth on their rosters with the exception of the Jazz. Sonics, Suns, Lakers, and Blazers all had more depth than the Bulls.[/QUOTE]
What's youre definition off depth? What do you call it when a team can lose key players and not miss a beat? Is this about scoring again? Cuz if so, I agree the Bulls didn't have six guys capable of scoring 20 pts. But what they did have is four guys that could dominate games.

Ive asked this earlier, how many teams have been able to lose their best player (and not replace them) and still be a great team?

And how many games did the Bulls win without MJ the following year? What was their win% when MJ came back?

MJ didn't make his teammates better, but with his first full season back they won a record of 72 games in the regular season.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]If I remember correct, there was a playoff game that Wilt reportedly faked an injury and said he couldn't play. Apparently, his team was losing. Wilt took himself out. His team rallied together and got back in the game. The Chamberlain wanted to come back in. Even Bill Russell publicly called him out on it. As well as his coach[/QUOTE]

You obviously didn't do any research, did you?

The Lakers trailed by 17 points early in the 4th quarter. And in a span of a little over four minutes, the Lakers had cut that 17 point deficit down to seven points, when Chamberlain came up lame, and with a litte less than six minutes still remaining. He came out for a couple of minutes, asked to go back in, was denied, and his replacement, Mel Counts blew chunks on the floor in the last two minutes, in a two point loss. His coach quit shortly thereafter because he knew he was going to be fired. Oh, and even that idiotic Van Breda Kolff admitted that Wilt had been injured.

BTW, Chamberlain shredded that same knee early in the next season, and had to have major knee surgery.

As for the Russell comment, he later apologized. BTW, Russell didn't do jacks**t in the that last quarter, and was nowhere to be found. Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in the fourth quarter, 7-2, (and two rebounds came on consecutive plays after he injured his leg)...all while playing five minutes left.

Now, I ask you...if Wilt were really faking that injury because he feared he was going to lose again, why would he wait until his team had mounted a furious rally, and with plenty of time still remaining, and with the Celtics running on fumes at the time? If he were truly going to "fake" an injury at any point in that game, it would have been late in the third period, and when he picked up his fifth personal foul, and with his team losing by 15 points. Instead, early in the 4th quarter, he got Russell to commit his fifth foul, (and of course, Russell went into hiding the rest of the game), and his defense and rebounding sparked that explosive comeback. It makes ZERO sense.


[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain[/url]

[QUOTE]
Game 7 featured a surreal scene: in anticipation of a Lakers win, Lakers owner Jack Kent Cooke had put up thousands of balloons in the rafters of the Forum in Los Angeles. This display of arrogance motivated the Celtics and angered Jerry West.[79] In that match, Chamberlain experienced his second Game 7 debacle. The Lakers trailed 91–76 after three quarters. But powered by a limping Jerry West, who played with a deep thigh bruise after Game 5, the Lakers mounted a comeback; but then Chamberlain twisted his knee after a rebound and had to be replaced by Mel Counts. With three minutes to go, and West and Counts hitting clutch baskets, the Lakers trailed 103–102. But when the Celtics tightened up their defense, the Lakers committed costly turnovers and lost the game 108–106, despite a triple-double from West, who had 42 points, 13 rebounds and 12 assists. West became the only player in NBA history to be named Finals MVP despite being on the losing team.

After the game, the key question was why Chamberlain had stayed out the final six minutes. At the time of his final substitution, he had scored 18 points (hitting 7 of his 8 shots) and grabbed 27 rebounds, significantly better than the 10 points of Mel Counts on 4-of-13 shooting.[79] To justify a late minute sub, either Chamberlain's injury had to be grave, or Van Breda Kolff's trust in Counts absolute. Among others, Bill Russell didn't believe Chamberlain's injury was grave, and openly accused him of being a malingerer: "Any injury short of a broken leg or a broken back is not enough."[79] Ironically, Van Breda Kolff came to Chamberlain's defense, insisting the often-maligned Lakers center hardly was able to move in the end.[79] He himself was perceived as "pig-headed" for benching Chamberlain, and soon resigned as Lakers coach.[79] Cherry comments that according to some journalists, that Game 7 "destroyed two careers: Wilt's because he wouldn't take over and Van Breda Kolff because he wouldn't give in".[[/QUOTE]

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Russell[/url]

[QUOTE]For most of his career, Russell was close friends with his perennial opponent Wilt Chamberlain. Chamberlain often invited Russell over for Thanksgiving dinner, and at Russell's place, conversation mostly concerned Russell's electric trains.[86] However, the close relationship ended after Game 7 of the 1969 NBA Finals, during which Chamberlain injured his knee with six minutes left and left the game. During a conversation with students, a reporter—unknown to Russell— heard Russell describe Chamberlain as a malingerer and accuse him of "copping out" of the game when it seemed that the Lakers would lose.[87] Chamberlain was livid with Russell and saw him as a backstabber.[87] Chamberlain's knee was injured so badly that he could not play the entire offseason and he ruptured it the next season. [B]The two men did not talk to each other for over 20 years until Russell met with Chamberlain personally and apologized.[/B][88] When Chamberlain died in 1999, Chamberlain's nephew said that Russell was the second person he was told to call.[6] At the eulogy, Russell stated that he did not consider Chamberlain his rival and that the pair would "be friends through eternity[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=97 bulls]He wasn't pulled. He took himself out. Many people also believed Wilt took himself out because he didn't want to shoulder the blame for another Laker loss.

I do believe he took himself out to save face. So yes Wilt had his moment as well.[/QUOTE]

This is just speculation. All the (circumstantial albeit) evidence point this way:

Jerry West was incensed by this

Van Brenda being subsequently fired immediately after the series.

The fact that he exited the game on his own (again, to rest his knee just MONTHS after surgery) doesn't negate the fact that he wanted to come back in, and the fact that he wasn't able to come in. That myth was started, and has since been carried on by Mr. Russell; doesn't help that Wilt had an unfavorable reputation in the clutch as well

Meanwhile, we have a player that led the league in FG attempts NINE times, would've been ten had he played all of '95, taking 8 shot attempts in an ECF game :confusedshrug:

Guys Jordan simply didnt impact the game like other GOATS like Magic,Kareem Wilt and LeBron..
its that simple...

[QUOTE=Marlo_Stanfield]Guys Jordan simply didnt impact the game like other GOATS like Magic,Kareem Wilt and LeBron..
its that simple...[/QUOTE]

To add

Bulls 1993 with Jordan 57-25(won championship,rigged series vs knicks,just saying), next year without him 55-27 lost to knicks in 2nd round while pippen was called for phantom foul on davis, if they advaced they would have big chance against indiana to go even to the finals.

Celtics 1969 with Russel 48-34(won championship), next year without him 34-48 didn't even enter the playoffs

Lakers 1973 with Chamberlain 60-22 lost in nba finals, next year without him 47-35, lost in the first round

Bucks 1974 with Robertson 59-23 lost in the finals, next year without him 38-44 didn't enter playoffs

Celtics 1988 with Larry Bird 57-25, lost in conference finals
Next year without him 42-40 lost 3-0 in the first round

Lakers 1991 with Magic 57-25 lost in nba finals, next year without him 43-39 lost 3-1 in the first round

And many of these were cause players were old and got injured, not in their prime because they wanted to try to play some other sports and betray their team.

And now when you see other great players impact you realize that the idea of wanting to prove how they can do it without michael and that they were playing above their limits doesn't really make sense.

So basically with Jordan 3-peat
Without Jordan 2nd round exit possible ecf if not for a bad call

:roll: stay reaching LeBron/Kobe stans

Anyway the team was lead by one of the greatest players ever, along with arguably the GOAT coach and a group of experienced championship players who wanted to prove that they were still good without mj. I don't think any mj stan would deny those bulls teams were good without him, but when he was with them he lifted the team to dynasty status.

6/6 :bowdown:

[IMG]http://doubledribble.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/michael-jordan-6-fingers.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Warfan][B]So basically with Jordan 3-peat
Without Jordan 2nd round exit possible ecf if not for a bad call[/B]

:roll: stay reaching LeBron/Kobe stans

Anyway the team was lead by one of the greatest players ever, along with arguably the GOAT coach and a group of experienced championship players who wanted to prove that they were still good without mj. I don't think any mj stan would deny those bulls teams were good without him, but when he was with them he lifted the team to dynasty status.

6/6 :bowdown:

[IMG]http://doubledribble.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/michael-jordan-6-fingers.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

I am not stan, just want to make things clear.

And you show your lack of knowledge but i am used to it when it comes to Jordan fanatics.

Next year he comes back, they play without grant and they lose 4-2 in the second round. 4-3 in the second round year before without him and next year with him they lose 4-2. :biggums:

[QUOTE=tragicbronson]I am not stan, just want to make things clear.

And you show your lack of knowledge but i am used to it when it comes to Jordan fanatics.

Next year he comes back, they play without grant and they lose 4-2 in the second round. 4-3 in the second round year before without him and next year with him they lose 4-2. :biggums:[/QUOTE]
:applause:
while jordan is the 4th best player ever, his impact on basketball games was always overrated a bit.
what was not overrated tho was his ability to decide games in the Clutch:applause:

[QUOTE=tragicbronson]To add

Bulls 1993 with Jordan 57-25(won championship,rigged series vs knicks,just saying), next year without him 55-27 lost to knicks in 2nd round while pippen was called for phantom foul on davis, if they advaced they would have big chance against indiana to go even to the finals.

Celtics 1969 with Russel 48-34(won championship), next year without him 34-48 didn't even enter the playoffs

Lakers 1973 with Chamberlain 60-22 lost in nba finals, next year without him 47-35, lost in the first round

Bucks 1974 with Robertson 59-23 lost in the finals, next year without him 38-44 didn't enter playoffs

Celtics 1988 with Larry Bird 57-25, lost in conference finals
Next year without him 42-40 lost 3-0 in the first round

Lakers 1991 with Magic 57-25 lost in nba finals, next year without him 43-39 lost 3-1 in the first round

And many of these were cause players were old and got injured, not in their prime because they wanted to try to play some other sports and betray their team.

And now when you see other great players impact you realize that the idea of wanting to prove how they can do it without michael and that they were playing above their limits doesn't really make sense.[/QUOTE]
:cheers: good post.

jordan still goat tho

[QUOTE=tragicbronson]I am not stan, just want to make things clear.

And you show your lack of knowledge but i am used to it when it comes to Jordan fanatics.

Next year he comes back, they play without grant and they lose 4-2 in the second round. 4-3 in the second round year before without him and next year with him they lose 4-2. :biggums:[/QUOTE]

Im not a jordan fanatic btw, I respect your opinion but I mean in 95 the bulls were 34-31 without him and when he came back they went 13-4 with him, and this wasn't a full seasoned mj aswell, if he had played the whole season u don't feel that they would have a good chance at beating that Orlando team? And they were an MJ assist away to Luc Longely in Game 6 of the ECSF, that was blown layup dunk by Longely from extending that series to 7. And then the following year he lead them to 72 wins. And then in 98 when pippen was out mj led the team to a 24-11 win record before he returned, and carried the team in the postseason when scottie was hurt. Not to mention he got the bulls to the ECFs twice in his earlier years with a worse pippen and grant that weren't really stars.

And my first post wasn't really directed to you, it was mainly to some other stans that posted before you, I thought you brought up some good points about those other legends and how their teams went without them. Those bulls teams were stacked and were very good without him :cheers:

[QUOTE=Warfan]Im not a jordan fanatic btw, I respect your opinion but I mean in 95 the bulls were 34-31 without him and when he came back they went 13-4 with him, and this wasn't a full seasoned mj aswell, if he had played the whole season u don't feel that they would have a good chance at beating that Orlando team? And they were an MJ assist away to Luc Longely in Game 6 of the ECSF, that was blown layup dunk by Longely from extending that series to 7. And then the following year he lead them to 72 wins. And then in 98 when pippen was out mj led the team to a 24-11 win record before he returned, and carried the team in the postseason when scottie was hurt. Not to mention he got the bulls to the ECFs twice in his earlier years with a worse pippen and grant that weren't really stars.

And my first post wasn't really directed to you, it was mainly to some other stans that posted before you, I thought you brought up some good points about those other legends and how their teams went without them. Those bulls teams were stacked and were very good without him :cheers:[/QUOTE]

Glad you understand, btw next after they lost to orlando they got Rodman who had huge impact on their record and play overall, you overlooked that. I don't want to be missunderstood, i think Jordan is one of the best players ever but not clearly the best, imagine he won that season he came back from baseball episode, imagine the hype and the media. As i said, i agree that he is up there with other great players but not that untouchable how everybody thinks. It bothers me that oftenly even if you try to bring up conversation about who is the best player you are not allowed to compare anyone to Jordan.

[QUOTE=tragicbronson]Glad you understand, btw next after they lost to orlando they got Rodman who had huge impact on their record and play overall, you overlooked that. I don't want to be missunderstood, i think Jordan is one of the best players ever but not clearly the best, imagine he won that season he came back from baseball episode, imagine the hype and the media. As i said, i agree that he is up there with other great players but not that untouchable how everybody thinks. It bothers me that oftenly even if you try to bring up conversation about who is the best player you are not allowed to compare anyone to Jordan.[/QUOTE]

:cheers: yeah and if I remember correctly grant got injured in the 96 series so it definitely helped them win aswell. I have Jordan as the GOAT but if someone said wilt or kareem or Russell was the GOAT I would respect their opinion, and wouldn't say that its a crazy claim at all. I usually don't bother with lists and just try to enjoy greatness when I see it, unlike many people on ISH who just try to put down others to prop up their idol.

Same reason Heat would get to the finals without Lebron. That team was the 1st or 2nd most stacked team of all time next to the cHeat.:facepalm

Scottie Pippen elevated his game in the regular season, and I think he finished top 3 in MVP Voting. Horace grant averaged 15/11 on 53 FG% in the regular season. BJ Armstrong also averaged career high in ppg, and he was voted by fans in his first all star game.

[img]http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/bulls/photos/pippen2_100812.jpg[/img]

teams overachieve all the time. it happens every year in every sport. the 94 bulls are one of them. it also helps that the team is a group of strong minded championship experienced veterans with something to prove, led by one of the GOAT coaches. they overachieved that year, and just like most overachieving teams, they get exposed in the playoffs. the bulls ended up losing in the second round.

the following year they came back down to earth and played to more realistic expectations. before jordan came back late in the season, the bulls were fighting for the 5th playoff spot in the east. when jordan came back, they went something like 13-4 the rest of the way. all of the sudden they went from middle of the pack to the hottest team in the league. from pretender to contender, even with jordan being rusty and having lost a step. but again, playoffs expose your weaknesses and reveal who you truly are. a rusty(athletically and mentally) jordan can get it done in the reg season. but in the playoffs, you have to be at the top of your game. the bulls lost in 6 to the magic in the second round with jordan uncharacteristically having multiple brain farts down the stretch of game 6. you can expect that kind of stuff kobe and lebron, but not jordan. it was really the only time post '89 that i can remember going, "holy *hit jordan. wtf was that?" but we all know how he bounced back and the rest is history.

They were able to win 55 games without Jordan because the team was really good. Only on ISH is it bad to have a good team around a great player lol.

1993 Bulls with Jordan = 57 wins

1994 Bulls w/o Jordan = 55 wins

GOAT gonna GOAT!! :bowdown: