I cannot take this current era of players seriously because of no hand checking

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]About the same difference between Lebron and Kobe. See what happened when Kobe handchecked LeBron in a full court press:

[url]http://youtu.be/6XxsN8jITds?t=39s[/url]

LeBron has never shown the ability to perform when the game gets even a little physical. Bruce Bowen put it on him in '07. Hell, can't seem to do much when you lay off him and dare him to shoot mid range jumpers. :lol

A guy with no/poor mid range game isn't too hard to game plan for and frustrate as Pop has shown on multiple occasions. Having the ability to slow him down physically (as shown by a broken down Bean) also helps tremendously.[/QUOTE]

Handchecked? Don't you mean Kobe locked his arm :lol

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]About the same difference between Lebron and Kobe. See what happened when Kobe handchecked LeBron in a full court press:

[url]http://youtu.be/6XxsN8jITds?t=39s[/url]

LeBron has never shown the ability to perform when the game gets even a little physical. Bruce Bowen put it on him in '07. Hell, can't seem to do much when you lay off him and dare him to shoot mid range jumpers. :lol

A guy with no/poor mid range game isn't too hard to game plan for and frustrate as Pop has shown on multiple occasions. Having the ability to slow him down physically (as shown by a broken down Bean) also helps tremendously.[/QUOTE]

You were allowed to grab hold of a players shooting arm in th 80s? :lol :roll: You guys are reaching :pimp:

[QUOTE=RoundMoundOfReb]He posted efg% which takes 3 pointers into account. [/QUOTE]

And the difference between 3 decades was a whopping 0.7% :eek:

[QUOTE]Drtg is lower (better) now than in the 90s as well[/QUOTE]

And the 60s featured defensive ratings in the 80s. All of the defenses labeled 'GOAT' from this era would be average-slightly above average in the 80s if we're using DRTG.

Are you ready to admit that the 60s-70s was BY FAR the greatest defensive era ever? DRTG says yes.

GOAT defense- 1963-64 Boston Celtics[B] 83.8 DRTG[/B] :bowdown:

[QUOTE]Handchecked? Don't you mean Kobe locked his arm[/QUOTE]

No, I mean Bean had his forearm on Bron's hip which slowed him down immensely and allowed Bean to control his movements. Bron having mediocre handling skills couldn't overcome this and could do nothing but feebly throw up an off balance shot which the broken down Bean spiked into the stands.

[QUOTE=Quickening][B]You were allowed to grab hold of a players shooting arm in th 80s?[/B] :lol :roll: You guys are reaching :pimp:[/QUOTE]
Only with knives.

[QUOTE]And the difference between 3 decades was a whopping 0.7% :eek:
[/QUOTE]

The point isn't that defenses are way better now the point is that they aren't way worse.

[QUOTE]And the 60s featured defensive ratings in the 80s. All of the defenses labeled 'GOAT' from this era would be average-slightly above average in the 80s if we're using DRTG.

Are you ready to admit that the 60s-70s was BY FAR the greatest defensive era ever? DRTG says yes.

GOAT defense- 1963-64 Boston Celtics[B] 83.8 DRTG[/B] :bowdown:[/QUOTE]

You seriously have to be a moron to compare pre-3 point line basketball to 3-point line basketball. Of course it's MUCH harder to score without the 3 point line stretching out defences.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]And the difference between 3 decades was a whopping 0.7% :eek:



And the 60s featured defensive ratings in the 80s. All of the defenses labeled 'GOAT' from this era would be average-slightly above average in the 80s if we're using DRTG.

[B]Are you ready to admit that the 60s-70s was BY FAR the greatest defensive era ever? DRTG says yes.[/B]

GOAT defense- 1963-64 Boston Celtics[B] 83.8 DRTG[/B] :bowdown:



No, I mean Bean had his forearm on Bron's hip which slowed him down immensely and allowed Bean to control his movements. Bron having mediocre handling skills couldn't overcome this and go do nothing but feebly throw up an off balance shot which the broken down Bean spiked into the stands.[/QUOTE]
Is this your first time?

[QUOTE=Quickening]Terrible rebuttal, not worth my time, /thread :pimp:[/QUOTE]

Sit your dumb ass down. You have no 'rebuttal'. Have a nice day doe :cheers:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]No, I mean Bean had his forearm on Bron's hip which slowed him down immensely and allowed Bean to control his movements. Bron having mediocre handling skills couldn't overcome this and go do nothing but feebly throw up an off balance shot which the broken down Bean spiked into the stands.[/QUOTE]

Look at 0:54 onwards of that video. Kobe's clearly holding down his arm.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Are you ready to admit that the 60s-70s was BY FAR the greatest defensive era ever? DRTG says yes.

GOAT defense- 1963-64 Boston Celtics[B] 83.8 DRTG[/B] :bowdown:[/QUOTE]
I'm still blown away that you just said this. Like, I've seen stupid comments on here, but wow.

Jordan stans have to be the most insecure people I've ever seen :lol . The only thing they have to grasp to is "hand checking" and "physical defense". Those aren't even good arguments lmao. Taking pride in not being able to play proper defense :roll:

playoff basketball is when players is allowed a lot more freedom from the refs. even in the 90's regular season games were officiated pretty iffy and ticky-tacky, but in the post season the refs usually allowed hard-nosed "no-boys-allowed" basketball, as they somewhat do even till this day.

The current hand-checking rule makes it more fair and easy to ref.

You were allowed to hand-check back in the day, but obviously you weren't allowed to actually affect the movement of the player.

Trying to judge whether or not the defender is "affecting the movement of the offensive player" is obviously a lot harder than trying to judge or not whether he simply touched the offensive player.

[QUOTE=atljonesbro]Jordan stans have to be the most insecure people I've ever seen :lol . The only thing they have to grasp to is "hand checking" and "physical defense". Those aren't even good arguments lmao. Taking pride in not being able to play proper defense :roll:[/QUOTE]


Nikka please. You mention Lebron in a thread and his stans swarm that thread with a quickness. It's like they got some kinda Lebron Signal that shines in the sky like it's Gotham City.

Jordan fans ain't worried about Bran. Dude been in the league over 10 years and ain't come close to MJ yet. And he ain't gonna get any better than he is now.

[QUOTE=KobesFinger]Hand-checking isn't something that makes it impossible to drive. The defender just isn't allowed to keep his hand on the offensive player. We could flip your argument and say Jordan is an overrated defender because he was allowed to hand check whereas the current era isn't.[/QUOTE]

Because Jordan's defense would suffer some if he couldn't handcheck, just like some of todays guys would improve.....I laugh at people who act like its no big deal....if you had a guy strong enough, u could easily turn a drive lay-up into a 10-12 foot jump shot, by pushing him off his route.

When they changed the rule, this is what occurred initially

after Rule changes 2004-2005 season as of Dec 22,2005...in the paint scoring leaders

1. Tony Parker, Spurs 328
2. Tim Duncan, Spurs 322
3. Dwyane Wade, Heat 316
4. LeBron James, Cavs 304
5. Allen Iverson, Sixers 298

Source: Elias Sports Bureau

players comments about Alvin Robertson who came into the league in 1984:

Brian Shaw: When I was a rookie and hand-checking was part of the game, I was 180 pounds. He was strong enough to hold me by my waist. I could be dribbling the ball and trying to make progress to the basket, and he could just control me with one hand. That's the kind of strength he had. You have to hope that one of your big guys comes over and sets a screen on him so you can get away from him.

Ron Harper: Alvin and I are both from Ohio. I used to play with him in the summertime. He's a defensive player that slaps, grabs, and holds. He's intense all the time. He was a great defensive player. Not a good defensive player, but a great defensive player. He was a great athlete. You have to use your teammates to run screens. That was the only way to beat him.

Or these comments after 2004 rule changes

One former Rocket can appreciate the hand-checking ban more than anyone.
"I call it the Derek Harper-on-Kenny Smith Rule," said Kenny Smith, referring to the physical abuse he took from the New York Knicks in the 1994 Finals. "Now we're back to me against you."

It matters for perimeter players...

It got really beat from like 05 through 07...and then it's come back to reality and they let the players touch each other a bit more now

It's still pretty much a joke in terms of perimeter defense, but not nearly as bad as it was a while ago.

As with all players and eras...just compare what the guys are doing to each other in this era.

It's why kobe's 06 regular season is extremely over-rated by many people here. lebron and iverson were able to go nuts from a scoring perspective as well.

you judge it by how good guys were in relation to their peers...there are just too many variables to start comparing across eras with rules changes and just how the game was played and coached...etc.

Which is why PER is actually one of the best metrics for comparing across eras if two guys play a similar amount of minutes....because it's in relation to the current league and normalizes for those averages each year

NBA.com: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

Stu Jackson: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. [B]Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.[/B]

Why would they be asking Stu Jackson this, if handchecking was abolished in 1980??

Doug Collins: "Without those rule changes, I'm sure we're not at this point," said the former player and coach-turned broadcaster.[B] "Just the no hand-checking rule alone brought so much speed and penetration and cutting back into the game. Before, if a guy tried to go through the lane, it was

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
"With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games."

During the series, Mav's owner Mark Cuban made some interesting observations about the defensive play of the Pistons (handchecking as Jordan era players new it was dead, but minimal/temporary contact was still sometimes allowed) and the 'advantage' they had over offensive perimeter players and decided a change was necesary to tip the scales in the other direction...

From his Blog Maverick weblog, Mark Cuban's article 'If It

[QUOTE=atljonesbro][B]Jordan stans have to be the most insecure people I've ever seen[/B] :lol . The only thing they have to grasp to is "hand checking" and "physical defense". Those aren't even good arguments lmao. Taking pride in not being able to play proper defense :roll:[/QUOTE]
Really? You see Lebron and Kobe stans flood this place on a day to day basis with blatant agenda threads/posts and you think Jordan fans are the most insecure?

I posted these articles that involve current player, coaches, GMs, authorities in charge of league, former players.....this doesn't mean that every player back then was some great defender because of handchecking, nor does it mean players like Kobe or Lebron would suck back then...they would simply adjust

and for the Kobestans...from their GAWD himself

"It's more of a finesse game," Bryant said before the Lakers played the Chicago Bulls on Monday. "It's more small ball, which, personally, I don't really care much for. I like kind of smash-mouth, old-school basketball because that's what I grew up watching. I also think it's much, much less physical. Some of the flagrant fouls that I see called nowadays, it makes me nauseous. You can't touch a guy without it being a flagrant foul."

[B]Bryant said that the hand-check rule that was introduced nearly a decade ago during the 2004-05 season has made it easier for less-talented players to succeed[/B]. Bryant said Lakers coach Mike D'Antoni is at least partially responsible for the shift in style of play across the league.

"I like the contact," Bryant said. "As a defensive player, if you enjoy playing defense, that's what you want. You want to be able to put your hands on a guy. You want to be able to hand check a little bit. The truth is, it makes the game [where] players have to be more skillful.[B] Nowadays, literally anybody can get out there and get to the basket and you can't touch anybody. Back then, if guys put their hands on you, you had to have the skill to be able to go both ways, change direction, post up, you had to have a mid-range game because you didn't want to go all the way to the basket because you would get knocked ass over tea kettle[/B]. So I think playing the game back then required much more skill."

[QUOTE=atljonesbro]Jordan stans have to be the most insecure people I've ever seen :lol . The only thing they have to grasp to is "hand checking" and "physical defense". Those aren't even good arguments lmao. Taking pride in not being able to play proper defense :roll:[/QUOTE]

I just posted valid facts, but you will probably ignore them, because its written right there.

[QUOTE=sportjames23]Nikka please. You mention Lebron in a thread and his stans swarm that thread with a quickness. It's like they got some kinda Lebron Signal that shines in the sky like it's Gotham City.

Jordan fans ain't worried about Bran. Dude been in the league over 10 years and ain't come close to MJ yet. And he ain't gonna get any better than he is now.[/QUOTE]
had his career high only 3 days ago lmfao:roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=DonDadda59][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs"]Jordan Rules[/URL]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wLW2UwkcG4"]Team that adopted the Jordan Rules[/URL]

Lebron in the 2010s (Post Decision): 7.8 FTA on 18.3 FGA/GM
Durant in the 2010s: 8.8 FTA on 19.3 FGA/GM
Jordan '90-first retirement: 7.9 FTA on 23.7 FGA/GM

Jordan was taking over 5 more shots per game than Lebron but getting the same amount of free throws. He took over 4 more than Durant but was getting 1 less FTA on average. All this during a more physical era. So if Jordan was 'untouchable' what does that make those guys? :confusedshrug:

And for all the talk about bigger, stronger players... how is it that a guy who couldn't do a single rep of 185 on the bench press working on his [I]fourth[/I] scorin title? :lol[/QUOTE]


Damn :applause:

Don't do 'em like that Don Dadda, winner of basketball debates.

I miss this guy...

[QUOTE=Calabis]I just posted valid facts, but you will probably ignore them, because its written right there.[/QUOTE]

The only facts you posted were the PIP leaders after the rule change and Kobe's PER. The rest were opinions of people. Just sayin.

[QUOTE=HoopsFanNumero1]Handchecked? Don't you mean Kobe locked his arm :lol[/QUOTE]


At no point in that clip was Lebron's arm locked :lol

Don't be such a homer.

04 pistons :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[QUOTE=Dbrog]The only facts you posted were the PIP leaders after the rule change and Kobe's PER. The rest were opinions of people. Just sayin.[/QUOTE]

Yeah just people...smh. people like Kobe who has played in both eras but what the **** would he know. Jason Kidd who played in both eras again he doesnt know....Stu Jackson who along with Rod Thorn engineered the change in rules and clearly states why they did it and what it helps create...Coaches who have coached in three different eras and a current player...along with PIP data showing wing players increase and leading the league in that stat....but hey ur right.

Since u know more than these guys explain this one for me:

I wonder why they needed the rule change then...it was such a ineffective tool, why would the league need to abolish it for todays super duper athletes?

[QUOTE=poido123][B]At no point in that clip was Lebron's arm locked[/B] :lol

Don't be such a homer.[/QUOTE]
Insightful as always pedo.

[IMG]http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Kobe-Lebron_zpsc8257fed.png[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Kobe-Lebron-2_zps69c82264.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=NumberSix]Insightful as always pedo.

[IMG]http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Kobe-Lebron_zpsc8257fed.png[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/Kobe-Lebron-2_zps69c82264.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

his arm wasn't locked. he had his arm against bran's guard arm since bran was attempting to use it to flail at kobe (offensive foul btw) so kobe played him tight and didn't let him breathe so that bran couldn't push off and when he elevated (not the best move) he had no wriggle room and kobe sized him up and blocked the shot.

it's called playing defense.